Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: john44 on November 07, 2018, 02:55:33 pm

Title: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: john44 on November 07, 2018, 02:55:33 pm
Hi again, after looking I have decided on a 2 masted square rigger, I have located 2 hulls
1 is a ketch and 1 is a schooner. What would be the best option for a boat that sail,s well.


John
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tigertiger on November 08, 2018, 01:30:20 am
They both sail well.
Historic boats seem to show more Schooners, modern boats more Ketches.


In the real world, a ketch is easier to sail as you can easily drop the mizzen, or only use the mizzen depending on conditions. Not so easy with a schooner. Having said that, you may need to drop the mizzen on a ketch to sail close to the wind.


On a model, there are many considerations.
One is how it looks. Historic sailing ketches tend to have a much smaller mizzen than main, which is a less appealing look, in my mind. This is not always the case, but needs to be considered when choosing your sail plan. On more modern ketches they can be similar sized (if the foremast is well forward).
Connected to this, and for sailing, you can add more sail to a schooner by adding triangular topsails, if gaff rigged, and a square topsail on the fore if you so desire.
A schooner will sail closer to the wind more easily. Sometimes on a small lake, it makes a difference if you can tack in tighter spaces, instead of wearing.
Access to the RC gubbins below deck. In plan view (from above) sketch out your sail plan, including the placement of the standing and running rigging. Work out the size of your deck hatches, and think about how easy it will be to put your hand in to change batteries, switch switches, and even remove components if you need to.


Also. There is no reason why you should not use a schooner hull for a ketch and visa versa. In the real world, ships often changed their mast and sail plans over time.

Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: TomHugill on November 08, 2018, 12:43:59 pm
I'd always go for a schooner as to my eye they look better!
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: JayDee on November 08, 2018, 01:26:17 pm

Hello,


Build a Schooner !!!!!!!!!!.
I built one over 30 years ago - - - still going strong !!.


John.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tsenecal on November 08, 2018, 04:45:19 pm
I'd always go for a schooner as to my eye they look better!

i resemble that remark...

as you can see, this ketch is much fatter - not nearly as sleek as John's schooner.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: john44 on November 08, 2018, 06:46:56 pm
Best of show, the judges must have liked it, the schooner is way too big, for me anyway.


Thanks for your input towards my winter project


John
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tsenecal on November 08, 2018, 06:56:44 pm
Best of show, the judges must have liked it, the schooner is way too big, for me anyway.


Thanks for your input towards my winter project


John


schooners come in all sizes... not just "big"...
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: TomHugill on November 08, 2018, 07:39:48 pm
i resemble that remark...

as you can see, this ketch is much fatter - not nearly as sleek as John's schooner.


The Colin Archers more of a yawl.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tsenecal on November 08, 2018, 08:30:31 pm

The Colin Archers more of a yawl.


according to the informational notes in the instruction manual, its a ketch...


but, this being my one and only r/c scale sailboat, i have no idea what makes a ketch a ketch vs any other type of boat.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tigertiger on November 09, 2018, 12:58:21 am
[size=0pt]Both the yawl and the ketch [/size][size=0pt]have two masts, with the main mast foremost. The acknowledged distinction, particularly for yachts with overhanging sterns and inboard rudders, is that a ketch has the mizzen mast forward of the rudder post, whereas on a yawl, it is aft of the rudder post.[/size]
Source Wikipedia
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tigertiger on November 09, 2018, 01:13:00 am
Fatness has more to do with the length of hull of the original boat. Smaller working/fishing boats will always appear fat (especially double enders). If modelling a ship, it will be better to choose a hull for what would have been a ship, rather than a boat.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tsenecal on November 09, 2018, 02:20:09 am
rudder post on the colin archer is way aft of the mizzen mast...  it is mounted to the "transom" of the boat....  and even at the base of the keel, the rudder hinge is 3 inches aft of the mizzen mast.


thanks for the definition, it definitely proves what kind of boat the archer is.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: Eddie W on November 09, 2018, 12:39:41 pm
I've started a Billings Colin Archer and have put it in the "too difficult box" for the time being :(( However I still have my Robbe Atlantis that's a wonderful yacht to sail.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tsenecal on November 09, 2018, 06:10:55 pm
I've started a Billings Colin Archer and have put it in the "too difficult box" for the time being :(( However I still have my Robbe Atlantis that's a wonderful yacht to sail.

mine only took about 10 years, and throwing out the instruction manual once it came to rigging the sails....  blindly following hand drawn color separations of individual lines on the plans.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: TomHugill on November 09, 2018, 10:14:08 pm
Oh dear my formatting has gone awry!
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: Eddie W on November 09, 2018, 10:56:55 pm
mine only took about 10 years, and throwing out the instruction manual once it came to rigging the sails....  blindly following hand drawn color separations of individual lines on the plans.


Do yo have any more photos? Especially under the deck, sail control etc.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: john44 on November 13, 2018, 02:07:19 pm
Hi guys, taking the advice given I have taken the plunge and ordered a schooner hull with plans
From MBD. The model plans are for an MA James drawn by David Macgregar.
Has anyone built one of these as a square rigger or brigantine? If so any advice at all
would be very welcome.


John
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: JayDee on November 13, 2018, 04:09:54 pm

Hello,


Just to tempt you to build a Schooner !!!.


John,
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: john44 on November 13, 2018, 09:34:14 pm
Hi Jaydee what a nice boat.


John
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: john44 on November 16, 2018, 12:25:29 pm
Hi guys, I have been reading the September issue of model boats mag. Re:- square riggers.
Particularly the brace control, the images depict using 2 servos 1 for the formast and1 for the
Main mast, could anyone please elaborate on the image to include flying jib and mizzen control.
Would a 3 rd servo be required?
Many thanks for looking at this post.


John

Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tigertiger on November 16, 2018, 03:22:14 pm
There are variations.
Simplest is 1 for main mast square sails, another for fore mast sails, and a third for the rudder.
The jibs and stay sail can be fixed, hauled in. This way you can sail close to the wind, with only some loss of control at other points of sail. Same for the spanker sail (fore to aft sail) as the area of sail is relatively small.


Only the extremes of sail setting are really important, especially when you are close hauled. As you are not racing, as long as you are going forward that is the main thing.
The other thing to consider is playing with 3 servos (include one for the rudder) is complicated enough for many mere mortals. There are ways to offset the timing of the main and foremast sails, but those would need more research.
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: tigertiger on November 16, 2018, 03:34:31 pm
In contrast to a square rigger, fore-aft sail models are easier to control.
This is my schooner. I have one servo for the rudder, and a second one that controls all of the sails (main, fore, stay-sail, and jib).
Schooners are faster, and can sail much closer to the wind, and in much stronger wind conditions than a model square rigger.



Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: john44 on November 17, 2018, 11:45:06 am
Beautiful boat and excellent pictures, I have ordered a hull from M B D with plans for the
M A James top sail schooner, I also have the plans for the brigantine Raven. So I have a
choice of which one to build, I have not seen the plans for the schooner yet so I can,t
say which one I like best.


John
Title: Re: Ketch vs Schooner
Post by: john44 on February 07, 2019, 09:57:32 am
Hi guys I have decided on the brigantine, I will use 1 servo for the front square sails,
and 1 servo for the rest of the sails as on a schooner and hope it sails.


John