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my plan is to build a working scale model of this engine run on an air pump. The problem is having to back engineer the engine from the following plans which can be seen here
https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/
The problem is not knowing where all the parts go and exactly what they are. It is like trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle with the picture face down.
the plan is to redraw the original plans in CAD then convert those drawings to a 3D print file
the engine was used in the first steam frigate Mississippi built in the US it was the one and only engine of its type used. However this type engine was common in the UK.
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WoW! Interesting project! :o
What scale / size are you planning?
Martin
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The major problem is that the plans are of a full size engine of 1840's design. I suggest that you find plans for a simple model engine of similar looking design and then fudge to fit and paint to match it similar to the original engine. There was a model of one of the civil war monitor engines that was done, it may give you some ideas.
Gerald.
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WoW! Interesting project! :o
What scale / size are you planning?
Martin
the scale planned is 1:32 scale at this scale I can include detail right down to the nuts and bolts
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The major problem is that the plans are of a full size engine of 1840's design. I suggest that you find plans for a simple model engine of similar looking design and then fudge to fit and paint to match it similar to the original engine. There was a model of one of the civil war monitor engines that was done, it may give you some ideas.
Gerald.
you are correct the plans are actually of the original engine and some of them are 5 feet long.
Here is the issue the complete plan is to build the entire ship which I have about 78 drawings of the ship the engine and boiler. It is a static model about 8 feet long at 1:32 scale. To build the model as historically correct as possible I have to use the original engine drawings. What is missing is all the piping and fittings from the boiler to the engine. That is a total guess.
What is lacking are isometric drawings of the complete engine front, side, top and bottom views so there is no way of knowing what the complete engine looks like.
I am starting with the engine because that is the hardest part of this build, If I can not assemble the engine the rest of the project is a mute point. Making the engine move with an air pump was an added thought and really not part of the original building plan. That is way harder than I imagined.
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I am a model shipwright and have no problem building ships what I am not is a steam engineer
here is the base plate my question is in the center it looks like a well but what is the blue area? is that solid iron?
looking close there is a double dotted line on the top of the bed plate indicating the blue area runs down the center with the square and the circle to the right over the well
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this seems to be what is sitting on that square over the well, I figured that because the square and the box is the same size. What does it do?
the red area in the drawing is the CAD tracing being done.
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I don't know whether this gives anymore insight but Robert Napier was the one who started side lever engines for the Royal Navy in the 1830's.
Good Luck
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Dave.....spend a few hours looking at the images from 'inverted beam marine steam engines'........... Derek
https://www.google.com/search?q=inverted+beam+marine+steam+engines&rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioyrGa4OjdAhWU7mEKHeKUCy0QsAR6BAgEEAE (https://www.google.com/search?q=inverted+beam+marine+steam+engines&rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioyrGa4OjdAhWU7mEKHeKUCy0QsAR6BAgEEAE)
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Also this search: https://tinyurl.com/yby94yv2
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what struck my interest in this ship model project is the mechanical beauty.
this is an engine I went to visit the lever is at the top rather than the side but the frame work of the engine is the same style.
The most difficult aspect of this build is not finding the original plans or drawing scale modeling plans or even
3D printing the parts it is the research and finding someone who knows how this engine is built, connected to the water intake and boiler system.
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and a few more pictures
what makes a build like this is the fine details of the nuts and bolts and the piping, the valves and the boilers.
another thought on the project is to up the scale and build a cross section of the engine room.
I did Email both the Science museum and the maritime museum in the UK because this is where the marine steam engine was invented. You would think the admiralty collection of plans would have working drawings of the early side lever engines. UNLESS all these engines were privately built and there are no drawings in museum collections. I also tried model engineering groups but it is a rare bird to find anyone who knows how to assemble such and engine circa 1840
in the US steam engine advanced at a super rate around the 1860s it was river boats and the civil war and the iron clad that pushed the technology forward.
this engine was a one off one of a kind the very first steam engine in a war ship and that is what makes it so difficult to track down information. This engine technology is basic of all steam powered engines but it is technology of the 1830s almost 25 to 30 years before the steam revolution of the 1860s
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I don't know whether this gives anymore insight but Robert Napier was the one who started side lever engines for the Royal Navy in the 1830's.
Good Luck
Robert Napier is the man indeed NOW I wonder what happened to all his drawings and records? Are they tucked away in a museum somewhere or in private hands or are they in the admiralty plan collection?
I also wonder if the royal shipyards had a "steam crew" who built and installed the engines OR was that a job that was privately contracted out? Once all the pieces and parts were made where they sent to the shipyard?
I know from research the US Navy had no one employed by the navy to build a steam engine that was contracted out. Later as steam became a standard in ships the navy did establish a steam department.
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Hi Daves,
I got the initial info from a web site Graces Guide https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Main_Page which is a great source for archive copies of various engineering periodicals from the 1850's onwards. It's possible that there is further info in there somewhere. Also, and since they were Scottish, the data could be got through the National Archives for Scotland or Glasgow University, both of whom have lots of stuff!I'm going down to the Greenwich Archives early next month so I'll ask the question if you wish.
Tony
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Hi Daves,
I got the initial info from a web site Graces Guide https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Main_Page which is a great source for archive copies of various engineering periodicals from the 1850's onwards. It's possible that there is further info in there somewhere. Also, and since they were Scottish, the data could be got through the National Archives for Scotland or Glasgow University, both of whom have lots of stuff!I'm going down to the Greenwich Archives early next month so I'll ask the question if you wish.
Tony
the link to the original plans I posted at the beginning are all public domain so feel free to copy any of them as a reference to show.
if you would inquire as to where one would get information on how these early gothic engines were built and how they operated that is the plumbing to and from a boiler.
I am working on the CAD modeling plans and once I have them all drawn I will be glad to share them.
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in the picture DS4 I wonder if that box the engine is sitting on is a water tank.
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there must be some similar engines knocking about in some of the steam museums around and about and the valve gear cant be that different, from that valve gear the steam piping should be able to be worked out, like this one at a local steam railway
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have you thought of searching patents so see if there are any by napier for this engine, or the steam valve gear
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or through stock images eg https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-19c-engineering-drawing-145-hp-marine-steam-engine-caird-co-greenock-123157029.html
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There is a set of preserved side lever engines, ex tug, at Renfrew, near Glasgow. You could try getting in touch with the Renfrew museum to see if they have any details.Also the National Maritime Museum used to have a side lever paddle engine on display beside the hull of a paddle tug. Unfortunately not there now after 'modernisation''. You could however try getting in touch with them as they should have detail although drawings seem to be rather expensive.
Jim
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another thought would be to see if they have any plans at the former naval dockyard at Chatham (UK)
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This might give impetus to the working side :-))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-LAOhWedgw
[/size][/color]
[/size]Tony[/color]
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I have 90% of the main gothic style frame drawn in autocad and almost ready for 3D modeling. When I get the model ready of the frame I will post it.
now I am working on the condenser first I need to study it and understand it then from the drawings figure out how to assemble it
that well on the bottom of the bed plate is called the hot well and that is where the condensed water goes and from there pumped back to the boiler.
X sections of the first steam ships is quite fascinating it kind of mashes "steampunk" with model ship building it also takes model ship building to a level of model engineering. love it %%
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Quite fascinating just wondering what material will you use ?
CheersJohn
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Quite fascinating just wondering what material will you use ?
CheersJohn
as I draw the engine I keep jumping from one idea to another for example
if I can get ALL the inner parts correct I thought of a clear resin This would be a larger scale X section of the ship and I could use that fake smoke model railroaders use or a vaper liquid and blow it through the engine to look like steam. quite an ambitious idea.
3D printing offers all kinds of materials even tough enough resins and plastics I could actually make the engine and paddle wheel move
with compressed air
or the easy way and just 3D print a static hollow model just for looks.
there are no models of these gothic style engines because I think years ago there was no way of producing the elaborate columns, arches and moldings without a model, a mold and casting. Today with 3D modeling and printing it is now possible. Now once the parts have been modeled a print can be done and used as a master to make a mold and cast the parts.
it is typical to see the same sailing ships done over and over while the early steam ships were overlooked. My guess is because you had to be a model engineer to machine the parts. Now kits can actually be made for static engines and boilers and a growing interest in this era of ships is coming about.
I have been at this project for a year now and have not made the first part yet.
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Hi Daves,
Just thinking whether there would be need for weight in the piston to create enough inertia for full rotation, bearing in mind that the originals would have worked with very low pressure and relatively slow rotational speed.
:-))
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As I research and draw the engine and boiler for the steam ship Mississippi I came to the conclusion I will have to research and study the steam engine before I can draw and build one. It stands to reason the more input I have the more information I can collect so I contacted adminstrator on this forum as well as the moderator of another forum asking if I can link this topic on both forums.
There is no reason to build and maintain two separate topics It makes more sense to link them.
I would like to invite you to take a walk about in a boiler graveyard over at the other site here is the link
https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/page-2#post-41960
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I finished the CAD work for the gothic style frame of the engine and posted more images at this link
https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/page-3#post-42771
now I am moving on to the CAD work for the condenser but it has me stumped right now as to how it goes together
I will post my drawings as soon as they are done.
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Dave...I see in the alternate WEB site you ask ......'what is a P Block?'....and the resulting comment of a Pillow Block
I believe an earlier definition or of a P Block terminology was a Plummer Block......further I suggest the bearing housings you have drawn were originally cast as Plummer blocks....and long before someone converted dimensions to the ISO Standard referenced
One of the main differences between the P Bolcks is that the Pillow variety are usually centered around the shaft axis, whereas Plummer had upper and lower elements that had little resemblance with matters of symmetry ...or exactly as the original Drawings depict
Remember these structures featured heavily of Gothic Design
Derek
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Dave...I see in the alternate WEB site you ask ......'what is a P Block?'....and the resulting comment of a Pillow Block
I believe an earlier definition or of a P Block terminology was a Plummer Block......further I suggest the bearing housings you have drawn were originally cast as Plummer blocks....and long before someone converted dimensions to the ISO Standard referenced
One of the main differences between the P Bolcks is that the Pillow variety are usually centered around the shaft axis, whereas Plummer had upper and lower elements that had little resemblance with matters of symmetry ...or exactly as the original Drawings depict
Remember these structures featured heavily of Gothic Design
Derek
on some of the drawings the blocks are referred to as just a P block
the original drawings are difficult to see but here is the original
on the plan the blocks are called pillow blocks but your right there is a big difference between a pillow block and a plummer block.
I do not know if back in 1840s the term was interchangeable
I did post a few pictures of these type of blocks at this link
https://www.shipsofscale.com/sosforums/index.php?threads/marine-steam-engines-and-boilers.2272/page-3#post-42774
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I am guessing but plummer blocks may have had a white metal or lead insert, which would have formed the bearing surface, and been hand scraped to get the correct seating of the shaft in the bearing - plummer as in lead?
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the drawings have 4 different blocks I have to figure out where they go
the first says P block the other one does not say anything
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I am guessing but plummer blocks may have had a white metal or lead insert, which would have formed the bearing surface, and been hand scraped to get the correct seating of the shaft in the bearing - plummer as in lead?
from what I photographed in the Ford collection there seems to have been a brass bearing surface but in the second photograph you can see a light colored insert at the top of the shaft
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on the two pictures there is a brass insert or bearing surface
this block and shaft is quite different it has this big split ring around the shaft
I wish I would have taken a picture of the back side to see if this ring goes all the way through the block and what stops it from spinning around with the shaft.
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Do not be put off by the irregular octagional shaped bearing element blocks.....these were cast from the RED copper metal family.....down to Muntz Metal or a even softer from the White Metal variety
So,yes......after casting the blocks would have been lathe bored & then hand scraped....again we must remember that these new steam engine machines were to be melded with the accepted Gothic constructional[/size] architectural design
[/size]Imagine today's costs .....this style of design must have created a very high demand for qualified Journeyman of the Pattern Making and Metal Casting Trades
[/size]Derek
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I have been busy with CAD drawing this engine and finished the condenser drawings. NOW! the problem is how in the world does it go together
I do know it goes in the blue area
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here is the master drawing of the condenser and a series of closeups
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Dave, forgive me...but do you not now have a series of layered tracings taken from an original hand drawing?....
If this is the case, does each sub component tracing on another layer confirm all dimensions of the sub component?
So as such...I wasn't aware that CAD packages have an auto assembly tool from tracings
Derek
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I do not understand your post
Dave, forgive me...but do you not now have a series of layered tracings taken from an original hand drawing?....
no layered tracings but what you see are tracings from the original and are all scaled to one another
If this is the case, does each sub component tracing on another layer confirm all dimensions of the sub component?
each component on the original had dimensions drawn in so I used those dimensions to size each part so everything drawn is now the same scale.
So as such...I wasn't aware that CAD packages have an auto assembly tool from tracings
I do not know what "auto assembly tool" is somehow all the parts fit together to make a condenser
the original look like this and I used the dimensions on the plans are redrew the pARTS
Derek
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put the different drawings into a single drawing, on different layers (maybe think of saving each as a block) then you can adjust the relative positions quite easily by turning layers on and off and moving the parts on one layer relative to another)
Of course as a professional CAD draughtsman, I would probably have initially drawn up the parts using the drawings as a guide, but creating the CAD in 3d to start with, then with the individual components all saved as separate blocks, juggled the parts around until they fitted properly. (but that is me being a smartie pants)
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and the smartie pants are the people I hope to meet
I can send anyone who wants a copy of the CAD drawing a DWG or DXF file if you want to just fiddle with it and try to put it together or do a 3D file
I have the main frame and the condenser files done and working on the cylinder
it may take a village to build this engine I am not smart enough with steam engines to do it alone
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3D modeling is an art unto itself I think I get what your saying that is to create the parts in 3D and try to fit it all together brilliant!
like the frame columns
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yes, thats the idea
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basically you create building blocks and then merge them together to form your finished object
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my problem is I am OK with cad drafting not a pro just at a hobby level. I did have a pro who would take my CAD drawings and redo them as 3D models but lo and behold that person is no longer available. So at this time I am at a stand still until I can find someone willing to create a 3D model from the CAD drawings.
I will carry on with drawing the parts and hopeful someone with an interest in this old gothic engine will attempt the 3D model.
my skills with 3D modeling is with a simple program Google sketchup
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a progress report on the CAD drawing
so far I finished the main frame, the cylinder, the condenser and the air pump
I am wondering if these engines had just one lever or was there a lever on both sides of the frame?
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Dave.......
1. the image you are working on [progress3] is an inverted beam engine.........these [usually] have a symmetric pair of 'outer' lower beams driving a top mounted crankshaft
2. the gloss white images from a restored engine with the beautiful exampled Gothic cast entablature and structure is of single 'central' upper beam engine driving a lower mounted crankshaft
So to answer your question, as far as I can see......yes....your design example will have a balanced symmetric pair of 'outer' lower beams driving a top mounted shaft
Derek
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a progress report on the CAD drawing
so far I finished the main frame, the cylinder, the condenser and the air pump
I am wondering if these engines had just one lever or was there a lever on both sides of the frame?
Daves,
Here is a link to side lever engines ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_steam_engine ) which may be of some help to you.
can't prove it but I am sure that the engine has only one beam per side, "Hence a side lever engine."
The engine shown at Dumbarton is only about 20 miles from me but not in a place that I visit often, it sits outside Denny's experimental tank, at one time the longest in Britain if not the world and can be visited anytime that one is in the area, this tank was used by Barnes Wallis to experiment with his design for the bouncing bomb used by the Dam Buster patrol during the WW 11 bombing raids.
I hope this is of help to you.
George.
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Dave,
(can't prove it but I am sure that the engine has only one beam per side, "Hence a side lever engine." )
OOPS wrongly worded,
I should have said , Only one beam on the engines " side.
George.
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Dave , There is a side lever engine at Markham Grange Steam Museum , Doncaster , England . They have a web site , where you will find pictures and a description of its working . Hope this helps a little . Sorry , I am not computor literate , and so cant post a link . Trevor .
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Hi Treble,
After looking up your connection to Grange Steam museum it quite clearly states that there are two beams on a lever engine, one on each side.
Thanks for the link as I always assumed that there was only one beam on one side.
George
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Hi Treble,
Thanks for the link as I always assumed that there was only one beam on one side.
George
Paddle tugs with side lever engines often could split the engine into two halves to give independant paddle drive. In this case each half had a single lever. the cranks could then be recoupled to give the full engine.
Jim
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Dave , There is a side lever engine at Markham Grange Steam Museum , Doncaster , England . They have a web site , where you will find pictures and a description of its working . Hope this helps a little . Sorry , I am not computor literate , and so cant post a link . Trevor .
thanks mate I found the site
I got a real head scratcher at this point of the build so I will need to make a few contacts with museums to see if I can get some answers.
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when you look at this engine it is one complete engine but the Mississippi steam frigate had 2 of these side by side.
did the shaft for the paddle wheels run as one continues shaft OR did these engines run independent of one another?
is there some sort of listing of all steam engine museums and clubs in England?
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Dave's , If you care to email your address details to me at t.drabble@btinternet.com then I will forward on to you my copy of this year's Steam Herritage Guide which I think you will find of interest . Trevor.
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Steves , If you email your address details to me at t.drabble@btinternet.com then I will send you my copy of this year's Steam Herritage Guide which I think you will find of use . Trevor
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and now for a sneak peek at the progress of the 3d model of the frame
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thats looking really nice, you are getting along quite well, theres a good few hours work in that 3d model, but well worth it.
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part by part will be created as a 3D model then I will try to assemble the engine. Still many parts I do not know what they are or how it all goes together. hope by seeing the engine in 3D I can rely on logic.
once the engine is done then on to a cross section of the ships engine room.
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Hi Dave,
I’m very interested in your project, since I’m in the middle of designing and building a side lever engine for the Paddle Tug Monarch (1833).
One of my problems was deciding whether to use parallel motion linkages or the more simple cross-head guides.
The only description I’ve found of the Monarch’s side lever engine was from “British Steam Tugs” by P.N. Thomas (1983) where he describes seeing a contemporary model at Newcastle Museum with “…a cover over the crosshead slides “ (page 15). This was only an assumption on his part and the evidence for parallel motion is with the contemporary engine that you are modelling and also a model of the PS. Ruby (River Thames, 1836) which shows parallel motion. See http://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/marine_engines2.html (http://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/marine_engines2.html)
As you can see from the photograph below, I have made progress in determining the linkage geometry;
see Mayhem Thread (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55112.0.html)https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55112.0.html[/url]
I’m very interested in the “p block 1.jpg” image and comments particularly the description “P.Block for parallel motion back shaft” which I think is what I’ve seen described as the “Bridle”.
As you may have noticed with these old engines that the very fine adjustment of the linkages was with metal wedges at the unions – it must have been a very tiring and tedious process lifting the piston up and down and banging the wedges until the vertical alignment was achieved.
The engine as it exists is not at all elegant, but the plan is to bush out the linkages with phosphor bronze, since it will be a hard working engine on steam in a 6 foot model of the Monarch.
I also plan to replace items of the engine with “architectural” Corinthian columns once I’m satisfied that I have a working engine.
The contemporary model of the Monarch, mentioned above, I finally managed to locate at the Science Museum (London), and which they photographed and sent me (at a price!) three very good images.
Ian
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I will post some original drawings for the engine linkage I am modeling but for now here are some closeup details of the frame
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here is the assembled frame for the engine. Now comes the bed plate, cylinder, condenser and pumps
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Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting :D .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms
Just looking back at the Drawing for the Parallel Motion support bearing plate we see the 4 base bolts were 1 1/8" and elongated for adjustment and the top cap 2 bolts were 1 1/4"
In the representations, the scale size of the 4 base bolt heads appear a little undersized...[1"?]
The other question is ....the detail drawing of the Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?
Derek
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Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting
[/size][/color] .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms
each of those frames were cast in one piece and their weight was about 18 tons.
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Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting :D .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms
Just looking back at the Drawing for the Parallel Motion support bearing plate we see the 4 base bolts were 1 1/8" and elongated for adjustment and the top cap 2 bolts were 1 1/4"
in the original drawings the bolt holes are drawn in, because I planned on 3D printing parts bolted together rather than show a hole I drew a bolt head. There would have been a slot showing along side the bolt head but that detail would be so tiny I just eliminated the slot.
In the representations, the scale size of the 4 base bolt heads appear a little undersized...[1"?]
now that you pointed that out I agree so that is something I will go back and correct
The other question is ....the detail drawing of the Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?
I pondered that and could not quite decide what to do about it. My first idea was to create a non working dummy model with parts 3D printed in place like the pillow blocks. Yes you are correct they were keyed into their bed plates. That seam between parts would be so fine you would not see it at the scale of the model so I eliminated the seam. THEN! I was approached by a model engineer and he suggested I create all the parts separate and down to exact detail so a working model can be built from the drawings and 3D model. OK that can indeed be done except for one little flaw in the idea. I am not a steam engineer and I am guessing and interrupting the original plans best I can. I have a whole lot of parts I am totally clueless what the are and how they fit into the engine.
for now I will try and create a dummy engine and post it with hopes people will step forward and point out corrections and offer suggestions. This project can be refined to an actual working model with a little help.
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it would be possible for a model steam engineer to recreate a steam engine built in 1839 right down to the very size of the nuts and bolts IF such information was available. Well your in luck because that information is available what is not available is the knowhow to actually build it for me anyhow.
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The other question is ....the detail drawing of the
Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?
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All of this makes perfect sense Dave
It certainly is advantageous to have access to the Table of Scale Drawings for each type of bolted arrangement. Being in scale....just understand the stud size, then copy the relationship scale x the nut = AF size and height.....top face profile......washer thickness & diameter etc etc
[just to confuse {-) the top Table depicts nuts as the hex point to point, the second table depicts the nuts in across the flats]
The fitment of the Parallel Motion Shaft mounting Plate is absolutely typical of the ingenuity of these Designers ......the base of the block is flat, the frame has a 'cast in'' then machined set of relief pads.....5 rectangular width wise finger pads [this makes the machining of each support plate surface much easier and in ensuring flatness - it would not be uncommon to understand that each of those 5 finger pads were hand scraped & blued to ensure accuracy [flatness, squareness, triangulation between each other pivot axis in the linkage or arm]
The frames also has width wise support up-sweeps cast in at each end of the support plate area. The plate has 1 1/8" elongated holes, and whilst not shown in the Drawing....final during final assembly and positioning of the PMS mounting.....steel 'Keeps' [full height x width sized packing pieces] would have fitted between the ends of the PMS mounting plate and the corresponding cast support up-sweep
We can see, & naturally the identical arrangement would be applicable to the top/main engine shaft bearing block to frame interface
The engineering philosophy in this engineering was carried over and used in military [Naval] armaments in a parallel time frame with the building of these machines................... Derek
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next phase of the drawing is adding these parts, one problem at this point are the green parts on the left
I do not know for sure where they go or how they attach to the engine I am taking a guess and say they sit on top of the purple part which on the original plans sheet it is titled pumps.
I did notice the purple part does line up with the P block on top of the frame hum interesting
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here is a gothic engine with parts that look like the green parts in the drawing. logic dictates these have something to do with the steam going into the cylinder and out of the cylinder.
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as I draw the parts in detail I will post the 2D CAD drawings with the original drawing. Once the CAD drawings for these parts are done then they will be created as a 3D model and finally assembled into the frame and on the bed plate
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starting with the cylinder the first thing to look at is the original sheet of drawings
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the original drawings are quite large 4 feet long and 70 gigabites in size way to big to post because you can not read them
what I did was take the original and crop the drawings down into smaller files so lets take a look at what has been drawn.
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so those are the drawings of the cylinder now on another sheet17 I found the top and one unknow drawing so lets take a look at those
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go back to post number 46 and in the lower right corner is a cross section drawing of the bottom of the cylinder, note how it is drawn
now look at the final CAD drawings of the assembled cylinder
the first drawing is the bottom flipped over the second assembly drawing shows the bottom as drawn, which way should it go?
also here is the layout of the cylinder drawn on the bed plate and it does show the 4 tabs from the bottom drawing.
if you use the first assembly those tabs will sit flat on the bed plate
if you flip the bottom like it is drawn there will be a gap between the tabs on the bottom of the cylinder and the bed plate.
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Watching with great interest as I have a friend who does 3d printing and casting ,and I presume you may be thinking the same so here is a vid of a working model https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBfHfl4z_bg
Cheers and merry Christmas and happy new year to allJohn
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more work has been done on building the 3d engine model
here is the bed plate the engine sits on
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with the bed plate now the frame can be joined to the plate
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there is an error in the design the well under the plate is where the water goes once it is condensed then from there it is pumped back to the boiler. As you can see the square between the P blocks where the condenser goes is solid. I don't think that is correct. to the right is the circle were the pump bolts to the plate again there is no access to the water well. oops!
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back to the drawing board to see what went wrong
first looking at the original 1839 drawing
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I think this is how it should be
the blue areas are open to the well and the gray areas are where the condenser and pump bolt to
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my first thought was the yellow area is open but on second thought the light green areas between the condenser and pump would be open. so I am going back to the other setup of 2 openings under the condenser and pump
any thoughts on this?
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one more thing to ponder those P-blocks are what the shaft for the lever fits into. There is a lever on both sides of the engine. Between these P-blocks is the condenser. So the question is does the shaft run from P-block to P-block and through the condenser OR is the shaft short and just rides in the P-block?
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the engines are mounted in the hull sitting on beams that run along the side of the bedplate then the water well sits between these beams.
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the reason I question the lever shaft is because there are circles drawn on the sides of the condenser
and they line up perfect with the P-blocks
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that does appear that the shaft runs through a tube that spans the condenser, the section through shows that tube.
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Dave...I believe your 'unknown part' may be a 75" diameter oval profiled in height, cast, hollow valve disk with a circular seal cavity at top & bottom
Reference is made to a Cast Iron composite material and cut diagonally as is a cast iron piston ring to fit and seal from these cavities
This Drawing is references as Section B , however shows no porting. An additional sectional Drawing of this disk would confirm porting functionality
It could be that this rotary disk is the main admission valve for the cylinder...although the complexity baffles
The top face of this valve disk matches the 75" diameter and curvature of the cylinder cap which has the fixed admission cast port
Sheet 7 nominates the technical term Birds Eye view O0 of the cylinder bottom..... [Elias W Copeland s Steam Engineer - New York 31/12/1839]
It would be interesting to see a full size copy of Sheet 7, and compare to Sheet 17
Derek
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All of the words here are legible %) and sort of make sense, although it would be interesting to see.... DD Composition Listings
Is the upper and lower profile of the valve disk a uniform 3 1/32" on a 75" ellipse?
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ok a little fiddle about with the bed plate and here is a corrected version with the openings for the condenser and pump
what makes this project interesting is the engineering challenges, you think hum there is a "well" how does the water get from the condenser into the well and back out to the boiler. It needs access.
with 3d modeling you can see the parts inside and out and all around this gives you the ideas how it all might work.
oops again I just noticed there are NO bolt holding the P block to the plate and no bolts on top of the P block
now it is time to move on to the cylinder this is going to be tough job figuring it out
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Dave....spent a few hours last night looking at the Drawing files posted via PM......
Clearly there must have been quite a number of additional Drawings associated with the Series No 17 showing both Elevation and End Elevation sections through the assembled engine
It is possible that these were missed or omitted during archieving ...however this remains unknown
There is a Drawing of components that relate to a Steam Locomotive wheel drive in amongst the Side Lever engine parts
So, about the only additional offering is that this 75" diameter contoured Disk Plate is actually married with an 11 1/2 " x 8 1/2" diameter, tapered rotary Plug Valve
There are a number of individual Plug Valve [plugs] shown, however I did not find a generic plug with a dimension table
It is more than fair to acknowledge I am still more than a little lost >>:-( with some of these engine parts, however will continue to watch the thread with great interest
Derek
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when the plans were found some of the drawings were far to delicate to un roll and copy and some were missing.
When the navy built the first 2 steam war ships they used a vertical gothic style in one ship and a horizonal engine in the other. The navy favored the horizonal type engines so the one being modeled is a one off one of a kind. However, in England this type of engine was quite common but finding plans proved to be very difficult. Here in the states there is one example in the Henry Ford museum built the same year as the one being modeled.
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the historical report on the Henry ford engine
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Because the engine drawings are incomplete there is no way to historically reproduce the engine exactly as built. The next best thing is to model what pieces and parts that did survive and fill in the blanks with engineering technology of the period by using other examples.
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here are two drawings from the set
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taking a look at the museum engine it looks like those drawings posted above could be these parts just a different style OR NOT
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here is another engine used as a pump dated circa 1830s it is the same basic setup 2 pillars a horizonal shaft and levers
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work continues and the cylinder has been created and set in place.
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more views
you can see in these views where the in and out ports for the steam will bolt to. It is that long open area at the top
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I have so many parts to this engine I am thinking maybe a diorama of the ship under construction showing the engines parts being assembled.
Then the thought occurs to me how was such an engine built in 1839? Just the frames were 18 tons and 20 feet long how were these stood up on end, placed on the 10 ton bedplate sitting on the floor timbers of the hull?
I thought hum maybe a gantry but that would just span the hull so how did the gantry pick up and move the parts? a crane maybe? but it has to be moveable.
where there steam cranes in use in shipyards in 1839? or was the entire job done by ropes and pully system?
any ideas from the crowd?
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Research Dockyard Shearlegs.............capable of lifting 100's of tons at the turn of the Century
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2Fimages%2FHarbour%2FA_Frame.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2FHarbourSheerlegs.htm&docid=aaNPpoSAZdHGVM&tbnid=cwuV57DSrXX6SM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4..i&w=600&h=470&bih=475&biw=1434&q=ship%20building%20shearlegs&ved=0ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4&iact=mrc&uact=8 (https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2Fimages%2FHarbour%2FA_Frame.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcjazz.f2s.com%2FHarbourSheerlegs.htm&docid=aaNPpoSAZdHGVM&tbnid=cwuV57DSrXX6SM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4..i&w=600&h=470&bih=475&biw=1434&q=ship%20building%20shearlegs&ved=0ahUKEwiigp7ajZ7gAhXPfX0KHXe5BCYQMwiLASg-MD4&iact=mrc&uact=8)
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&q=ship+building+shearlegs&tbm=isch&source=hp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidqMK8ip7gAhXbknAKHYwsBCAQsAR6BAgEEAE (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C2CHBF_en-GBAU813AU813&q=ship+building+shearlegs&tbm=isch&source=hp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidqMK8ip7gAhXbknAKHYwsBCAQsAR6BAgEEAE)
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thank you Derek never in 100 years would i have come up with the term "shearlegs"
hum?? interesting indeed shearlegs is the answer to lifting heavy things, now to ponder moving heavy things, the shearlegs are stationary so the parts have to be moved to the shearlegs. Unless the shearlegs rotated then it could be constructed next to the hull, rotate and pick up the frames then rotate them over the hull timbers and set them down.
it does make engineering logic to lay the keel set the floor timbers in place and construct the engine, then built the hull around the engine rather than build the hull first and lift up and lower the engine into the hull. But somehow the shearleg crane has to swing and pick the parts up off the ground and place them on the hull floors.
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Dave........the following image & text [Belfast Ireland] answers some of your questions
I had the advantage & privilege in part of my working life, as being employed by our Australian Department of Defence Navy, located at our Fleet Base, Garden Island Sydney
In the history of GI, we see she still had a large 'pair of shear legs' as late as 1927.....
Derek ....[it was said that Above Weapons Foreman don't actually work {-) ] :P
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check out this crane in the foundry where they are casting the cylinder pretty nice
I am still searching for better drawings of how shipyard cranes shearlegs and derricks work they had to swing side to side to pick stuff up off the ground and swing it in place.
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I would think a crane of some sort had to swing to the side pick up a part and swing it over the hull. This system would need a slewing platform of some sort.
any ideas?
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Dave......the motions of Sheer Legs were limited to lifting, luffing & lowering.....due to the design limitations [of stability] larger variations were fixed and did not slew
Reading of references has noted that to attain a placement of a load, it could be necessary to move the vessel in a longitudinal plane [fwd to aft] under the Sheer Leg centre or axis to gain a tru[ish] vertical lift or lowering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDUvN2C8Wa4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDUvN2C8Wa4)
The huge Sheer Leg set at Garden Island were not for ship construction, but ship maintenance...so it was a relatively simple method of moving the ship along the wharf to gain that tru[ish] vertical lift
[and all this time I had been incorrectly thinking >>:-( of two items in [shear]
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I found these
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I actually found this it is from the very company that built the engine being modeled here
it shows 3 different cranes in use
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after watching the shear leg video I can see how it would work lifting heavy engine parts and placing them in the hull.
here is another type crane that seemed to be everywhere
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a progress report on the modeling of the engine
here is the condenser and cooling tower modeled so lets take a walk around it
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getting up close
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there is a hole that runs through it from side to side and a few openings I guess for steam to enter the condenser and cooling water inlet and outlet and an opening for an air pump with a couple extra at this time unknown openings like in the cooling tower.
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the cooling tower is bolted to the top of the condenser
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ok so lets fit the condenser into the engine
it sets right over the opening in the bedplate well
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and some more views
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that hole is a tunnel for the lever shaft to run from pillow block to pillow block
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and finally an overhead view which a light went off and I think the cooling tower is in the wrong place it should be turned 90 drgrees and set at the back of the condenser. Humm I will post a correction later
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nice
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Beautiful!
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a little more progress on the engine
the air pump has been modeled I do change the rendering just for the heck of it so here is the air pump which bolts to the side of the condenser.
there has to be a hole in the top for the shaft will do that later
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so now the air pump gets bolted into the engine
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https://waterandsteam.org.uk/explore-the-museum/
is there anyone on the forum close to the above museum?
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an up date on the modeling project of the gothic engine
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Dave ...your original Drawing displayed symmetric or square plummer block feet....
When modeled in blue in Feb 19 they were square
When modeled in green in March 19, one side is tapered down?
The eight nut heads shown on C-C F in the original plan are only partially seen , so could well be off axis & under the reduced width of the Web?.....however would require flat surfaces on either side for squareness and securing
Derek
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I think that the bearing caps are dished on top to hold oil.
CheersJohn
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actually those surfaces do not tapper down, sometimes when I render an object the light source makes thing look different than what they really are.
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what brought this project to a screaming halt is I can not figure out how the steam gets into the cylinder and the exhaust gets out. There are 2 steam boxes one at the bottom of the cylinder and one at the top.
here is the top one
notice there is no opening for steam to inter the box. The long opening attaches to the cylinder.
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and now here is the bottom steam box again notice there is no opening for steam to inter or exit. the box.
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every steam box example I found has a valve but the one above does not.
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another example
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here is the type of valve system used on this engine and it still does not answer the question for the intake and exhaust of the steam from the cylinder
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Dave....
Your image mbm8.jpg below displays the double bell steam inlet and exhaust valving........are you comfortable with the understanding of the valve motions and functions?
It also displays diagrammatically [in the Plan view] the steam inlet and exhaust for the cylinder
Your rendered of the images also display the externals - push rods of the same type of double bell valving....your uvc3.jpg shows the valve internals within the steam box
It also displays the large rectangular steam interface protrusion that marries up to the corresponding interface
Derek
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Your image
mbm8.jpg
below displays the double bell steam inlet and exhaust valving........are you comfortable with the understanding of the valve motions and functions?
actually no what I am doing is drawing and modeling the engine based on very little understanding of how it works or for that matter what some of the parts are and how they fit to one another.
take for example the original drawings of the above steam boxes
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here is a close up of the text in the upper left corner
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and this part ?
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and the valve parts
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I got how the steam boxes join the cylinder ignore those columns those are totally wrong part in the wrong place. so I know how the steam goes from the steam chests into the cylinder and back out. The question I have is how does the steam get into the stream chest if there is no valve or steam pipe connection in the steam box?
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then this part keeps me up at night it has the same relief pattern as on the steam boxes so it is a structural part, but where does it go?
oddly enough going by measurements it does match yo to this part but that is a wild guess
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I thought I solved the mystery of how the steam goes into and out of the steam chest by looking at this illustration. The problem with this is there is no room from the engines bedplate to the bottom of the hull for steam pipes. Then I thought what if I turned this upside down and the steam pipes from the boiler and to the condenser are on top
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Dave......have found on the CSEE alternate WEB site one of the Drawings you posted which explains the functionality of the Double Bell or Double Bonnet valve arrangement
It is all to do with using equal low pressures to pilot the respective valves, but by using larger effective diameters ...so the forces required on the associated mechanism are still relatively low
Look carefully at the Drawing diameter dimensions below...there is a 1" differential on diameters in each case between the pilot stage and the lift valve stage
Right hand side = Inlet upper lift = 13 3/4", lower pilot = 14 3/4"
Left hand side = Exhaust upper pilot = 14/3/4", lower lift = 13 3/4"
I will now go over to the CSEE site as it aligns more with your specific project task
Derek
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I have moved on to the boilers for this engine
starting with a cross section of the very delicate original drawing I traced it in CAD and made corrections as I drew it
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next drawing I did a top view of the layout from the midsection of the hull. It looks like the 2 boilers are sitting at and angle with a steam dome in the middle and the stack sitting on this dome which spans both boilers.
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there are 2 ways this boiler can operate 1 is the boiler is filled with water and hot gas and smoke go through the tubes but how is the gas and smoke directed to the stack?
a second way is the water goes through the tubes and heated by the fire box this works for the gas and smoke but how does the steam get from the tubes to the steam dome and out to the engine?
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as the CAD drawings are done in detail the file is then used to create 3 D models
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by looking at the drawings can anyone tell me what this wheel should look like?
there are 2 round plates one small one large does the drawing show both sides of one plate?
how do the paddles attach to the wheel?
I assume there are 3 wheels with the larger of the 2 round plates being the center hub.
does anyone know of any images or drawings showing a wheel together?
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looks to me that it shows 2 wheel plates, 3 views of each, both sides and an edge view.
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>>:-( ...the wheel Drawings for the Mississippi are as mysterious as the boiler Drawings
One of the first issues I see when attempting to visualise an Isometric [or 3D model] with the wheel assembly is each hub has a different number of wheel spokes......
I count 42 & 21 respectively.....so this is a divisible 2:1 ratio.........
In the end elevation view of the 42 spoke in a V pattern, the outer right hand appears to be riveted to another rim, so possibly the 21 spoked hub......as marked up
The attachment of the paddle blades is via the hooked forged bolts....with the hook latching into the next spaced frame spoke......I think the scaling and representation of the hooked bolts belays their real size in relation to the other wheel components
Derek
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looking at the cross section I do not understand what the draftsman is trying to show. If these are round plates then the cross section should look the same top and bottom, but they are different which is the part I do not understand why.
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I thought maybe these are 2 separate plates back to back with the top part section drawing showing the plate to the left and the bottom part showing the plate on the right.
I found images showing the hub of a water wheel and right down the center of the edge is a seam, or so it looks.
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looking at the center hub the cross section is drawn the same top and bottom unlike the outer hub
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Dave....in the earlier end elevation [waterwheel hub2] view we see
a. the 1/2 section of the hub disk - in the top half is section from centre to 12.00 o'clock [vertical]
b. the 1/2 section of the hub disk - in the bottom half is section from centre to about 7.00 o'clock [anticlockwise from the vertical past 6.00 o'clock]
So these views depict the varying thickness and profile of the disk plate, then the disk plate through a Web...etc
My markups should clarify this................Derek
[PS......the stern wheel images 76 to 81 below have no relevance to the Mississippi side wheels]
[for what ever reason, I am now experiencing difficulty in opening images in the CSEE web site]
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[PS......the stern wheel images 76 to 81 below have no relevance to the Mississippi side wheels]
those images are from the iron clad Cairo I was collection images of different wheels. The Cairo and Mississippi were afloat at the same time period. So was sort of using it as a basic reference.
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[for what ever reason, I am now experiencing
difficulty
in opening images in the CSEE web site]
I know Pat changes settings so guests can view the larger images rather than tiny thumbnails maybe that is a problem?
I am having no trouble seeing the images. Contact CSEE
http://classicsteamengineering.com/threads/paddle-wheel.1412/ here is a link to the topic over at CSEE and anyone should be able to view the large images
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ok now I get it the section drawings are not the complete hub but rather section drawings in different locations along the round hub.
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This is the issue I have Dave with the CSEE site....about the 5th of October you posted the question of the difference in web thickness as drawn
The actual postings had Drawings as attachment links and being only opened individually..... so I didn't see or understand the question
Yesterday the 13th of October, you posted the same question here on MBM with complete Drawings embedded & it was a simple task of looking, understanding, then posting the answer response to you
[It is possible that the CSEE site is conserving data width?.........but it does not help with Q&A in seeing multiple images & text in the one page ....feel free to pass this posting on to Pat if you wish]
___________________________________________
With respect to the Drawings themselves, Standards of Drawing Practice in the early 1800's did not conform to what new CAD students are taught today, so one must put our eyes in the mind of that Draghtsman/Engineer to understand what is being attempted to be displayed
In fairness, the hand produced Drawings of the period are extremely detailed......scaling and notation of sections sometimes need a little thought
Derek
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I came across this drawing in the original set.
then looking through my collection of images of the Cairo I thought I might of spotted the part on the wheel shaft. My thinking is it some sort of counter weight, a fly wheel or a break to stop the wheel from turning
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looking at a model of the center hub done by Bill Hazzard
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here are some images of the boilers and steam dome
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after finishing the parallel linkage of the cylinder
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moving on to the linkage to the air pump first I set up the drawing starting at the center of the hole in the lever arm those are the light blue lines
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notice at the ends of the crosstail there are 2 holes. Looking at the 3D model there are 2 holes in the frame that match up with the holes in the crosstail.
This brings up a few questions such as
what are these holes for? are they for some sort of parallel motion linkage?
how does it work?
what might it of looked like?
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the holes in the arch of the frame do line up perfectly with the crosstail but there are these at the top of the frame that do not line up with anything concerning the air pump and its linkage so what are they for?
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it has been a log time since i posted progress on the gothic steam engine model so here are some images
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more images
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printing in progress
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just playing with ideas here is a clear print of the engine, the idea is to show the interior parts such as the piston and inside of the condenser etc. This can be printed at any scale.
Note the logo of the Weasel Works this is a group of fabricators, CAD, 3D modeling, printing, laser cutting and CNC milling. If anyone is interested in the engine or any project PM me and i will put you in touch with the proper person. The Wesel Works is a take off of the Skunk works. Anyone in the Weasel Works shares files and printed or fabricated parts at no charge. There are still a number of parts needed to be drawn and 3D modeled. Anyone interested?
the Weasel Works it not limited to just steam engines