Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Other Technical Questions... => Topic started by: lankyandy on August 28, 2019, 11:28:44 PM

Title: Vice
Post by: lankyandy on August 28, 2019, 11:28:44 PM
ant advice on a vice for general work. I have looked at the proxxon one and a screwfix one.
https://www.axminster.co.uk/proxxon-fmz-precision-vice-702052 (https://www.axminster.co.uk/proxxon-fmz-precision-vice-702052)
https://www.screwfix.com/p/gr65-portable-vice-2-60mm/620fg (https://www.screwfix.com/p/gr65-portable-vice-2-60mm/620fg)


Opinions appreciated in what I should be looking for or recommendations
Thanks
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: david48 on August 29, 2019, 12:33:40 AM

Go for the Proxon , it is the best made of the two ,the  jaws look  better finished of,  to me it looks a more engineered manufacturer.
David
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on August 29, 2019, 02:44:35 AM
The Proxxon is the better of these two. It has soft jaws, which the other does not appear to have. However it is almost twice the price.
There are other vices that are the same design out there.


I have the Silverline, which I got from Stermat, and it does me, although I am not a heavy user.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-VC17-Pivoting-Multi-Angle-Capacity/dp/B000LFTOHY/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=portable+vice&qid=1567042540&s=gateway&sr=8-8 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-VC17-Pivoting-Multi-Angle-Capacity/dp/B000LFTOHY/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=portable+vice&qid=1567042540&s=gateway&sr=8-8)


This Stanley looks a lot more solid, and the jaws open a little bit wider to 76mm.
[size=78%]https://www.amazon.co.uk/STANLEY-MAXSTEEL-Multi-Angle-Vice/dp/B001HBS0I0/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=portable+vice&qid=1567042405&s=gateway&sr=8-5 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/STANLEY-MAXSTEEL-Multi-Angle-Vice/dp/B001HBS0I0/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=portable+vice&qid=1567042405&s=gateway&sr=8-5)[/size]


Things to look for, the jaws should be soft. I am not sure that the GR65 has soft jaws.
Also consider that small pieces, especially wood and brass rod/sheet, will not have large forces exerted on them. Personally I think that this is one tool where you could save a bit of money for another tool or materials, if cost is a consideration.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: derekwarner on August 29, 2019, 05:52:52 AM
From a simple engineering point, I do not quite understand the benefit of a small workshop vice with rubber or plastic  ...soft jaws  >>:-( 


Are vices not to hold materials rigidly?.......

As an alternate to maintaining small tube diameters without squashing during solder processes is to drill holes into the closed jaws so as to provide accurate support ....during any tube work


This inexpensive 3" bench vice has been drilled for both 1/8" and 5/32" OD tubes and so the jaws are not affected by the heat from a small gas torch...the splattering of soldering flux on the metal vice jaws/body is cosmetic only


Sheet plastic inserts can be used if a machined finished surface needs protection when clamped in the vice


I also use a small 2", aluminium bodied & soft jawed vice for smaller work, Pin Vices can also be a tremendous aid when constructing small diameter tube work


Derek
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on August 29, 2019, 06:41:02 AM
I can only talk about my experience working with wood and some plastics.
It is not necessary, and some times not possible, for things to be tightened 'rigid'.
Wood and some plastics are soft materials that mark easily. Small wooden pieces can get crushed, perhaps where rubber jaws are more useful.


I strongly agree that pin vices and other handheld clamps are indeed very useful for working on small parts. I have used them for shaping and drilling hardwood bowsies and blocks for rigging.

One thing I have learned, in my limited experience, is that if manufacturers make things a certain way (e.g. soft jaws) there is usually a good reason for it.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: john44 on August 29, 2019, 10:02:04 AM
Has the vice got to be the clamp on type. Those shown are for light use only.
If you can go for a 4" fixed engineering type. Swivel lock base.
You can make your own removable soft jaws
I have used mine for 30 years and would not be without that type of vice


John
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on August 29, 2019, 10:45:19 AM
lidls generally at some point do a selection of vices, I have several, they are generally clamp on with swivel base types, mind you I have all sorts of other vices, ranging from small 1" jaw ones right up to 2 or 3 large engineering vices in the 6-8" range, for model making I generally use a pair of 2" swivel base vices, which between them can firmly hold a hull by the keel.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on August 29, 2019, 10:46:14 AM
ps I generally fold some sheet brass or aluminium to make jaw protectors for soft / markable materials
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: DaveM on August 29, 2019, 10:50:12 AM
I feel I should point iout that the Stanley Maxsteel vice has removable rubber jaws. These come off in a jiffy if required. There's also a couple of vee grooves (horizontal and vertical) in the metal jaws to hold wire, tube etc. When it was new the vice needed a little working and some light oil to free up the movement, but I can recommend it from personal experience. For really heavy-duty metal work there is no substitute for a bench-mounted vice with hardened steel jaws.

DaveM
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: mrlownotes on August 29, 2019, 11:07:00 AM
I've used the proxxon swivelley vice for a couple of years now.It has become my go-to vice, albeit for multiple lightweight tasks, soldering, sawing, filing. The recent use was holding 4mm stainless propshafts firmly in the rubber jaws to avoid any damage whilst being shortened.The swivel ball enables holding small stuff at any angle.The rubber jaws are quickly removed, if necessary. There is a horizontal channel cut inside the jaws to hold rod/tube etc.

However, there is one drawback. For other than very lightweight use I need to use an extension on the ball/socket screwbar to tighten it enough to ensure it holds firm. The ball/socket will move under heavy loading, e.g. hack saw or heavy filing.
Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be without it now, especially for holding connectors whilst soldering and tubes/rods whilst cutting.
As for heavy work it wouldn't be suitable at all.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: lankyandy on August 29, 2019, 11:26:37 AM
So itís seems the proxxon and a good old bench mounted lump of a vice are needed. Thanks for the help everyone.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on August 29, 2019, 11:46:56 AM
Variation on the theme of the bench mounted lump.
Mount it to a board (bolted from the back), then you can clamp it to the bench when you want it, and put it away when you don't. That way you have a clear run of the bench.
This 4 1/2" Stanley will do a lot, but you can go bigger. NB, this one has an anvil section at the back which has come in handy a couple of times. It also has a swivel mount, which also means it can fit inside the outline of the base board for storage, and it has pipe jaws below the main jaws.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: lankyandy on August 29, 2019, 12:05:01 PM
Thatís a great idea. As you say gives a clear bench when needed. I have my job for this evening mounting my previous vice on that. Thank you
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on August 29, 2019, 12:18:44 PM
Glad to be of help  :-))  If you don't have a board thick enough to countersink the head of the bolt on the underside, glue 2 layers of 3/4" plywood together.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on August 29, 2019, 12:20:12 PM
you might want to make sure that at least one way round the vice fixed jaw lines up with the edge of the block, that way you can hold longer pieces in vertically, past the edge of the bench.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on August 29, 2019, 12:21:18 PM
Good thinking Grendel  :-))
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on August 29, 2019, 12:33:10 PM
when I mount any vice I always try and line the jaw up with the edge of the bench, thus on my workbench I can fit things between one or move cvices, sometimes holding one end in one vice and the other in for example the woodwork vice.
currently I have more vices than I have bench to mount them on, one of my 3 large engineers vices is mounted on the metal clad section of bench (for welding etc) one is stored under the pillar drill table and the third is sitting on the floor. my workshop is in half of my conservatory, and I am hoping to clear space in the other half to expand my work benches
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on August 29, 2019, 12:44:22 PM
Like my granny used to say, 'We all have our vices. Some more than others'.  :-X
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: barriew on August 29, 2019, 01:38:53 PM
However, there is one drawback. For other than very lightweight use I need to use an extension on the ball/socket screwbar to tighten it enough to ensure it holds firm. The ball/socket will move under heavy loading, e.g. hack saw or heavy filing.


Have to agree - I thought it was me not eating enough Weetabix {-) %% {-) %%


Barrie
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: lankyandy on August 29, 2019, 02:02:23 PM
Yes I realised with the block to mount at the edge for the longer jobs but thanks for the reminder. Itís the kind of thing you easily forget when I get home tonight and rush the job!!
Thanks again
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tizdaz on September 01, 2019, 11:05:11 PM
From a simple engineering point, I do not quite understand the benefit of a small workshop vice with rubber or plastic  ...soft jaws  >>:-( 

Because some materials that you want to clamp have a "soft" texture, the clamp jaws on most vices have a serrated jaw type so would mark the material being clamped, this is where hard rubber covers for the jaws come in handy ;)
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 02, 2019, 12:00:32 PM
OOoo a subject I have recently been thinking about, the first vice I have is an old one which allows the jaws to be rotated along the axis, it used to be a suction cup for mounting on a surface but thats failed over time, its light enough to hold the material whilst you handle the vice against your body and file or trim the piece if need be, and solid enough on the bench to clamp something, when I get the chance I will put a photo up.


The second is similar to those at the start of this thread (the first one), in fact most of these are the same vice just re-branded / painted.


Here the question - most of the vices on offer nowadays appear to be the same manufacturer, just re-branded for different companies, so whose brand would you recommend for a sturdy 6" vice, that does not necessarily have to have a swivel base (where most appear to be the re-branded type), stanley's quality seems to have diminished over the years, and the most desired feature I have is that the mechanism is reliable and sturdy enough. The removing the vice idea is a great idea, but having it pinned down as well rather than just clamped would be a good idea, so holes in the deck that match the board with removable bolts that dont have to be tight, using the bolts to prevent the vice from spinning.

I had the idea, taken from an engineering college that my son attended to have a cut out in the deck and have the vice be pivoted to flip under the deck like a singer sewing machine desk from times of old - except the college had pc's doing it in the classroom.
[size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on September 02, 2019, 01:36:14 PM
at school our drawing boards in technical drawing were mounted like this, so that the room could be turned back into a standard classroom with flat desks if needed.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on September 02, 2019, 04:21:16 PM


I had the idea, taken from an engineering college that my son attended to have a cut out in the deck and have the vice be pivoted to flip under the deck like a singer sewing machine desk from times of old - except the college had pc's doing it in the classroom.

   




I would be worried that the pivot pin or anti-flip mechanism would not be strong enough, if you are going to use more force than clamps could hold. I have seen flip tables used for machine tools, but then the force is not between the machine and the base.

If you do think you will have a lot of turning forces, an alternative would be to drill thorough the bench and mount 'T' nuts on the underside. Have thick mounting boards (for your tools) with corresponding holes cut in them so that this/these board(s) can be bolted directly to the bench using the 'T' nuts.
There is a video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv198iunlLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv198iunlLg)
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: RST on September 02, 2019, 04:33:28 PM
Surely the whole point of a vice is that it's firmly fixed? Using cramps to hold a vice down seems a little counter intuitive. But if it works for you. If you can position it where you can get underside I'd personally just bolt it with wing nuts.  Seems as much hassle. I'd be worried about T nuts working loose. But maybe not. 99 ways to skin a cat as they say. And yes a set of soft covers for the jaws is entirely sensible for softer materials. Be it rubber, or you can use wood or cut from uPVC or nylon like chopping boards if you can fix it ok. If you're cutting chunky ferrous metal stock you would remove them.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on September 02, 2019, 04:51:15 PM
It all depends on what you are going to do with the vice really. If I was going to be bending metal bar, I would definitely have the vice fixed solidly to a strong heavy, possibly even fixed, base. However, I only use my Stanley bench top vice for holding pieces of metal whilst cutting them, and so clamps are more than enough for that. I have woodworking vices built into my bench, I have the swivel type mini vice shown in the original post, and I also have a number of hand held vices. Horses for courses really.

If my hobby included more metal work and engineering I would certainly have a large vice permanently fixed to an engineering bench.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: Mark T on September 02, 2019, 07:13:42 PM
Iíve been using this for a few years now


https://www.screwfix.com/p/stanley-hobby-vice-3-75mm-/8757J?tc=VT2&ds_kid=92700046069883220&gclsrc=aw.ds&ds_rl=1241687&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1244066&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrYylv96y5AIVC7DtCh3WqwPIEAQYASABEgImCPD_BwE[/font]

Best small vice Iíve ever owned[/font]
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on September 02, 2019, 07:36:48 PM
i now have to admit i must be a vice aholic, i thought i will just take some pictures. oops just how many have i got, well 3 big engineering vices in the 6" range one solidly mounted and two spare, at least 4 small ones on the kitchen table workbench, then in the workshop a few more including 2 woodworking, some more small ones, several for the drill press, plus not shown a blacksmiths vice, all that and i couldnt find the rubber jawed one, i think its at least 20 vices
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: RST on September 02, 2019, 07:55:53 PM
You really must "clamp down" on that obsession before it gets out of hand. Don't want vice squad knocking on your door for racketeering and having the best square cut corner of the market.  You need to get a grip on it I think.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: Baldrick on September 02, 2019, 08:51:29 PM
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/09/02/IMG_8088-Medium.jpg) (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/JE3B3)


   Are those TOES ?????  good grief fancy walking around in that with bare feet %%     
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on September 02, 2019, 08:54:47 PM
oops i found the rubber jawed vice, but in searching i found another 1 1/2" vice
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on September 02, 2019, 08:57:12 PM
its when you drop a 9AH 12v lead acid battery on them that hurts, i do clear up metal filings better, wood shavings are nothing, and i do have tough soles through doing most tings at home barefoot
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: RST on September 02, 2019, 09:40:42 PM
A longer second toe is supposed to be an example of a "leader" as well. Mine used to be like yours but points left when I broke it stubbing my toe quite lightly but it went "crack" then the whole foot went yellow and up my calf went purple.


We had someone on our boat offshore stub their toe wearing flip-flops where they shouldn't (flip-flops and crocks are cabin material only). Turned us into having to wear full PPE to walk past a regular space which was totally uneccesary. Incl hard hats and glasses, and you know what the guy who complained about his toe still walked through with shorts and flip-flops after.  Exercised his "right" to expose his rotten tonnails to one and all.  Not my lifeboat thankfully.  I just used to say make sure I'm Infront of you while you're pussyfooting across a hot deck or trying to climb a ladder. Just as well no Lego bricks offshore! If so, would just give you a slap and climb over!
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: derekwarner on September 03, 2019, 01:28:44 AM
A few points .......human toe formation with a protruding second toe is or are termed as Roman Toes O0 ...[as distinct from Roam-on toes]

Yes....leaders of men ...champions of the masses [people that is, as distinct from a Religious activity] practised by many in ancient Rome lands of the day


When I applied to our Department of Defence for a position of Engineering Weapons Foreman at our Garden Island Naval Dockyard, the only real criteria was not my previous engineering or man management qualifications and skills .......but at my 3rd interview I had to remove my shoes & socks
Yes that sealed the appointment as I had Roman toes  {-) 

Grendel.....what can we say......I suggest you have the most complete or greatest number of clamping type Vices in any well organised and tidily presented workshop ever seen......I do like your 3" Mr Nippy %)  ........completed with the square slotted slots  :-))


Derek
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: david48 on September 03, 2019, 08:57:03 AM
That's where my nail bar went !!
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 03, 2019, 10:42:04 AM
It seemed like a game of spot the vice at one point  {-)
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 03, 2019, 11:18:08 AM
Found a picture of the vice I have similar to the first post and only a partial of the second vice with the rotating jaws, the tommy bar to the right of the main body barrel controls the angle at which you rotate the jaw.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 03, 2019, 11:22:55 AM
The vice I want now is a 6" bench vice suitable enough to crush any old hard drives I have, though I would have to fit the thing initially to a macallister work bench outside, as due to experience the amount of flying debris is disconcerting as you tighten the jaws, plus i dont want to make too much mess in the workshop / loft   :D ;) %)
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on September 03, 2019, 11:59:48 AM
I was told by an IT guy that the easiest way to destroy a hard drive is to put a drill through it, as this renders the disc itself inoperable, and unsalvageable .
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: Baldrick on September 03, 2019, 12:06:02 PM
The vice I want now is a 6" bench vice suitable enough to crush any old hard drives I have, though I would have to fit the thing initially to a macallister work bench outside, as due to experience the amount of flying debris is disconcerting as you tighten the jaws, plus i dont want to make too much mess in the workshop / loft   :D ;) %)
 


  Give the hard drive 5 mins in a microwave oven, it's what I did with the wife's credit cards %)
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 03, 2019, 01:28:38 PM
yep, but that would mean having to by a new microwave for each hard drive zapped, over the years have several that I never disposed of, at work a big 6" vice could help crush it as we did for the old pc's we disposed of.


I would have thought the chip would have sparked the microwave, a pair of scissors is easier.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: Tug Fanatic on September 03, 2019, 02:09:46 PM
I was told by an IT guy that the easiest way to destroy a hard drive is to put a drill through it, as this renders the disc itself inoperable, and unsalvageable .


Pretty well nothing is unsalvageable. It just depends on how much work you are prepared to put into it. I take the disc out its case - thats the very shiny metal disc(s) put them in a garden bonfire & then bend them/ hammer them into interesting shapes.

Warspite,

That would be a very impressive pair of scissors
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: derekwarner on September 03, 2019, 10:40:42 PM
Just digressing....Microwaves + X Rays + Credit Cards, many years ago when body X-Rays were first introduced at Australian Airports...I flew from Sydney to Adelaide.......went to use my Combank Master card....= dead
Went to use my AMEX Card...................= dead


Went to the Commonwealth Bank in the City of Adelaide who suggested the data on the Card didn't exist, or subjected to magnetic influence
Went to the AMEX Office in the City  where it was confirmed that no data existed on the card........but could not explain how or why  it was OK before I flew over to Adelaide 2 days earlier


Talk about Vice  <*<
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 04, 2019, 10:28:04 AM
Yep scissors = credit card ok


40 ton press brake as a scissor  = hard drive - no contest


we had a metal work shop and it was suggested to use that, then we decided the boss might have something to say about us misusing the machine so the bench vice was used - still as good, though it was fixed to a 20' bench with a steel top and 4" wooden frame and various other steel vices and tool boxes on it  :}
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 18, 2019, 10:53:38 AM
So - no suggestions as to which brand of bench vice is the best - or are they much the same as each other, as previously stated they all appear to be a re-branded version for any company, is the case?, those that swivel on the base are they any good or is it just another item that fails after a couple of uses.


The one we had in the shed workshop when the company was set up to replace the original company when it closed due to the boss retiring, yes, bit of a story to that, the main screw had a quick release lever that used to fail every so often and we had to reset it before the vice could be used, so I was looking for one that didn't have this feature and most advertised don't have it anyway, but the quality of the main screw and the swivel feature makes me suspect of unknown brands, hence why the query.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on September 18, 2019, 11:29:32 AM
the small swivel ones I have (pale blue colour, are goodness knows how old, both came from boot fair purchases and showe a fair amount of wear, but both the brakes on the swivels still operate on the lock arm, so even though they are no name brand, and have had years of mistreatment they still work ok, so on that basis I wouldnt worry overly about the swivel bases, the more modern alloy ones with rubber jaws, on the basis they have a clamp screw on a ball joint, I would rate those as OK for light use, and the big beasties of bench mounted vices, well I hammer against those all the time and never managed to break one yet.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: grendel on September 18, 2019, 11:33:04 AM
that said, would I buy a brand new vice in the larger sizes, probably not, the quality of the older boot fair finds is probably far superior. (and cheaper, even if they do come in around £50)
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on September 18, 2019, 11:48:21 AM
@Warspite
Here are some online reviews. Some US models may be available in Europe. Most are not 6", but do you actually need that big. There are advantages and disadvantages to both larger and smaller items. Budget may also be a factor. I did have a quick look and at least one vice turns up in more than one 'best of' list.
I have to agree with Grendel about boot sales being a good way to go for quality, providing it is a really old one, and price.

https://bestofmachinery.com/best-bench-vise-review/ (https://bestofmachinery.com/best-bench-vise-review/)
https://healthyhandyman.com/best-bench-vise-guide/ (https://healthyhandyman.com/best-bench-vise-guide/)
https://toolsfirst.com/best-bench-vice/ (https://toolsfirst.com/best-bench-vice/)
https://www.garagetooladvisor.com/hand-tools/best-bench-vise/ (https://www.garagetooladvisor.com/hand-tools/best-bench-vise/)
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 18, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
Although the larger size may seem excessive, for the uses i seem to be engaged in, they are not some of the work being done in the home require a large surface area of grip hence the need for a 6" bench vice, but I am looking at a happy compromise of either the 4 or 5" versions,
as previously stated its the quality of the mechanism that makes me worried - as mentioned the older ones appear to be more robust.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: tigertiger on September 18, 2019, 01:53:27 PM
If the large surface area you need is for clamping non-metals, you might want to consider a carpenters vice. I am not sure if this is the case. Ignore me if it isn't the case.


These fix under your bench, as long as you have room for the screw and slide to protrude back into. You then make your own jaws, with the top of the jaws level with the bench top, and so no loss of bench top work area. Even an 8" vice mechanism can be fitted with 12" or longer jaws. I have an 8" on my bench, and I made the jaws from plywood. I used blocks of wood as very fat shims to make up the height and attached the vice from underneath with lag bolts.
If you have a thick bench top, and you set the face of the rear jaw flush with the bench edge, then the length of your bench top can act as the rear jaw. It is also worth considering carpenter's vices with a quick release lever (bottom pic) if you will do a lot of work.
How to fit videos on youtube.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on September 19, 2019, 10:07:58 AM
It's been many, many, many years since used one of these vices, and for wood - and carpentry they are excellent, so will look at either or for the purposes, many thanks, the use i need for is a mixture.
Title: Re: Vice
Post by: warspite on October 30, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
On reflection the carpenters are ok, but not for my bench - not enough meat to fix it, it's only 20mm thick plywood as the deck with no facia or support structure underneath (due to weight issues - it's a loft so not much weight allowed for a sturdy bench).


Still not decided yet, but here is a proper picture of my old mini vice.