Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Steam R&D: => Topic started by: daves on October 02, 2018, 03:19:36 PM

Title: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 02, 2018, 03:19:36 PM
my plan is to build a working scale model of this engine run on an air pump. The problem is having to back engineer the engine from the following plans which can be seen here

https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/

The problem is not knowing where all the parts go and exactly what they are. It is like trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle with the picture face down.

the plan is to redraw the original plans in CAD then convert those drawings to a 3D print file

the engine was used in the first steam frigate Mississippi built in the US it was the one and only engine of its type used. However this type engine was common in the UK.

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 02, 2018, 03:56:47 PM
 
WoW! Interesting project!    :o

What scale / size are you planning?

 Martin

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 02, 2018, 03:59:38 PM

The major problem is that the plans are of a full size engine of 1840's design. I suggest that you find plans for a simple model engine of similar looking design and then fudge to fit and paint to match it similar to the original engine. There was a model of one of the civil war monitor engines that was done, it may give you some ideas.
Gerald. 
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 02, 2018, 04:27:44 PM

WoW! Interesting project!    :o

What scale / size are you planning?

 Martin



the scale planned is 1:32 scale at this scale I can include detail right down to the nuts and bolts
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 02, 2018, 04:41:15 PM
The major problem is that the plans are of a full size engine of 1840's design. I suggest that you find plans for a simple model engine of similar looking design and then fudge to fit and paint to match it similar to the original engine. There was a model of one of the civil war monitor engines that was done, it may give you some ideas.
Gerald.

you are correct the plans are actually of the original engine and some of them are 5 feet long.
Here is the issue the complete plan is to build the entire ship which I have about 78 drawings of the ship the engine and boiler. It is a static model about 8 feet long at 1:32 scale. To build the model as historically correct as possible I have to use the original engine drawings. What is missing is all the piping and fittings from the boiler to the engine. That is a total guess.

What is lacking are isometric drawings of the complete engine front, side, top and bottom views so there is no way of knowing what the complete engine looks like.

I am starting with the engine because that is the hardest part of this build, If I can not assemble the engine the rest of the project is a mute point. Making the engine move with an air pump was an added thought and really not part of the original building plan. That is way harder than I imagined.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 02, 2018, 04:59:04 PM
I am a model shipwright and have no problem building ships what I am not is a steam engineer
here is the base plate my question is in the center it looks like a well but what is the blue area? is that solid iron?
looking close there is a double dotted line on the top of the bed plate indicating the blue area runs down the center with the square and the circle to the right over the well

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 02, 2018, 05:17:53 PM
this seems to be what is sitting on that square over the well, I figured that because the square and the box is the same size. What does it do?
the red area in the drawing is the CAD tracing being done.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: tonyH on October 02, 2018, 09:50:40 PM
I don't know whether this gives anymore insight but Robert Napier was the one who started side lever engines for the Royal Navy in the 1830's.
Good Luck
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on October 02, 2018, 11:00:22 PM

Dave.....spend a few hours looking at the images from 'inverted beam marine steam engines'........... Derek


https://www.google.com/search?q=inverted+beam+marine+steam+engines&rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioyrGa4OjdAhWU7mEKHeKUCy0QsAR6BAgEEAE (https://www.google.com/search?q=inverted+beam+marine+steam+engines&rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioyrGa4OjdAhWU7mEKHeKUCy0QsAR6BAgEEAE)
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 02, 2018, 11:36:29 PM
 
Also this search:  https://tinyurl.com/yby94yv2
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 03, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
what struck my interest in this ship model project is the mechanical beauty.

this is an engine I went to visit the lever is at the top rather than the side but the frame work of the engine is the same style.

The most difficult aspect of this build is not finding the original plans or drawing scale modeling plans or even
3D printing the parts it is the research and finding someone who knows how this engine is built, connected to the water intake and boiler system.

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 03, 2018, 04:17:11 PM
and a few more pictures

what makes a build like this is the fine details of the nuts and bolts and the piping, the valves and the boilers.

another thought on the project is to up the scale and build a cross section of the engine room.

I did Email both the Science museum and the maritime museum in the UK because this is where the marine steam engine was invented. You would think the admiralty collection of plans would have working drawings of the early side lever engines. UNLESS all these engines were privately built and there are no drawings in museum collections. I also tried model engineering groups but it is a rare bird to find anyone who knows how to assemble such and engine circa 1840

in the US steam engine advanced at a super rate around the 1860s it was river boats and the civil war and the iron clad that pushed the technology forward.

this engine was a one off one of a kind the very first steam engine in a war ship and that is what makes it so difficult to track down information. This engine technology is basic of all steam powered engines but it is technology of the 1830s almost 25 to 30 years before the steam revolution of the 1860s

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 03, 2018, 04:40:24 PM
I don't know whether this gives anymore insight but Robert Napier was the one who started side lever engines for the Royal Navy in the 1830's.
Good Luck



Robert Napier is the man indeed NOW I wonder what happened to all his drawings and records? Are they tucked away in a museum somewhere or in private hands or are they in the admiralty plan collection?

I also wonder if the royal shipyards had a "steam crew" who built and installed the engines OR was that a job that was privately contracted out? Once all the pieces and parts were made where they sent to the shipyard?
I know from research the US Navy had no one employed by the navy to build a steam engine that was contracted out. Later as steam became a standard in ships the navy did establish a steam department.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: tonyH on October 03, 2018, 05:47:44 PM
Hi Daves,
I got the initial info from a web site Graces Guide  https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Main_Page which is a great source for archive copies of various engineering periodicals from the 1850's onwards. It's possible that there is further info in there somewhere. Also, and since they were Scottish, the data could be got through the National Archives for Scotland or Glasgow University, both of whom have lots of stuff!I'm going down to the Greenwich Archives early next month so I'll ask the question if you wish.
Tony
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 03, 2018, 07:44:59 PM
Hi Daves,
I got the initial info from a web site Graces Guide  https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Main_Page which is a great source for archive copies of various engineering periodicals from the 1850's onwards. It's possible that there is further info in there somewhere. Also, and since they were Scottish, the data could be got through the National Archives for Scotland or Glasgow University, both of whom have lots of stuff!I'm going down to the Greenwich Archives early next month so I'll ask the question if you wish.
Tony

the link to the original plans I posted at the beginning are all public domain so feel free to copy any of them as a reference to show.
if you would inquire as to where one would get information on how these early gothic engines were built and how they operated that is the plumbing to and from a boiler.

I am working on the CAD modeling plans and once I have them all drawn I will be glad to share them.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 03, 2018, 07:48:14 PM
in the picture DS4 I wonder if that box the engine is sitting on is a water tank.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on October 03, 2018, 08:29:48 PM
there must be some similar engines knocking about in some of the steam museums around and about and the valve gear cant be that different, from that valve gear the steam piping should be able to be worked out, like this one at a local steam railway
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on October 03, 2018, 08:34:55 PM
have you thought of searching patents so see if there are any by napier for this engine, or the steam valve gear
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on October 03, 2018, 08:40:14 PM
or through stock images eg https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-19c-engineering-drawing-145-hp-marine-steam-engine-caird-co-greenock-123157029.html

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: JimG on October 04, 2018, 11:39:36 AM
There is a set of preserved side lever engines, ex tug, at Renfrew, near Glasgow. You could try getting in touch with the Renfrew museum to see if they have any details.Also the National Maritime Museum used to have a side lever paddle engine on display beside the hull of a paddle tug. Unfortunately not there now after 'modernisation''. You could however try getting in touch with them as they should have detail although drawings seem to be rather expensive.
Jim
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on October 04, 2018, 01:34:36 PM
another thought would be to see if they have any plans at the former naval dockyard at Chatham (UK)
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: tonyH on October 05, 2018, 02:01:28 PM
This might give impetus to the working side :-))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-LAOhWedgw
[/size][/color]
[/size]Tony[/color]
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 05, 2018, 03:44:02 PM
I have 90% of the main gothic style frame drawn in autocad and almost ready for 3D modeling. When I get the model ready of the frame I will post it.

now I am working on the condenser first I need to study it and understand it then from the drawings figure out how to assemble it

that well on the bottom of the bed plate is called the hot well and that is where the condensed water goes and from there pumped back to the boiler.

X sections of the first steam ships is quite fascinating it kind of mashes "steampunk" with model ship building it also takes model ship building to a level of model engineering. love it   %%
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: southsteyne2 on October 06, 2018, 12:28:20 AM
Quite fascinating just wondering what material will you use ?
CheersJohn
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 06, 2018, 02:52:19 PM
Quite fascinating just wondering what material will you use ?
CheersJohn


as I draw the engine I keep jumping from one idea to another for example

if I can get ALL the inner parts correct I thought of a clear resin This would be a larger scale X section of the ship and I could use that fake smoke model railroaders use or a vaper liquid and blow it through the engine to look like steam. quite an ambitious idea.

3D printing offers all kinds of materials even tough enough resins and plastics I could actually make the engine and paddle wheel move
with compressed air

or the easy way and just 3D print a static hollow model just for looks.

there are no models of these gothic style engines because I think years ago there was no way of producing the elaborate columns, arches and moldings without a model, a mold and casting. Today with 3D modeling and printing it is now possible. Now once the parts have been modeled a print can be done and used as a master to make a mold and cast the parts.

it is typical to see the same sailing ships done over and over while the early steam ships were overlooked. My guess is because you had to be a model engineer to machine the parts. Now kits can actually be made for static engines and boilers and a growing interest in this era of ships is coming about.
I have been at this project for a year now and have not made the first part yet.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: tonyH on October 06, 2018, 10:37:39 PM
Hi Daves,
Just thinking whether there would be need for weight in the piston to create enough inertia for full rotation, bearing in mind that the originals would have worked with very low pressure and relatively slow rotational speed.

 :-))
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 08, 2018, 04:03:40 PM
As I research and draw the engine and boiler for the steam ship Mississippi I came to the conclusion I will have to research and study the steam engine before I can draw and build one. It stands to reason the more input I have the more information I can collect so I contacted adminstrator on this forum as well as the moderator of another forum asking if I can link this topic on both forums.

 There is no reason to build and maintain two separate topics It makes more sense to link them.

I would like to invite you to take a walk about in a boiler graveyard over at the other site here is the link




https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/page-2#post-41960
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 19, 2018, 04:22:36 PM
I finished the CAD work for the gothic style frame of the engine and posted more images at this link


https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/page-3#post-42771


now I am moving on to the CAD work for the condenser but it has me stumped right now as to how it goes together 
I will post my drawings as soon as they are done.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on October 19, 2018, 09:44:03 PM
Dave...I see in the alternate WEB site you ask ......'what is a P Block?'....and the resulting comment of a Pillow Block


I believe an earlier definition or of a P Block terminology was a Plummer Block......further I suggest the bearing housings you have drawn were originally cast as Plummer blocks....and long before someone converted dimensions to the ISO Standard referenced


One of the main differences between the P Bolcks is that the Pillow variety are usually centered around the shaft axis, whereas Plummer had upper and lower elements that had little resemblance with matters of symmetry ...or exactly as the original Drawings depict


Remember these structures featured heavily of Gothic Design   


Derek
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 20, 2018, 05:03:58 PM
Dave...I see in the alternate WEB site you ask ......'what is a P Block?'....and the resulting comment of a Pillow Block


I believe an earlier definition or of a P Block terminology was a Plummer Block......further I suggest the bearing housings you have drawn were originally cast as Plummer blocks....and long before someone converted dimensions to the ISO Standard referenced


One of the main differences between the P Bolcks is that the Pillow variety are usually centered around the shaft axis, whereas Plummer had upper and lower elements that had little resemblance with matters of symmetry ...or exactly as the original Drawings depict


Remember these structures featured heavily of Gothic Design   


Derek


on some of the drawings the blocks are referred to as just a P block

the original drawings are difficult to see but here is the original

on the plan the blocks are called pillow blocks but your right there is a big difference  between a pillow block and a plummer block.

I do not know if back in 1840s the term was interchangeable

I did post a few pictures of these type of blocks at this link

https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/page-3#post-42774

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on October 20, 2018, 05:27:33 PM
I am guessing but plummer blocks may have had a white metal or lead insert, which would have formed the bearing surface, and been hand scraped to get the correct seating of the shaft in the bearing - plummer as in lead?
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 20, 2018, 05:28:35 PM
the drawings have 4 different blocks I have to figure out where they go

the first says P block the other one does not say anything

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 20, 2018, 05:42:54 PM
I am guessing but plummer blocks may have had a white metal or lead insert, which would have formed the bearing surface, and been hand scraped to get the correct seating of the shaft in the bearing - plummer as in lead?

from what I photographed in the Ford collection there seems to have been a brass bearing surface but in the second photograph you can see a light colored insert at the top of the shaft

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on October 20, 2018, 05:52:07 PM
on the two pictures there is a brass insert or bearing surface

this block and shaft is quite different it has this big split ring around the shaft

I wish I would have taken a picture of the back side to see if this ring goes all the way through the block and what stops it from spinning around with the shaft.

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on October 20, 2018, 11:49:29 PM
Do not be put off by the irregular octagional shaped bearing element blocks.....these were cast from the RED copper metal family.....down to Muntz Metal or a even softer from the White Metal variety


So,yes......after casting the blocks would have been lathe bored & then hand scraped....again we must remember that these new steam engine machines were to be melded with the accepted Gothic constructional[/size]  architectural design

[/size]Imagine today's costs .....this style of design must have created a very high demand for qualified Journeyman of the Pattern Making and Metal Casting Trades 

[/size]Derek
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 06, 2018, 03:54:53 PM
I have been busy with CAD drawing this engine and finished the condenser drawings. NOW! the problem is how in the world does it go together
I do know it goes in the blue area

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 06, 2018, 03:57:35 PM
here is the master drawing of the condenser and a series of closeups

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on November 06, 2018, 08:05:20 PM
Dave, forgive me...but do you not now have a series of layered tracings taken from an original hand drawing?....


If this is the case, does each sub component tracing on another layer confirm all dimensions of the sub component?


So as such...I wasn't aware  that CAD packages have an auto assembly tool from tracings


Derek
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 07, 2018, 03:52:23 PM
I do not understand your post



Dave, forgive me...but do you not now have a series of layered tracings taken from an original hand drawing?....

no layered tracings but what you see are tracings from the original and are all scaled to one another

If this is the case, does each sub component tracing on another layer confirm all dimensions of the sub component?

each component on the original had dimensions drawn in so I used those dimensions to size each part so everything drawn is now the same scale.


So as such...I wasn't aware  that CAD packages have an auto assembly tool from tracings

I do not know what "auto assembly tool" is somehow all the parts fit together to make a condenser

the original look like this and I used the dimensions on the plans are redrew the pARTS




Derek
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on November 07, 2018, 04:36:06 PM
put the different drawings into a single drawing, on different layers (maybe think of saving each as a block) then you can adjust the relative positions quite easily by turning layers on and off and moving the parts on one layer relative to another)

Of course as a professional CAD draughtsman, I would probably have initially drawn up the parts using the drawings as a guide, but creating the CAD in 3d to start with, then with the individual components all saved as separate blocks, juggled the parts around until they fitted properly. (but that is me being a smartie pants)
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 07, 2018, 07:18:10 PM
and the smartie pants are the people I hope to meet

I can send anyone who wants a copy of the CAD drawing a DWG or DXF file if you want to just fiddle with it and try to put it together or do a 3D file
 
I have the main frame and the condenser files done and working on the cylinder
it may take a village to build this engine I am not smart enough with steam engines to do it alone
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 07, 2018, 07:23:04 PM
3D modeling is an art unto itself  I think I get what your saying that is to create the parts in 3D and try to fit it all together brilliant!

like the frame columns

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on November 07, 2018, 07:39:09 PM
yes, thats the idea
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on November 07, 2018, 07:49:05 PM
basically you create building blocks and then merge them together to form your finished object
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 08, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
my problem is I am OK with cad drafting not a pro just at a hobby level.  I did have a pro who would take my CAD drawings and redo them as 3D models but lo and behold that person is no longer available. So at this time I am at a stand still until I can find someone willing to create a 3D model from the CAD drawings.

I will carry on with drawing the parts and hopeful someone with an interest in this old gothic engine will attempt the 3D model.

my skills with 3D modeling is with a simple program Google sketchup
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 19, 2018, 03:13:06 PM
a progress report on the CAD drawing

so far I finished the main frame, the cylinder, the condenser and the air pump

I am wondering if these engines had just one lever or was there a lever on both sides of the frame?

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on November 19, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
Dave.......


1. the image you are working on [progress3] is an inverted beam engine.........these [usually] have a symmetric pair of 'outer' lower beams driving a top mounted crankshaft


2. the gloss white images from a restored engine with the beautiful exampled Gothic cast entablature and structure is of single 'central' upper beam engine driving a lower mounted crankshaft


So to answer your question, as far as I can see......yes....your design example will have a balanced symmetric pair of 'outer' lower beams driving a top mounted shaft

Derek
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: ooyah/2 on November 19, 2018, 11:59:55 PM
a progress report on the CAD drawing

so far I finished the main frame, the cylinder, the condenser and the air pump

I am wondering if these engines had just one lever or was there a lever on both sides of the frame?




Daves,


Here is a link to side lever engines (  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_steam_engine ) which may be of some help to you.


 can't prove it but I am sure that the engine has only one beam per side, "Hence a side lever engine."


The engine shown at Dumbarton is only about 20 miles from me but not in a place that I visit often, it sits outside Denny's experimental tank, at one time the longest in Britain if not the world and can be visited anytime that one is in the area, this tank was used by Barnes Wallis to experiment with his design for the bouncing bomb used by the Dam Buster patrol during the WW 11 bombing raids.


I hope this is of help to you.


George.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: ooyah/2 on November 20, 2018, 12:04:37 PM

Dave,
(can't prove it but I am sure that the engine has only one beam per side, "Hence a side lever engine." )


OOPS wrongly worded,


I should have  said , Only one beam on the engines "  side.


George.

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: Treble on November 21, 2018, 05:49:45 PM
Dave , There is a side lever engine at Markham Grange Steam Museum , Doncaster , England . They have a web site , where you will find pictures and a description of its working . Hope this helps a little . Sorry , I am not computor literate , and so cant post a link . Trevor .
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: ooyah/2 on November 21, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Hi Treble,
After looking up your connection to Grange Steam museum it quite clearly states that there are two beams on a lever engine, one on each side.
Thanks for the link as I always assumed that there was only one beam on one side.


George
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: JimG on November 22, 2018, 01:14:25 PM
Hi Treble,

Thanks for the link as I always assumed that there was only one beam on one side.


George
Paddle tugs with side lever engines often could split the engine into two halves to give independant paddle drive. In this case each half had a single lever. the cranks could then be recoupled to give the full engine.
Jim
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 22, 2018, 02:47:00 PM
Dave , There is a side lever engine at Markham Grange Steam Museum , Doncaster , England . They have a web site , where you will find pictures and a description of its working . Hope this helps a little . Sorry , I am not computor literate , and so cant post a link . Trevor .

thanks mate I found the site
I got a real head scratcher at this point of the build so I will need to make a few contacts with museums to see if I can get some answers.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on November 22, 2018, 02:50:15 PM
when you look at this engine it is one complete engine but the Mississippi steam frigate had 2 of these side by side.

did the shaft for the paddle wheels run as one continues shaft OR did these engines run independent of one another?

is there some sort of listing of all steam engine museums and clubs in England?
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: Treble on November 25, 2018, 11:15:36 PM
Dave's , If you care to email your address details to me at t.drabble@btinternet.com then I will forward on to you my copy of this year's Steam Herritage Guide which I think you will find of interest . Trevor.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: Treble on November 25, 2018, 11:21:23 PM
Steves , If you email your address details to me at t.drabble@btinternet.com then I will send you my copy of this year's Steam Herritage Guide which I think you will find of use . Trevor 
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 03, 2018, 04:14:56 PM

and now for a sneak peek at the progress of the 3d model of the frame



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on December 03, 2018, 04:39:14 PM
thats looking really nice, you are getting along quite well, theres a good few hours work in that 3d model, but well worth it.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 03, 2018, 05:02:40 PM

part by part will be created as a 3D model then I will try to assemble the engine. Still many parts I do not know what they are or how it all goes together. hope by seeing the engine in 3D I can rely on logic.


once the engine is done then on to a cross section of the ships engine room.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: flashtwo on December 16, 2018, 08:15:43 PM
 Hi Dave,
 
I’m very interested in your project, since I’m in the middle of designing and building a side lever engine for the Paddle Tug Monarch (1833).
 
One of my problems was deciding whether to use parallel motion linkages or the more simple cross-head guides.
 
The only description I’ve found of the Monarch’s side lever engine was from “British Steam Tugs” by P.N. Thomas (1983)  where he describes seeing a contemporary model at Newcastle Museum with “…a cover over the crosshead slides “ (page 15). This was only an assumption on his part and the evidence for parallel motion is with the contemporary engine that you are modelling and also a model of the PS. Ruby (River Thames, 1836) which shows parallel motion. See http://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/marine_engines2.html (http://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/marine_engines2.html)
 
 
As you can see from the photograph below, I have made progress in determining the linkage geometry;
see Mayhem Thread  (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55112.0.html)https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55112.0.html[/url]
 
I’m very interested in the “p block 1.jpg” image and comments particularly the description “P.Block for parallel motion back shaft” which I think is what I’ve seen described as the “Bridle”.
 
As you may have noticed with these old engines that the very fine adjustment of the linkages was with metal wedges at the unions – it must have been a very tiring and tedious process lifting the piston up and down and banging the wedges until the vertical alignment was achieved.
 
The engine as it exists is not at all elegant, but the plan is to bush out the linkages with phosphor bronze, since it will be a hard working engine on steam in a 6 foot model of the Monarch.
 
I also plan to replace items of the engine with “architectural” Corinthian columns once I’m satisfied that I have a working engine.
 
The contemporary model of the Monarch, mentioned above, I finally managed to locate at the Science Museum (London), and which they photographed and sent me (at a price!) three very good images.
 
Ian
 
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 18, 2018, 05:06:56 PM

I will post some original drawings for the engine linkage I am modeling but for now here are some closeup details of the frame


Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 20, 2018, 03:15:32 PM

here is the assembled frame for the engine. Now comes the bed plate, cylinder, condenser and pumps



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on December 20, 2018, 08:31:46 PM
Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting  :D  .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms


Just looking back at the Drawing for the Parallel Motion support bearing plate we see the 4 base bolts were 1 1/8" and elongated for adjustment and the top cap 2 bolts were 1 1/4"


In the representations, the scale size of the 4 base bolt heads appear a little undersized...[1"?]


The other question is ....the detail drawing of the Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?

Derek



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 21, 2018, 04:13:03 PM

Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting 
[/size][/color]
  .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms



each of those frames were cast in one piece and their weight was about 18 tons.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 21, 2018, 04:24:53 PM

Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting  :D  .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms



Just looking back at the Drawing for the Parallel Motion support bearing plate we see the 4 base bolts were 1 1/8" and elongated for adjustment and the top cap 2 bolts were 1 1/4"

in the original drawings the bolt holes are drawn in, because I planned on 3D printing parts bolted together rather than show a hole I drew a bolt head. There would have been a slot showing along side the bolt head but that detail would be so tiny I just eliminated the slot.


In the representations, the scale size of the 4 base bolt heads appear a little undersized...[1"?]


now that you pointed that out I agree so that is something I will go back and correct


The other question is ....the detail drawing of the Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?




I pondered that and could not quite decide what to do about it. My first idea was to create a non working dummy model with parts 3D printed in place like the pillow blocks. Yes you are correct they were keyed into their bed plates. That seam between parts would be so fine you would not see it at the scale of the model so I eliminated the seam. THEN! I was approached by a model engineer and he suggested I create all the parts separate and down to exact detail so a working model can be built from the drawings and 3D model. OK that can indeed be done except for one little flaw in the idea. I am not a steam engineer and I am guessing and interrupting the original plans best I can. I have a whole lot of parts I am totally clueless what the are and how they fit into the engine.
for now I will try and create a dummy engine and post it with hopes people will step forward and point out corrections and offer suggestions. This project can be refined to an actual working model with a little help.


Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 21, 2018, 04:58:30 PM

it would be possible for a model steam engineer to recreate a steam engine built in 1839 right down to the very size of the nuts and bolts IF such information was available. Well your in luck because that information is available what is not available is the knowhow to actually build it for me anyhow.






Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 21, 2018, 05:27:31 PM
The other question is ....the detail drawing of the
Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on December 21, 2018, 08:23:44 PM
All of this makes perfect sense Dave


It certainly is advantageous to have access to the Table of Scale Drawings for each type of bolted arrangement. Being in scale....just understand  the stud size, then copy the relationship scale x the nut = AF size and height.....top face profile......washer thickness & diameter etc etc


[just to confuse  {-)  the top Table depicts nuts as the hex point to point, the second table depicts the nuts in across the flats]


The fitment of the Parallel Motion Shaft mounting Plate is absolutely typical of the ingenuity of these Designers ......the base of the block is flat, the frame has a 'cast in'' then machined set of relief pads.....5 rectangular width wise finger pads [this makes the machining of each support plate surface much easier and in ensuring flatness - it would not be uncommon to understand that each of those 5 finger pads were hand scraped & blued to ensure accuracy [flatness, squareness, triangulation between each other pivot axis in the linkage or arm]


The frames also has width wise support up-sweeps cast in at each end of the support plate area. The plate has 1 1/8" elongated holes, and whilst not shown in the Drawing....final during final assembly and positioning of the PMS mounting.....steel 'Keeps' [full height x width sized packing pieces] would have fitted between the ends of the PMS mounting plate and the corresponding cast support up-sweep


We can see, & naturally the identical arrangement would be applicable to the top/main engine shaft bearing block to frame interface


The engineering philosophy in this engineering was carried over and used in military [Naval] armaments in a parallel time frame with the building of these machines................... Derek   
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 22, 2018, 04:22:29 PM

next phase of the drawing is adding these parts, one problem at this point are the green parts on the left



I do not know for sure where they go or how they attach to the engine I am taking a guess and say they sit on top of the purple part which on the original plans sheet it is titled pumps.


I did notice the purple part does line up with the P block on top of the frame hum interesting
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 22, 2018, 04:25:22 PM

here is a gothic engine with parts that look like the green parts in the drawing. logic dictates these have something to do with the steam going into the cylinder and out of the cylinder.


Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 22, 2018, 04:28:24 PM
as I draw the parts in detail I will post the 2D CAD drawings with the original drawing. Once the CAD drawings for these parts are done then they will be created as a 3D model and finally assembled into the frame and on the bed plate
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 22, 2018, 07:10:12 PM

starting with the cylinder the first thing to look at is the original sheet of drawings



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 22, 2018, 07:14:41 PM

the original drawings are quite large 4 feet long and 70 gigabites in size way to big to post because you can not read them


what I did was take the original and crop the drawings down into smaller files so lets take a look at what has been drawn.



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 22, 2018, 07:18:20 PM

so those are the drawings of the cylinder now on another sheet17 I found the top and one unknow drawing so lets take a look at those



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on December 22, 2018, 07:25:05 PM

go back to post number 46 and in the lower right corner is a cross section drawing of the bottom of the cylinder, note how it is drawn


now look at the final CAD drawings of the assembled cylinder


the first drawing is the bottom flipped over the second assembly drawing shows the bottom as drawn, which way should it go?


also here is the layout of the cylinder drawn on the bed plate and it does show the 4 tabs from the bottom drawing.


if you use the first assembly those tabs will sit flat on the bed plate
if you flip the bottom like it is drawn there will be a gap between the tabs on the bottom of the cylinder and the bed plate.

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: southsteyne2 on December 22, 2018, 08:29:08 PM
Watching with great interest as I have a friend who does 3d printing and casting ,and I presume you may be thinking the same so here is a vid of a working model  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBfHfl4z_bg
Cheers and merry Christmas and happy new year to allJohn
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:28:01 PM

more work has been done on building the 3d engine model


here is the bed plate the engine sits on



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:31:01 PM

with the bed plate now the frame can be joined to the plate



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:35:13 PM

there is an error in the design the well under the plate is where the water goes once it is condensed then from there it is pumped back to the boiler. As you can see the square between the P blocks where the condenser goes is solid. I don't think that is correct. to the right is the circle were the pump bolts to the plate again there is no access to the water well. oops!



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:36:50 PM

back to the drawing board to see what went wrong
first looking at the original 1839 drawing



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:39:11 PM

I think this is how it should be


the blue areas are open to the well and the gray areas are where the condenser and pump bolt to



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:42:04 PM

my first thought was the yellow area is open but on second thought the light green areas between the condenser and pump would be open. so I am going back to the other setup of 2 openings under the condenser and pump


any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:46:11 PM

one more thing to ponder those P-blocks are what the shaft for the lever fits into. There is a lever on both sides of the engine. Between these P-blocks is the condenser. So the question is does the shaft run from P-block to P-block and through the condenser OR is the shaft short and just rides in the P-block?



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 05:52:57 PM

the engines are mounted in the hull sitting on beams that run along the side of the bedplate then the water well sits between these beams.



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 16, 2019, 06:03:13 PM

the reason I question the lever shaft is because there are circles drawn on the sides of the condenser
and they line up perfect with the P-blocks



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on January 16, 2019, 09:16:12 PM
that does appear that the shaft runs through a tube that spans the condenser, the section through shows that tube.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on January 16, 2019, 09:38:47 PM
Dave...I believe your 'unknown part' may be a 75" diameter oval profiled in height, cast, hollow valve disk with a circular seal cavity at top & bottom


Reference is made to a Cast Iron composite material and cut diagonally as is a cast iron piston ring to fit and seal from these cavities



This Drawing is references as Section B , however shows no porting. An additional sectional Drawing of this disk would confirm porting functionality


It could be that this rotary disk is the main admission valve for the cylinder...although the complexity baffles


The top face of this valve disk matches the 75" diameter and curvature of the cylinder cap which has the fixed admission cast port 


Sheet 7 nominates the technical term  Birds Eye view  O0  of the cylinder bottom..... [Elias W Copeland s Steam Engineer - New York 31/12/1839]




It would be interesting to see a full size copy of Sheet 7, and compare to Sheet 17


Derek
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on January 16, 2019, 10:21:38 PM
All of the words here are legible  %)  and sort of make sense, although it would be interesting to see.... DD Composition Listings

Is the upper and lower profile of the valve disk a uniform 3 1/32" on a 75" ellipse?
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 17, 2019, 06:38:57 PM

ok a little fiddle about with the bed plate and here is a corrected version with the openings for the condenser and pump


what makes this project interesting is the engineering challenges, you think hum there is a "well" how does the water get from the condenser into the well and back out to the boiler. It needs access.


with 3d modeling you can see the parts inside and out and all around this gives you the ideas how it all might work.





oops again I just noticed there are NO bolt holding the P block to the plate and no bolts on top of the P block
now it is time to move on to the cylinder this is going to be tough job figuring it out


Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on January 21, 2019, 12:17:26 AM
Dave....spent a few hours last night looking at the Drawing files posted via PM......


Clearly there must have been quite a number of additional Drawings associated with the Series No 17 showing both Elevation and End Elevation sections through the assembled engine

It is possible that these were missed or omitted during archieving ...however this remains unknown


There is a Drawing of components that relate to a Steam Locomotive wheel drive in amongst the Side Lever engine parts

So, about the only additional offering is that this 75" diameter contoured Disk Plate is actually married with an 11 1/2 " x 8 1/2" diameter, tapered rotary Plug Valve

There are a number of individual Plug Valve [plugs] shown, however I did not find a generic plug with a dimension table

It is more than fair to acknowledge I am still more than a little lost >>:-( with some of these engine parts, however will continue to watch the thread with great interest

Derek
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 21, 2019, 04:00:17 PM
when the plans were found some of the drawings were far to delicate to un roll and copy and some were missing.
When the navy built the first 2 steam war ships they used a vertical gothic style in one ship and a horizonal engine in the other. The navy favored the horizonal type engines so the one being modeled is a one off one of a kind. However, in England this type of engine was quite common but finding plans proved to be very difficult. Here in the states there is one example in the Henry Ford museum built the same year as the one being modeled.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 21, 2019, 04:10:57 PM

the historical report on the Henry ford engine



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 21, 2019, 04:15:37 PM
Because the engine drawings are incomplete there is no way to historically reproduce the engine exactly as built. The next best thing is to model what pieces and parts that did survive and fill in the blanks with engineering technology of the period by using other examples.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 22, 2019, 03:14:05 PM

here are two drawings from the set



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 22, 2019, 03:17:09 PM

taking a look at the museum engine it looks like those drawings posted above could be these parts just a different style OR NOT


Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 22, 2019, 03:30:18 PM

here is another engine used as a pump dated circa 1830s  it is the same basic setup 2 pillars a horizonal shaft and levers



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 29, 2019, 07:36:39 PM

work continues and the cylinder has been created and set in place.



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on January 29, 2019, 07:38:17 PM


more views
you can see in these views where the in and out ports for the steam will bolt to. It is that long open area at the top

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 02, 2019, 09:50:22 PM

I have so many parts to this engine I am thinking maybe a diorama of the ship under construction showing the engines parts being assembled.
Then the thought occurs to me how was such an engine built in 1839? Just the frames were 18 tons and 20 feet long how were these stood up on end, placed on the 10 ton bedplate sitting on the floor timbers of the hull?


I thought hum maybe a gantry but that would just span the hull so how did the gantry pick up and move the parts? a crane maybe? but it has to be moveable.
where there steam cranes in use in shipyards in 1839? or was the entire job done by ropes and pully system?


any ideas from the crowd?
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on February 02, 2019, 10:25:38 PM

Research  Dockyard Shearlegs.............capable of lifting 100's of tons at the turn of the Century


https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2Fimages%2FHarbour%2FA_Frame.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2FHarbourSheerlegs.htm&docid=aaNPpoSAZdHGVM&tbnid=cwuV57DSrXX6SM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4..i&w=600&h=470&bih=475&biw=1434&q=ship%20building%20shearlegs&ved=0ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4&iact=mrc&uact=8 (https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2Fimages%2FHarbour%2FA_Frame.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2FHarbourSheerlegs.htm&docid=aaNPpoSAZdHGVM&tbnid=cwuV57DSrXX6SM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4..i&w=600&h=470&bih=475&biw=1434&q=ship%20building%20shearlegs&ved=0ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4&iact=mrc&uact=8)


https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&q=ship+building+shearlegs&tbm=isch&source=hp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidqMK8ip7gAhXbknAKHYwsBCAQsAR6BAgEEAE (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&q=ship+building+shearlegs&tbm=isch&source=hp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidqMK8ip7gAhXbknAKHYwsBCAQsAR6BAgEEAE)
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 03, 2019, 12:01:15 AM

thank you Derek never in 100 years would i have come up with the term "shearlegs"


hum?? interesting indeed shearlegs is the answer to lifting heavy things, now to ponder moving heavy things, the shearlegs are stationary so the parts have to be moved to the shearlegs. Unless the shearlegs rotated then it could be constructed next to the hull, rotate and pick up the frames then rotate them over the hull timbers and set them down.


it does make engineering logic to lay the keel set the floor timbers in place and construct the engine, then built the hull around the engine rather than build the hull first and lift up and lower the engine into the hull.  But somehow the shearleg crane has to swing and pick the parts up off the ground and place them on the hull floors.
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on February 03, 2019, 04:12:52 AM
Dave........the following image & text [Belfast Ireland] answers some of your questions


I had the advantage & privilege in part of my working life, as being employed by our Australian Department of Defence Navy, located at our Fleet Base, Garden Island Sydney


In the history of GI, we see she still had a large 'pair of shear legs' as late as 1927.....


Derek ....[it was said that Above Weapons Foreman don't actually work  {-) ] :P
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 05, 2019, 03:29:33 PM

check out this crane in the foundry where they are casting the cylinder pretty nice


I am still searching for better drawings of how shipyard cranes shearlegs and derricks work they had to swing side to side to pick stuff up off the ground and swing it in place.



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 07, 2019, 02:54:59 PM

I would think a crane of some sort had to swing to the side pick up a part and swing it over the hull. This system would need a slewing platform of some sort.


any ideas?
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: derekwarner on February 07, 2019, 10:40:43 PM

Dave......the motions of Sheer Legs were limited to lifting, luffing & lowering.....due to the design limitations [of stability] larger variations were fixed and did not slew


Reading of references has noted that to attain a placement of a load, it could be necessary to move the vessel in a longitudinal plane [fwd to aft] under the Sheer Leg centre or axis to gain a tru[ish] vertical lift or lowering


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDUvN2C8Wa4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDUvN2C8Wa4)

The huge Sheer Leg set at Garden Island were not for ship construction, but ship maintenance...so it was  a relatively simple method of moving the ship along the wharf to gain that tru[ish] vertical lift

[and all this time I had been incorrectly thinking >>:-( of two items in [shear]
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 08, 2019, 12:56:42 AM

I found these



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 08, 2019, 02:41:52 PM


I actually found this it is from the very company that built the engine being modeled here


it shows 3 different cranes in use

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 08, 2019, 02:53:41 PM

after watching the shear leg video I can see how it would work lifting heavy engine parts and placing them in the hull.


here is another type crane that seemed to be everywhere
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 03:56:01 PM

a progress report on the modeling of the engine


here is the condenser and cooling tower modeled so lets take a walk around it

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 03:57:36 PM

getting up close



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 04:01:03 PM

there is a hole that runs through it from side to side  and a few openings I guess for steam to enter the condenser and cooling water inlet and outlet and an opening for an air pump with a couple extra at this time unknown openings like in the cooling tower.



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 04:02:03 PM

the cooling tower is bolted to the top of the condenser



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 04:59:30 PM

ok so lets fit the condenser into the engine


it sets right over the opening in the bedplate well



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 05:01:18 PM

and some more views



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 05:03:23 PM
that hole is a tunnel for the lever shaft to run from pillow block to pillow block
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on February 22, 2019, 05:05:24 PM

and finally an overhead view which a light went off and I think the cooling tower is in the wrong place it should be turned 90 drgrees and set at the back of the condenser. Humm I will post a correction later



Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: grendel on February 22, 2019, 07:46:45 PM
nice
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: KNO3 on February 27, 2019, 09:46:29 PM
Beautiful!
Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on March 11, 2019, 02:07:19 PM

a little more progress on the engine



the air pump has been modeled  I do change the rendering just for the heck of it so here is the air pump which bolts to the side of the condenser.
there has to be a hole in the top for the shaft will do that later

Title: Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
Post by: daves on March 11, 2019, 02:11:59 PM

so now the air pump gets bolted into the engine