Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: CJK on March 03, 2019, 10:02:15 pm
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Transferred from Chit-Chat https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,62612.0.html (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,62612.0.html)
Observations:
She’s bow heavy. Water level about 4mm above the waterline at the bow and 6mm below at the stern.
Has a very very small seepage where the starboard prop tube goes through the hull.
Prop shaft inboard tube ends are 25mm below the waterline. Sings of water getting up there. How do you keep the water from traveling up the tubes? Starboard seems worse that port. See photo.
Rudder spindles are also below water line but seem to be leaking.
Electrics are a mess – no fuse protection at all. No switch on the battery cable. Components not secured properly.
From malcolmfrary..............
Bow heavy - the main contributor to the center of gravity is the battery - a lighter battery plus compensating ballast will allow this to be corrected by you being able to pick where the battery and ballast go.Seepages around prop and rudder tubes - application of epoxy to seal the gaps. Thinned slow epoxy to get into the probably very narrow gaps.
Water resistant grease is good for stopping water from getting up prop and rudder tubes - also good for lube. Look through the site search engine, there are as many preferred tube lube solutions as modellers.
I didn't see any in the pics, but I would look for some brass or stainless washers to use as thrust washers at both the inside and outside ends of the shaft. They also serve as seals when greased.
Other white metals apart from aluminium are steel and nickel silver, you find out which when the surface corrodes.
As an ex-electric tech, I have found that modern electrics in sedate models don't need much fixing down, just enough restraint to discourage them from wandering around. A bit of plastic channel from the useful bit at B&Q does that. The rubber band shown along with the natural stiffness of the wire will do a perfectly adequate job. Sometimes Blu-Tak does the job. Depends on whether or not anybody will be looking.
I am assuming two motors but one ESC. A fuse between Battery and ESC is usually surplus - it is only protecting against a faulty ESC. Fusing the individual motors is a good idea when there is more than one motor as it provides a handy test point..........................
Malcolm - Taking a closer look at where the SLA is placed I can now see that there are two pieces of plastic angle that are fixed 135mm apart (shown below) that is the length of a 6 cell rechargeable so I think its safe to say this boat has had a 7.2v battery in it before. As you and another have suggested to go that way that is what I will do. There is a weight difference of approx 320g, the Ni-MH being lighter. This alone may cure the COG problem but it may also make the boat sit a bit higher in the water. Would it be correct to say the closer the boat sits to the waterline the more stable it would be? Either way extra well placed ballast would sort it - yes?
Seepage is easily cured with filler as you suggest - I wont have any problems there.
Panic took over with the 'water up the stern tube' thing. Your advice and what Ive since gleaned from the internet has made me realise its no great deal if approached correctly. Various washers (nylon, neoprene and brass) have been ordered plus some prop grease.
You assumed correctly - two motors one SLC.
I have now decided to strip out the electrics, props and rudders to check everything and change if required.
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The trick with ballast is to get it as low as possible, preferably well spread out, and below the waterline. Models tend to sail in conditions that would be, if scaled up to full size, well beyond what any sensible skipper would ever consider going out in.
Bonus tip - when fitting props, make sure that locknuts are actually locked. Lots of props have been lost due to locknuts just being tightened. Use of thread locking compound helps as well.
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Welcome to the forum.
Long winded explanations and questions are fine by me .
The more information given should hopefully get you a more accurate answer/suggestion.
I'm glad you've started out straight away by posting photos . As the old adage goes, "A Picture Paints A Thousand..........".
My first thoughts on your prop shaft metallic dust were that it could be solder, if maybe the previous owner had tried to attach a Lube Tube to the prop shaft. However, it may be indicating that the inner shaft may no longer be straight and is catching on the inside of the outer tube. When you run the motors look/listen out for any untoward noises or vibrations.
Good luck with your model and any future builds,
Ian.
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Work still being done - slowly . The main reason is having to wait for bits and pieces ordered via the internet. So far I've been unable to find any local modelling shops that cater for rc boats - plenty that do trains and planes. The nearest is a 100 mile round trip! :(( I didn't realize how much kit you need when starting from scratch, luckily most of it is a one time expense.
Have decided to change the rudders to a double rod system and remount the servo. The double rods will give much easier access for individual adjustment - the servo will have a more robust fixing.
Have a couple of questions regarding the image below. The motors only have one capacitor apiece, is that sufficient?The blue and yellow cables coming from the ESC are heavy gauge and yet are connected to the motors by a much lighter gauge - that is confusing me? Incidentally I will be changing the connector to a better type - Tamiya maybe?
Hopefully the propshaft grease will come today and I can start fitting again.
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Pm sent.
Stan
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The ESC you have is capable of carrying a lot more current than the 385 motors will draw, so the cables fitted to both will be fine.
If you're using a 2G4 radio then you won't need any further suppression on the motors because that frequency is unaffected by RFI generated by the motor commutators.
I wouldn't fit Tamiya connectors for two reasons - they can slacken off and become unreliable over time, and you have similar connectors elsewhere which might result in plugging things into the wrong device. Choc blocks are great for domestic single-core copper cabling but I wouldn't let one within a mile of any multi-core flex unless you fit proper crimped bootlace ferrules to it first.
You might find this useful reading http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054 (http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054)
Dave M
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The ESC you have is capable of carrying a lot more current than the 385 motors will draw, so the cables fitted to both will be fine.
If you're using a 2G4 radio then you won't need any further suppression on the motors because that frequency is unaffected by RFI generated by the motor commutators.
I wouldn't fit Tamiya connectors for two reasons - they can slacken off and become unreliable over time, and you have similar connectors elsewhere which might result in plugging things into the wrong device. Choc blocks are great for domestic single-core copper cabling but I wouldn't let one within a mile of any multi-core flex unless you fit proper crimped bootlace ferrules to it first.
You might find this useful reading http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054 (http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054)
Dave M
If I may just clarify - simply put if it had bigger motors the motor wires would have to be bigger too? I'm sorry but I do not know what 2G4 means - its not mentioned in the radio handbook unless 2G4 is an abbreviation of something that is in there that I'm not recognizing - my TX is an FS-i6 and RX, FS-IA6 if that helps. The ESC is quite an old model I think and may need setting up to suit my radio. I can't find anything on the net about the M.sonik-3. However have found a instruction sheet for an M.sonik-4, am hoping that the setup will be the same - when I get time to reading it thoroughly.
Could you suggest another type of connector please? I would really like to get away from choc blocks.
Have seen and printed that article - found it interesting but wont fully understand everything in it until I have learnt some of the terminology.Colin
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HI Colin 2.4 refers to the new radio systems that are now in use no crystals are used in these sets. If you fit larger motors you may find the speedo will not be able to handle the current two motors draw. The speedo you have is about 10/15 years old and if it is a marine speedo it is rated at 20 amps. I may have some info on setting up your speedo please my pm to you.
Stan. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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Are 2.4GHz, that I recognize ;) . Wont be fitting different motors to this boat - its being used as a learning/practise mule. Have you read my intro in Chit Chat (link in first post this topic), that explains what I'm hoping to get from this boat, its just a means to gain a bit of knowledge before I 'lay the keel down' for my fist home built model.
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If I may just clarify - simply put if it had bigger motors the motor wires would have to be bigger too? I'm sorry but I do not know what 2G4 means - its not mentioned in the radio handbook unless 2G4 is an abbreviation of something that is in there that I'm not recognizing - my TX is an FS-i6 and RX, FS-IA6 if that helps. The ESC is quite an old model I think and may need setting up to suit my radio. I can't find anything on the net about the M.sonik-3. However have found a instruction sheet for an M.sonik-4, am hoping that the setup will be the same - when I get time to reading it thoroughly.
Could you suggest another type of connector please? I would really like to get away from choc blocks.
Have seen and printed that article - found it interesting but wont fully understand everything in it until I have learnt some of the terminology.Colin
Yes, if you fit a bigger (= more powerful) motor you may well need thicker wires. The ESC shouldn't need any setting up due to your radio - you should be able to plug the ESC into your receiver and crack on from there. Is your receiver bound to the transmitter? If they came as a set it should be, but if you bought them separately you will need to go through the binding procedure, which should be in the transmitter instructions. As already mentioned, 2G4 is a slightly lazy way of writing 2.4 GHz, which is the frequency that your transmitter and receiver operate on.
As for connectors, I suggest either Deans or XT60, both of which are more reliable than Tamiya and should handle any current you are likely to pass through them. You can buy them through many online shops such as Component Shop, Cornwall Model Boats or Hobbyking. You may have to brush up on your soldering, neither are the easiest to fit onto bare wires. Either make up a block of wood with a hole that holds the connector rigid as you solder, or clamp it to a flat surface.
Hope that helps a bit. Keep asking questions though, it's the best way to learn quickly.
Happy modelling
Greg
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Re: Soldering different types of connector.
There are some good instructional videos on Youtube.
Ian.
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While at the shopping and setting up stage, one item that should be in every home is a servo tester. If you don't mind the wait, cheap as chips from China. Cost a bit more from UK, but less wait. Great for setting up servos, but also good for testing ESCs and switchers without getting confused by the radio.
For suppression, I have never fitted 3, the extra two are only theoretically beneficial at best, and a fault liability at worst. Never had a problem, and I tend to go for cheap radios. Old, tired, worn motors are generally beyond saving by suppression, and need mending with a new one. While 2G4 radios operate well outside the frequencies generated by motors and are unaffected, there is a path for local interference via the "back door". Signal wiring can pick up stray noise, the semiconductors in the output stages of the radio can detect it and send the result back out as a spurious signal having amplified it.
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HI Colin You should be now on your way with your project. Its not rocket science just common sense and just remember one thing walk before you can run. Good luck with your project hope all goes well
Stan. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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I have a learnt a lot over the last few days thanks to input provided my members of this forum :-)) still have a long way to go, but enough to get Calypso on the water. My credit card has had a good caning getting bits, bobs and tools and there's still a way to go yet. :o Next in line is a Servo Tester and a Multi Tool. Ultimately I will need an Air Brush and Compressor, but that is some way off yet.
Ive decided you use TX150 connectors - yes I know they are BIG, but after watching soldering tips on Youtube I liked the fact you could remove the terminals to solder. Past soldering attempts suggest this is the best way for me to go.
Ref. servo testers; two choices (links below) - which would you choose, digital or analogue?
https://uk.banggood.com/HJ-Digital-Servo-Tester-or-ESC-Consistency-Tester-for-RC-Airplane-p-71970.html?gmcCountry=GB¤cy=GBP&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_bgcs&utm_content=garman&utm_campaign=pla-gbg-toy-brand-pc&cur_warehouse=CN (https://uk.banggood.com/HJ-Digital-Servo-Tester-or-ESC-Consistency-Tester-for-RC-Airplane-p-71970.html?gmcCountry=GB¤cy=GBP&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_bgcs&utm_content=garman&utm_campaign=pla-gbg-toy-brand-pc&cur_warehouse=CN)
or
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-servo-tester.html?countrycode=GB&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjYirz-zw4AIVSbTtCh2fOg9AEAQYASABEgKuLvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&___store=en_us (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-servo-tester.html?countrycode=GB&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjYirz-zw4AIVSbTtCh2fOg9AEAQYASABEgKuLvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&___store=en_us)
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Have a look at the Component shop website they sell a cheap one Ive got one and it is superb
https://www.componentshop.co.uk/servo-tester.html?___SID=U
Dave
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Information on how to contact c/shop already passed along with many more contact numbers to help this member with his project. But thank you for the link.
Stan
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The "analogue" ones sit there and work, relying on you looking at the mark on the knob or a spare servo arm to gauge what should be happening on the item being tested or set up. The digital one tells you the pulse width being sent via its display.
Mine was a couple of quid from fleabay with a couple of weeks wait. You makes your choice and you pays your money.
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The "analogue" ones sit there and work, relying on you looking at the mark on the knob or a spare servo arm to gauge what should be happening on the item being tested or set up. The digital one tells you the pulse width being sent via its display.
Mine was a couple of quid from fleabay with a couple of weeks wait. You makes your choice and you pays your money.
'Pulse width', I'm sure that would be really useful if I knew what it meant %) :} I think I'll go for the simple one - simple suits my style. :embarrassed:
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'Pulse width', I'm sure that would be really useful if I knew what it meant %) :} I think I'll go for the simple one - simple suits my style. :embarrassed:
Extract from the article which you printed out: "You can’t just connect a load like a bulb to the output pins of a receiver and expect it to operate when you move the transmitter stick, because the receiver is not itself a switch. It puts out a signal voltage pulse through one wire of each channel’s connectors. The length of these pulses is varied by movement of the stick or switch on the transmitter and ranges typically between 1 and 2 thousandths of a second (1-2mS) as you move the stick. The other two wires of the channel’s output are at 0v and +5v all of the time. In order to make sense of this variable signal pulse the device which is plugged into the receiver needs a circuit to detect it, decode it and change it to drive an output which can be used by the load. In a servo this output drives the servo motor. In a radio-controlled switch it operates either an electromechanical relay or a semiconductor which, in turn, switches an external circuit e.g. lights, winch motor, sound unit."
"Pulse width" in this context means the same as pulse length i.e. somewhere between 1 and 2 milliseconds. You don't need anything as sophisticated as the 'digital' one.
DM
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'Pulse width', I'm sure that would be really useful if I knew what it meant %) :} I think I'll go for the simple one - simple suits my style. :embarrassed:
When you get a drawing of a pulse, the lump in the drawn line goes so far across the page. Depending on the direction that you are looking at the picture from, that distance can be either the "length", or the "width". Wonderful language, English.
But the simple option will work perfectly well. Sometimes, it helps to plug a spare servo in one of the extra outlets so that you get a view of what it is actually doing and you can tell if the thing being tested is behaving as it should, or, since it needs to be tested, just how it is misbehaving. The digital one tells you in precise detail, using the arm of a known good servo is, for all practical purposes, just as useful.
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Hi just have simple servo tester works fine nothing to fancy.
Stan.
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Information on how to contact c/shop already passed along with many more contact numbers to help this member with his project. But thank you for the link.
Stan
Not in this thread unless I've missed it?
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HI Chrisf having spoken to cjk all contact numbers were passed by phone.
Stan.
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Other posters wouldn't have known that though Stan.
Chris
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Sorry for not posting contact numbers but I am sure many regular members will know these numbers off by heart.
Stan.
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Came to a decision to get Calypso up and running asap with all of the old running gear but to try and lay it out a bit better, reason - I really want to get on with my own build. Consequently I am not changing the battery or fitting fuses, switches etc etc.
Please watch a video (link below), The motor drive is not right - its noisy and one prop is lazy in forward and reverse. This was like it when first tried before taking anything apart. The propshafts were very dry and I thought this could be the 'laziness' and maybe noise as well.
Props lubed with prop grease, checked shaft/ prop has end play in tube - the problems are still there. Was wondering if its the universal joints - maybe the rubber tube type would help. Hope I'm making sense!
Any thoughts please?
https://youtu.be/UVeOMDgj4Y8 (https://youtu.be/UVeOMDgj4Y8)
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WHY Have we gone secret squirrel all of a sudden it goes against the ethos of Mayhem where we all share information doing it by Pm is not cricket in MY opinion....no phone numbers are needed just company and shop details.....even the OP can source these form the internet
Dave
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WHY Have we gone secret squirrel all of a sudden it goes against the ethos of Mayhem where we all share information doing it by Pm is not cricket in MY opinion....no phone numbers are needed just company and shop details.....even the OP can source these form the internet
Dave
No PM's just a phone call where much more was spoken about than this thread. It just so happened that during this conversation a few phone numbers were given. Not going secret squirrel - personal stuff that strayed for a moment.
Hopefully we can let this go it really doesn't amount to anything.
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If you disconnect the prop shaft and coupling from the noisy/slow motor, then run it again. this will prove whether it is the prop shaft or the motor that is causing the problem.
You could also try measuring the current (amps) that the motor is pulling.
Ian.
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If you disconnect the prop shaft and coupling from the noisy/slow motor, then run it again. this will prove whether it is the prop shaft or the motor that is causing the problem.
You could also try measuring the current (amps) that the motor is pulling.
Ian.
Ian, I ran the motors before connecting the shafts - just a normal motor sound.
Thinking more about it, could it just be sound resonating in the hull when out of water, something like a sound box. I would imagine that when afloat water would act as a sound damper? Could the hesitancy of one shaft be because there is only one ESC? I'm shooting in the dark with this :embarrassed:
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The sound could be amplified slightly but, it shouldn't sound that rough. There is something wrong with the motor/shaft that is noisy and struggling to move.
The ESC could be struggling to supply both motors. I would check to see if the motors are connected to the ESC in series or parallel and maybe check that all electrical connections are "good". Try disconnecting the noisy motor, then run the quiet one on it's own. That will give you an idea of how it should sound and how loud it should be.
Having not built this model yourself, you will have no idea of how it should/ did sound when first built or of any faults/ problems that have occurred or changes made during it's life. I would be tempted to remove all of the parts from the model and run them "on the bench" . Making sure that the ESC is compatible with the motors and is capable of running two of them.
Refering to youtube (again) may answer a lot of your questions. You may need to purchase new motors/shafts and compatible ESC, to get over this.
Ian.
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The sound could be amplified slightly but, it shouldn't sound that rough. There is something wrong with the motor/shaft that is noisy and struggling to move.
The ESC could be struggling to supply both motors. I would check to see if the motors are connected to the ESC in series or parallel and maybe check that all electrical connections are "good". Try disconnecting the noisy motor, then run the quiet one on it's own. That will give you an idea of how it should sound and how loud it should be.
Having not built this model yourself, you will have no idea of how it should/ did sound when first built or of any faults/ problems that have occurred or changes made during it's life. I would be tempted to remove all of the parts from the model and run them "on the bench" . Making sure that the ESC is compatible with the motors and is capable of running two of them.
Refering to youtube (again) may answer a lot of your questions. You may need to purchase new motors/shafts and compatible ESC, to get over this.
Ian.
Latest tests:
1> Motors not driving shafts - just normal motor whine.
2> Swapped motors and couplings to other shafts. (this made shafts counter rotate obviously)
3> Swapped motors back leaving couplings on shafts.
4> Disconnected motors in turn. (i.e. one disengaged from coupling) - both shafts are noisy.
5> Put everything back as was.
2, 3 & 4 - Made no difference. 5 - Tightened mounts taking care to align motors/couplings up with the shafts as best as I could (there was a bit if wiggle room on the screw holes) - noise still there but hesitancy on one shaft less. Maybe suggests an alignment issue originally.
I think your last couple of paragraphs are about right. The guy I got this from was really into trains, the boat was his first and and only and got for his Son 18 years ago. It was used four times in a local pond (so he claimed) and then unused since. So everything RC is 18 years old and likely left attended for most of that time. As you say I have no history with this boat which doesn't make anything easy for me. Thanks for your help.
Its definitely time to start my own build but I need to sort the ballast out on this one first - will leave this to my next post. ;)
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when I first built my model it was quite noisy, eventually I found that running with a light ish oil on the bearings helped, and I tuned the motor position using an ammeter on the motor and adjusting until the load was least, also the coupling types makes a difference to noise
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This one could be of serious help to you and worth a try.......get some heatshrink to fit your couplings and shrink them down with a heat gun,his should quieten the couplings down,had a similar problem with a pair of brushless motors where the couplings were noisy,every boat I now build has heatshrink on all the couplings
Dave
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I played around with the tightness of the motor mount screws and the 'laziness' to get going of the one shaft has almost gone - a little more playing may sort it completely.
when I first built my model it was quite noisy, eventually I found that running with a light ish oil on the bearings helped, and I tuned the motor position using an ammeter on the motor and adjusting until the load was least, also the coupling types makes a difference to noise
Unfortunately my multimeter only measures in mA so I cant do that at the moment
.......get some heatshrink to fit your couplings and shrink them down with a heat gun...........
Dave
That is definitely worth a try as one of the couplings is a loose fit - the brass ends actually just fall out, no need to pull them apart.
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Then that's something else for your shopping list. This one is silly money https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Ammeter-AC-DC-OHM-Current-Circuit-Buzzer-Tester/372613494270 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Ammeter-AC-DC-OHM-Current-Circuit-Buzzer-Tester/372613494270)
Dave M
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Then that's something else for your shopping list. This one is silly money https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Ammeter-AC-DC-OHM-Current-Circuit-Buzzer-Tester/372613494270 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Ammeter-AC-DC-OHM-Current-Circuit-Buzzer-Tester/372613494270)
Dave M
Oh dear, :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: just checked my multimeter. :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: sometimes I really do question my sanity!
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Oh dear, :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: just checked my multimeter. :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: sometimes I really do question my sanity!
Just goes to show, a learning curve is a real thing. When you have survived as many mistakes as the rest of us, you will have stopped being a "Newbie".
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Just remember to move the red lead to the 10A socket before you start , and move it back when you have finished, most modern meters will prompt you when you turn to the 10A setting
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Have been away for the weekend on biker business but still couldn't get my noisy propshafts out of my mind - sad innit' %)
Anyway, got straight onto it this morning and checked motor and prop shaft alignment. Horizontal OK but vertical all wrong so adjusted the angle on the motor brackets and I think its done!
WAS - https://youtu.be/UVeOMDgj4Y8 (https://youtu.be/UVeOMDgj4Y8) NOW https://youtu.be/Es5tQwKZQdk (https://youtu.be/Es5tQwKZQdk)
I have learnt a lot from this little exercise. :}
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Have been a bit quiet lately, the main cause being collecting tools and materials to enable things to progress. Motive gear is working pretty well now and ballast is sorted - I managed to use a bit less lead than the amount previously used. Water line is now equal bow to stern at approx 3mm above water level.
Would have put her in the pond today if I had the body filler to stop the proboscis on the bow from letting in water. Will be able to sort that tomorrow once filler is collected.
Weather permitting she will be launched on Wednesday - that should give the other modellers a bit of entertainment :embarrassed: . Am now looking at where I go from here, Calypso was only ever to be a stop gap until my first build. I am leaning heavily towards MTB's, I will need a lot of advise soon :} .
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HI CJK
Would you be going down the plan route? If you are then I have a set of plans that may be of interest to you.
Fred
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HI CJK
Would you be going down the plan route? If you are then I have a set of plans that may be of interest to you.
Fred
Hi Fred,
If only I was a good enough modeller, I'm afraid scratch building is well out of my league right now. Ive not built any kind of model boat - not even an Airfix :embarrassed: .
I much appreciate your offer though - maybe one day ;) .
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OK
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Not been on here for a while mainly because the boat has been ready for sea trial's but have had trouble getting it on the water. Unfortunately it seems the local model boat club I was about to join are largely a sailing boat club although the word ‘motor’ is prominent in the clubs name.
For the last few weeks I've taken the boat to the pond and lake that the club uses, every time either no one there at all or all sail, no motor. Just didn't fancy launching for the first time with no other motor boats there to help retrieve my stricken boat if it happened. However yesterday there were a couple of guys at the pond whom I'd spoken to before and they had motor boats, yippee! So in it went.
All went well but it's not very fast, I would guess scale speed was about it and to be expected I suppose as it is running 6v SLA with 12v motors. Biggest relief - it was watertight and I had the ballast about right.
So it's time to move on and to choose my first own build. I have thought about it for a while and I'm drawn heavily towards PT/MTB's. Taking into account my lack of modelling knowledge I think starting with a plastic kit would be wise – something like the Italeri PT-109 - cheap enough to mess up completely if things don't work out. I would like to add a bit of 'complication' to test my skills by going triple motor and maybe use a couple more than the basic two channels for something extra…… we will see!
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Theres quite a bit of figuring to do with a kit PT boat to both make it work and keep the wet out and more detail than you might want for a first try.
In the past, Graupner did some nice performance boats. When they went away, something remarkably similar appeared in eastern Europe, and has resurfaced here - http://www.amera.co.uk/product.php?range=w (http://www.amera.co.uk/product.php?range=w) - the Huntsman 31 should be a good go-er as well as looking good. A low cost learning curve, but one that will give a lot of useful learning.
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At £32 certainly worth considering. :-))
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Decision made and kit being delivered tomorrow. Being a 'diving in the deep end' type, Ive gone for the Italeri PT-109 - the 'deep end' approach has largely worked for me in the past with pretty much everything Ive done - I just hope it will be the same this time. ;D
I don't know that I will be doing a build sequence on here, its all been done before and by far more capable modellers that me. However I'm pretty sure I will need advice and guidance so there will be posts from me asking for help.
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Well what a disappointment! Kit received and contents checked - all good so far. Started construction on Friday, first stage drill out holes through deck for attachment of top side parts - still good. Come to fit the deck to the hull - disaster! The hull is approx 16mm narrower than the deck (see image). I managed to push and pull the hull sides to get the deck mounted with the 7 self-tapping fixings supplied but on release the hull sprung back to its original shape. Four of the screws are hidden under some of the deck fittings so they cant be used in the final build as the deck needs to be removable to get at the RC conversion stuff. The plan was to use magnets to secure the deck but they would definately not be strong enough to correct the hull misalignment.
I have emailed the kit supplier and am awaiting a reply.
Not a good start to my model making efforts! {:-{
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Hi
Try fitting the deck again then place the hull with the deck still fitted and sink into hot water, with any luck it may pull the hull into line with deck.
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I was going to say that might be a good choice of kit. I recently finished the 1:48 Merit 80' elco and on the water it's stonking with a 400 brushed motor and 1,600mAh mini 7.2v Ni-Mh (shock horror: not brushless, LiPo or even 2.4Ghz!).
I wouldn't knock the kit too much just yet. Quite normal for parts to distort slightly*, what answer do you need from the kit supplier? Not even sure if it's made for R/C so you always have to think laterally when doing so. From previous experience I wouldn't have the whole deck come off. On my slightly smaller one I discarded the kit deck and cut one from 1mm polystyrene sheet -saved a small ammount of weight and meant I could cut proper deck openings much easier than cutting the supplied deck.
If you want to continue with having the whole deck release, you might want to think ahead a bit about some extra stiffening (particularly if you hit something), and how you intend to keep water out of the join. Also, if you're using screws in my experience screws into plastic (polystyrene) always start stripping after they've been in and out a few times. Might want to think of a way to use captive nuts and small machine screws.
*Initially, the fit of the kit deck on the hull was pretty much the same on my Merit kit as yours and it wouldn't hold in the "nubs" without popping out.
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In reply to both posts -
Fred
Try fitting the deck again then place the hull with the deck still fitted and sink into hot water, with any luck it may pull the hull into line with deck.I did wonder about doing this but was afraid that if the hot water marked, distorted or did something to the hull, any chance of me exchanging it would be gone. I may speak to the supplier tomorrow and see what they think.
RST
I wouldn't knock the kit too much just yet. Quite normal for parts to distort slightly*, what answer do you need from the kit supplier?I'm hoping they will offer to replace the hull.
Not even sure if it's made for R/C so you always have to think laterally when doing so. My choice of this kit came from a build series on this forum by 'Stan', he did a lovely PT-596 in 2016. I spoke to him last weekend and he said the deck and hull fitted perfectly. I also watched a Youtube vid of a guy that built PT-109 kit (I think both kits use the same hull and deck mouldings). He also claimed that the two items fitted perfectly.
From previous experience I wouldn't have the whole deck come off. On my slightly smaller one I discarded the kit deck and cut one from 1mm polystyrene sheet -saved a small amount of weight and meant I could cut proper deck openings much easier than cutting the supplied deck.Unfortunately my scratch build abilities do not give me that kind of option, this is my 1st attempt at scale modelling of anykind.
If you want to continue with having the whole deck release, you might want to think ahead a bit about some extra stiffening (particularly if you hit something), and how you intend to keep water out of the join. Also, if you're using screws in my experience screws into plastic (polystyrene) always start stripping after they've been in and out a few times. Might want to think of a way to use captive nuts and small machine screws.
Extra stiffing was planned (advice of this mentioned in Stan's build) and water sealing (that to be worked out yet). Your suggestion for captive nuts etc is noted. I could place these away from the deck fittings that cover the existing self tappers.
*Initially, the fit of the kit deck on the hull was pretty much the same on my Merit kit as yours and it wouldn't hold in the "nubs" without popping out.
The attached image gives a better idea of the extent of the problem. My first idea was to place a couple of 'stretchers' between the screw bosses, these to stretch the hole pitches to match the deck. As you can see this waist's the hull sides between the screws - no good!
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CJK -these problems with the deck are not insurmountable. Good luck with a replacement, just don't do anything so the full kit can't be returned!
For the route I recommended it's totally, easy-peasy. I hate cutting plastic kit injection mouldings, it's quite hard and thick, knives skid once and you're left with a horrid scratch to fill. You can get long sheets of thin polystyrene for a few £ (the spare material comes in handy later). Trace the kit deck onto the sheet with a propelling pencil. I cut out the new deck with kitchen scissors. Cutting new openings and gluing in some waterproofing is then a doddle on a decent cutting mat with a stanley knife, buy some 2mm square evergreen profile pack and glue that a few mm inside the new deck so the kit hull has something to conform to and it might pull most if not all the deformation out. Good strengthening for MEK or Dichloromethane solvent weld to adhere to also (don't use airfix type cement please!).
If you're a total starter what are you intending for running gear? I recommend you use a single slimline 4mm Caldercraft type shaft. Not sure on the size of your hull but I'd try and cut down and file an off the shelf brass rudder rather than make your own.
If you can save a few grams here and there it all counts on a small, fast model. And good access to the inside is key. You might also consider rationalising the amount of detail as it's everything to be damaged accidentally.
My 1:48 with the Ripmax 400 motor has 50% of the hull out of the water on full chat. About as much as the hull would take I think and much quicker than I expected -you wouldn't want any quicker on that model. Any more power, and some full speed turns generated aeration at the prop. I got 20mins out of my mini 1,600mAh Ni-Mh 7.2v stick but that was not 100% throttle all of the time.
Hopefully you get somewhere with this. Distortion is common! I always ask to open the boxes I look at to check before I buy, otherwise it's judgment if it can be fixed. I don't think you've taken the easist route as a starter though. BUT my first R/C model when I was in my early teens was the small Billings Waveney lifeboat -model shop owner laughed at me in front of my Father for thinking it could be R/C'd -and looking back it wasn't for a beginner (very thin plastic and not easy to waterproof the parts I made removable), but I did it and it sailed fine for years, and that was way before mini/micro R/C gear or Ni-Cd batteries with decent capacity was affordable to proletarians!
Hope these ideas help,
Rich
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See link to my build https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,51992.0.html Please note never had any problems with deck not fitting on this build. Placing the hull in warm water may solve the problem. But if it goes wrong then the customer may have no come back on the supplier.
Stan.
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From previous experience I wouldn't have the whole deck come off. On my slightly smaller one I discarded the kit deck and cut one from 1mm polystyrene sheet -saved a small amount of weight and meant I could cut proper deck openings much easier than cutting the supplied deck. Unfortunately my scratch build abilities do not give me that kind of option, this is my 1st attempt at scale modelling of any kind.
You might surprise yourself. Tracing round the hull on to a sheet of styrene is not rocket science, as a bonus you get a slightly wider hull. A skill gained. After one experience with a fully removeable deck lacking sealed edges, I would never go down that route again unless there was absolutely no alternative. If the kit as supplied is capable of being completed as intended by the manufacturer to the intended standard, then a hull that is going to be under a bit of tension when displayed is not something that the manufacturer would be troubled by.
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Thanks for the replies. I don't want to seem ungrateful or uncompromising, after all I'm the novice here and will rely on advice for some time, but the problem is the hull - not the deck. Making a new deck to have better access so that it can be permanently fixed may be simple but making the on deck superstructure to suit the wider opening isn't - well for me anyway. The superstructure isn't that wide hence the width of the opening in the deck (see below). Having a removable deck gives the maximum access and is the best way to go in my opinion. The only problem is getting there with a hull that is so badly mishapped. As for sealing, there are silicon based jointing compounds that are easily removed after disassembling. The deck would only come off for repair/maintenance. Regular stuff like battery removal/charging and lubrication would be done via removable superstructure.
Whilst I have to agree this is a static kit, I would argue that a moulding that is 16mm undersized to its corresponding mating part is not acceptable. The kit is advertised as suitable for 14 plus years , would a 14 year old be expected to be able to correct that kind of discrepancy?
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where the joining screws are that you wont be able to get to, can you fit small locating pins to hold the hull in the correct position, rather than screws?
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where the joining screws are that you wont be able to get to, can you fit small locating pins to hold the hull in the correct position, rather than screws?
Possibly. It would mean making all of the superstructure mouldings removable so that the sides of the hull could be pushed into alignment with my fingers - this is how I fixed the deck the first time round. Not ideal as it took quite a bit of force to achieve - but if the supplier refuses to supply a new hull it might be the only option.
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You have started going the right way by fitting braces across the hull to widen it. The problem is that this will distort the hull as the braces are acting only at their ends.
First fit a wood strip round the inside of the hull at deck level. Now when you fit the braces the wood strips will form a curve keeping the hull shape. The wood strips can also be used to take screws to hold down tthe deck instead of using those moulded to the hull. You can then fit screws where they can be easily reached. Also a this gives a larger surface for the deck to seal down to if you something like vaseline to act as a waterproofer. An alternative is silicone bath sealant which can be easily cut if the deck needs to be removed.
I have added some photos to show the principle of this, although the hull shape is different from yours it will still work in your case.
Jim
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Thank's Jim, more knowledge for me to log in my memory.
As it stands I have spoken to the supplier of the kit (Model Hobbies - Stoke-on-Trent), they were very helpful and said they would look into the problem, so will have to see how it turns out. At the end of the day I would be prepared to pay for a new hull if it were possible.
Bloody annoying as I cant get on with anything.
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I doubt you'll get a new hull but maybe. If you want to wait then don't open anything in case they want the lot back. My suggestion for the deck cures multiple issues and I wouldn't have suggested that way if it was hassle. Dead easy if you look at the pics but I suppose it leaves lines on the deck. Means you don't have to Faff with making the relatively small deck housings waterproof though. Good luck. Might be better to start a specific thread if you want to document the build.
Rich
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Got a reply from supplier of kit, Model Hobbies Ltd - Stoke-on-Trent, they have arranged a replacement hull foc - should get it in the next few days.
I have to say they have been most helpful and understanding about this problem and couldn't have done any better. Even the initial service was top notch - good comms from order placing to delivery and then sorting with the importer - The Hobby Company.
Highly recommended.
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Always Worth an ask initially at least. Often all it takes. Well done tell us the sequel. O0 :}
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Tried the deck on the replacement hull today - fitted perfectly. :} This is going to make the rest so much easier. Just got to find the time now, good weathers here and I'm being called to help in the garden. {:-{
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Thats a great outcome. Do you have to return the old one? If not, bonus, and a great start for your next project -very easy to customise into something else!
Rich
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That's a great outcome. Do you have to return the old one? If not, bonus, and a great start for your next project -very easy to customise into something else!
Rich
Well they haven't asked for it to be sent back. Not sure I would use it anyway - 1:35 is a bit small for my failing body/eyes <:( . I think the next one will likely be 1:24 - everything just that little bit bigger.
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Progressing, but slowly :embarrassed:
Fitted the rudder tubes today and now have turned to rudders themselves. I wanted to make my own and am using 3mm rod and 0.80mm sheet. Have taken the shape of the standard kit part and increased by approx 50%, can someone please advise if this increase will be sufficient before I make all three?
Thanks
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Having now looked at Stan's Elco conversion I can see that first attempt was hopeless {-) I don't know how many might have viewed the post but I bet those that did had a good laugh.
Anyway version 2 below - I think it looks a lot more promising.
I will be soldering a brass washer between blade and shaft once the final shape is settled.
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HI It looks fine to me. Do not apologise for your first attempt we have all been in that position at some time.
Stan. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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Having fine examples to get ideas from helps Stan. :}
Thats a great outcome. Do you have to return the old one? If not, bonus, and a great start for your next project -very easy to customise into something else!
Rich
The old one has really came in handy actually Rich, I was dreading having to cut the slots in the hull for the prop tubes as I imagined making a complete cock up. In the end it went OK but being able to practice made a big difference. :-))
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Well I have actually used my new airbrush for the first time - in fact 1st airbrushing ever, must admit I was bottling it :embarrassed: . In the end it worked out OK after taking Stan's advise to 'take it steady' :-))
Primered with Tamiya rattlecan grey primer then top coat on upper section with Tamiya XF-53 Neutral Grey. This was the nearest I could get to US Navy Measure 1, Dark Grey 5-D - the colour that PT's were on leaving the factory as far as I can tell. They were painted green later.
On advise from a fellow local model club member, I thinned down with IPA to 50/50, it seems to work OK but what do I know. Have got Halfords red primer for below water line.
Even at 50/50 I was supprised at the amount of paint needed. I bought 2 x 10ml bottles thinking that would be OK - I will use 1½ bottles just for the hull and still have the deck to do yet. :o
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To solve both problems, get a sheet of 1.5 or 2mm styrene from model suppliers and, using the deck as a template, draw around it and then draw inside that line so you make a second deck that sits down a couple of mm inside the hull - this will straighten out the wonky edges when glued in place - use liquid poly to capillary action sucks the glue into the seam.
Once it's dry, you can cut/Dremel a large amount of that plastic out to make a strong ribbed support structure with good access into the bottom of the hull. fit some extra ribs to the underside of that false deck like the strengthening in a classical guitar soundboard.
Around the inside edges or the hull you can fit self-adhesive foam strip to act as a gasket and the original deck can then sit on top - it will locate properly into the straightened hull and a couple of self-tappers will hold it in place.
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More assistance please.
This model painting business isn't as easy as decorating the house that's for sure. %)
Model all top coated now - fitted decals and started to matt lacquer and got a reaction with the decals. Luckily noticed it in time and managed to salvage them. Its my own fault as I'm using Tamiya rattle can lacquer and I started without reading the instructions - "don't use over decals" :embarrassed: .
So advice please on what to use over Tamiya Acrylics and Italeri (or any other) decals. Now Ive gained a bit of experience with my airbrush I would be happy to use it for finishing rather than rattle cans.
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They say that Google is your friend and so it was in this case, after a bit of digging I found an explanation. Strange thing is the warning to not use Tamiya rattle can lacquer over decals is only on the matt can, not the gloss ???
Apparently the problem was because I applied a coat that was too wet, a couple of prior dust coats works OK. In any case I'm going to try an alternative and the place where I bought my airbrush sells Lifecolor Clear Coat and Washes and will speak to them tomorrow about suitability over Tamiya acrylics.
Almost finished painting, just weathering and final matt top coat to do. I'm reasonable pleased with my first attempt, honestly thought I was going to cock it up.
I didn't fit the canon on the deck front as that was added much later in the boats life, this does make it a bit bare so I'm thinking of finding a life raft to place there instead. I think you can get them from Shapeway?
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HI CJK looking very good so good you can build my next model.
Stan.
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HI CJK looking very good so good you can build my next model.
Stan.
HA, what pills you on Stan. :}
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You may struggle with decals on a matt surface anyway. Fairly std practice waterslide decals should be on satin or gloss surface and varnished over after. Otherwise they don't take (oodles of info out there on this). I use the decal solvent promoters / dissolvers also. Think it's from micromark (not near it now to check) > a world of difference with to without, it dissolves the backing and the decal conforms and sticks like the provervial. After which you still need a coat of varnish to fix / seal. Can't help you much with varnish apart from vallejo polyurethane. I still try to keep using oil based tinlets otherwise as much as I can, top varnish of polyurethane, just where it needs it usually.
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Was hoping to get this job finished today - 99% there and I knocked over a desk lamp right on top of the rear 50cal MG's, snapped the MG mount clean off and part of the guard rail <:( - back the work bench.
The rest went OK.
After the repair and getting an extension lead for the rudder servo, it will be finished - fingers crossed.
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You really must try harder CJK not to knock things off >:-o >:-o >:-o >:-only joking. On the plus side for your first build and taking advice on all aspects of the build you have made a fantastic job and you should feel proud. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Stan.
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Yep, agree it looks great. And you must learn one thing in the hobby, the more important or delicate something is, you're guaranteed it's going to be the one random thing you accidentally knock or break!
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Oh by the way my first model was the little billings lifeboat. "Un RC able" at the time. If you want a way of sealing that deck you could look at artists masking fluid. It will seal the join, but not permanently and you paint it on with a brush each time, 5 mins to dry. Worked for me on lots of small models before, not sure if I mentioned it before.
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All done with help from Mayhem members, particularly Stan who has 'held my hand' a lot when needing instant advice. :-))
This does now leave me in a quandary though. Putting the Calypso onto water (I bought this as a runner to tide me over until PT-109 was finished), I now realise that the RC bit of model boating just doesn't do anything for me. The building I have really enjoyed and I know there's still a long long way for me to go before I get even half the abilities shown on Mayhem - so modelling I do want to continue with. Realising this, it doesn't seem prudent to put RC kit into a model when it will never be put in water - well not by me anyway.
Is there still a future for me in Mayhem?
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HI cjk thank you for your comments I will always help were possible. In relation to you not wishing to fit r/c in models this to me is no problem. Over the years I have seen some very fine static models so my answer is carry on enjoying the hobby and share any future projects with us.
Stan. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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CJK, as Stan says you can build as much as you want, whether you R/C or not is up to you. We all aspire to the levenl of detail on professional or museum models. 99.9999 of my time is spent building and not sailing and thinking about it I like some aspects of building more. Just pick your balance point. Other folk post up builds of static models -look at the London bus thread for one!
....There is something nice about seeing a model like that dances across the water though. I don't think you went the right way with your Calypso if I recall which might have introduced more troubles and hassles than it was worth as a rank beginner.
Just keep building whatever you like really. Perhaps stick with kits though as you seem maybe a bit timid to stray too far? You only learn by trying so nothing ventured, nothing gained next time! Give it a go.