Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: Phil22 on June 11, 2019, 10:35:16 AM

Title: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 11, 2019, 10:35:16 AM
Hi Everyone,

Great to now be active on the MBM Forum. Looking around at the wealth of shared experience is an inspiration. My GF and I hope to make our own contributions as we embark on our first build, a Billings Banckert 516.

Growing up by the sea, river tugs have always caught my eye the most. For me their shape is perfect, having a definite timeless quality.

This project is something we are working on together; I've some carpentry skills and can make tea, my better half is good with science and is not easily frustrated (this will come in handy as the build plans are let's say 'challenging'). Neither of us has any experience with electronics, this is something we'd like to learn more about to get running lights on board.


Photos of first steps:   https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/album/8gvX

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on June 11, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
Hmmm...

There seems to be something amiss with the link to your pictures.  If you want them to appear in your post, do this (I assume you have uploaded your pics to the MBM image site)  -

Select the image you want to post, then click on Embed Codes under the picture.  In the Full Image section, put your cursor over the BBCode line and a small box saying Copy should appear.  Click on this, then go to your message and paste that where you want the picture to appear.  I did all that and...
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2017/12/04/finished-hull-2.jpg)

Good luck with the build.  Keep asking questions, there will always be answers and the rest of us will learn something as well.

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 11, 2019, 12:41:49 PM
Thanks so much for your help Greg!!

Think I have it now:
  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1986.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1990.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1997.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1994.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1991.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1996.jpg)


Keeping all the ABS cut offs for glue/bond/epoxy testing.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on June 11, 2019, 12:46:04 PM
 :-))
Title: Help to bond ABS to Plywood - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 14, 2019, 03:35:28 PM
Hi All,


Does anyone have a recommended way of bonding ABS to plywood? A number of threads mention epoxy and yellow glue for example. We are currently living in Japan and having tested 6 types of both flexible and stiff drying Japanese glues, so far nothing has stuck. The ABS has been roughed up but the bonds have simply peeled off even after 48 hours of drying. Any brand names would be appreciated that we could order online.


Thanks,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on June 14, 2019, 04:57:38 PM
Stabilit express (stability express more commonly marketed as). Don't know if you can get it in shops in far east. I had to order from Germany via eBay.


Rich
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 15, 2019, 05:59:33 AM
Hey Rich, thank you so much for the reply.
We've done some initial searches here but would probably have to order from Germany too it looks like.
Appreciate your help  :-))

Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on June 15, 2019, 08:25:22 AM
No worries. Always fancied a banckert, but the wood puts me off these days, and they're getting expensive here when I see them. Do you know tamiya make a liquid solvent for abs to abs, you'll get that easy peasy.




Rich
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 15, 2019, 02:23:42 PM
Thanks again Rich, will look out for that here (Tokyo). I was really surprised as so far I've not found any model shops which carry boats and parts. There are plenty of car, planes, helis and drones to be found. Wonder if there are any other Mayhemers here. We ordered the Banckert from a stockist a fair way from the capital (too far to visit).


Today was the first day working with the laser cut wood in the kit. Although it starts off pretty scorched on the underside, with a bit of light sanding it comes up nice. We've already decided that the plans are merely a loose guide. With a square and some creative license. pleasing results can be had. Here are some more pics of today's efforts.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/8.jpg)
Heated a spike on the stove and made a pilot hole before using a 2mm bit and finishing the rest by hand.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/9.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/10.jpg)

Some of the bigger pieces are oversized so needed some trimming and shaping.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/11.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/15.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/12.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/14.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/13.jpg)
On to sanding a bit more then priming when dry.


Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Ralph on June 15, 2019, 08:24:08 PM
Built a Banckert years ago. It's a nice wee kit. I added a bow trusted to mine cos I'd never tried one before but it handled well without using the thruster. I think I replaced some of the plywood with styrene sheet to get a better finish without all the filling and sanding.


I'd be surprised if a 2 part epoxy doesn't bond ply to roughened ABS but acrylic glues stick just about anything to anything else - Stabilit Express as has been suggested or the one I use at the moment is called Super Crylic.


Good luck with your build.  Ralph
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 16, 2019, 12:57:53 PM
Thanks Ralph for the reply and info about Super Crylic. In your experience, how is it to sand and shape post curing?

Today we removed a little more out of the deck and sured up the frame that sits below with corner pieces and a cross-brace. This part of the deck has around a 2mm curve front to aft so it might be a bit of challenge to get the balsa insert to bend that much. We'll see.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/16.jpg)

Put a chamfer on the deck underside

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/18.jpg)

Curved frame for deck underside
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/17.jpg)

Widened the laser cut holes to receive the portholes
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/16a.jpg)


Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: tica on June 16, 2019, 01:14:21 PM
Wow Billings Banckert with the ABS hull was my first modelboat way back in time and before laser cuts. Still have it but it needs some TLC.
If you are on FB try to look up Mr Nobuhisa Watanabe he is located in Tokyo and do "play" with modelboats he may be able to point you in the right direction for modelboat parts in Tokyo.

RegardsCarsten
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Ralph on June 16, 2019, 08:14:54 PM
Acrylic glues set very hard so they take a bit of work to sand smooth.  Riffler files are good to take off the worst in awkward places then finish off with wet & dry.


Regards Ralph
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: merseyferry on June 16, 2019, 08:55:26 PM
hello phil  i noticed you have the Billings Banckert 516 kit  (nice kit btw) any way have you got the fittings kit  511  that goes with 516 as i dont see any in your pics best regards pat
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 17, 2019, 01:01:04 AM
Thanks Tica - I'm not an FB user but I could find his page. Appreciate the idea!!


Hey Pat, yes I have the 511 fittings kit (I believe it is all the brass fittings and lifebelts etc.) Some very nice detailed bits included. Looking forward to adding those on.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 22, 2019, 09:02:33 AM
We had a little time today to work on the Banckert. Having received some kind advice from a local builder "Sugi-san" in Japan, we are now in the process of getting our hands on some epoxy. The Japanese name for it is: セメダイン ハイスーパー30 (Cemedine High Super 30).

Reading up on the build, I'd noted people mentioning that the wood isn't square in the kit. So far we've found it to be fine although offering it to the curved hull becomes the brain teezer. Test fitting part of the forward structure showed that the starboard side gets pushed out of square at the front by the desk's molding. The side will go back to square but we saw the whole piece edge away (about 4mm) from the intended position. We've put a 2mm bead under the wheelhouse floor to make sure we retain square during assembly. The deck may need a bit of light persuasion.

Some light sanding to remove the mild laser burn

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/19.jpg)

Took off the bevel from the wheelhouse deck

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/20.jpg)


Test fit
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/21.jpg)

Added a 2mm bead under the wheelhouse floor to help with assembly
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/22.jpg)

Have a good weekend all!
Title: Recommended Gear - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 24, 2019, 12:23:06 PM
Hi All,

For our Banckert project we'd like to ask for recommendations regarding running gear.
We haven't any experience to go off (yet), and so would ask what fellow MBMayhemers feel would be a solid basic setup (easily maintained). 

We have a few things in our minds at this point:

1. to achieve a scale-like speed (nothing overly fast for a tug)
2. a simple motor without gearing (very interested in brushless)
3. a brass prop
4. not planning to tow anything (we know "but it's a tug!")
25. way on down the line (ability allowing) we may 'attempt' adding in a self-contained bilge pump

So far we have the stuffing tube which came with the kit and that is all. So we really are starting from the beginning.
We appreciate that a 'solid basic setup' will mean different things to different people, we hope to get a better idea based on wisdom of this brilliant forum.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on June 24, 2019, 12:48:58 PM
Nice build thanks for sharing
This guy might answer some questions for you
https://youtu.be/Li6SB1B1vFM
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on June 24, 2019, 03:44:35 PM
hello phil  i noticed you have the Billings Banckert 516 kit  (nice kit btw) any way have you got the fittings kit  511  that goes with 516 as i dont see any in your pics best regards pat
Hi Pat
I believe that Billings kits come with fittings these days and not as separate purchases
This kit from CMB is a bargain at £180


Dearer here but includes a list of what is included.
https://www.trinityaries.com/shop/model-boats/model-boats-billing-boats/experienced/billing-boats-b516-banckert-tug-model-boat-kit-fittings/


Phil ! The above Link shows recommended accessories which may help with your question  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 26, 2019, 02:34:39 AM
Thank you so much for the links Andy  ;D  gave us a good pointer in terms of what is what.

Very interested to know what other Banckert or similar sized vessel owners are running too.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 11:13:42 AM
A good epoxy or modified acrylic glue will work fine for wood to ABS. Modified acrylics come under many brand names, and consistencies, Stabilit express is one, as is Deluxe materials Super Crylic, Devcon Plastic Welder I and II, Uhu Plus Acrylit, Loctite do a range, as do Starloc adhesives (very competitive prices).

For epoxy my favourite is JB weld marine, as it sands well, and being pigmented is easy to see where you have any where you don't want it.

Most of the glues will sand back, although some epoxies and modified acrylics can be a little chewy, the trick is to mask off areas you don't want overspill on, then apply the glue, that minimises any clean-up required.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 11:22:51 AM
With regards to the motor, can you tell me the prop size? I'm guessing it'll be about 40-50mm for a tug that size and scale?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 26, 2019, 02:04:27 PM
Thank you @Subculture for your information and advice. Very interested in the epoxy containing pigment. We were recommended this prop by a UK seller: Raboesch 40mm 3 Blade R/H C-Type.
The hull is 65cm long, 16cm wide (1:50)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 04:56:13 PM
Raboesch tend to be roughly square props e.g. the pitch is roughly equal to the diameter. That tends to work very well with electric motors and is efficient. So I would aim for a shaft speed of between 4-5000rpm, which should give plenty of go, with a bit in reserve if needed.

A 28mm to 35mm brushless outrunner will run a prop that size direct drive all day long with no issues, depending on system voltage you'll want an outrunner that works at either (6v) 700kv or (12v) 350kv.

I'd go for a 6 volts system or 2s lipo/Life and a 700 kv motor e.g. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-aerodrive-dst-700-brushless-outrunner-motor-700kv.html

Esc, something like this is a bit overkill, but not expensive and capable.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingr-tm-brushless-car-esc-30a-w-reverse.html
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Martin [Admin] on June 26, 2019, 05:28:52 PM
Thank you @Subculture for your information and advice. Very interested in the epoxy containing pigment. We were recommended this prop by a UK seller: Raboesch 40mm 3 Blade R/H C-Type.
The hull is 65cm long, 16cm wide (1:50)

ALWAYS test glues, paints, fillers on scrap before committing to the final job!   O0
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
Shouldn't experience any issues with those materials. You need to be careful with modified acrylic on some clear plastics like polycarbonate and PMMA as it can craze them. Epoxy is pretty much inert on anything, but the bond is completely mechanical, so the plastic surfaces need to be well keyed before bonding.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Martin [Admin] on June 26, 2019, 05:53:31 PM
 
Agreed but some ABS / 'hard plastic' single part glues have high solvent content and if used too liberally or the ABS is very thin..... !   {:-{
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 06:38:03 PM
All the glues I listed are twin component adhesives, Martin. You can't fuse wood to ABS, it has to be bonded.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 28, 2019, 01:01:36 AM
@Subculture a million thanks for the information and ideas, this is perfect. With your explanation and links along with Andy and Martin's info we have a great base to do some spending (a-hem, I mean research)!! Yeah, will look into these products so we can try to understand them more and how they go together. We were really happy to receive the voltage information, this is something we were wondering about a lot.

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 06, 2019, 11:45:24 AM
Spent a few hours each evening this week continuing to work on the wooden bits. Also we got our hands on some Japanese epoxy for the ABS to plywood.


  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/23.jpg)

Used a square sanding block as a guide while coming along with the sides of this section. This was helpful in giving 3 points of contact while glueing
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/24.jpg)

Only the edge of the block was needed to retain square
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/25.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/26.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/27.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/28.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/29.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/30.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/31.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/32.jpg)

So far the laser-cut pieces have been great, only requiring some light sanding here and there. The rear deck was the first time something didn't quite go together flush. Rather than using some filler, we opted to cut, realign then slot in a fillet.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/33.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/34.jpg)

transferred off the model with some tape.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/35.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/36.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/37.jpg)

Towing point assembly
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/38.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/39.jpg)


511 Fittings Kit bundled with the Banckert
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/40.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 20, 2019, 03:09:38 AM

Began work on the rear deck railings (thanks to tips on the forum about working off a separate board). The stanchions in our case are not moveable post bend due to the tolerances which are impressive =P. The final plunge as to where to make the bends was a good percentage of guesswork. Also rather than have two stanchions at the very back corners (as in the plans), we'd seen other builders bringing them forward a few mil which allows the bend to flow into them better.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/41.jpg)


One point that has required a bit of thought is the curved front of the main structure. After spending a good week trying to soften up the piece (clamping it to the model, clamping it to a paint tin, steaming it, bending it as much as we dared, offering it cash) the edges where it marries up to the sides of the cabin didn't look at all like they would hold.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/42a.jpg)


The sweep of the deck was too much strain on the piece. Tip our hats to those builders who managed this as designed.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/43a.jpg)


Tried cutting out the same shape from a thin plastic binder cover but we weren't happy with that. The flexibility was there but the meeting of the end joints was pants...


Solution: Shallow out the deck curve. Layered and shaped a chunk of MDF to bond the piece to properly.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/44.jpg)


The MDF needs a little more work to make everything flush. The section of the removed forward deck shows the original curve versus our modified one. XD
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: derekwarner on July 20, 2019, 03:34:50 AM
Excellent build  thread & images Phil22 :-)) 


Just a point of question, is that replacement shaped MDF former heavy? and will you paint the exposed surfaces?.......


Some MDF material + water moisture causes severe  <*< swelling of the MDF



Derek
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 20, 2019, 08:40:01 AM
Thanks very much Derek. The MDF piece doesn't have much weight to it at all. It's comparable to a piece of balsa the same size. To keep the weight down though, it'll get hollowed out with the dremel a touch. The MDF has received coats of wood glue during shaping and when ready it'll get a few coats of primer before painting. This should seal it up enough  ;)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Our tug is starting to look more like the box =) The wooden parts have been really enjoyable to put together. While the instructions could be a whole lot better, it is definitely rewarding to think carefully about each step and work out what needs doing.
 
This probably won’t be of use to most but on the offhand here are the local (Tokyo) materials we are using.
 
Tin = Undercoat
Bottle = Quick drying wood glue (Excellent stuff)
Box = 2 Part epoxy as recommended by Sugi-san (check out his Banckert on Youtube). Goes off in around 30 minutes but needs 24hrs to cure. Dries clear.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/45.jpg)
 
The epoxy did a great job of maintaining the bend in the stiff plywood. Fashioned a small ply form and left it clamped for 48 hrs.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/46.jpg)


Worked on the basic shell of the rear cabin. As early on we removed the bevel from the bridge floor, the fit is a little out, meaning the rear cabin sits a touch high. This will be an easy fix in simply putting the bridge on a new 3mm base.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/47.jpg)
 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/48.jpg)
 
 
All the wooden fittings that make up the funnel and main mast sections shaped, sanded and ready to assemble.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/49.jpg)
 
 
There is a vent at the base of the funnel which we couldn’t identify at all in the kit. It looks like a part is stuck on over the plywood. Looking online either people have gone with plain wood or got creative. We chose creative and built in louvered fins using the fitment beading.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/50.jpg)
 
 (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/53.jpg)
 
 
Also, there are areas on 3 sides of the funnel in the plans that receive parts (vents). Same issue, couldn’t identify so repeated as above, this time with toothpicks.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/51.jpg)
 
 
Spruce Springstein
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/52.jpg)
 
 
Overall Progress
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/54.jpg)
 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/55.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Mark T on July 28, 2019, 03:19:15 PM
Your build is looking really nice and I like your solution with the louvered fins  :-))   I suggested to my wife that we build something together - She laughed and mentioned something about causing a divorce  {-)   Keep the updates coming as its a great build.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 30, 2019, 05:33:00 AM
Thanks very much Mark.

Really enjoying to read your Fairmount Alpine build diary atm. Stunning finished result!!
Title: Billings Banckert 516 - LED help request
Post by: Phil22 on August 04, 2019, 01:12:08 PM
Being our first build, we made the decision early on not to put in freeing ports going on the assumption that if it is that choppy, we'd not sail that day. In the standard Banckert kit, the rear deck has no coaming. So we've opted to build up the rear deck cover a few mil and add in some coaming for a bit of a safety margin. The rear deck definitely does look better flush but we'll go with caution this time. Perhaps we'll achieve this (and freeing ports) with a future build after acquiring more experience.   

Reworked rear deck cover. This is the first piece to receive some wood filler - still needs sanding flat.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/55b.jpg)

Lower funnel section with some mods

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/56.jpg)


The contact point for the main mast is less than 8mm square. Envisioning the day when it gets knocked and breaks prompted the use of a dowl "bamboo toothpic" (very strong). These are also excellent for accurately applying glue.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/57.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/58.jpg)

More detailing work (Elf hands required).

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/59.jpg)

Prepped 2 initial holes in the funnel for LED wiring

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/60.jpg)

OK hands-up, we are approaching a part that we literally have no experience with. Basic electronics =P. We would really appreciate some help in creating something like either setup below. Thinking to base off a 9V battery, would this work?

2 navigation LEDs, 1 internal bridge LED, 2 LEDs on the V bracket (funnel section) *all LEDs 3mm

Idea A

A chain of 5 white LEDs connected to an on/off switch, a fuse and a battery. Coat 2 LEDs with marker pens (1 green, 1 red) for the navigation lights.

Idea B

1 red LED, 1 green LED and 3 white LEDs connected to an on/off switch, a fuse and a battery. This would be a parallel circuit (we think...). Google mentions different colours of LED require different voltages so with understand 3 different resistor types may be needed.

We've had a go (don't laugh) at producing some circuit diagrams to try and explain

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/61.jpg)(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/63.jpg)

Thank you in advance for any help / advice offered.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on August 04, 2019, 02:34:14 PM
Might want to feed the three white led's in parallel too, with dropping resistors for each- makes it easier to fault find if one goes duff.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 06, 2019, 12:59:43 AM
Thanks a lot Subculture! That was another of the questions we had.
Regarding the gauge of wire. What would be the thinnest (recommended) option for this simple setup?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on August 06, 2019, 08:54:06 PM
Small  low power LED's only draw 10-20ma at most, so really the finest wire is suitable e.g. 0.1mm2  would be perfectly okay, and can be hidden by slotting masts etc.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 09, 2019, 02:02:20 PM
Thanks again @Subculture appreciate your help. Planning to give things a go this weekend. Found a great electronics shop in Tokyo's Electric Town (Akihabara).
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 17, 2019, 04:14:49 AM
Progress!!

Huge thank you to Malcolmfrary and Subculture, we now have working lights [thread: https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63538.msg672251#msg672251 (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63538.msg672251#msg672251)]. This is the first attempt so next is measuring up and refitting for the build.

 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/17/67.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 01, 2019, 02:44:08 PM
Found a fantastic electronics supplier in Tokyo's Electric Town (Akihabara) https://www.sengoku.co.jp/shop_01.html (https://www.sengoku.co.jp/shop_01.html)
4 floors of fascination! 1000's of mini drawers and shelves full of components. Customers can buy items individually or in bulk.

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/68.jpg)

 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/69.jpg)



Work on the bridge has progressed a little this week. It looks like the plans have the bridge's ceiling extending out on three sides. We've seen other builders getting the sides flush which we think looks better, so went for this approach.

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/70.jpg)


As we took the bevel off the bridge's deck early in the build, to get to the kit fitting correctly again we added a new base trim.

 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/71.jpg)

The bridge roof section has a high 'faff level'.

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/72.jpg)

Decided to build it off the model having made an outline on a plastic sheet. Didn't fancy trying to glaze this part from the inside either.
Used a couple of other parts to raise the piece up around 6mm. Taping it all down then gave us the ability to slide in the side sections and get them glued. These thin window sections won't take much of a chamfer as there isn't much material around the sills.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/73.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/74.jpg)


Overall build

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/76.jpg)

Some initial detail work (couldn't wait any longer  {-) )

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/77b.png)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 08, 2019, 12:09:45 PM

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/78.jpg)


The upper window section has been the most challenging part of the build so far. The plans are far too general.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/80.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/79.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/81.jpg)


Not sure which species of wood is used for the heavily curved parts but the fact that grain runs vertically (at least in our kit), so far 2 of 5 parts (1mm thick) have snapped while coaxing them into the shape required. Last pic: part A snapped and was unsalvageable, part B snapped and was rescued, mostly thanks to the wood filler.

This has been the only real disappointment with the kit. The other plywood parts have largely been great to work with.
 

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/82.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/83.jpg)


A little more detailing required on the filler areas.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on September 08, 2019, 02:18:16 PM
Coming along nicely.  And I guess we have all found parts in kits which were only suitable for the bin. If we are lucky they are straightforward to reproduce from our own materials. You seem to be coping well with the occasional rogue, and the whole boat is looking good. Well done.   :-)) :-))

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 09, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
Thanks a lot Greg for your comment. Overall we are thoroughly enjoying the build, these little hurdles all add to the interest at the end of the day.

 {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on September 09, 2019, 09:58:55 PM
Dry wood will only bend so far.  Usual practice in modelling circles is to soak, or steam and set in place.  I don't think the destructions are necessarily at fault for not saying that because it's such a common thig to do when working with wooden parts in models.  But in your case I would probably have done the same thing -and just used polystyrene instead!  I guess that sounds a bit hard though!  It looks a brilliant biuld though.  A Bankert has been taunting me in my local shop for ages, not for best part of £300 though!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 10, 2019, 01:03:36 AM
Hi RST,

Yeah much still to learn. Thanks for the tips.
£300 for the kit only or for a full build price? FYI Kitstop (Address: 20 Oxton Rd, Birkenhead CH41 2QJ, UK) quoted me £180 for the kit.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 22, 2019, 01:58:37 PM

Progress since the last comment has mostly involved filling and sanding. From last year I started collecting useful Banckert build images which have been invaluable so far. The range of detailing ideas from various modelers is great to see.

Strengtheners epoxied to the ABS deck

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/84.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/85.jpg)


Made a start on the the wiring having decided where the 5 LEDs will go. 2 on the mast, 1 on the bridge, 2 port/starboard lights.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/86.jpg)


The back of the deck is a flat panel in the kit. We wanted to add more detail so vented it out and propped up with bits of brass wire.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/87.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/88.jpg)


Getting there slowly but having fun with the build!

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/89.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 09, 2019, 09:47:32 AM

Work has continued on the handrails and this time we’ve had some good results with the slow drying epoxy over solder.

The front of the bridge in official pics has a rounded section front-center not shown in the instructions.

First off roughly cut the rails to size, measured out the distance between stanchions on a board (we tried 32mm to allow for the radius bend later).

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/91b.jpg)
 
Trimmed and filed off the excess material then moved the handrails back and forth the draw the epoxy into the stanchions. 

Propped the piece up with a square while drying. Used a crank handle to bend the piece around then prepped light pilot holes in the plywood.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/92.jpg)


Moving onto the side rails followed the same process this time over two days to give the epoxy time to go off before working on the opposite ends.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/90.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/93a.png)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/94b.png)


So far they’ve stood up well to the forces exerted while bending into shape. This approach has been much easier / neater than first making holes in the plywood THEN getting each section to fit.

Found that chopping a little off the larger stanchions stops them from bending when being tickled with the hammer. (Same length as the shorter ones works best)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/95.jpg)



Now for the challenging bit

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/96.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 09, 2019, 01:30:33 PM

Overall results

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/97.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/98.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 13, 2019, 11:11:12 AM
The epoxy approach when putting together the railing sections has proved much easier for us than using solder.

For our build we wanted something a little unique, we extended the rear cabin a touch to create a (theoretical) platform to access to the funnel mounted ladder.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/100.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/101.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/104.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/103.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/102.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 13, 2019, 11:27:04 AM

A couple more of the brass details

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/97.jpg)


Radar and guard

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/98.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 24, 2019, 07:22:41 AM
Hey MBM,

For those interested. A colour version of the Banckert 516 build instructions can be downloaded here:

https://www.billingboatsusa.com/experienced/42-516-banckert.html (https://www.billingboatsusa.com/experienced/42-516-banckert.html)

Size: 874 kb
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 27, 2019, 10:25:38 AM
Steady work on the handrails has continued over this past week. They’re almost done bar buttoning up a few small areas.  Daunting at first, but with thought and some trial and error we are happy with the results for a first effort.  We’ve picked up a few new skills and tips along the way ; )


Port and starboard handrails from the deck to the bridge


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/112.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/113.jpg)


A cutting mat provides a great visual aid when putting bends in the required spots


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/114.jpg)


The ladder is supported by a small piece of ply under the top step - helpful during mockup as for each rail there is only one point of contact at the stanchion


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/115.jpg)


As not to have open joints on the stanchions these extra details were fitted


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/116.jpg)


The full set of brass parts


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/118.jpg)


The instructions have the rails of this section (left side) going into the rear cabin wall. For ease of fitting and for something different we made them this way (right side - pre-trimmed 'P' shaped part)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/119.jpg)


--

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/120.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/121.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/122.jpg)


The intention so far was to go with a brushless motor (like this: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-aerodrive-dst-700-brushless-outrunner-motor-700kv.html?___store=en_us (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-aerodrive-dst-700-brushless-outrunner-motor-700kv.html?___store=en_us)) but I’ve since read that brushless struggle a bit a low revs. Would a brushed motor be more suited for this build?


Thanks for reading and any information shared.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 27, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
I’ve since read that brushless struggle a bit a low revs. Not wishing to build a speed-tug, would a brushed motor be more suited for this build?

They're referring to cogging at very low rpm, which applies to sensorless set-ups. This is pretty much eliminated on modern brushless esc's.

On a boat this makes little to no difference, as the prop is essentially a fluid clutch e.g. it slips. Cogging can cause issues on model cars that like to run slow e.g. rock crawlers, where lots of torque is required and lots of sensitivity at low throttle settings.

In short I wouldn't let it concern you.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 27, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
Hey Subculture

Thank you as always for the helpful clarification and insight. We'll be getting to grips with the electronic components in the near future as the structure nears completion.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Mark T on October 27, 2019, 02:05:03 PM
There's some really nice work that the two of you have carried out there.  Its looking very nice indeed  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 27, 2019, 02:37:58 PM
Whilst on the subject of epoxy, I find a coat of epoxy resin on wooden parts, mixed with a little bit of talcum powder, seals and strengthens everything beautifully before priming. Once the epoxy is lightly cut back (the talcum powder is optional but helps the sanding), it seals and smooths the grain giving a smooth surface more like the plastic parts
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on October 27, 2019, 08:44:01 PM
Instead of talcum powder I use Microballoons, costs more but I find it sands better and gives a really good finish. (won't smell as good when sanding though)
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 27, 2019, 09:32:12 PM
I once used some microballoons as a substitute for fumed silica when thickening some epoxy to use as a gelcoat- that was an experiment, but a big mistake. When I was post finishing the mould I ended up with lots of tiny pock marks, which I believe were the microballoons so I only tend to use them for areas which won't be sanded back.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on October 28, 2019, 10:20:36 AM
Sounds like you were using a lot more microballoons than I would use to seal and fill the surface of wood. Some of the earlier microballoons (especially the brown phenolic type) were larger than those available today (the white type seem to be very small) so could have lead to a pock marked surface. When I have used them to produce a sanding sealer only a small quantity was needed as they are there to fill the grain of the wood not to give a thick layer. When sanded I have not seen any pock marks on the surface, with the surface  ending up as smooth as styrene sheet.
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on October 28, 2019, 07:09:50 PM
I once used some microballoons as a substitute for fumed silica when thickening some epoxy to use as a gelcoat- that was an experiment, but a big mistake. When I was post finishing the mould I ended up with lots of tiny pock marks, which I believe were the microballoons so I only tend to use them for areas which won't be sanded back.
If you could see the pock marks with the naked eye then it was probably air bubbles in the mixture.  Microballoons are, as the name implies, very small indeed and you cannot distinguish them in the epoxy matrix.  However they do stiffen the mixture, which makes it a lot harder to get air bubbles out, so you need to be quite gentle mixing them in.  But they do make sanding so much easier, and with care and good luck you can get a baby's bum finish as witnessed by Jim.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 29, 2019, 12:09:27 AM
Any excess epoxy on the handrails easily came off with a scrape from a craft knife, while leaving the joint intact. There are 5 or 6 more details to go on for the rigging then its on to hull strengthening and prep for the electronics.

Thanks to all for your input on working with wood surfaces. Good info to know

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 29, 2019, 07:11:29 AM
Wasn’t air. The little marks showed once I compounded the tools. Only the part of the tool which had the micro balloons showed the marks. On something that is going to be painted it’s no big deal, but this was a tool to mould from. It was still usable, but I made a mental note not to use microballoons for that purpose.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 16, 2019, 03:44:21 PM
Well, we thought the brass bits were all wrapped up. Not quite, but it’s okay as they’ve turned out to be real fun to make.

The last parts (watch this space….) are for the mast rigging. Puzzling on how best to attach the lines, a few ideas were tried out including creating various hooks and looping the wire back on itself. None of which looked particularly neat. Finally we settled on chopping up unused stanchions and soldering the trimmed hole sections to the ends.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/123.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/124.jpg)


To stop the nano-bits from moving about while soldering they where each threaded onto some spare wire then taped down like so.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/125.jpg)


They should hold well.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/126.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/127.jpg)


Lastly got an initial undercoat on and some surface leveling.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/128.jpg)