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Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Working vessels R&D: => Topic started by: raflaunches on October 20, 2018, 08:17:05 PM

Title: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 20, 2018, 08:17:05 PM
Hi everyone


Whilst I'm waiting for my car to be fixed (awaiting spares) I was given an early Christmas present by my mum- the latest Perkins British Warship Recognition Volume. In the incomplete section (volume VIII) there are some very unusal vessels drawn, one of them called Crane Lighter Number IV. A bit of research and I find that she was nicknamed 'Clive' due to her initials CL IV.
I've only found a little bit of information - built on the Tyne in 1916, sunk 1942 at Malta, 220ft long 87ft wide. I'm wondering if anyone has any other information on this vessel as I think it would make a good model with some real difference to the usual warships that I usually build. Anything would be gratefully received. :-))


(https://thumb.ibb.co/gGEy6L/Crane-Lighter-No-4-1916.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gGEy6L)


(https://thumb.ibb.co/gibQLf/Crane-Lighter-No-42-1916.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gibQLf)
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: kevin547n on October 20, 2018, 09:46:06 PM

https://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20180107/life-features/The-Ma-ina-from-mast-crane-to-boutique-hotel.667406

http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/C-Ships/cranelighterno41916.html


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=floating+crane+clive&rlz=1C1PQHB_enGB727GB742&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij_YeQ8ZXeAhXBL8AKHbIEAXcQsAR6BAgFEAE&biw=1612&bih=855


https://www.facebook.com/SouthamptonMemories/photos/the-southampton-srfloating-crane-no1this-well-known-crane-worked-the-docks-for-o/981223155300274/

Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 20, 2018, 10:01:32 PM
Thanks Kevin


Some of those I had seen but the Malta link and the Facebook page are interesting reads.
Many thanks  :-))
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: dodes on October 28, 2018, 07:26:43 PM
Hi Nick, the RMAS had two old Crane Lighters which were in their earlier years steam powered and I believe self propelled one in Pompey and one in Devonport, but by the time I knew them they were dumb barges and running on diesels, but fun to tow around usually with a dog and a smaller tug.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: TailUK on October 29, 2018, 10:38:23 AM
Thinking outside the box a little.  This Crane is exactly the sort of thing that Meccano Magazine used to love to write about.  You can read Meccano Magazine online for free now at http://meccano.magazines.free.fr/  Why not try there.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 31, 2018, 10:17:23 AM
Hi Nick, the RMAS had two old Crane Lighters which were in their earlier years steam powered and I believe self propelled one in Pompey and one in Devonport, but by the time I knew them they were dumb barges and running on diesels, but fun to tow around usually with a dog and a smaller tug.


Hi David,


Thanks for the information, I now know that weíre 8 large 250t steam powered crane lighters in use at Royal Navy facilities around the world. Great to know some survived longer than I expected.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 31, 2018, 10:21:43 AM
Thinking outside the box a little.  This Crane is exactly the sort of thing that Meccano Magazine used to love to write about.  You can read Meccano Magazine online for free now at http://meccano.magazines.free.fr/ (http://meccano.magazines.free.fr/)  Why not try there.


Hi TailUK


Thanks for the link-


Now that is an interesting point, when I was doing my initial research last weekend there were some links that popped up on the search engine mentioned Meccano. Iíve had a quick look on the link youíve provided and there is an American floating crane article which is very similar so there might be some more.
Iíll keep you appraised when I find some more. :-)

Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: grendel on October 31, 2018, 12:26:16 PM
you might even find some info on the meccano forums - eg http://www.nzmeccano.com/forum/index.php
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: roycv on October 31, 2018, 12:32:06 PM
Hello I also belong to a Meccano society,
http://www.hsomerville.com/wlms/
We have a member Peter Goddard who is a mine of information on large cranes and recently made a large Floating Crane model.
Good luck,
Roy
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 31, 2018, 12:51:50 PM
Thanks guys, :-))


Definitely checking out both links, Iíve found a reference to CLIVE from a Meccano magazine dated 1931 which was repeated in a book called Wonder Book of Wonder Engineering. Managed to find a copy on eBay for a reasonable price.
Thanks for your help so far. :-)
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: dodes on January 04, 2019, 03:29:21 PM
Hi Nick, the Pompey tug I remember is CL7 and one of those you are talking about, but in the 1970/80's they were cold moved with a dog and a small tug. CL5 was at Devonport, similarly moved by tugs but both still then I believe still retained their screws , but never used them. Once when CL5 was being moved in a gale of wind the pilot moved the crane round 90 deg's to assist the move.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: ballastanksian on January 04, 2019, 08:03:06 PM
I can't wait to see your build log for Clive Nick! It reminds me of a coaling hulk I would love to build (one of many ideas  {:-{ ) based on the old old HMS Agincourt hull and festooned with steam cranes. Yours and the hulk would make attractive dockyard moving accessories.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on January 05, 2019, 08:30:58 PM
I think you and I have very similiar ideas O0


I bought some plans off ebay but unfortunately they turned out to be an Italian crane that sat on a barge, slightly mis-leading but never mind- they weren't very expensive so I'm not too bothered.
The Wonder Book of Wonder Engineering arrived last month and it does give a little more information it only has the same photo as the ones already seen. I think I may draw up a rough idea of the hull based on probable designs of powered barges. I may enquire at the NMM plans section to see if they have original plans first but only if they include all drawings- no point if they are missing hull sections and waterlines.
I've got a couple of projects to finish first so I've got plenty of research time.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: dodes on January 05, 2019, 09:03:36 PM
Hi Nick, I have no idea of the under water hull, but seem to remember the top above water was a square hull. With a swim head bow, moved the CL5 at Devonport a few times when training for a ships pilot and used to berth outboard of CL7 with the Goldeneye at Portsmouth, beamy hulls but then they had to be for stability. At Chatham we had a tripod lifter came to Chatham after the war from Germany as war repatriation, had more concrete in its bottom than the M2 bridge.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: warspite on April 12, 2019, 10:19:05 AM
On TV yesterday there was a documentary called the Desert Rats, in it refered to the malta base in stopping the italian push into egypt, it shown the following picture - the same crane ?
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on April 12, 2019, 06:50:04 PM
Hi there


It certainly could be, the little bit of info on the history of the CL IV says it was based at Malta for a while.
Thanks for sharing the picture, Iíve been trying to find further pictures but been unsuccessful so far.
 :-))
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: ballastanksian on April 12, 2019, 09:07:27 PM
The crane shape and layout look the same. I cannot see a second funnel to be certain but if the books say she was honing around Malta then it is likely one and the same.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on May 17, 2019, 08:04:06 PM
A bit of an update on my research...


I found this picture, probably of a sister floating crane of the same class, being dismantled. Not sure but looks like one of the twin funnels has already been removed. What do you guys think?


(http://i67.tinypic.com/2887cxw.jpg)
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: derekwarner on May 17, 2019, 11:26:06 PM
Nick....the twin funnel heights shown in the first 2 images appear far lower in total height to that of the single funnel left in the last image


The funnel height difference is something like 160% taller in the last image


Derek 
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: warspite on May 18, 2019, 12:01:27 PM
I agree, it looks higher than the first pictures and slightly higher than the one I posted, I seem to think there is another funnel about an 1/8th of the diameter sticking up where the second funnel would be with a chamfered outlet, or maybe it just been removed to allow them to remove the boom which appears to be in parts partly behind on the jetty and to the left
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: pompey on July 13, 2019, 12:37:50 PM
I have a lot of info on floating cranes for the Admiralty, (I was the engineer on the steam operated Crane Lighter No 4 (CLIV), for 12 years). This was the one built to replace the CLIV lost in Malta in 1942. I have some drawings, and many pictures, also a good memory of her equipment and how she worked. She was a beautiful vessel. Get in touch if anyone is really interested in making a model.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: pompey on July 13, 2019, 12:49:10 PM
Here is the sister ship to the Floating Crane I was on!
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on July 13, 2019, 01:28:36 PM
Hi Pompey


Wow! She looks a proper vessel. Iíd be very much interested in drawings and any help to build a working model. Ever since I saw the side profile in a the Perkins book this intriguing vessel as piqued my interest.
The replacement CLIV 4 looks fantastic. What were they like to work on?
I love the unusual and this really ticks all the boxes for me.
Many thanks  :-))
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: pompey on July 13, 2019, 08:34:35 PM
My email address is pompeydigger@gmail.com. Please get in touch if you are serious about making a model of CLIV.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on July 13, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
Hi Pompey


Iíve emailed you. :-))
Best regards


Nick
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: pompey on July 13, 2019, 11:09:18 PM
I have emailed you back from a different email address as my tablet seems to have died!
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on September 25, 2019, 05:32:25 PM
Hi everyone


We started the crane build over the weekend, well the easy part of it anyway!
We decided to build to 1/96 scale for 1) practical size
                                                      2) matches the majority of my fleet


It is small in some dimensions but when complete the height will be close to 3ft!
The hull is essentially a barge measuring 24.9 inches long by 10 inches whilst the overall depth is only 2 inches! We have had loads of fun sticking the rubbing strips on, makes it look quite decorative.
At the moment the sides and bottom are 1/16Ē marine ply supported by 8mm square wood strips.
It will have lead ballast in the bottom and will be permanent with some to trim the model when we are finished.



Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: tigertiger on September 26, 2019, 02:20:00 AM
I know nothing about models of flat bottomed vessels, so feel free to ignore me. With the effects of wind and water being 'not to scale', is there a risk that the flat bottom and high crane sides will cause the barge to drift a lot if there is wind? If that is the case, would it help to add a long keel to the construction, even if not part of the original vessel?
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: derekwarner on September 26, 2019, 03:41:43 AM
Following on from the interesting and concise examples of flotation & rolling moments by Glynn Guest....we could consider the flat bottom crane barge of Nick B ......[and understanding 1 cubic " of water  = 0.036 lb]


25" length x 10" beam x 1" draft  = 250 cubic " or ~~ 9lb [water] weight displacement on a 250 square " footprint


If we maintain the length, halve the beam & double the draft.....


25" length x 5" beam x 2" draft = 250 cubic " or ~~ 9lb [water] weight displacement but on a 125 square " footprint

So any breeze [considered as constant] has to move the same 9lb of water friction against/over the surface of the underwater hull, however the righting forces are to the order of the same change in beam ratio & resultant surface footprint area of the hull in the water

Most un-powered barges have push/pull assistance movement by tug or tender vessel, or if stationary use of anchors or mooring wires for positional stability

1. I am pretty sure GG would concur with this premise
2. Nick.......how do these displacement estimates match your build considerations?

Derek
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: ballastanksian on September 30, 2019, 08:54:11 PM

Nick, Great start! What a whopper she will be when complete.


We need a topic or room just for all these useful formulae to drop into.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 02, 2019, 09:01:28 PM
Hi everyone


A bit late in my replies-sorry about that!


The crane is completely unpowered (other than to move the crane itself) and will be towed around the lake by a couple of 1/96 scale tugs I also have under construction. When not being towed it will be moored up thus negating any need for a keel or any form of anti drift tech.
Iím not sure about the rolling moments at the moment as I canít find the actual tonnage of this particular crane lighter, the original vessel I was asking about (CLIV) had a tonnage of about 3500 tons but it was a larger vessel. We know the waterline so we will see how much lead is required to get to it! Just got to get it fully waterproof. :-))
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: Capt Podge on October 02, 2019, 09:24:03 PM
When not being towed it will be moored up thus negating any need for a keel or any form of anti drift tech.



Just to clarify please Nick... do you intend mooring the barge away from the quayside or mooring up against it?
... just curious  %)


Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 02, 2019, 10:14:53 PM
Mmmmm, youíve got me thinking now! At Wicksteed we have a wooden strip to protect your boat from colliding with the concrete edge- it usually sits just beneath the waters surface. I have a feeling that the model will sit away from the edge of the lakeside when moored. I donít intend to moor up too far from the edge due to me probably having to get my feet wet! :D
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: Capt Podge on October 02, 2019, 10:30:09 PM
I see what you mean.
You could try attaching two chains to a weight - one chain goes to the vessel, the other (longer one) attaches to the shoreside.
Put the barge in the water, toss the weight whatever distance suits, remembering to hold onto the shoreside chain for securing in place.


I think that should work  %)

Then it's just a case of hauling in when you want the barge alongside.
Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: raflaunches on October 02, 2019, 10:40:58 PM
Hi Ray,


Iíll give that a go when the hull is fully waterproof- many thanks for the idea :-))
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: derekwarner on October 02, 2019, 11:40:11 PM
Nick....


If Ray is suggesting chain as a weight, remember when the presumed weight of anchor and chain is deployed to the bottom, the combined weight negative to the flotation of the vessel......chain out = displacement reduced = free board increased


 :o  .....if the vessel were tethered to a wharf [in a perfect world] the weight of chain is shared equally between the vessel & the wharf


1. Sharing equally means the vessels 1/2 alters it's displacement
2. The other 1/2 is neutral to the mass of the earth as the total mass was always there in the first place  :embarrassed:

I understand tethering usually refers to horses.,.....but am sure you get my drift  {-) 

Derek
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: Capt Podge on October 02, 2019, 11:49:48 PM
Some good info there Derek. Of course, the medium doesn't have to be chain - twine or something similar could be utilised, like the type used in fishing line / nets, just as long as it's waterproof  :-))


Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Floating Crane information
Post by: dodes on October 18, 2019, 02:58:21 PM
Hi Nick, looking forward to seeing your crane completed. Someone was mentioning wind effect, well that was always the problem with the real ones, one pilot moving CL5 at Devonport manage to get the crane driver to move the crane jib round , the pilot said it was then like sailing her. Usual power was a dog alongside with the stern overhanging a bit and a single unit tractor tug of the Felicity class in the bow.