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Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: jaymac on April 02, 2019, 06:46:08 PM

Title: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: jaymac on April 02, 2019, 06:46:08 PM
https://www.zdnet.com/article/hackers-reveal-how-to-trick-a-tesla-into-steering-towards-oncoming-traffic/?ftag=TRE-03-10aaa6b&bhid=2239989673740068533761074679705 (https://www.zdnet.com/article/hackers-reveal-how-to-trick-a-tesla-into-steering-towards-oncoming-traffic/?ftag=TRE-03-10aaa6b&bhid=2239989673740068533761074679705)
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: imsinking on April 02, 2019, 07:55:45 PM
What sane person would want to do this anyway ?
Bill
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 02, 2019, 09:36:30 PM
There are plenty of insane people who would!


But what worries me is the blithe assumption that there will be a human constantly ready to take control and correct any errors.


Either the car is self driving or it isn't. If the automatic system has a wobbly in a potential collision scenario then the chances of the human being able to evaluate the hazard and take instant action to avoid it is practically non existent. And that assumes that the human is actually looking at the road and not their phone or reading the paper.


Colin
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: imsinking on April 03, 2019, 12:37:44 AM
Unfortunately the powers that be seem to want us all to be 'managers' rather than drivers / pilots or what ever , the more automation there is the more chance of something serious going wrong , the Air France flight 442 for instance, or that idiot in a Winnebago that set 'cruise control' and went back to make a coffee the list goes on and on . . . Surely we must think for ourselves . . .
Bill
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: TailUK on April 03, 2019, 10:11:29 AM
Self driving cars shot right into the top three "World's Worst Ideas" 
The capacity for chaos by hacking the onboard systems of modern vehicle is terrifying, all vehicles (air/land or sea) should only be accessible by direct physical connection.  Remote access is just to risky.  Imagine terrorists gaining access to the steering of a 70,000 ton LPG carrier. 
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: malcolmfrary on April 03, 2019, 10:49:13 AM
Self driving cars shot right into the top three "World's Worst Ideas" 
The capacity for chaos by hacking the onboard systems of modern vehicle is terrifying, all vehicles (air/land or sea) should only be accessible by direct physical connection.  Remote access is just to risky.  Imagine terrorists gaining access to the steering of a 70,000 ton LPG carrier.
To look at the pitfalls of automated transport, just think back to old episodes of Thunderbirds.  The "70000 ton LPG carrier" reminded me, one episode had a rather larger vessel carrying something 'orrible trying to demolish Sicily, or something like that.
A human with a totally false sense of security will never be able to respond in time to an unexpected emergency, and all emergencies, by definition, are unexpected.
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: TailUK on April 03, 2019, 12:00:39 PM
Thunderbirds painted a dire picture of the future.   Automated Monorails that couldn't be turned off in a emergency.  Automated Nuclear power plants with no safety features.  Skyscrapers made of special incendiary building materials.  Machines to build roads powered by Atomic reactors.  What could possibly go wrong?
The idea of half a ton of road vehicle under autonomous or sporadic human control mixed with pedestrians is not a happy prospect.
Jurassic Park comes to mind "Just because they could, doesn't mean that they should!"
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: plastic on April 03, 2019, 12:45:05 PM
I get the feeling that all these companies have scammed the governments with the promise of being able to control the population and tax per mile of driving with all these fake AI projects.

I'm a techy-nerd and I suspect we're really 20 to 30 years away from self-drive cars because of the complexity of the environment and the ability of the software writers.

All cars now have to be wireless enabled so governments can track / charge your movements at all times.  It's being sold to people as a convenient add-on but the true purpose is being concealed - just like smart meters.

"I'm sorry Dave, I can't take you to the polling station because you voted the wrong way last time."
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: warspite on April 03, 2019, 01:53:41 PM
In the pilot for thunderbirds - how long was the runway, seemed similar to the journey between birmingham and london.


and why were they trying to land on a set of formula one cars with a huge spoilers on top  %) [size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: DaveM on April 03, 2019, 01:56:48 PM
All cars now have to be wireless enabled so governments can track / charge your movements at all times. 
Really? I hadn't heard of this before now. Which Act in UK law covers this, or is it yet another supposedly EU-inspired piece of legislation? Do tell...
DaveM
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: plastic on April 03, 2019, 02:02:58 PM
It's an EU bit of law - naturally, it's all for your safety.   :-))
https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights-center/editors-picks/Data-Protection-Privacy-and-Security/europe/connected-cars-legislation-draws-eu-lawmakers-late-objections-ahead-of-april-vote
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: chas on April 03, 2019, 02:24:30 PM
erm, maybe I'm not understanding that piece very well, but it seems to be about the standards of wi fi conectability fitted to vehicles. I can't see anything about compulsory connectivity to any official body, or about the fitting of wi fi being a compulsory installation. I didn't see anything about safety standards either.
   Help me out please, reading this guff isn't my normal sort of thing.

Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: plastic on April 03, 2019, 02:34:09 PM
I can't find the original article but here's some more...https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/motorinsurance/10837263/Drivers-without-insurance-black-box-could-be-forced-off-the-road-within-10-years.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/motorinsurance/10837263/Drivers-without-insurance-black-box-could-be-forced-off-the-road-within-10-years.html)


It's all about tracking and remote fining if you tread on the cracks of the pavement - to 'influence' your behaviours.

All for your safety......
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: DaveM on April 03, 2019, 02:44:17 PM
Chas
I'm really glad you posted that when you did, because I was about to post a reply which was almost identical to yours but I wasn't sure if I'd read the article correctly. I can't see anything about compulsory connectivity for vehicles anywhere in it, either.
The Telegraph piece (so it must be true.....) concerns insurance for drivers who may chose in ten years' time to opt out of having 'telematics' devices fitted into their cars, saying that their premiums may increase or even that they may be unable to obtain insurance. That's a long way from a compulsory installation now to comply with EU law.
"Fake news"?
DaveM
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: KitS on April 03, 2019, 04:05:20 PM

It's an EU bit of law - naturally, it's all for your safety.   :-))
https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights-center/editors-picks/Data-Protection-Privacy-and-Security/europe/connected-cars-legislation-draws-eu-lawmakers-late-objections-ahead-of-april-vote


I such legislation ever comes into force, which I doubt, I can see an increased market in classic and older cars.

I'm glad mine are both from the 2004-2007 period.  :-)
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Baldrick on April 03, 2019, 04:14:35 PM





Reading the BMW Forum webpage regarding the emergency call facility which is fitted to current beemers I noted the following conversation.  :-     



PinkFatBunny said:
  Anyone ever used the SOS button that is in the roof console? Curious to know what happens, do they know your location when you call them? can they call the police for you? etc

Answer:
Yes, it sends the 5th Panzer division into Poland
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: dougal99 on April 03, 2019, 05:20:36 PM

There was certainly a recent proposal from the EU that from 2021/2 all new cars be fitted with speed limit limiters. For these to work the car would have to be GPS enabled. Now whether the mysterious 'they' would want to know where you are is another question.


Driving a classic car with old number plates has advantages such as the number plate recognition system can't read them.
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: KitS on April 03, 2019, 06:13:58 PM

There was certainly a recent proposal from the EU that from 2021/2 all new cars be fitted with speed limit limiters. For these to work the car would have to be GPS enabled. Now whether the mysterious 'they' would want to know where you are is another question.


That was announced only last week, and if it's going to rely on GPS information it's never going to work. My TomTom GPS often has the wrong speed limit posted, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.

And you can bet your life that Police cars would NOT have such a system energised.  :police:

1984 again?
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 03, 2019, 08:30:37 PM
A lot of people assume that the intention is to make self driving cars 100% accident free which is indeed a tall order. However I have read that the real intention is to bring down the accident rate significantly below human related accidents which is a much easier target but will still justify the switch.


There are of course insurance liability issues......


Colin
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: KitS on April 03, 2019, 09:02:25 PM
How about the NON-human related accident rate?

Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 03, 2019, 09:15:06 PM
You mean ALIENS?  :o
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: KitS on April 03, 2019, 10:11:51 PM
No, those generated by hardware and software failures... oh, sorry, software 'features', that wouldn't have happened if there was a human in the control loop.

Both the manufacturers of these systems and the government agencies seem to be adopting a 'head in the sand' position vis a vis these issues, and pretending that they just won't happen.
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 03, 2019, 11:00:25 PM
My point was that there will still inevitably be some software/hardware failures but that the result of these will still be far fewer accidents than if humans remain in control so the overall outcome will be greater safety.


Colin
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: KitS on April 04, 2019, 12:02:46 AM
Only time will tell...........
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Klunk on April 04, 2019, 01:21:29 AM
I have said for a couple of years now, that with the advent of black boxes, it will not be long before all cars will need to be fitted with them. This is under the impression that ALL motorists drive like "xxxxx". All motorist speed, that is a known fact, but speed does not  cause accidents, people do. speed can BE A FACTOR, but in the end it is the Driver that loses control. When we had all these cameras put in place to stop accidents, the simple premise was speed kills. yes it does. BUT and here is the main point, most cameras were put on roads where there were speeding cars, with junctions near. Look at the accident rate at these black spots, and you will find that most of te accidents were not caused by speeding, but by idiots not paying attention to the road, and pulling out into a main road with other cars on. A quick look on DASHCAM UK on you tube bears this out. A speed camera CANNOT catch a motorist speeding if he is not or an accident where  the idiot pulls out. Insurance companies give a discount in some cases if certain APPROVED dash cams are fitted, double edge sword, if its not working for any reason and you have an accident, you may not be covered!
Back to the original point, with black boxes fitted to cars, these read the area you are in and check the speed restrictions in that area. With inbuilt car sat navs, you have the same thing (mine beeps when im over the speed limit by 5mph). It is not hard for manufacturers to linkl either of these 2 items to the EMU in a car and NOT LET YOU GO ABOVE THE SPEED LIMIT!
Also on  side note, I had my complusory water metter fitted 2 years ago. It will be cheaper they said! for 2 years I paid monthly on the old system. Always £10-£20 under under on the old system in my favour, when they send my comparison through........had my first compulsory bill through, and guess what......Im paying £25 a month MORE than under the old system, when I complained about it, they said  had used more water. When I got my old bills out, I was using less water than 2 years ago with 4 adults in the house!!!
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: derekwarner on April 04, 2019, 01:41:29 AM
So klunk says....... "All motorist speed, that is a known fact," >>:-(


Sorry....which University study did these words come from?


On Australian television last night, a middle aged female Academic was proffer-sizing her thoughts on a particular subject 


The bewildered host asked this woman the subject of her PhD studies that allow her to be addressed as Dr


I was a little bewildered when the woman confirmed the subject of her PhD Thesis attained in the UK was not science related,..no, but wait


The subject was on the words and thoughts offered in a musical song Danny Minogue


So back to our subject........your offering that "all motorists speed" could technically be assumed as true as they actually drive so a speed is attained, however did they forget the word "exceed"


mmmm makes me wonder if it was the same University that offers PhD's in the thoughts of songs %%


Derek

Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Klunk on April 04, 2019, 05:48:07 AM
that depends on Your assessment of speed. I naturally assumed that breaking the speed limit was speeding. in your case, you obviously think that you never have. now that depends on wether or not you drive. All motorists break the speed limit, even if it 1mph over that is still breaking it. do you stay within the speed limit? have you ever done an advanced driving course? police driving course, or a defensive driving course? I don't know you personally, so I assume not, as most drivers never take more than their driving test. So i stand by my assessment, that all drivers speed! even if only by 1mph that is still speeding, by definition.
and fyi, yes, advanced driving, and defensive driving courses. I have also done the police speed awareness course, as an assessor, so I have a little insight. and i emphasize the little!
ps i have been over taken on a road while doing 30 (speed limit on road) by a gentleman on his push bike, but he was not breaking the law. go figure that one.
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: derekwarner on April 04, 2019, 06:17:01 AM
Hullo klunk .......


Well in 1972, I purchased a new Renault 12 TL here in OZ.......a bonus with the vehicle was membership to enable me a free Renault designed Advanced Driver Training Course and followed by the Defensive Element of the Course


Naturally I enrolled & the Trainer/Examiner was a local Senior Constable of our NSW Police  :police:  who happened to be an R12 owner & working the second job illegally on the side :embarrassed:  ...I passed the Course ........


With respect to points of Law........the word assumption can only be used by the Defense, not the Prosecution, and in most cases will not be accepted as a valid point in Law


You appear to gloss over the University that both Prosecution and Defense parties attended  {-)


It has been many years, but I rest my case


Derek
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Klunk on April 04, 2019, 06:24:31 AM
ahh but by your own admission, what university did you go to. saying no one speeds, is not a defence either, and can actually be proven with everyone who has a black box. that is data collection that can be had under FOA. proving that you do not speed does not mean tgat you don't, it just means you have not been caught!
driving 35 years, 0 fault accidents, 3 points for speeding in said amount of years! 5 accidents non fault (hit whilst stationary at traffic lights 4 times, once while at a roundabout)
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: BrianB6 on April 04, 2019, 06:37:42 AM
Speed limits are only a traffic engineer's idea of what might be safe.   Often they do not seem to have even visited the area.
Invariably here, they are just blanket limits that bear no relevance to the actual conditions.  >>:-(
80 kph along our gravel road is criminal.  :police:
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: derekwarner on April 04, 2019, 06:49:16 AM
As klunk asks "ahh but by your own admission, what university did you go"….Well klunk...

Admitted and attended to the UOW......University of Wollongong ...... Various Studies and attainments
[some not for Public discussion re Department of Defence]
but only after an Engineering Trade Course and then an Engineering Undergraduate certification  ........

However the highest attainment in life is my Honorary Doctorate from the University of Life O0 
[according to some of my Grand Kids anyway  {-)  who say I don't drive all that fast]


Derek
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: KitS on April 04, 2019, 07:24:31 AM

.....with black boxes fitted to cars, these read the area you are in and check the speed restrictions in that area. With inbuilt car sat navs, you have the same thing (mine beeps when im over the speed limit by 5mph). It is not hard for manufacturers to linkl either of these 2 items to the EMU in a car and NOT LET YOU GO ABOVE THE SPEED LIMIT!


As I said a few posts before, that's all very well but what if the GPS data on the local speed limit is wrong? It often is, sometimes indicating speeds lower than it really is and sometime higher.

And before you ask, yes I DO update the database frequently...........
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 04, 2019, 12:53:50 PM
I think that the idea of using GPS and speed limit data to control a vehicle still needs a lot more work on it.
Like Klunk, my car which is less than two years old has SatNav with a speed limit database and also a front camera which reads speed limit signs. However…
Camera
·         My camera only recognises numerical speed limit signs and not the national limit diagonal bar on white background sign so when leaving a 40mph zone to 60/70mph zone then if the road speed limit is not in the internal database it starts beeping until it belatedly realises it has not seen a repeater sign for a while. It’s also a nuisance when moving from a 20mph zone to a 30mph one.
·         It can often give a false warning if it picks up a limit sign on a side road that is at an angle to the road you are on.
·         On motorways it picks up variable speed limits on gantries but reverts to 70mph half way to the next gantry (no repeaters!)
·         Overgrown foliage due to poor highway maintenance frequently means it misses signs.
Onboard Database
·         This is far from comprehensive and a very large percentage of rural roads with limits are not included.
·         It is only updated occasionally and that means reprogramming the SD card in my PC which is a pain with my manufacturer. Even long standing limits often don’t make it into the update despite being on major roads.
·         It has no hope of keeping up with hundreds of local authorities constantly adding new limits and altering old ones.
·         It sometimes warns of major roadwork limits which were in fact removed a year or more previously.
·         The associated speed camera database is also pretty hopeless and out of date. 70% of fixed cameras are picked up at most.
GPS
·         GPS signals are inherently very weak and can be blocked or distorted by bad weather or interference or even by nearby buildings.
·         Accuracy is not always good enough to distinguish between the limits on a trunk road with maybe a 60mph limit which is flanked by urban side roads which may only have a 30mph limit.
·         It often gets its unmentionables in a spiral if a fast road is constructed above a local one (elevated sections).
Given all the above there is no conceivable way in which my current system could be used to control the speed of the car or act as a basis for speeding enforcement action. All cars would need to be able to access a national database system which would need to be automatically continually updated. Not sure what can be done about the potential GPS accuracy though.
 
Colin 
Title: Re: How to trick a Tesla into a head-on collision
Post by: KitS on April 04, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Reading a more detailed review of the ISA system in this week's 'Autocar' magazine reveals that the ISA module can be switched off, or even overridden by a kick-down on the throttle.

Current production Ford Focus' already have it installed too. I'll remember that the next time one of them passes me in my local 20 mph zone............