Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: Phil22 on June 11, 2019, 10:35:16 am

Title: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 11, 2019, 10:35:16 am
Hi Everyone,

Great to now be active on the MBM Forum. Looking around at the wealth of shared experience is an inspiration. My GF and I hope to make our own contributions as we embark on our first build, a Billings Banckert 516.

Growing up by the sea, river tugs have always caught my eye the most. For me their shape is perfect, having a definite timeless quality.

This project is something we are working on together; I've some carpentry skills and can make tea, my better half is good with science and is not easily frustrated (this will come in handy as the build plans are let's say 'challenging'). Neither of us has any experience with electronics, this is something we'd like to learn more about to get running lights on board.


Photos of first steps:   https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/album/8gvX

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on June 11, 2019, 12:27:53 pm
Hmmm...

There seems to be something amiss with the link to your pictures.  If you want them to appear in your post, do this (I assume you have uploaded your pics to the MBM image site)  -

Select the image you want to post, then click on Embed Codes under the picture.  In the Full Image section, put your cursor over the BBCode line and a small box saying Copy should appear.  Click on this, then go to your message and paste that where you want the picture to appear.  I did all that and...
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2017/12/04/finished-hull-2.jpg)

Good luck with the build.  Keep asking questions, there will always be answers and the rest of us will learn something as well.

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 11, 2019, 12:41:49 pm
Thanks so much for your help Greg!!

Think I have it now:
  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1986.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1990.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1997.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1994.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1991.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/11/DSCN1996.jpg)


Keeping all the ABS cut offs for glue/bond/epoxy testing.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on June 11, 2019, 12:46:04 pm
 :-))
Title: Help to bond ABS to Plywood - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 14, 2019, 03:35:28 pm
Hi All,


Does anyone have a recommended way of bonding ABS to plywood? A number of threads mention epoxy and yellow glue for example. We are currently living in Japan and having tested 6 types of both flexible and stiff drying Japanese glues, so far nothing has stuck. The ABS has been roughed up but the bonds have simply peeled off even after 48 hours of drying. Any brand names would be appreciated that we could order online.


Thanks,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on June 14, 2019, 04:57:38 pm
Stabilit express (stability express more commonly marketed as). Don't know if you can get it in shops in far east. I had to order from Germany via eBay.


Rich
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 15, 2019, 05:59:33 am
Hey Rich, thank you so much for the reply.
We've done some initial searches here but would probably have to order from Germany too it looks like.
Appreciate your help  :-))

Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on June 15, 2019, 08:25:22 am
No worries. Always fancied a banckert, but the wood puts me off these days, and they're getting expensive here when I see them. Do you know tamiya make a liquid solvent for abs to abs, you'll get that easy peasy.




Rich
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 15, 2019, 02:23:42 pm
Thanks again Rich, will look out for that here (Tokyo). I was really surprised as so far I've not found any model shops which carry boats and parts. There are plenty of car, planes, helis and drones to be found. Wonder if there are any other Mayhemers here. We ordered the Banckert from a stockist a fair way from the capital (too far to visit).


Today was the first day working with the laser cut wood in the kit. Although it starts off pretty scorched on the underside, with a bit of light sanding it comes up nice. We've already decided that the plans are merely a loose guide. With a square and some creative license. pleasing results can be had. Here are some more pics of today's efforts.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/8.jpg)
Heated a spike on the stove and made a pilot hole before using a 2mm bit and finishing the rest by hand.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/9.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/10.jpg)

Some of the bigger pieces are oversized so needed some trimming and shaping.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/11.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/15.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/12.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/14.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/15/13.jpg)
On to sanding a bit more then priming when dry.


Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Ralph on June 15, 2019, 08:24:08 pm
Built a Banckert years ago. It's a nice wee kit. I added a bow trusted to mine cos I'd never tried one before but it handled well without using the thruster. I think I replaced some of the plywood with styrene sheet to get a better finish without all the filling and sanding.


I'd be surprised if a 2 part epoxy doesn't bond ply to roughened ABS but acrylic glues stick just about anything to anything else - Stabilit Express as has been suggested or the one I use at the moment is called Super Crylic.


Good luck with your build.  Ralph
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 16, 2019, 12:57:53 pm
Thanks Ralph for the reply and info about Super Crylic. In your experience, how is it to sand and shape post curing?

Today we removed a little more out of the deck and sured up the frame that sits below with corner pieces and a cross-brace. This part of the deck has around a 2mm curve front to aft so it might be a bit of challenge to get the balsa insert to bend that much. We'll see.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/16.jpg)

Put a chamfer on the deck underside

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/18.jpg)

Curved frame for deck underside
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/17.jpg)

Widened the laser cut holes to receive the portholes
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/16/16a.jpg)


Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: tica on June 16, 2019, 01:14:21 pm
Wow Billings Banckert with the ABS hull was my first modelboat way back in time and before laser cuts. Still have it but it needs some TLC.
If you are on FB try to look up Mr Nobuhisa Watanabe he is located in Tokyo and do "play" with modelboats he may be able to point you in the right direction for modelboat parts in Tokyo.

RegardsCarsten
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Ralph on June 16, 2019, 08:14:54 pm
Acrylic glues set very hard so they take a bit of work to sand smooth.  Riffler files are good to take off the worst in awkward places then finish off with wet & dry.


Regards Ralph
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: merseyferry on June 16, 2019, 08:55:26 pm
hello phil  i noticed you have the Billings Banckert 516 kit  (nice kit btw) any way have you got the fittings kit  511  that goes with 516 as i dont see any in your pics best regards pat
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 17, 2019, 01:01:04 am
Thanks Tica - I'm not an FB user but I could find his page. Appreciate the idea!!


Hey Pat, yes I have the 511 fittings kit (I believe it is all the brass fittings and lifebelts etc.) Some very nice detailed bits included. Looking forward to adding those on.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 22, 2019, 09:02:33 am
We had a little time today to work on the Banckert. Having received some kind advice from a local builder "Sugi-san" in Japan, we are now in the process of getting our hands on some epoxy. The Japanese name for it is: セメダイン ハイスーパー30 (Cemedine High Super 30).

Reading up on the build, I'd noted people mentioning that the wood isn't square in the kit. So far we've found it to be fine although offering it to the curved hull becomes the brain teezer. Test fitting part of the forward structure showed that the starboard side gets pushed out of square at the front by the desk's molding. The side will go back to square but we saw the whole piece edge away (about 4mm) from the intended position. We've put a 2mm bead under the wheelhouse floor to make sure we retain square during assembly. The deck may need a bit of light persuasion.

Some light sanding to remove the mild laser burn

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/19.jpg)

Took off the bevel from the wheelhouse deck

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/20.jpg)


Test fit
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/21.jpg)

Added a 2mm bead under the wheelhouse floor to help with assembly
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/06/22/22.jpg)

Have a good weekend all!
Title: Recommended Gear - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 24, 2019, 12:23:06 pm
Hi All,

For our Banckert project we'd like to ask for recommendations regarding running gear.
We haven't any experience to go off (yet), and so would ask what fellow MBMayhemers feel would be a solid basic setup (easily maintained). 

We have a few things in our minds at this point:

1. to achieve a scale-like speed (nothing overly fast for a tug)
2. a simple motor without gearing (very interested in brushless)
3. a brass prop
4. not planning to tow anything (we know "but it's a tug!")
25. way on down the line (ability allowing) we may 'attempt' adding in a self-contained bilge pump

So far we have the stuffing tube which came with the kit and that is all. So we really are starting from the beginning.
We appreciate that a 'solid basic setup' will mean different things to different people, we hope to get a better idea based on wisdom of this brilliant forum.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on June 24, 2019, 12:48:58 pm
Nice build thanks for sharing
This guy might answer some questions for you
https://youtu.be/Li6SB1B1vFM
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on June 24, 2019, 03:44:35 pm
hello phil  i noticed you have the Billings Banckert 516 kit  (nice kit btw) any way have you got the fittings kit  511  that goes with 516 as i dont see any in your pics best regards pat
Hi Pat
I believe that Billings kits come with fittings these days and not as separate purchases
This kit from CMB is a bargain at £180


Dearer here but includes a list of what is included.
https://www.trinityaries.com/shop/model-boats/model-boats-billing-boats/experienced/billing-boats-b516-banckert-tug-model-boat-kit-fittings/


Phil ! The above Link shows recommended accessories which may help with your question  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 26, 2019, 02:34:39 am
Thank you so much for the links Andy  ;D  gave us a good pointer in terms of what is what.

Very interested to know what other Banckert or similar sized vessel owners are running too.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 11:13:42 am
A good epoxy or modified acrylic glue will work fine for wood to ABS. Modified acrylics come under many brand names, and consistencies, Stabilit express is one, as is Deluxe materials Super Crylic, Devcon Plastic Welder I and II, Uhu Plus Acrylit, Loctite do a range, as do Starloc adhesives (very competitive prices).

For epoxy my favourite is JB weld marine, as it sands well, and being pigmented is easy to see where you have any where you don't want it.

Most of the glues will sand back, although some epoxies and modified acrylics can be a little chewy, the trick is to mask off areas you don't want overspill on, then apply the glue, that minimises any clean-up required.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 11:22:51 am
With regards to the motor, can you tell me the prop size? I'm guessing it'll be about 40-50mm for a tug that size and scale?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 26, 2019, 02:04:27 pm
Thank you @Subculture for your information and advice. Very interested in the epoxy containing pigment. We were recommended this prop by a UK seller: Raboesch 40mm 3 Blade R/H C-Type.
The hull is 65cm long, 16cm wide (1:50)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 04:56:13 pm
Raboesch tend to be roughly square props e.g. the pitch is roughly equal to the diameter. That tends to work very well with electric motors and is efficient. So I would aim for a shaft speed of between 4-5000rpm, which should give plenty of go, with a bit in reserve if needed.

A 28mm to 35mm brushless outrunner will run a prop that size direct drive all day long with no issues, depending on system voltage you'll want an outrunner that works at either (6v) 700kv or (12v) 350kv.

I'd go for a 6 volts system or 2s lipo/Life and a 700 kv motor e.g. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-aerodrive-dst-700-brushless-outrunner-motor-700kv.html

Esc, something like this is a bit overkill, but not expensive and capable.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingr-tm-brushless-car-esc-30a-w-reverse.html
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Martin (Admin) on June 26, 2019, 05:28:52 pm
Thank you @Subculture for your information and advice. Very interested in the epoxy containing pigment. We were recommended this prop by a UK seller: Raboesch 40mm 3 Blade R/H C-Type.
The hull is 65cm long, 16cm wide (1:50)

ALWAYS test glues, paints, fillers on scrap before committing to the final job!   O0
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 05:38:22 pm
Shouldn't experience any issues with those materials. You need to be careful with modified acrylic on some clear plastics like polycarbonate and PMMA as it can craze them. Epoxy is pretty much inert on anything, but the bond is completely mechanical, so the plastic surfaces need to be well keyed before bonding.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Martin (Admin) on June 26, 2019, 05:53:31 pm
 
Agreed but some ABS / 'hard plastic' single part glues have high solvent content and if used too liberally or the ABS is very thin..... !   {:-{
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on June 26, 2019, 06:38:03 pm
All the glues I listed are twin component adhesives, Martin. You can't fuse wood to ABS, it has to be bonded.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 28, 2019, 01:01:36 am
@Subculture a million thanks for the information and ideas, this is perfect. With your explanation and links along with Andy and Martin's info we have a great base to do some spending (a-hem, I mean research)!! Yeah, will look into these products so we can try to understand them more and how they go together. We were really happy to receive the voltage information, this is something we were wondering about a lot.

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 06, 2019, 11:45:24 am
Spent a few hours each evening this week continuing to work on the wooden bits. Also we got our hands on some Japanese epoxy for the ABS to plywood.


  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/23.jpg)

Used a square sanding block as a guide while coming along with the sides of this section. This was helpful in giving 3 points of contact while glueing
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/24.jpg)

Only the edge of the block was needed to retain square
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/25.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/26.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/27.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/28.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/29.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/30.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/31.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/32.jpg)

So far the laser-cut pieces have been great, only requiring some light sanding here and there. The rear deck was the first time something didn't quite go together flush. Rather than using some filler, we opted to cut, realign then slot in a fillet.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/33.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/34.jpg)

transferred off the model with some tape.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/35.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/36.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/37.jpg)

Towing point assembly
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/38.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/39.jpg)


511 Fittings Kit bundled with the Banckert
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/06/40.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 20, 2019, 03:09:38 am

Began work on the rear deck railings (thanks to tips on the forum about working off a separate board). The stanchions in our case are not moveable post bend due to the tolerances which are impressive =P. The final plunge as to where to make the bends was a good percentage of guesswork. Also rather than have two stanchions at the very back corners (as in the plans), we'd seen other builders bringing them forward a few mil which allows the bend to flow into them better.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/41.jpg)


One point that has required a bit of thought is the curved front of the main structure. After spending a good week trying to soften up the piece (clamping it to the model, clamping it to a paint tin, steaming it, bending it as much as we dared, offering it cash) the edges where it marries up to the sides of the cabin didn't look at all like they would hold.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/42a.jpg)


The sweep of the deck was too much strain on the piece. Tip our hats to those builders who managed this as designed.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/43a.jpg)


Tried cutting out the same shape from a thin plastic binder cover but we weren't happy with that. The flexibility was there but the meeting of the end joints was pants...


Solution: Shallow out the deck curve. Layered and shaped a chunk of MDF to bond the piece to properly.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/20/44.jpg)


The MDF needs a little more work to make everything flush. The section of the removed forward deck shows the original curve versus our modified one. XD
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: derekwarner on July 20, 2019, 03:34:50 am
Excellent build  thread & images Phil22 :-)) 


Just a point of question, is that replacement shaped MDF former heavy? and will you paint the exposed surfaces?.......


Some MDF material + water moisture causes severe  <*< swelling of the MDF



Derek
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 20, 2019, 08:40:01 am
Thanks very much Derek. The MDF piece doesn't have much weight to it at all. It's comparable to a piece of balsa the same size. To keep the weight down though, it'll get hollowed out with the dremel a touch. The MDF has received coats of wood glue during shaping and when ready it'll get a few coats of primer before painting. This should seal it up enough  ;)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 28, 2019, 12:59:51 pm
Our tug is starting to look more like the box =) The wooden parts have been really enjoyable to put together. While the instructions could be a whole lot better, it is definitely rewarding to think carefully about each step and work out what needs doing.
 
This probably won’t be of use to most but on the offhand here are the local (Tokyo) materials we are using.
 
Tin = Undercoat
Bottle = Quick drying wood glue (Excellent stuff)
Box = 2 Part epoxy as recommended by Sugi-san (check out his Banckert on Youtube). Goes off in around 30 minutes but needs 24hrs to cure. Dries clear.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/45.jpg)
 
The epoxy did a great job of maintaining the bend in the stiff plywood. Fashioned a small ply form and left it clamped for 48 hrs.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/46.jpg)


Worked on the basic shell of the rear cabin. As early on we removed the bevel from the bridge floor, the fit is a little out, meaning the rear cabin sits a touch high. This will be an easy fix in simply putting the bridge on a new 3mm base.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/47.jpg)
 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/48.jpg)
 
 
All the wooden fittings that make up the funnel and main mast sections shaped, sanded and ready to assemble.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/49.jpg)
 
 
There is a vent at the base of the funnel which we couldn’t identify at all in the kit. It looks like a part is stuck on over the plywood. Looking online either people have gone with plain wood or got creative. We chose creative and built in louvered fins using the fitment beading.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/50.jpg)
 
 (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/53.jpg)
 
 
Also, there are areas on 3 sides of the funnel in the plans that receive parts (vents). Same issue, couldn’t identify so repeated as above, this time with toothpicks.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/51.jpg)
 
 
Spruce Springstein
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/52.jpg)
 
 
Overall Progress
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/54.jpg)
 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/07/28/55.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Mark T on July 28, 2019, 03:19:15 pm
Your build is looking really nice and I like your solution with the louvered fins  :-))   I suggested to my wife that we build something together - She laughed and mentioned something about causing a divorce  {-)   Keep the updates coming as its a great build.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 30, 2019, 05:33:00 am
Thanks very much Mark.

Really enjoying to read your Fairmount Alpine build diary atm. Stunning finished result!!
Title: Billings Banckert 516 - LED help request
Post by: Phil22 on August 04, 2019, 01:12:08 pm
Being our first build, we made the decision early on not to put in freeing ports going on the assumption that if it is that choppy, we'd not sail that day. In the standard Banckert kit, the rear deck has no coaming. So we've opted to build up the rear deck cover a few mil and add in some coaming for a bit of a safety margin. The rear deck definitely does look better flush but we'll go with caution this time. Perhaps we'll achieve this (and freeing ports) with a future build after acquiring more experience.   

Reworked rear deck cover. This is the first piece to receive some wood filler - still needs sanding flat.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/55b.jpg)

Lower funnel section with some mods

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/56.jpg)


The contact point for the main mast is less than 8mm square. Envisioning the day when it gets knocked and breaks prompted the use of a dowl "bamboo toothpic" (very strong). These are also excellent for accurately applying glue.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/57.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/58.jpg)

More detailing work (Elf hands required).

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/59.jpg)

Prepped 2 initial holes in the funnel for LED wiring

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/60.jpg)

OK hands-up, we are approaching a part that we literally have no experience with. Basic electronics =P. We would really appreciate some help in creating something like either setup below. Thinking to base off a 9V battery, would this work?

2 navigation LEDs, 1 internal bridge LED, 2 LEDs on the V bracket (funnel section) *all LEDs 3mm

Idea A

A chain of 5 white LEDs connected to an on/off switch, a fuse and a battery. Coat 2 LEDs with marker pens (1 green, 1 red) for the navigation lights.

Idea B

1 red LED, 1 green LED and 3 white LEDs connected to an on/off switch, a fuse and a battery. This would be a parallel circuit (we think...). Google mentions different colours of LED require different voltages so with understand 3 different resistor types may be needed.

We've had a go (don't laugh) at producing some circuit diagrams to try and explain

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/61.jpg)(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/04/63.jpg)

Thank you in advance for any help / advice offered.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on August 04, 2019, 02:34:14 pm
Might want to feed the three white led's in parallel too, with dropping resistors for each- makes it easier to fault find if one goes duff.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 06, 2019, 12:59:43 am
Thanks a lot Subculture! That was another of the questions we had.
Regarding the gauge of wire. What would be the thinnest (recommended) option for this simple setup?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on August 06, 2019, 08:54:06 pm
Small  low power LED's only draw 10-20ma at most, so really the finest wire is suitable e.g. 0.1mm2  would be perfectly okay, and can be hidden by slotting masts etc.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 09, 2019, 02:02:20 pm
Thanks again @Subculture appreciate your help. Planning to give things a go this weekend. Found a great electronics shop in Tokyo's Electric Town (Akihabara).
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 17, 2019, 04:14:49 am
Progress!!

Huge thank you to Malcolmfrary and Subculture, we now have working lights [thread: https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63538.msg672251#msg672251 (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63538.msg672251#msg672251)]. This is the first attempt so next is measuring up and refitting for the build.

 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/08/17/67.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 01, 2019, 02:44:08 pm
Found a fantastic electronics supplier in Tokyo's Electric Town (Akihabara) https://www.sengoku.co.jp/shop_01.html (https://www.sengoku.co.jp/shop_01.html)
4 floors of fascination! 1000's of mini drawers and shelves full of components. Customers can buy items individually or in bulk.

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/68.jpg)

 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/69.jpg)



Work on the bridge has progressed a little this week. It looks like the plans have the bridge's ceiling extending out on three sides. We've seen other builders getting the sides flush which we think looks better, so went for this approach.

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/70.jpg)


As we took the bevel off the bridge's deck early in the build, to get to the kit fitting correctly again we added a new base trim.

 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/71.jpg)

The bridge roof section has a high 'faff level'.

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/72.jpg)

Decided to build it off the model having made an outline on a plastic sheet. Didn't fancy trying to glaze this part from the inside either.
Used a couple of other parts to raise the piece up around 6mm. Taping it all down then gave us the ability to slide in the side sections and get them glued. These thin window sections won't take much of a chamfer as there isn't much material around the sills.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/73.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/74.jpg)


Overall build

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/76.jpg)

Some initial detail work (couldn't wait any longer  {-) )

  (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/01/77b.png)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 08, 2019, 12:09:45 pm

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/78.jpg)


The upper window section has been the most challenging part of the build so far. The plans are far too general.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/80.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/79.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/81.jpg)


Not sure which species of wood is used for the heavily curved parts but the fact that grain runs vertically (at least in our kit), so far 2 of 5 parts (1mm thick) have snapped while coaxing them into the shape required. Last pic: part A snapped and was unsalvageable, part B snapped and was rescued, mostly thanks to the wood filler.

This has been the only real disappointment with the kit. The other plywood parts have largely been great to work with.
 

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/82.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/08/83.jpg)


A little more detailing required on the filler areas.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on September 08, 2019, 02:18:16 pm
Coming along nicely.  And I guess we have all found parts in kits which were only suitable for the bin. If we are lucky they are straightforward to reproduce from our own materials. You seem to be coping well with the occasional rogue, and the whole boat is looking good. Well done.   :-)) :-))

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 09, 2019, 10:59:23 am
Thanks a lot Greg for your comment. Overall we are thoroughly enjoying the build, these little hurdles all add to the interest at the end of the day.

 {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on September 09, 2019, 09:58:55 pm
Dry wood will only bend so far.  Usual practice in modelling circles is to soak, or steam and set in place.  I don't think the destructions are necessarily at fault for not saying that because it's such a common thig to do when working with wooden parts in models.  But in your case I would probably have done the same thing -and just used polystyrene instead!  I guess that sounds a bit hard though!  It looks a brilliant biuld though.  A Bankert has been taunting me in my local shop for ages, not for best part of £300 though!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 10, 2019, 01:03:36 am
Hi RST,

Yeah much still to learn. Thanks for the tips.
£300 for the kit only or for a full build price? FYI Kitstop (Address: 20 Oxton Rd, Birkenhead CH41 2QJ, UK) quoted me £180 for the kit.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 22, 2019, 01:58:37 pm

Progress since the last comment has mostly involved filling and sanding. From last year I started collecting useful Banckert build images which have been invaluable so far. The range of detailing ideas from various modelers is great to see.

Strengtheners epoxied to the ABS deck

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/84.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/85.jpg)


Made a start on the the wiring having decided where the 5 LEDs will go. 2 on the mast, 1 on the bridge, 2 port/starboard lights.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/86.jpg)


The back of the deck is a flat panel in the kit. We wanted to add more detail so vented it out and propped up with bits of brass wire.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/87.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/88.jpg)


Getting there slowly but having fun with the build!

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/22/89.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 09, 2019, 09:47:32 am

Work has continued on the handrails and this time we’ve had some good results with the slow drying epoxy over solder.

The front of the bridge in official pics has a rounded section front-center not shown in the instructions.

First off roughly cut the rails to size, measured out the distance between stanchions on a board (we tried 32mm to allow for the radius bend later).

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/91b.jpg)
 
Trimmed and filed off the excess material then moved the handrails back and forth the draw the epoxy into the stanchions. 

Propped the piece up with a square while drying. Used a crank handle to bend the piece around then prepped light pilot holes in the plywood.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/92.jpg)


Moving onto the side rails followed the same process this time over two days to give the epoxy time to go off before working on the opposite ends.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/90.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/93a.png)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/94b.png)


So far they’ve stood up well to the forces exerted while bending into shape. This approach has been much easier / neater than first making holes in the plywood THEN getting each section to fit.

Found that chopping a little off the larger stanchions stops them from bending when being tickled with the hammer. (Same length as the shorter ones works best)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/95.jpg)



Now for the challenging bit

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/96.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 09, 2019, 01:30:33 pm

Overall results

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/97.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/09/98.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 13, 2019, 11:11:12 am
The epoxy approach when putting together the railing sections has proved much easier for us than using solder.

For our build we wanted something a little unique, we extended the rear cabin a touch to create a (theoretical) platform to access to the funnel mounted ladder.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/100.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/101.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/104.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/103.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/102.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 13, 2019, 11:27:04 am

A couple more of the brass details

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/97.jpg)


Radar and guard

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/13/98.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 24, 2019, 07:22:41 am
Hey MBM,

For those interested. A colour version of the Banckert 516 build instructions can be downloaded here:

https://www.billingboatsusa.com/experienced/42-516-banckert.html (https://www.billingboatsusa.com/experienced/42-516-banckert.html)

Size: 874 kb
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 27, 2019, 10:25:38 am
Steady work on the handrails has continued over this past week. They’re almost done bar buttoning up a few small areas.  Daunting at first, but with thought and some trial and error we are happy with the results for a first effort.  We’ve picked up a few new skills and tips along the way ; )


Port and starboard handrails from the deck to the bridge


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/112.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/113.jpg)


A cutting mat provides a great visual aid when putting bends in the required spots


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/114.jpg)


The ladder is supported by a small piece of ply under the top step - helpful during mockup as for each rail there is only one point of contact at the stanchion


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/115.jpg)


As not to have open joints on the stanchions these extra details were fitted


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/116.jpg)


The full set of brass parts


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/118.jpg)


The instructions have the rails of this section (left side) going into the rear cabin wall. For ease of fitting and for something different we made them this way (right side - pre-trimmed 'P' shaped part)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/119.jpg)


--

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/120.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/121.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/10/27/122.jpg)


The intention so far was to go with a brushless motor (like this: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-aerodrive-dst-700-brushless-outrunner-motor-700kv.html?___store=en_us (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-aerodrive-dst-700-brushless-outrunner-motor-700kv.html?___store=en_us)) but I’ve since read that brushless struggle a bit a low revs. Would a brushed motor be more suited for this build?


Thanks for reading and any information shared.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 27, 2019, 10:50:20 am
I’ve since read that brushless struggle a bit a low revs. Not wishing to build a speed-tug, would a brushed motor be more suited for this build?

They're referring to cogging at very low rpm, which applies to sensorless set-ups. This is pretty much eliminated on modern brushless esc's.

On a boat this makes little to no difference, as the prop is essentially a fluid clutch e.g. it slips. Cogging can cause issues on model cars that like to run slow e.g. rock crawlers, where lots of torque is required and lots of sensitivity at low throttle settings.

In short I wouldn't let it concern you.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 27, 2019, 11:05:26 am
Hey Subculture

Thank you as always for the helpful clarification and insight. We'll be getting to grips with the electronic components in the near future as the structure nears completion.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Mark T on October 27, 2019, 02:05:03 pm
There's some really nice work that the two of you have carried out there.  Its looking very nice indeed  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 27, 2019, 02:37:58 pm
Whilst on the subject of epoxy, I find a coat of epoxy resin on wooden parts, mixed with a little bit of talcum powder, seals and strengthens everything beautifully before priming. Once the epoxy is lightly cut back (the talcum powder is optional but helps the sanding), it seals and smooths the grain giving a smooth surface more like the plastic parts
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on October 27, 2019, 08:44:01 pm
Instead of talcum powder I use Microballoons, costs more but I find it sands better and gives a really good finish. (won't smell as good when sanding though)
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 27, 2019, 09:32:12 pm
I once used some microballoons as a substitute for fumed silica when thickening some epoxy to use as a gelcoat- that was an experiment, but a big mistake. When I was post finishing the mould I ended up with lots of tiny pock marks, which I believe were the microballoons so I only tend to use them for areas which won't be sanded back.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on October 28, 2019, 10:20:36 am
Sounds like you were using a lot more microballoons than I would use to seal and fill the surface of wood. Some of the earlier microballoons (especially the brown phenolic type) were larger than those available today (the white type seem to be very small) so could have lead to a pock marked surface. When I have used them to produce a sanding sealer only a small quantity was needed as they are there to fill the grain of the wood not to give a thick layer. When sanded I have not seen any pock marks on the surface, with the surface  ending up as smooth as styrene sheet.
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on October 28, 2019, 07:09:50 pm
I once used some microballoons as a substitute for fumed silica when thickening some epoxy to use as a gelcoat- that was an experiment, but a big mistake. When I was post finishing the mould I ended up with lots of tiny pock marks, which I believe were the microballoons so I only tend to use them for areas which won't be sanded back.
If you could see the pock marks with the naked eye then it was probably air bubbles in the mixture.  Microballoons are, as the name implies, very small indeed and you cannot distinguish them in the epoxy matrix.  However they do stiffen the mixture, which makes it a lot harder to get air bubbles out, so you need to be quite gentle mixing them in.  But they do make sanding so much easier, and with care and good luck you can get a baby's bum finish as witnessed by Jim.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on October 29, 2019, 12:09:27 am
Any excess epoxy on the handrails easily came off with a scrape from a craft knife, while leaving the joint intact. There are 5 or 6 more details to go on for the rigging then its on to hull strengthening and prep for the electronics.

Thanks to all for your input on working with wood surfaces. Good info to know

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Subculture on October 29, 2019, 07:11:29 am
Wasn’t air. The little marks showed once I compounded the tools. Only the part of the tool which had the micro balloons showed the marks. On something that is going to be painted it’s no big deal, but this was a tool to mould from. It was still usable, but I made a mental note not to use microballoons for that purpose.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 16, 2019, 03:44:21 pm
Well, we thought the brass bits were all wrapped up. Not quite, but it’s okay as they’ve turned out to be real fun to make.

The last parts (watch this space….) are for the mast rigging. Puzzling on how best to attach the lines, a few ideas were tried out including creating various hooks and looping the wire back on itself. None of which looked particularly neat. Finally we settled on chopping up unused stanchions and soldering the trimmed hole sections to the ends.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/123.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/124.jpg)


To stop the nano-bits from moving about while soldering they where each threaded onto some spare wire then taped down like so.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/125.jpg)


They should hold well.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/126.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/127.jpg)


Lastly got an initial undercoat on and some surface leveling.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/11/16/128.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on February 27, 2020, 06:54:17 am
After 3 months away from the build and out of winter hibernation, the Banckert has officially been pulled back out from under the bed. Game on!

First off, I put together a list of everything that still needs doing (that I’m aware of). This I’m sure, will fall into some kind of clearer order as the work continues. Secondly, I took stock of the remaining unassembled and unused parts. It is starting to look more like the box - on the outside ; P

 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/27/123.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 15, 2020, 08:04:59 am
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/15/DSCN2480.jpg)

Been working on the wooden deck rails and moorings this week. Some tapering of the bollards is required to allow for vertical fitment against the hull.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/15/DSCN2488.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/15/DSCN2504.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/15/DSCN2517.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/15/DSCN2510.jpg)

For the curved pieces, we tried lightly scoring the underside of the rails then applied a coat of wood glue.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/15/DSCN2520.jpg)

This seemed to work ok but the scores are kinda visible and not sure on their durability. Previously other members have mentioned heating or soaking. What are some recommended processes to setup for each approach?

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/15/DSCN2521.jpg)

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on March 15, 2020, 10:33:04 pm
The scores can probably be filled with a small amount of wood filler and if your glue is good then the curved bits should be as durable as the rest of the rail.

However, if you want to try something else, you can steam small pieces like this in a microwave.  Wrap the piece in a few layers of kitchen towel then soak in water. Pop it into an unsealed plastic bag and put it in the microwave for 2 minutes. Take it out (it will be HOT - wear gloves) and push into place and clamp it there until dry/cool.  The grain will have been raised a bit but some gentle sanding will get rid of that.

Another alternative is to laminate several layers of veneer.  Make up a blank with the same profile as the rail and cut as many strips of veneer as it takes to build up the right thickness.  Lay them in place with glue, clamp down and leave to dry.

I still think this is an outstanding first build.

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 17, 2020, 12:00:26 am
Hey Greg,

Thanks very much for the reply and information. Will give the microwave approach a few tries and see what type of results can be had. I guess there might not be another build for some time after this one, so we're enjoying taking our time with it.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 30, 2020, 02:21:42 pm
Hi All,

We'd really appreciate the help of the forum members with guidance on the stuffing tube and prop setup. Looking around we've not yet found many answers as we are still in fact unsure of the questions. We understand that all builds are unique and have their own requirements. I think what we are needing is a crash/sink course (hopefully not lol) in what is what.

The Banckert kit contains:

- Brass stuffing tube 98mm x 6mm (5mm inside diameter) x 1
- Brass prop shaft 135mm x 3.5mm diameter (3mm thread diameter - 10mm of thread) x 1
- Brass nut x 1
- Plastic prop x 1 (not intending to use)
(Think the second small brass nut shown is a detail part)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/30/106.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/30/107.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/30/108.jpg)


:: Stuffing Tube - Propeller Shaft ::

We want to put in a 40mm brass prop (4 blade), the one we've seen online here in Tokyo has a 4mm (M4) thread.

- Is the kit's stuffing tube 98mm x 6mm (5mm inside dim) suitable to take a prop shaft connected to a 4mm prop?
- Is there a minimum gap or internal clearance needed within the stuffing tube and the prop shaft?
- Should the stuffing tube be any longer?


:: O-rings :: Warning REAL NEWBIE Q's here

- (Hesitate to ask this one) Are they required on both ends of the prop shaft?
          Does the nut next to the prop work with the grease to stop water ingress?

- Where are o-rings placed and how are they kept in place?

:: Play ::


I've read various things about play in the prop shaft. Some articles say a bit is needed, others warn of it as the prop hull or both may be damaged especially when reversing.

The hull is still intact, we'll keep it this way until we are certain we know how to proceed on with this area.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/30/105.jpg)

Unsure of the name of this part below. It has a 6mm internal diameter

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/30/109.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/30/110.jpg)


The skeg (right terminology??) is around 5mm wide at the point where the stuffing tube should exit.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/03/30/111.jpg)

There's a lot in this post and probably the most crucial thing to get right. Your experience on how to tackle this part of the build would be sincerely welcome.

Thank you for any info or advice shared.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on March 30, 2020, 03:50:36 pm
The first thing to discuss is that there don't appear to be any bearings in the end of the stuffing tube.  Your shaft is clearly smaller than the internal diameter of the tube, so you need a bearing at each end of the tube.  If you haven't already done so, can you search through your fittings and see if there are two brass/bronze collars that look like they would be a tight push fit in each end of the tube and are a snug fit around the shaft?  If you try and fit things as they stand you will end up with a very noisy, leaky arrangement (o-rings notwithstanding).  If you cannot find any bearings, I suggest you buy a ready made tube with bearings included (which will almost certainly include a new shaft, but that's better than no bearings at all).  There are plenty available on the internet, such as these (https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Caldercraft-Standard-4mm-Thread-Prop-Shafts-M4.html).

On the subject of o-rings - no, you don't need them.  Assuming you get some bearings of the right size in each end of the tube, a little bit of waterproof grease will see you home and dry (!).  You could usefully put a brass washer between the locking nut and the end of the tube, and similarly on the inboard end for when you run in reverse.

Play in the propshaft - you need a tiny bit of play, enough that when you push and pull you can feel there is a little movement, but not so much that you can actually see it move.  You are looking for as tight a fit as you can without there being any binding as the shaft rotates.

And this hardware should be fine with a 40mm prop.  If you get the bearings in place.

Hope that all helps.

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: tica on March 30, 2020, 06:02:48 pm
HI
There should be 2 brass/bronze collars looking like that one in this photo (Taken from my fittings bag for Banckert) the shall be pressed into the tube.
R
Carsten
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 01, 2020, 11:43:04 am
.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 01, 2020, 11:44:53 am
Our huge thanks to @SailorGreg and @tica

The info which you both shared has helped in our understanding enormously!!!! You've also raised our confidence with this aspect of the build.

As you mentioned Greg and as Carsten pointed out in the photo, those 2 bearings are present in the kit for the stuffing tube. We had no idea as there are many little brass details not listed in the manual. All good now ; )

For the prop-shaft requiring a tiny bit of play. I image this could be something we can hear more than see when assembling the components. A kind of small "knock" maybe?

Now that we understand more about what is what, we are thinking to go with a smaller size (M3) prop and use the kit's parts unless we can find a brass 4 blade (38~40mm) on a 3mm thread.


Thank you again you've really helped a lot.


 
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on April 02, 2020, 09:59:43 am
Regarding the propeller, Prop Shop (https://www.prop-shop.co.uk/products.php?cat=standard-scale) do a huge range, but their standard threads are M2 or M4.  However, if you are really keen, they will probably do you a one-off with a M3 thread.

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on April 02, 2020, 10:32:19 pm
I first thought, M3, you'll be lucky but Cornwall model boats stock plenty of M3 props, including those for a kort nozzle, from Raboesh etc. If your prop tube (no American terminology) is 6mm OD though I would personally recommend changing to M4 slimline and fitting the built-in oiler/greasing point also.


Rich
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 05, 2020, 12:05:31 pm
The microwave wood bending tip from SailorGreg is working well. Should have the handrails wrapped soon. Thank you to Greg and Rich for the links and pointers.

Here are a few progress shots.

Added 5mm of combing to the access hatch. This went together really smoothly as cutting the long pieces on the proud side allowed for the model to cut into the ends, effectively locking them in place. They'll get some kind of protective coat before gluing them.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/05/129.jpg)

To the underside of the hatch we fit these five grabs.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/05/130.jpg)

Two of the rope guides are in. The one on the stern still needs a mounting point

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/05/133.jpg)

Base for the bridge mast.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/05/131.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/05/132.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 26, 2020, 12:51:50 pm
We've worked on a few things since the last post. Used up more of the bits from the supplied fittings kit.

The winch is assembled. Trimmed down the levers a touch.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/133.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/134.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/135.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/136.jpg)


It was the the first time to try out Tamiya Epoxy Putty, found it to be excellent. Watched a few YouTube vids and a top tip is keep your hands wet when rolling and forming it into shape. Dries out great and then easy to file/sand. Used here to fix the tow rope guide to its wooden base.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/137.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/138.jpg)


Some lighting shots. Still in two minds on the best way to approach this. Probably practice with a few more circuit designs before deciding.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/139.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/140.jpg)


Decided to try our hand at laying a wooden deck. Created templates then used strips of 2mm x 5mm.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/141.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/142.jpg)


Used some graphite to darken one edge of each piece for contrast. (Photo shows a test piece with both edges darkened. The effect was too heavy - one edge only looks better!)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/143.jpg)


My girlfriend made an absolutely cracking job of the forward deck.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/144.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/04/26/145.jpg)



Can move on to shaping tomorrow.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on May 03, 2020, 10:50:42 am

We finished up shaping the deck sections this week. Initially the idea was to have the superstructure sit in various cutouts in the sections, remaining in contact with the plastic from where all of the measurements/fitment have been made so far. It half worked but did leave some gaps that kept catching the eye. This led to some reworking to now have the superstructure and rear hatch resting on the new deck. All the bits will get epoxied down later on after coats of stain and varnish.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/05/03/146.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/05/03/147.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/05/03/148.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/05/03/149.jpg)


Today began trimming the hull down to match up with the deck.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/05/03/150.jpg)

Thanks for looking.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: ballastanksian on May 03, 2020, 12:13:50 pm
She looks a treat Phil and Co  :-)) The cardboard template idea is good but I recommend that if retained, you seal it well against moisture to prevent expansion and warping.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on May 03, 2020, 05:36:28 pm
Hello Phil. Pleased to find this thread on coming back to the forum after some time. As I am probably locked down for months due to my missus being highly vulnerable, I went up in the loft and dug out all my half-finished and yet-to-start projects. One of these is my Billings Banckert, which as far as I can work out I actually started somewhere around 1985!! I got it complete except for  some detailing and had it powered up and on the water with a 27 MHz set. For a variety of reasons it has been  consigned to the loft for years, until the start of the lockdown. It took a helluva lot of cleaning!
I have kept the old 6v Monoperm motor with the original prop as it worked very well on the water. I am replacing the r/c with a modern 2.4GHz set, new battery pack obviously, and a solid state speed controller to replace the old resistance unit. I have had to get the old stuff out through the top deck cutouts, which has been a bit of a job, but the new stuff is all smaller and easier to get in.
I have only had a relatively small amount of detailing to do, masts and aerials, top deck railings and fittings, etc., but all I have to work from is the drawing and two photos that I cut from the original box. I see from your photos that you have started the railings from the top, can I just offer a couple of observations?
 The pipes to the fire monitors are a right pig because they have to be bent in three planes, and you have to make the port one a mirror image of the starboard one, which is easier said than done. On mine , part of the monitor-deck railings had to be cut away for the pipes to go through, and I also found it very difficult to get their entries into the base of the funnel evenly lined up.. What probably made things worse was the 25-year -plus gap between making the port one and making the starboard one!
 Hopefully your instructions will remind you, but don't forget to fit the access rungs onto the deckhouse side that go from adjacent to the wheelhouse doors up to the deck in front of the funnel - BEFORE you fit the other railings. I didn't realise I had missed them till all the railings were fixed in place, which makes it very, very difficult to fit them , and that's what I am currently struggling with.
  I'm looking forward to following your build. I think your modelling standards are probably higher than mine, which makes me a bit embarrassed to attach photos, but what the hell, mine will be the best I can manage. And I think I might be able to stake a claim for the longest time to complete a model! :-)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on May 05, 2020, 05:05:05 am

Thanks very much for your help @ballastanksian and @SteveH, really appreciate the advice from yourselves and this brilliant forum.

Bought some wood stain for the decking, going to see how that turns out today. The wood will get sealed with clear varnish top and bottom before being epoxied to the ABS. There is some undulation (by design) in the ABS, need to buy more clamps for the task.

"And I think I might be able to stake a claim for the longest time to complete a model! :-)" LOOOL, thank you for sharing your experience Steve, would be great to see photos of your Banckert. Noted your recommendation on access rungs, cheers. Our superstructure parts aren't yet connected so access is still OK. Due to making the small platform to the funnel mounted ladder, there is about a 5-rung offcut which might get used for the deckhouse ladder. About the pipes to the fire-monitors, while not true to the build, we decided to leave them out pretty early on. I did have a go but like you said they are a pig. Skill limit met. Maybe I'll have another go down the line. BTW PM me if you need any more reference info.

RE: Vents on the funnel, I owe Billing's an apology. Previously, we could not find the parts for the funnel vents at all. The other day I spotted them on the decals sheet.... ;)
Also the thread on the supplied propshaft is M4 (not M3). Now verified with an M4 bolt.

Bilge keel question.
The clip below is of a superb Banckert build by a Japanese modeler. His bilge keel placement we guess looks on the money from what we have read which is:

- length around 1/3 of the hull
- positioned 45 degrees from their mounting points on the hull
- they need to be above the hull's baseline

Bilge keel shot at (02:54) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImoP06JkoA8

Would appreciate any information on tackling these. Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: thething84 on June 04, 2020, 09:02:01 am
wow you are doing amazing work. I have been away for quite some time but have a half started kit prior to the laser cut ply pieces in a cupboard. I purchased ti half started and didn't like the superstructure which had been made rather poorly. So I started remaking out of plasticard. I may have to put it back out the cupboard and try and carry on with it. If it looks half as good as yours does I will be happy.

Keep up the amazing work.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on June 06, 2020, 04:50:48 pm
Phil-22, haven't heard from you for a while, I hope the virus has not got at you? When you read this, check your Inbox, I sent you a PM.


My Billings Banckert is finally complete after a 35 year build !! Started in 1985, three-quarters finished , and banished to the loft ever since after a house move. Finally detailed and finished thanks to the Covid lockdown. Oh well,better late than never.  :embarrassed:


Now trying to figure out how to get it down to the lake and tested without going near anyone.


If I can figure out how to reduce the file size of my photos I will post a couple, my phone camera  appears to produce jpeg's of over 2MB. Advice welcomed...
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 07, 2020, 12:11:40 pm
Thanks so much for the kind words and encouragement @thething84 appreciate it! Did your Banckert come with the ABS hull too? I think I read somewhere that originally it was planked. How is your plasticard rebuild of the superstructure coming along? Be great to see some shots!

Hi SteveH,
Congratulations!!!! The best things take time as they say : )

Yeah all good here thanks! Nice one for the info about her operating in Iran under the name Takavar. The link to vesselfinder and the slipway pic: https://www.vesselfinder.com/ship-photos/139147 (https://www.vesselfinder.com/ship-photos/139147), will help with the bilge keels.

We found these resources useful:
Banckert circa April, 1983
http://merseamuseum.org.uk/mmphoto.php?pid=ASH055&hit=432&tot=2557 (http://merseamuseum.org.uk/mmphoto.php?pid=ASH055&hit=432&tot=2557)

Nice collection of shots
https://www.varenderfgoed.nl/nieuwezee/banckert.html (https://www.varenderfgoed.nl/nieuwezee/banckert.html)


About resizing images MS Paint has a resize button.
Open your image in Paint > Press Resize > Then select a percentage of the original file dimensions > Save as a different filename if you want to keep the original pic.


On a Mac, open an image in Preview > Tools > Adjust Size > Enter a new width, height and resolution.
(^ this is how I do it, set width to 12cm (height will auto resize if selected) and set Resolution to 150)

Cheers again!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 07, 2020, 12:57:54 pm
On a bit of a break atm but this where things are up to:


Another undercoat on all ply parts. Planked deck pre-stain and varnish.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/152.jpg)

Forward portholes installed

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/153.jpg)

Stained, sanded and varnished x2 rounds

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/154.jpg)

Going for the weathered worn look

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/155.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/156.jpg)

Funnel gets a topcoat - mast to go either mustard-yellow (original colour) or white

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/157.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/158.jpg)

Trimmed down the anchors, took another 3mm off the offcuts then bonded the bits at right angles. The thinking here being, that if we put anchor recesses into the hull, they might interfere with the bow wave as the model looks like it sits low. We'll see.
 
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/159.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/160.jpg)

Probably never a candidate for any technical schematic awards LOL, it sure helped to figure out where things go with our noob custom circuit attempts hahahaha


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/161.jpg)

Results - this is the mockup to see if it worked. Resistors and LEDs to be trimmed down with the next version.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/06/07/162.jpg)


Thanks for looking.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Mark T on June 07, 2020, 01:41:30 pm
Thats looking great and a very clean, crisp and tidy job too
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on June 07, 2020, 05:25:11 pm
Thanks for the photo links, Phil, and the advice on resizing. I have had a go with the resize function on my laptop so I will try adding a resized shot as an attachment. Fingers crossed! :-)

It worked!!

Crew members are two modified deserters from a 1:48 B24 Liberator plastic kit. I like to think the one is telling the other to get his 'bottom'  down on deck and give him a hand.......
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Dave_S. on June 07, 2020, 06:46:15 pm
That is certainly a very smart first build. Whereabouts in Oxfordshire are you?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on June 07, 2020, 09:50:35 pm
That is certainly a very smart first build. Whereabouts in Oxfordshire are you?


Dave, I am in Abingdon. I could put my boats on the river (Thames) if its calm enough, but I get a bit concerned about the "traffic"-  some of the rowers don't even seem able to see my sailing dinghy, let alone a model boat. The marina slipway is too weedy, so Hinksey lake is my nearest suitable water. Thanks for the compliment; it isn't actually my first build, that was a Graupner Marina, but they are very simple. I have actually just restored it for my grandsons to play with.
That's a good thing about model boats, they are remarkably long-lived. I bought an r/c Thames barge last year from an old chap in Somerset, although it is a moulded hull ( I think it is from an HFM? kit) it must be twenty years old at least, but a bit of repainting and refurbishing and a new 2.4 r/c set and its good for another twenty! Unless it goes down with all hands, of course...... :D
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Dave_S. on June 07, 2020, 09:58:18 pm
I'm just up the road from you, then, on the A415 towards Witney. I was at Hinksey this morning, there were several people with boats there. I was on the water for about three hours.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 09, 2020, 11:57:03 am
Cheers @MarkT for the compliment, having a lot of fun and enjoyment building the kit.

Hi Steve,


Really happy to see a post of your Banckert. Well done indeed!

You've made an outstanding job of it and looks really true to the plans. The age of the kit adds to the appeal having a real-world look about it. Great work with the pipes to the fire monitors too.  I'm interested to know if and how you made the material bumper (unsure of the technical term).

If you don't start a comeback thread for your build, feel free to post more shots on this thread, especially when you get her back on the water =)

Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 09, 2020, 12:17:01 pm
1982 movie recorded aboard the Banckert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0obXBLjCs9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0obXBLjCs9Y)

Translation of Dutch description of the footage: "Various recordings of the Banckert, ex Maasbank, de Ruyter and the Van Woelderen. With the Cardium from Vlissingen to the Oosterschelde works towed by the Breedbank, the Smitbank and the Indusbank in March 1982"
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on June 10, 2020, 10:10:12 pm
Phil, the bow fender on my Banckert is a Caldercraft accessory (100mm size), bought online.It is not really correct scale for the model but the lake where I will use it most has a concrete edge, and given that it is just a plastic hull I didn't want to chance damage through accidentally ramming it. I didn't think the scale soft plastic fender on the kit was really up to the job.
A question for you - does your kit have load line  decals/stickers? my decal sheet is long gone and I can't remember if they were there or not.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on June 11, 2020, 12:34:23 pm
Thank you Steve, spotted the fender online now.

Checking the decal sheet, the load line isn't there. Decals of the name Maasbank, Banckert and the funnel vents are included.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: canabus on June 11, 2020, 12:45:21 pm
Hi Phil22
On your drawing of the LED circuit if you use one dropping resistor in the negative input line this will drop the voltage to all the LED's.
Save having a resistor of every LED .
Canabus
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: ballastanksian on June 11, 2020, 09:28:11 pm
Looking fab Phil and co! I liked the schematic for the electronicals  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on June 12, 2020, 09:57:50 am
1982 movie recorded aboard the Banckert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0obXBLjCs9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0obXBLjCs9Y)

Translation of Dutch description of the footage: "Various recordings of the Banckert, ex Maasbank, de Ruyter and the Van Woelderen. With the Cardium from Vlissingen to the Oosterschelde works towed by the Breedbank, the Smitbank and the Indusbank in March 1982"



Thanks for finding this, Phil. Perhaps like me you find researching the vessel almost as interesting as the build. Trouble is, I now have EVEN MORE detailing to do........ {:-{
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 04, 2020, 04:18:54 am
We hope everyone is keeping safe and well.

Had to layoff the build for a month, still slowly coming back from a bout of tendonitis. While no actual work went on, a shed load of thinking continued. Understanding that this is a large part of the hobby ... and its appeal =P


The circuit for the navigation lights was dismantled and refitted into the superstructure. We are very happy with how it turned out as we now have reds, greens and a white which was the goal. Our first test builds had 5 white LEDs with the intention to add colour to them with cellophane or similar. This didn't look good at all. Again a big thanks to good people of this forum in getting us this far.

Update shots

1st fingers crossed moment - was the circuit dismantling and reassembly successful?

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/04/163.jpg)

2nd fingers crossed moment - chopping out the mast section of the circuit then reattaching after fitting. Things are pretty tight.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/04/164.jpg)

Earlier in the build log we asked about the best way to seal the exposed underside of the LEDs on the mast. Vanish was one answer. Could paint be used too? Any other methods recommended by members?

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/04/165.jpg)

A few pieces of furniture to hide the wires.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/04/166.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/04/167.jpg)

Painting under way

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/04/168.jpg)

Map table for the bridge. Any ideas where this might be in the UK? ; )

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/04/169.jpg)

@SteveH did you manage to get to the water with your Banckert?

Have a good weekend all!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on July 20, 2020, 09:00:47 pm
Phil 22 - I did manage to get my Banckert on the River Thames last week when the rowers were all having a breather.
It has a Monoperm motor and I thought I would try it with a 6v lead acid brick first of all, the biggest one I could squeeze through the hatch space was only 1.3 Amp Hr but I thought if necessary I could parallel two of them.I could squeeze in a 7.2v nicad pack but the brick is heavier and it needs all the ballast it can get. There is a load of lead under the fore deck, a couple of M16x200 steel bolts under the aft hatch  and a couple of fishing weights right at the stern, and it still floats with about 5mm of boot topping out of the water.
Scale speed is fine with 6v so I will stick with that for now, might want a bit more oomph if i start towing things. At full speed the prop tends to push the stern up and the bow down, but nothing too alarming. Had a bit of trouble with the steering linkages , I think the grease in the rudder stock tubes had gone hard after all these years, but it freed up eventually. Steering ahead is quite sensitive, but awful when going astern - I think it might be the hull form - and it makes it worse if you try full rudder. The two rudders  almost close onto each other so it is like pushing a flat plate through the water.
Anyway, all went well, but I had to take it out because motor cruisers started to turn up and their bow waves are like miniature tsunamis for a 1:48 boat.
Couple of photos attached.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Dave_S. on July 20, 2020, 09:44:50 pm
Looks good on the water - try Hinksey park on a Thursday afternoon, no motor cruisers there!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Martin (Admin) on July 22, 2020, 04:36:08 pm
 
 Fantastic!   :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on July 25, 2020, 03:52:37 pm
Hi All,

@SteveH: She looks great on the water, you've set a high bar indeed. Really happy to see some shots, thanks too for the helpful insights. We've read on a few threads that the stock rudders aren't the best. Will need a lot more reading up on the topic.

I've been looking at potential ballast candidates in my local DIY stores here in Tokyo. From your info sounds like we'll need a lot. Is ballast secured with any type of fixing or bond? Seen people online pouring epoxy over stainless nuts deep in the hull, this looks absolute and wondered if it's a usual approach...

Thanks!!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on September 23, 2020, 10:41:32 am
Progress has been very slow due to ongoing tendonitis. It's really frustrating, then again it's about the journey and not the finishing. So I keep telling myself.....

Here are some updates from when I was in better form.

The last of the laser cut parts, first coat of primer.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/171.jpg)

It may be useful for future builders to know, that these are the only parts in the fittings kit that are functional. Everything else is a detail.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/172.jpg)

Repurposed the lamp shades as bases for the rigging. These will provide better contacts than only the brass wire itself going into the ply.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/173.jpg)

Most of the boat has not been fitted together yet, so access is good. Screws will hold the funnel to the sleeper and that to the bridge.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/174.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/174b.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/175.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/176.jpg)

The plan is to do the upper decks in green. To get crisp edges, we cut these overlays from 0.8mm plasticard to get primed and painted.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/177.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/179.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/23/180.jpg)

Thanks for looking.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: dougal99 on September 23, 2020, 12:02:35 pm
Very neat looking work.  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 07, 2020, 04:34:32 am
Thanks for the kind comment @dougal99

Well it has been a busy past few weeks. We moved home and have almost unpacked everything.   

Some light work has been completed, mostly with painting and a few details. The amount of expansion in the wooden decking is surprising as the weather has turned colder. Across the beam up to 3mm, so before permanent fitting it'll need more attention.

The superstructure details have received a starter coat of metal primer. These will go dark gun-metal later.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/182a.jpg)


The plasticard deck inserts were undercoated and painted. Blue looked better than the green we'd picked out for the bridge and sleeper.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/183.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/184.jpg)


The inserts all need glueing in position. That'll be done before the handrails go in.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/185.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/186.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/187.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/188.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/189a.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/190.jpg)


The towing gear detailing is now completed, this was particularly fun to do. It helped to make a small hole to feed the thread into before winding. The 'ropes' have been superglued in a couple of spots so are now fixed in position.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/191.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/192.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/193.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/194.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/195.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/196a.jpg)


Eye-hooks have been added to join the handrails to the base of the stairs.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/197.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/198.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/07/199.jpg)

Thanks for looking. Have nice weekend all.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: davejo90 on November 07, 2020, 08:08:33 am
I love the brass work Phil, I think you've done a fantastic job on that, in fact the whole thing looks great
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteveH on November 07, 2020, 08:05:00 pm
Phil, why did you go for wooden decks? none of the photos I have seen of the actual tug looked like wood planking to me, and I think it would be unusual on a working vessel of this age and type. It's all looking very good, I must say. Are you going to put an inflatable or RIB tender on yours? I had a few goes at making one but gave up and bought a 3D printed one from Mastman, and plonked it on a bit of framing on the sloping bit just aft of the ensign staff  - looks reasonably like the one in the "in service" photos.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 08, 2020, 12:06:30 pm
Cheers @davejo90 and SteveH for the comments. Yeah, the idea to add a wooden deck is simply because it's how we want to build the boat. I did have a try at putting together a small platform for an inflatable though this was after the vents were made so it looked out of place. Have you done anymore detailing on your Banckert Steve? Add any shots here if you'd like anytime ;)

Having searched on google.nl then using Chrome's translate page option, I've found some great build threads here: https://www.modelbouwforum.nl/ (https://www.modelbouwforum.nl/)
Searches also led to some interesting shots of the Steenbank in Belgian Navy livery at marinetraffic.com

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/08/a950.png)
Credit: https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:107588/mmsi:205216000/imo:5339743/vessel:STEENBANK (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:107588/mmsi:205216000/imo:5339743/vessel:STEENBANK)

Next job here is to paint the brasswork.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 30, 2020, 05:50:11 am
Hi All,

The majority of the brasswork has now been painted and fitted. The assembly of the superstructure came together in an afternoon as is almost complete. For the mast, there are safely rails, the radar, radar guard and some rigging to do in the next few days. 

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/30/200.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/30/201.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/30/202.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/30/203.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/30/204.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/30/205.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/11/30/206.jpg)

It'll be the radio gear installation through winter then painting the hull in spring when the weather gets warmer =)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on December 09, 2020, 06:15:19 am
With a glass of red close by for those brief stops when waiting for the superglue to bite. The Banckert's simple rigging was another enjoyable stage of the build. The lines themselves are 0.5mm elastic picked up from a sewing shop. Glued under mild tension, the hope is they'll all stay taut.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/12/09/208.jpg)

There's an ensign staff and material flag provided with the kit. Wondering what methods are used by members to:

- stop these types of flags from fraying when cutting?
- how to shape them into a wave?
- how to best attach them to staffs (would the striped portion remain or not)?

Any help is welcome.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/12/09/209.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 23, 2021, 09:03:35 am

Absolutely essential in all good toolkits! Kindly donated by my GF, it's great for those fine sanding tasks.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/210.jpg)

This was the method taken with the flag:

- Masked up the material leaving 1mm showing all round
- Applied superglue to the unmasked area to seal it. This changes the colour slightly (becomes a shade lighter)
- The glue provides the rigidity to then cut the flag out from the surround
- Added a spot of glue at the end of each tab. Glued it to the staff at these points and let dry
- Wrapped the flag around the staff then glued to fix

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/211.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/212.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/213.jpg)


All rails have now been epoxied to the deck section.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/214.jpg)

The gaps in the rails received some Tamiya putty and were sanded into shape.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/215.jpg)

Another portion of the deck under the superstructure was removed to give better access to the battery later on.
Some combing will be applied here as a margin.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/216.jpg)

The lifebelts received a coat of orange, before getting masked to apply a coat of white.
Used small shaped strips of plastic to act as a clamp to affix them to the railings.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/217.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/219.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/03/23/220.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: davejo90 on March 23, 2021, 11:46:25 am
It's looking very good Phil.

Not sure but as far as the flag is concerned I think the 3 vertical lines are the part that you would wrap around the pole. I'm sure others will let us know  ;)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 06, 2021, 01:51:32 am
Hi All,
Hope everyone is keeping safe and well.
After a long and slow recovery from tendonitis finally the Banckert build is able to continue.

The balcony paint booth is working well, I wait for noisy buses to pass by when spraying as not to alarm our landlord.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/06/221.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/06/222.jpg)

Going to get a maintenance free prop shaft from Raboesch as there isn't likely the access into the hull for servicing later on. Since putting in the first large bulkhead, the hull doesn't marry up as well with the deck. Further edge shaping and a lot of care will be needed to make a watertight fit, especially at the mid-deck curves. For those tackling this kit its advised to leave a few extra mm of edge material until you're sure of the fitment between the hull and deck.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/06/223.jpg)

More updates to follow. Have a good weekend MBM.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: derekwarner on November 06, 2021, 02:26:42 am
Hi Phil.......that balcony paintbooth must be a bit of a challenge  %) , but progress is good  :-))


Those stern facing red & green navigation lights have me a bit tossed?........I didn't know such were permitted?


I am sure a seasoned Deck Officer will correct me here


Derek
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 06, 2021, 02:56:58 am
Hmmm, will have to chalk this one up as a rookie error. Thanks for pointing that out Derek. Google confirms the gaff hahahaha. Oh well no going back now as the epoxy went off about 6 months ago xD, noted for next time.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on November 06, 2021, 03:45:04 am
Perhaps Derek could post a pic. of one of his models some time instead of just picking faults in everyone elses.  They must be perfect examples as he is so well versed in all things marine related?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on November 06, 2021, 07:37:09 am
Iv’e not looked in for quite some time Phil and I’m glad I’ve caught up. Truly sterling work  8) 
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Circlip on November 06, 2021, 10:47:22 am
Looks like Phil took the comment as constructive rather than an insult, I'm inclined to agree with him. Good build Phil.


  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on November 06, 2021, 12:41:02 pm
Rear facing nav lights are not only permitted but essential on some tugs. They are only used when the tug is on the stern of the tow and being pulled backwards. They are then facing the correct way, obviously the normal nav lights are not used in this case. The Parat tug I have has basically 2 complete sets of nav lights including the mast lights.
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: chipchase on November 06, 2021, 04:25:13 pm
Rear facing nav lights are not only permitted but essential on some tugs. They are only used when the tug is on the stern of the tow and being pulled backwards. They are then facing the correct way, obviously the normal nav lights are not used in this case. The Parat tug I have has basically 2 complete sets of nav lights including the mast lights.
Jim



 :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: derekwarner on November 06, 2021, 11:20:06 pm
Thanks Jim, not suggesting you were the seasoned Deck Officer  :-X .....the Switzer Tugs moored in Kembla when used 4 x on a 100,000 tonner entering or departing port at nights with 1 x tug always used as a stern spring..so must [edit or may] have these stern facing Nav lights?

My comment was certainly not intended as a criticism, just a question and acknowledging someone would correct me O0


I too, have looked at the general Standards for ships Navigation lights.......I have not seen  :o  any references to the exception over the rule, however obviously they must be there...



Derek


PS...a note for Rich.....never fear, I am not a model ship builder and you could certainly be correct as my nautical knowledge could be written on the back of a 10 Penny stamp.....my hobby is Home Cooking of Australian native animals & witchety grubs :P
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 07, 2021, 08:24:32 am
Hi All,

Many thanks for the encouraging comments. It's great to be able to build again.
Cheers @JimG for the information on the navigation lights, very insightful and good to know.

Found the cause of the deck sitting 3mm back toward the stern. The deck mold was fouling on the mid section bulkhead. I can now recall another builder mentioning they needed to trim down the bulkhead.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/07/227.jpg)

A dremel was handy in removing the excess ply without stressing the ABS.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/07/228.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on November 07, 2021, 11:47:31 am
Thanks Jim, not suggesting you were the seasoned Deck Officer  :-X .....the Switzer Tugs moored in Kembla when used 4 x on a 100,000 tonner entering or departing port at nights with 1 x tug always used as a stern spring..so must [edit or may] have these stern facing Nav lights?

Derek
Derek I can make no claim to any professional experience at sea just what I have learned in over 40 years as a modeller. (My grandfather did sail on sailing coasters as I believe a ships carpenter.) I based my comment on information I had previously found when trying to find out why the Parat had two sets of nav lights. The Parat has no towing gear forward so if at the stern of a tow would have to be towed backwards.
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 08, 2021, 05:48:15 am
Oh she's a stunner @JimG!! Would you have any links to the build?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on November 08, 2021, 12:58:57 pm
Thanks Phil, I have no links or photos of the build as it was built at around 15 years ago before I joined Mayhem and I didn't keep any photo records of builds at the time.
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 13, 2021, 01:32:37 pm
Thanks for the reply @JimG. I took a closer look at the Parat kit, it looks like a complex build with a really interesting steering setup. Well above our experience level but again a brilliant result!

The moorings (terminology correction welcome) and the stair sections are now the last of the details included in the Banckert kit.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/13/231.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/13/232.jpg)


Early on when building the superstructure, the stairs (port and starboard) were also measured and cut for height and the fitment was snug. A nod to Billing Boats.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/13/228b.jpg)

With the layering up of paint and whatnot, the forward pair would no longer fit. Now each set of stairs has had 2mm of material removed and been rejoined. For each, two cuts were made and worked on evenly to prevent snapping any of the steps. It didn't matter too much if the cut wasn't super straight because flipping one cut halve over evens things out again.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/13/229.jpg)

A trip to the 100 yen shop (pound shop back home) saw us buying a 10 pack of travel size toothpaste for the tube caps. As well as having minty breath, the caps were the perfect size to cover the bow portholes from the inside making them watertight. The same has been done for the anchors and the winch chains into the deck.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/13/234.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/13/233.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/13/235.jpg)


The propshaft is on its way from CMB along with some other bits. Presently we are looking for a basic but decent transmitter (not the type with a wheel on the side), a 700~750KV brushless outrunner and an esc.

A while back I bought a tank mounted machine gun kit by Tamiya as it contained a load of mechanical looking parts. The fire extinguisher on the sleeper wall is actually part of the muzzle assembly. There will probably be more furniture added on deck once we know she isn't top heavy. Fingers crossed hahaha.

Thanks for reading =)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on November 21, 2021, 12:27:43 pm
Hi All,

Some progress shots of the build this week.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/236.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/252.jpg)


Having never made a bilge keel, it made sense to simplify things by affixing both sides together then work to make the overall shape symmetrical.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/240.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/241.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/242.jpg)

Here is the test effort (a better stand definitely needed and on the to do list)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/239.jpg)

The finished versions (below) are slightly shorter at 185mm.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/243.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/247.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/248.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/249.jpg)


We'll work on the rudder blades next while we still get the various electronic components together.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/246.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/244.jpg)


This small brass nut and bolt is for connecting the kort nozzle to the hull. It's the last functional part of the fittings kit left.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/245.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Martin (Admin) on November 21, 2021, 12:30:46 pm
 
Very Neat work!     :-))



 
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on December 15, 2021, 06:35:06 am
Thanks @martin : )

Finding today that images though uploaded to an album are not generating previews or Full BB codes.
The BB code can be manually edited (from older ones) to get the newer images to show in a post.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on December 15, 2021, 08:18:29 am
Hi MBM,

TOP GEAR fashion!
This week....
We put some holes in a hull !!!

An understandable necessity but from a newbie POV quite daunting XD

Pilot holes for twin rudders. The original kit part doesn't really settle in one spot but it is helpful in getting an approximate idea and for the spacing between holes. Noted that previous builders have produced their own sturdier rudder mounts.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/253.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/253.jpg)

Both holes still need opening up to 4mm for the collar fittings.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/254.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/254.jpg)

Above deck access

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/21/254b.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/254b.jpg)

The mock up is all held together by tape here. A couple of long brass sections have worked well in helping (our aging eyes) to align the components.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/255.jpg)

By design, the 85mm brass bar linking the kort with the hull requires a couple of bends so the profiles are met. Think we might need to buy a vice to do this. I guess a hammer might simply flatten it out... There is a small piece of ply expoxied inside the hull and 2 x 10mm brass nails (supplied) to affix the bar with. Will switch them out for brass screws.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/256.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/257.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/258.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/259.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/259b.jpg)

Would like to ask for guidance on the next part. Invested in one of these =P

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/260.jpg)

The instructions that came with it cover models 301-00 to 301-06, there is no mention of 301-22.
It isn't too clear either about how to correctly prep it for installation. Hoping these images help explain our stuck points:

1. There is a wide nut on the prop end with one side of it beveled.
- Would the beveled edge face the prop or the motor?
- Is this nut to be tightened up toward the motor or down to the prop?
- Is a second nut needed for the prop? (washer required?)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/261.jpg)

2. This widest section has movement and can be moved in the direction of the motor.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/262.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/263.jpg)

At which of these points (yellow, red, blue) should we expect there to be slight play and how much?

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/264.jpg)

Thanks in advance for any information to help.


The last towing guide has been attached

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/15/265.jpg)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on December 15, 2021, 12:25:39 pm
To answer your questions - the large nut is a locking nut and should be tightened hard against the propeller.  It stops the propeller unscrewing itself, so make sure it is properly tight! It might also be worthwhile to put a washer between the nut and the plastic bearing in the end of the tube.

The large piece on the inboard end is loose to allow you to make adjustments to the final length of the tube to fit your hull.  Once you are happy with the length, that piece should be epoxied into place so that it can't move.  It should be pushed as far onto the tube as it will go.  Once everything is in place, there should be just a perceptible movement of the shaft back and forth, but no more.  If you tighten everything up so there is no movement at all, you will probably get binding at some point.  Just ease the locking collar at the inboard end by 0.5mm or so to give a bit of freedom.

Hope that helps.  Nice work by the way!

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on December 16, 2021, 07:15:54 am
Huge thanks Greg!! Your information helped us a lot. Really appreciate it.

Left side = binding example | Right side = given 0.5mm of play

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/16/269.jpg)

The Raboesch shaft length is good as is (probably 4cm longer than the kit shaft) so we can have
the large piece inboard at its shortest position. We'd be epoxying it to the outer shaft within the yellow area, right?

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/16/267.jpg)

The kit prop has a brass internal thread (open at both ends), this allows the shaft to keep turning through into the cone section.
We will by a brass prop and assume the shaft won't do this and so would use less thread.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/16/268.jpg)

Is there a common case where a narrower nut may be required to lock down the prop? The reason to ask is the prop nut in the kit is around 70% thinner than the Raboesch supplied one.

Lastly, is it okay to completely remove the inner shaft when fitting the prop?
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on December 16, 2021, 07:26:01 am
The long nut at the prop end (nut F) is not threaded all the way through. The unthreaded part goes towards the prop tube and you screw it up fully, this ensures that no thread of the prop shaft is visible or inside the tube Delrin bushing.
There is no need for any other nuts you lock the prop against this one.
I recommend a drop of loctite.
The shaft free play is controlled by the locking collar at the drive end as Greg said.


You can remove the shaft from the rudder end yes never pull the threaded part through the drive end bearing. However I don't see a need to do that? just hold the nut F with a spanner and screw the propeller up to it.


If the thread is too long for the prop then shorten it to suit. You don't need a washer between the prop and the nut, this achieves nothing in fact possibly counter productive.
Great build  :-))


one of mine
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-DtnLn3j/0/X3/i-DtnLn3j-X3.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on December 19, 2021, 12:49:15 pm
Hi Andy,

Thanks very much for your help and for posting the pic to demonstrate the fit.

The long nut at the prop end (nut F) is not threaded all the way through. (Nice one for pointing this out) The unthreaded part goes towards the prop tube and you screw it up fully, this ensures that no thread of the prop shaft is visible or inside the tube Delrin bushing. There is no need for any other nuts you lock the prop against this one. I recommend a drop of loctite.

Roger this! Nut up full to the delrin bearing.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/19/271.jpg)


The shaft free play is controlled by the locking collar at the drive end as Greg said.


Part B is pushed down against the outer tube (Part A), there's a 0.5mm gap between B and the washer/collar.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/19/272.jpg)

The 0.5mm of play allows the inner shaft to go in and out that much at the prop end.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/19/273.jpg)

Should B be expoxied to A to prevent it from turning? Or is B supposed to turn?



You can remove the shaft from the rudder end yes never pull the threaded part through the drive end bearing. However I don't see a need to do that? just hold the nut F with a spanner and screw the propeller up to it.

We might be alright not to disassemble, the access to the nut might be blocked by the kort. We'll see later when everything is in place ; )

Again thanks in advance, we are nearly there with our understanding (hopefully).

Cheers!!
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on December 19, 2021, 12:55:32 pm
B is supplied loose so you can modify the length of the tube, it must be glued in place when you’re happy with the length otherwise water will leak into the hull.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on December 20, 2021, 01:19:56 pm
Cheers to both Andy and Greg for your valued guidance. Things make sense now, thank you.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on January 18, 2022, 07:45:41 am
Happy New Year Everyone!

Resolutions:
1. Finish boat
2. Finish boat
3. Lose middle-age rubber ring

More parts reached us in Tokyo from CMB. Our thanks to them!

@subculture and @taranis kindly shared suggestions/links early on in the build for the electronic components. The plan was to go with with:

- 40mm brass prop
- A 28mm to 35mm 700kv (6v) brushless outrunner (direct drive)
- Battery: 2s lipo/Life
- 30A Esc - like https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingr-tm-brushless-car-esc-30a-w-reverse.html (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingr-tm-brushless-car-esc-30a-w-reverse.html)

It’s no secret that a lot of places haven’t the stock these days. So far we’ve managed to gather together the following:

Roxxy 750kv C28-34-12 Brushless Motor

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/274.jpg)

Spektrum DXS Transmitter

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/279.jpg)

Spektrum AR410 Receiver

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/278.jpg)

Futaba Servo S9570SV (High Voltage)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/277.jpg)

Universal Joint 4mm - 3.2mm

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/276.jpg)

Roboesch Propeller 40mm 4 blade RH


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/275.jpg)


Request
- With these components, would a 30A unit like this (amazon Japan link) be good to go with?

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Mtroniks-Tio-marine30/dp/B00A3NF8PG/ref=sr_1_43?m=A3I90NWAJ6Z1EM&qid=1642491283&refinements=p_6%3AA3I90NWAJ6Z1EM&s=toys&sr=1-43 (https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Mtroniks-Tio-marine30/dp/B00A3NF8PG/ref=sr_1_43?m=A3I90NWAJ6Z1EM&qid=1642491283&refinements=p_6%3AA3I90NWAJ6Z1EM&s=toys&sr=1-43)

- What would be the recommendation regarding batteries in terms of brand, specs (mAh etc)?

As for the brushless motor, some things clicked better after examining it in hand. For those like ourselves who’ve never used/handled one, the outer bell (widest section) rotates and so does the central pin. The section with the wires remains stationary.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/280.jpg)

Bit puzzled TBH with this one...

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/281.jpg)



(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/282.jpg)

Perhaps none of the parts included are used and we need a small motor mount, that has a large enough center hole to allow the universal joint grub screw to reach the flat area.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/18/283.jpg)


Thanks in advance for any help.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on January 18, 2022, 08:02:09 am
Hi Phil I converted to waterproof speed controllers for cars and found them perfect for the job.
Mercantic Hoga Boulogne Etaples and Boothbay lobster boat all use one Riva Aquarama uses two

https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,66723.msg723418.html#msg723418 (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,66723.msg723418.html#msg723418)


Batteries
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,66723.msg723528.html#msg723528 (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,66723.msg723528.html#msg723528)

50mm propeller  3cm shorter  IMG_0704-1920.mp4 (https://photos.smugmug.com/Billing-Boats-Hoga-tug-708/i-wkGDHN4/0/89037f13/1920/IMG_0704-1920.mp4)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on January 18, 2022, 12:58:43 pm
The motor is of course designed for electric flight where the propellor fits onto the threaded adaptor. If you want to use the coupling you have then you can either open out the hole in the motor mount to fit or cut the individual cross sections from the center. ( or get another coupling which will fit the threaded end) They only need one screw each to fit to  the motor so you can have a bigger gap in the center. Once screwed to the mount in the boat the arms will be rigid. These motors are often fitted to the nose of models by mounting the motor directly to the front bulkhead with a hole in the center of the bulkhead  to allow the shaft through and they use a collet type adaptor onto the shaft to get a threaded section to mount the propellor.
Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on January 18, 2022, 04:41:39 pm
I use these and mount them so I don't need a clackety clack UJ. Solid coupling is better.
https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/360-400-Size-Motor-Mount-70201.html (https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/360-400-Size-Motor-Mount-70201.html)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9sHpHH5/0/L/i-9sHpHH5-L.jpg)



(https://photos.smugmug.com/Billing-Boats-Nr-424-Mercantic/i-NB9HbKq/0/9dd08b6f/XL/33D35929-44D9-4A5E-AD69-7D485572CB8F-XL.jpg)


(https://photos.smugmug.com/Amati-Riva-Aquarama/i-Ksr5VHm/0/b3453b6e/X3/6C0E2979-A93F-47F7-A485-57037DD8D62D-X3.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: JimG on January 18, 2022, 06:57:23 pm
As an alternative to mounting the motor as it comes, the shaft on an outrunner is normally held into the endbell by grubscrews allowing bent shafts to be replaced. The circlip on the static end is there to take the endload when used with an aircraft propeller. You can remove the circlip allowing you to remove the rotating bell than remove the shaft and fit it in reverse so that the end with the section ground away comes from the front of the motor not the back, this would allow the coupling to fit easily. There is no need for the circlip as the end loads are take by the shaft not the motor and the magnets hold the rotating bell in place normally, just make sure the shaft is fully through the rear bearing.

Jim
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on January 19, 2022, 01:18:23 pm
Thanks so much Andy! Really appreciate you sharing the photos to demonstrate along and with the movie clip. If our Banckert goes half as well as your vessel, we'll be well chuffed. Many thanks to you Jim too for sharing your knowledge of brushless motor construction and the mounting options. I'll have a play and see what might work best for our setup.

Again, each time it's with thanks to you and the MBM members who help us to progress. We 100% appreciate it!!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on January 21, 2022, 09:39:15 am
This provided a good introductory read on lipos: https://rogershobbycenter.com/lipoguide 
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on January 27, 2022, 10:20:03 am
A few more orders have arrived this week.

We’ve gone for the same Quicrun esc as recommended by Andy, see superb build pics (above).

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/27/284.jpg)

connectors

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/27/285.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/27/287.jpg)

Having initially been more alarmed than I’d like to admit about Lipo batteries in general, I think I’m at a point now where I feel okay (more-or-less) about having them in our home. The takeaways (really open for correction here) from various Youtube and Google searches are:

For a 2S Lipo | 7.4V | 80C | 5200mAh | 38.48Wh

- balance charge at 1C or less (up to 5.2A) (believe our selected charger has a max of 5.0A)
- charge on the same day as we intend to sail
- don’t let the charge go below 3.2V per cell
- don’t store at full charge
- a storage charge can maintain the battery around 6 months
- if any swelling or cracks appear cease usage
- place in 10L of salt water for 14 days before disposal

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/27/286.jpg)

An initial battery check gave these values:

3.839V and 3.794V

How should we interpret this reading? Bad, fair, good for example.

A zip-up Lipo bag is on order, one of those with a hole in the side for charging.
Is it worth to keep an ABC or dry chemical fire extinguisher at home? I think I know what my preference is here :P , interested to hear about recommended precautions.

We'd be appreciative of your thoughts and advice.
Cheers!!
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on January 31, 2022, 08:38:51 am
Hi MBM,

A couple more pics of progress this week.
On the ESC, switched the mini Tamiya connector for an XT60. 

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/287.jpg)

The electronics were all connected for the first time. We did get our DXS transmitter to put the
motor into reverse, but subsequent playing with the ESC has lost it again. A programming card is on the way so we'll keep tinkering. (Update: now sorted)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/288.jpg)

The 40mm propeller went in great with a few mm to spare inside the kort. There is a small bolt also inside at 12 o’clock that needs to be accounted for.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/289.jpg)

4mm holes were made for the rudder tubes.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/291.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/290.jpg)

Before beginning our Banckert, we especially tried to find clear shots of the this area. These pics may be useful to other builders, (we're noobs: use at own peril haha)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/294.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/292.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/01/31/293.jpg)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on February 08, 2022, 01:50:51 pm
Some more pics from the work completed last week.
Put together a battery box for the 2S lipo, it contains a shallow track to the let the battery lie flat. By design the battery itself has a slight hexagonal cross-section.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/295.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/296.jpg)

The kit's rudder mount has been epoxied in. Some reinforcement will be added later to make it more robust.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/297.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/298.jpg)

Question: When the time arrives to fill the collars with grease, is there a recommended way for installation (or nuggets of advice) that may help with this?

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/299.jpg)

The propshaft ..... a lot of measuring, pondering, guessing took place for the install XD. It eventually gave way to "Oh... let's just have a crack and see what happens..." Anyhow, I think it went well for a first go.

All along we were thinking the outer tube would sit flat on the supplied piece of ply giving us the 'required' angle. Maybe it should and it was our installation that is off hahaha. It didn't sit flat (red arrow). This angle is dependent on the part outside of the hull that the tube passes down to the kort.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/300.jpg)

A small wedge (left) was used to make a little alignment correction

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/301.jpg)

a second was added on the right to set it in place.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/302.jpg)

Early on I made a right pigs ear of the kit piece here when trying to fit the propshaft provided by Billings. It was saved and helped to form a template for a replacement part. I went with a flat top edge for an option as other builders have mounted the rudder servo in this area. We'll see how it goes.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/303.jpg)

The replacement has been epoxied in

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/304.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/305.jpg)

The Raboesch propshaft we got is around 180mm in length and it almost marries up exactly with motor. The mount needs raising a few mil, so looking at the best way to do that. Wood might split at the required thickness if we screw through to the base board. Maybe we can look to raise the base a fraction instead. That's for another day.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/08/306.jpg)

Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Stan on February 09, 2022, 09:38:38 am
Hi Phil two models seen at Kirklees MBC. The one on the  wall is the model that suffered damage after been dropped.


Stan. :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on February 10, 2022, 12:52:44 pm
Thank you Stan for reaching out with the advice to reinforce the bow. We're seeing what we can get a hold of here in Japan that will be suitable. Great to see these excellent builds on the water. Cheers for posting!!


Phil



Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on February 20, 2022, 07:46:38 am
Hi All,

Our boat got its first ever go in the testing tank this week. Milestone! Very happy to say there was no sign of ingress. Beforehand the stern received a pour of epoxy to dam everything up. The propshaft section containing the delrin bushing was sealed too (not seen in this photo).

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/307.jpg)

Thanks again Stan for your kind advice about shoring up the bow. Locally, we could find a great 2-part kit with fiberglass tissue included. It's been put in and with only 3 layers makes a massive difference to the rigidity.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/308.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/308b.jpg)

Work resumed on the rudders and their shaping.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/309.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/310.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/310b.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/310c.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/311.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/312.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/313.jpg)

A first try with the hull needed about 2.4 Kgs (5.3 lbs) of tomato and bean ballast to get it down to the waterline. The deck with everything on (in our case with extra combing etc) is about 630g (1.4 lbs).

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/316.jpg)

Our local store for DIY supplies https://www.tokyu-hands.co.jp/en/ (https://www.tokyu-hands.co.jp/en/) has a good selection of precut metals. We went for 2kgs of various pieces of brass.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/317.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/317b.jpg)

Many permutations were given a go, having the flat plates down low with some smaller hexes either side works well.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/317c.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/17/331.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/332.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/317c.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/317c.jpg)

The wider hexes are effective at reducing list. The base board had sections removed to get this weight lower. The edge of the board also keeps them lined up.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/20/333.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/317d.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/317d.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/331.jpg)
The top edge of masking tape represents the bottom of the waterline (top: faint pencil line). The stern looks already to be at a good depth (to our untrained eyes)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/323.jpg)

Bow level: waterline parallel with the surface (feels too low)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/324.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/328.jpg)

Bow raised (below): A small amount of ballast removed (this looks better to us)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/321.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/16/322.jpg)

None of the ballast has been fitted at this stage, so changes and tweaks are possible. With the deck affixed the stability seems decent, when rolling the boat to port or starboard, we can feel the model resisting and wanting to quickly self right. 

Thanks,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: ballastanksian on February 22, 2022, 09:20:35 pm
Firstly, lovely looking build! I had dropped out of following but then saw the last few pages of work and am impressed!!


Secondly, like the US you have a wonderful selection of materials in your DIY shops. Our equivalent is a rack of vastly expensive lengths of mild steel and aluminium shapes but no metals you could machine. Imagine being a model engineer and being able to go to B&Q or Wickes and buy materials to build a steam engine!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on February 28, 2022, 09:27:08 am
Thanks very much Ian. We are quite spoilt for choice in Tokyo really about everything. Although we’ve still not located a single model shop carrying boats in the entire city. Maybe there’s a business idea for us.

Here are some updates from what’s gone on this week. For the longest time in our minds the servo was going to sit alongside the propshaft.  The thing putting us off was when trying to build up the base to get the servo horn at a similar height to the tiller's, it simply wasn't working out. Here is how it ended up.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/340.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/341.jpg)

The little brass nuts for the twin rudders sit perfectly in the servo horns. Dunno if this is a thing or if we got lucky here.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/342.jpg)

My Dad had a sweet little idea to use another horn to connect both sides up. Sat on washers the whole assembly swings smoothly. The bolts will get trimmed down during the final install.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/343.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/344.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/346.jpg)

The hull received a coat of primer then Mr. Hobby Surfacer 1200. That was lightly gone over with some wet and dry which gave a good base. The 3mm waterline was sprayed first in white, then a coat of black above that. Red next.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/347.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/348.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/349.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/28/350.jpg)

The finish line is coming into sight!
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 02, 2022, 09:18:10 am
The last couple of shots of the hull getting finished off. The spray paint we've been using is an oil-based silicon lacquer by a brand called Alesco. I used to be a signmaker in a former life and so have painted a fair bit, the finish straight from the cans is remarkable.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/02/351.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/02/352.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/02/353.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/02/billing-boats-banckert-516.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Martin (Admin) on March 02, 2022, 11:37:04 am

Looks Great!   :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Geoff on March 02, 2022, 12:19:21 pm
I think you have made a really fine job of this model and should be congratulated. All very neat and crisp!


Cheers


Geoff
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 10, 2022, 09:24:09 am
Cheers Martin and Geoff!!

The last of the painting is now done. We’d been waiting for a milder day to apply urethane clear coats to the deck and hull. It’s now thanks and goodbye to the makeshift balcony paint-booth. Our landlord can stop stressing out finally xD

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/10/354.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/10/355.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/10/356.jpg)

Still not sure how to refer to the part that the propshaft runs though externally. During assembly it was a concern on how to make it a watertight join, as when in place (for us), the piece created a sizeable cavity (yellow), (red) shows the hull’s position. We poked some epoxy into the gaps, but I wouldn’t have bet my last rolo that the seal was good enough! The secondary issue being not to have any epoxy run into the tube and setting.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/10/357.jpg)

Anyhow with a little more cautious filling, several coats of primer, undercoat, the main colours and now the urethane, everything ‘looks’ to be sealed up very well. Once the fitting of the kort, prop and rudders is completed, we’ll leave the hull in the bath overnight and see how it goes.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/10/358.jpg)

Thanks!
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 14, 2022, 12:38:04 pm
We've had another productive few days with the boat. The brass pieces (ballast) had all of their sharp corners filed off and were wrapped in gaffer tape for grip. Some are now held in place with small wooden blocks. These areas won't be easily accessible once the deck is attached.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/359.jpg)

These wooden legs help give another fixing point to the floor.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/360.jpg)

I'd read previously that the rudder, prop and kort are "fiddly" to get installed. Not going to knock the kit here, will put it down to having little experience but we found it a challenge. With a view to help future builders, this is what eventually worked for us.

- Put the prop and nut onto the shaft.
- Insert the propshaft but not all the way, there is a flat-head bolt at the 12 o'clock position inside the kort. The bolt is obscured by the propshaft but you can get enough purchase on it with the angle available. Go easy as it is soft brass, make sure you have a screwdriver head that fits well.
- Place the kort loose over the prop and get a few turns of the bolt done so it catches.
- Twist the kort as in the photo to one side, this should allow for the rudders to be inserted vertically. The bolt will still be accessible, screw it in full and tighten down the nut inside the hull.
- Twist the kort into position.
- Seat the rudders into the pre-drilled holes.
- Open the cans of Guinness that have been chilling in the fridge.
- Administer pats on the back to all involved.

I'd say we got lucky with the rudders because they could still be wiggled around enough after the kort was fully in place. This is due to 2 things that I can see. 1.) The distance the rudder collars extend down out through the hull (4mm) and 2.) the distance the brass rods extend out through the base of the rudders (3mm) before they narrow.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/361.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/362.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/363.jpg)

The servo linkage needed another go as the original was fouling ever so slightly causing the servo to complain.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/364.jpg)

The bolts used to connect the servo horns didn't need trimming, there is enough room in the stern under the cover plate.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/364a.jpg)

These rails stop the last of the flex in the ABS.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/365.jpg)

Lastly it got another dip with all of the ballast, electronics and batteries aboard. Happy Days!

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/367.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/368.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/370.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/371.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/03/14/369.jpg)

Next up is a go at the lake, test things out then permanently fit the deck and stern ballast.

Cheers!
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: dave parker on March 20, 2022, 07:49:04 pm
Phill22


I have just read this log from beginning to end and loved it, such a great job.


I am looking to return to the hobby after a hiatus, having only really loitered in the back ground for years, but this time I may give it a real go and actually start a build of my own.


Your build has helped immensely


Great job  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on March 23, 2022, 10:15:52 am
Appreciate the comment! Thanks Dave!

If you are doing a Banckert let me know if you have any questions I may help with. Be sure to post some build pics when you get started.

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 09, 2022, 02:18:43 am
Hi MBM,

The first real 'sea trial' went very well at our local park this week. After 3 years building her, we certainly felt apprehensive on how things would go. Another shout-out to @Subculture for your advice early on regarding suitable brushless electrics, her performance was spot on. And to @Taranis, @SailorGreg and @JimG for your brilliant guidance on putting the parts together. The power is there when you want it but in the main, it's an effortless glide. Exactly what we were after!

@SteveH, the handling characteristics as you described with your build, we see with ours. Reverse is more like a brake and not something that would get the model out of an awkward situation quickly. As you said: "The two rudders almost close onto each other so it is like pushing a flat plate through the water." During their fitting, this was the main point we kept in mind. Ended up making our own wider rudder blades, and for installation, set them up so they maintained a decent gap at full turn. Thank you again for this helpful info. The bow goes down a touch for us too at speed, but nothing too concerning like you mentioned. I might remove some of the ballast to counter this. 

Like many Tokyoites we don't have a car (a parking space alone in the city can run from 200 to 1000+ quid per month), so how to transport the boat around has expended a lot of grey matter 'over these years'. Fate stepped in last week, guiding us to this tool bag that could be the answer. RESULT!!!

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/09/372.jpg)

Put together a case for the main structure.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/09/373.jpg)

Home time.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/09/374.jpg)

There was no water ingress even with the deck and hull still in two pieces. Bulldog clips and masking tape have now firmly made it onto our Christmas card list!

On inspection, there has been some rough scoring going on between the collar and the washer. During testing on the lake, there was about 0.5mm gap between them. See fine metal dust on the masking tape.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/09/375.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/09/376.jpg)

No grease has been applied anywhere as the instructions for the maintenance-free shaft, say not to put anything on it. Is the washer actually required if the shaft is being held by 2 grub screws (collar and UJ)? We're concerned that some of this fine material could make its way past the delrin bushing and into the tube. Would be grateful for your recommendations.

Thank you in advance.
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 13, 2022, 04:40:41 am
Nice one Andy @taranis - I believe I can see in one of the photos you shared that you also do not have a washer in the setup.
We took it away and had another test on the water yesterday. Everything went well. : )
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on April 13, 2022, 09:59:07 pm
Hi Phil 22,


I am not convinced by the wooden decks but the execution of everything else is excellent and ignore me on decks!


Ref. wear on prop-shaft.  It is common to incorporate a washer from brass or nylon, If you run a U/J, the collar is superfluous if the U/J etc. can't be brought up to the end of the shaft.  But I have only one experience with these "maintenance free" shafts a few years ago and it was binding so tight even when water lubricated it went back and never bothered with another since when a normal one will do.


Ref. transport, I was kind of in the same scenario when I was working in France a couple of years ago.  Before I sailed any I managed to bring them all back through airport luggage undamaged (careful packing!).  I also remember a day from my youth on a holiday in Cromer in early 80's where my dad bought me a star yacht.  We spent every evening we could at the pond.  One night I'm sure a guy turned up on a motorbike with his girlfriend riding pillion:  He (she) had a ferry as wide as the bike was long maybe 5 or 6 feet across her knees and they he sailed it round and round.  I think we left before they did or something like that.


Rich
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 15, 2022, 01:03:04 pm
Hi Rich,

Thanks for the kind words and for the reply about the setup. I think whenever the next build gets started, we'll go with a solid UJ as recommended by Andy @taranis. For us bringing the UJ and motor closer to the prop-end introduces a minor waggle. The collar I suppose could act as a secondary stop, should the UJ grub screw ever come loose but aside from this, agreed it isn't required. Your story about the 2 folks and a ferry on a bike sounds a sight :D

This week during our second visit to the lake, we tried out different ballast arrangements in a few areas. The 9V battery for the navigation lights is inside the structure on the port side and needed to be countered. The final trim was done back in the test tank.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/15/380.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/15/379.jpg)

When moving the bow lowers a touch so it's up at idle.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/15/381.jpg)

The deck has now been permanently fixed to the hull, this went better than we thought. The epoxy bead was kept more inboard leaving the deck to help spread it outwards when lowered into position. We've left more ABS edge material I guess than required, so the 'C-profile' rubber trim supplied doesn't fit our build so well, no fault of Billing Boats. A deeper profile trim will work better.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/15/382.jpg)

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 16, 2022, 10:03:48 am
Hi MBM,

She's finished!! (^^)b (^^)b

The sense of achievement we have from completing this almost 3 year project is brilliant! We're now looking forward to many days out at the lake with the boat (Shakujii Park in Tokyo).

We'd like to express our sincere appreciation to the fine members of this wonderful forum.

And a special thanks to:

@taranis, @Subculture, @SailorGreg, @Martin [Admin], @malcolmfrary, @JimG, @RST, @SteveH, @canabus, @Ralph, @tica, @Stan, @merseyferry, @derekwarner, @Mark T, @ballastanksian, @thething84, @Dave_S., @dougal99, @Dave, @Circlip, @Geoff, @dave parker

for sharing your experience, helpful guidance and encouragement along the way.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/16/Billing-Boats-Banckert-516---Port-side.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/16/Billing-Boats-Banckert-516---Stern.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/16/Billing-Boats-Banckert-516---Bow.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/16/Billing-Boats-Banckert-516---Starboard-side.jpg)

We'll get around to posting a clip of her running if you'd like to see her on the water. Also, maybe it'll help future builders to know what type of performance can be expected from the components used.

Thank you again MBM!!
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Dave_S. on April 16, 2022, 07:24:22 pm
You've made a great job of that, definitely a model to be proud of.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: hama on April 17, 2022, 12:38:35 pm
You've done a fantastic job!! For a first, amazing. Banckert was one of my first builds as a kid, seeing yours make me want to build another one.
Thanks for sharing!
Hama
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Tworrs on April 18, 2022, 02:02:23 am
Congratulations on completing this lovely model, it really does look amazing.
Garry
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SailorGreg on April 18, 2022, 04:50:25 pm
Wow! As a first build that is amazing.  Well done.  :-)) :-)) :-))
What's next?  ;)

Greg
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on April 24, 2022, 07:12:45 am
Thanks so much @Dave_S., @hama, @Tworrs and @SailorGreg.

That's a good question Greg!! We've no immediate plans for the next one, but I did pick up a VW Micro-bus 23 window this weekend to be going on with hahaha. I think for now, we'll take the boat out and enjoy it through the summer. Thoughts though, transporting everything back and forth on foot, the next one should be shorter than the Banckert (65cm). Something still with a preformed hull and a single prop would be good.

Here are a couple of clips (hosted on vimeo.com) showing her performance. The rowing boats pack up at 4pm so we had the lake to ourselves with the ducks.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/24/382a.jpg)

Manuevering
https://vimeo.com/702484250 (https://vimeo.com/702484250)

Speed
https://vimeo.com/702483042 (https://vimeo.com/702483042)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/24/384.jpg)

Lipo Battery
Aside from spot checks on the battery level, motor temp etc, the 5200mAh 2S battery went from 4.2V per cell to 3.8V in about 2 hours.

Control
The lake is easily longer than 500m and we could operate the boat with no issues as far as our eyes could safely see.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/24/383.jpg)

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: SteamboatPhil on April 24, 2022, 05:53:25 pm
Excellent  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: RST on April 29, 2022, 08:08:13 pm
Very nicely done!  Looks a good sailing venue also.


Richard
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on May 02, 2022, 09:02:19 am
Many thanks @SteamboatPhil and @RST

Indeed Richard! It's great to have such an accessible location to sail so close to home.
This bank (below pic) is where the local model boat club gathers on the weekends. I need to brush up my Japanese.

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/02/19838.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/02/19837.jpg)

(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/02/19836.jpg)
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Tworrs on May 02, 2022, 09:59:02 am
Wow Phil that certainly is a lovely venue, so peaceful looking.
Garry
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Mark T on May 02, 2022, 04:21:21 pm
Just catching up on your build and what a fantastic job you have done.  That is one very nicely built Banckert  :-))
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 27, 2022, 01:01:13 pm
Wow! As a first build that is amazing.  Well done.  :-)) :-)) :-))
What's next?  ;)

Greg

Hey Greg - there is a Billings Zwarte Zee now on order from CMB  {-)

Nice one @Tworrs and @Mark T.
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Taranis on August 27, 2022, 01:13:51 pm
“Our first build”
Who would ever believe that from the finished product.
Looking forwards to your second blog 😎
Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Phil22 on August 27, 2022, 01:53:04 pm
Cheers Andy! You were one of the very kind folks instrumental in getting us over the line = )

New build diary to follow soon : )

Title: Re: Our First Build - Billings Banckert 516
Post by: Mark T on August 28, 2022, 03:31:37 pm
“Our first build”
Who would ever believe that from the finished product.
Looking forwards to your second blog 😎


Spot on!!!  I'm looking forward to the second build too!