Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: TugCowboy on September 02, 2019, 09:18:00 pm
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Hi All,
Rather frustrated today so excuse the rant.
I've spent over 2 years trying to set up a local model boat club and this year I've made some great progress with the local council to allow a club to use the local boating lake.
Had a good amount of prospective members set up and the majority of the paperwork including insurance etc all ready to go.
The lake has been a designated boating lake for many decades but had no boating use on it at all (let alone RC) for at least 20+ and everyone was very enthusiastic.
Sadly I've just had an email to say that given several situations over the summer featuring "youths" harassing local wildlife around the water with drones they had put a bylaw in for all council parks that banned any RC vehicle use at all and that would be the end of our application for the use of any council land or waters.
It was apparently accepted that although the water is designated as use for boating the bylaws trump this and they wouldn't be reviewing their decision, furthermore despite their absolute understand we would use the water responsibly they couldn't have one rule for one group and one for another so, yet again, any appeals would not be taken further.
After nearly 18 initial months of silence and ignored emails and calls I doubt I'll ever hear anything back again.
The lack of anywhere to sail is really killing my ability to enjoy my models at the moment and this feels like another substantial kick in the nuggets.
Thanks for listening fellow mayhem-ists.
Alex
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I really feel for you. That must be so frustrating. I can see the council's reasoning but what appalling luck for you that some thoughtless berks spoil your plans after so much effort. Our own shrunken, weedy lake doesn't seem so bad when I hear your story. And I can add my own frustration that I can't do anything to help.
:(( :(( :((
Greg
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Yea, a couple of us looked at setting up a club for the far north of Scotland over a good few years now but there just isn't any tangible interest. Nobody can stop us getting a model wet in a lot of places though, even if more than one person happens to turn up at the same time. I wouldn't expect any co-operation from Councils these days, I have a hard enough time getting my bins emptied -think they're interested in new social clubs, I doubt it unfortunately.
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I would describe trying to set up a club like heading cats while someones throwing thunderflashes at you.
One of the local ponds has had it level altered this year to deter boats being launched and recovered and I suspect that due to similar issues by a small minority (Drone and Boats) elsewhere in the area the council might knee jerk and ban RC's on their land if provoked further.
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...which pond was that?
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Probably best not to say in an open forum but near the sports centre if you catch my drift. One person with a IC race boat chasing ducks a few years back was the start of it - recent RC issues have been more drone focused but still in the same area.
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ps, if its public land or in a park, then you have a right to use the water as a public amenity. No matter what the council says. its normally better to go to the council and negotiate with them. get the community officer to help out
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Childish not to say really. Not sure whats to hide about........ 14 years in Inverness I've never seen the boating pond R/C model friendly once so far. Water too low from the periphery, flooded up over the paths or full of weed. I've even been there on glorious days and never seen one of the rowing boats out yet. The boy is always there in the little hut when the rowing boats are out but nobody seems interested. Not many people seem to make it past the ice cream hut!
....drones are a pain in the ass for most of us working outside and hovering marginally controlled but videoing me without asking above. No problem with them professionally (I've hired them for land surveys), unlicenced ones or amateur ones I've always said should be banned. Saying that I never saw one down there before either!
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Yes klunk! as long as youre not a t*** you can use it. The minute you start organising a gathering on the otherhand it starts to change. I would imagine that council officer would be as useless as most of them I've met in Highland council so far though.
....but in any case I think SJG and I have both found it hard to set up any interest in the area. We even know there are folk around -but we know we're strangely not so interested in anything formal. Its something I've got used to in our town over the years.
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It was upgraded a few years ago and the level increased. This meant that the throughflow kept the weeds at bay and would be great for model boats. Spoke to the engineer involved when was looking at a club for Inverness.
Visited last month with the hope of sailing there and found that the level had been dropped and it would be almost impossible to launch and recover.
Given the situation - I would hope that given a few months of no issues they will put the log back in and allow the water level to rise again so don't don't want to call too much attention.
Quite a few drones are flying in that area and some houses were damaged at Christmas near the park. When I was down just after the games they were racing them in the park.
The problem is if the very vocal minority in the area kick off the local council ponds will be off limits to us.
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not sure on scottish law, could be different. but I know in england, most water in public parks is open to public use. \In our case the water is actually got a fence round it, so it is out of bounds allegedly, but when you actually look into the situation, then it becomes clear that councils really dont have the power that they think they have.
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Two things spring to my mind.
Firstly drones, vs boats. I believe there are different restriction for RC flying regarding frequencies used. There may be other statutes that could be used to argue (with the local council) that RC flying is already classified differently from surface vehicles. Then leverage that.
Secondly, on water use. The problem with fencing mentioned is down to something called riparian rights. This is about the landowner's rights of protecting his land from erosion or flooding (among other things). The other thing to check is that some areas can be classed as a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) and may have additional protection.
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Two things spring to my mind.
Firstly drones, vs boats. I believe there are different restriction for RC flying regarding frequencies used. There may be other statutes that could be used to argue (with the local council) that RC flying is already classified differently from surface vehicles. Then leverage that.
There used to be different frequencies for air use and ground use (35MHz and 40MHz). Many now use 2.4GHz which can be used for both air and ground so no difference there.
Jim
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so other than digging your own hole and lining it - there is no other alternative - other than the re-introduction of the free sail boats where no RC is used, just point and hope it stays on course to collect from the other bank and miss any underwater hazzards.
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Council's being utter muppets again. Makes me wonder how those who make decisions & laws in councils get that job, because most are completely clueless, if it was something that the council wanted, the law would be *amended* within at week. I mean what idiot decided to bring in that law with no RC's at all? why not just no flying RC's?
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Any dinghy sailing clubs in the area? Sailing on inland water obviously.
We were recently approached by such a club who were looking for other water users to share their lake. They already have paddle boarders and canoeists. We still have our own water (shared with anglers), but this gives us an insurance policy in case anything happens. There are also less restrictions on the new water.
Barrie
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Council's being utter muppets again....
It's not just councils - when I started work we had someone launching marbleheads at one of our sites, problem was it was fenced off, remote (nearest farm 4 miles away) and if he fell he would be swept into a ravine. Even with full H&S gear and roped up it was terrifying crossing this part of the site.
As Barrie says it might be worthwhile looking for partner organisations who have access to water - It might be worthwhile trying to find out if there is any ponds on a redundant asset which could be used for a short time prior to disposal.
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It must be very frustrating. Press is full of councils trying to promote use of public spaces. Soon as folk want to use them up come the barriers. You're usually at the mercy of who's on the job or project that week also. I had some changes to a scheme in Culloden approved, know what: as soon as the contractors came in they ignored it and went plan A anyway. Gutted, what a waste of weeks of talks and effort. Council probably never did change things behind closed doors. Will never trust any of them ever again.
Sorry SJG: didn't know that about or local boating pond. I just thought it was always kept that low (and often weedy) because of the proximity to the Ness. Also I always pick cooler / breezy days for walks so no wonder the drone plebs aren't there. And I must admit I've been working away this year. I've been very careful up at the college also. Park in the visitors area and walk down with a big box. No duck worrying. Other folk always seem to drive round and park in their cars to save that extra 300yd walk off their afternoon stroll.
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It's not just councils - when I started work we had someone launching marbleheads at one of our sites, problem was it was fenced off, remote (nearest farm 4 miles away) and if he fell he would be swept into a ravine. Even with full H&S gear and roped up it was terrifying crossing this part of the site.
As Barrie says it might be worthwhile looking for partner organisations who have access to water - It might be worthwhile trying to find out if there is any ponds on a redundant asset which could be used for a short time prior to disposal.
but in this case, it was the council who said no due to youths using drones etc. Council just waved the ba stick on all RC models, which is just pathetic. I understand & agree 100% about drones being banned due to the reasons explained, but to ban ALL rc models is just council being muppets!
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Thanks for all the support guys, much appreciated.
I've decided to pull out the big guns, which isn't something I wanted to do until now, as I have a friend who is married to the local Councillor in charge of leisure which covers the area the lake is in. I've presented them with images and all the info we've got in our research which shows the lake being used for boating, even pictures of kids sailing toy yachts as far back as 1910!
If that doesn't work then I'll just have to discount using any public parks - I don't want to go through the whole battle of setting a club up using council land without their approval as it will seriously limit what we'd be able to achieve there other than just turning up and sailing in a loosely organised manner.
I've already got a few potential backups in local holiday sites which have ponds on their property but it reduces the chance of their being able to attract members via footfall alone and is likely to come with some stringent access restrictions.
Plodding onwards regardless. Hopefully one day I'll have somewhere to enjoy my hobby without having to drive an hour away!
Alex
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Is it worth looking at how other councils have approached this issue and what bylaws they have in force - especially what they specifically do about operating drones in public places? If your council is out of line with many others that may help you make the case.
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Speaking to councillors is always the best way forward, but you need to go further and get on first name terms with senior council officers, heads of departments, journalists and MPs etc. They find it much harder to say no to Alex, rather than to the world at large.
Also start a community group for the park. One of our first acts when we were served notice to quit our previous lake was to create "Friends of Eirias Park" who do litter picks, find grants for park improvements and soon your group is doing more for the park than the council ever did and the publicity attracts people who join to help.
Then you are an effective pressure group and not just some old blokes nagging for special treatment. Under pressure council got us a £45,000 grant to restore a bigger lake in the park.
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look at this link
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-government-legislation-byelaws#making-a-new-byelaw
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Knowing how Councils react, would it be worth talking to Sport England and consider restricting to RC sail only?
No conflict over noise and a bit of help from their Royal Charter?
What's to loose?
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but in this case, it was the council who said no due to youths using drones etc. Council just waved the ba stick on all RC models, which is just pathetic. I understand & agree 100% about drones being banned due to the reasons explained, but to ban ALL rc models is just council being muppets!
So its okay to ban all drone users because of a few miscreants? Isn't that the way the council is approaching ALL RC users?
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look at this link
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-government-legislation-byelaws#making-a-new-byelaw (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-government-legislation-byelaws#making-a-new-byelaw)
It would be very interesting on analysis to see their answers to each individual point requiring consideration prior to making the bye law?
It would on being challenged at a higher level, seemingly fail when tested against the proportional and alternative solution points?
FWIW, would not go down the personal contact route too far, could ruin a friendship?
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Speaking to councillors is always the best way forward, but you need to go further and get on first name terms with senior council officers, heads of departments, journalists and MPs etc. They find it much harder to say no to Alex, rather than to the world at large.
Also start a community group for the park. One of our first acts when we were served notice to quit our previous lake was to create "Friends of Eirias Park" who do litter picks, find grants for park improvements and soon your group is doing more for the park than the council ever did and the publicity attracts people who join to help.
Then you are an effective pressure group and not just some old blokes nagging for special treatment. Under pressure council got us a £45,000 grant to restore a bigger lake in the park.
There are usually loads of grants you can apply for, but it needs to be an organised group. When I worked for a Council, we had an officer dedicated to ensuring locals got as much free cash as possible. I suspect that position has long since gone so Central Government can claw back any money to pay for their expenses...
However, being part of a group that does something positive is a big help. The Councils simply don't have the staff for "nice" things in the way they used to have. If you aren't ticking a central government mandated box (and there are lots of those) then it doesn't get done and hoping there is a box for nice things is a waste of time (write to your MP). Anyway, lots of Councils are happy to get a group to take over caring for green space and will support it. Councillors and Chief Officers love having their photo taken for the local press taking some of the credit.
(Incidentally, this isn't just a UK thing. Central Park in New York is was saved from dereliction by The Central Park Community Fund)
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I've already got a few potential backups in local holiday sites which have ponds on their property but it reduces the chance of their being able to attract members via footfall alone and is likely to come with some stringent access restrictions.
Forget footfall. People will find you via your website and Facebook page. The KMBC (http://kmbcmodelboatclub.com/) is hidden away on a farm, away from prying eyes and we aren't short of members. Being out of the public gaze means we rarely have trouble with yobs or vandals. Having to put a bit of effort in to find us means they normally don't (let's hope I'm not tempting fate saying this!) and we get to sail in peace any day of the week.
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Should they be flying drones in a public park anyway given the rules/legislation already in place as regards their use?
Poor show by the Council as given a bit more thought (well some!) they could have brought in a new by-law but worded it so that only RC could be used where prior approval had been obtained/licenced and insurance was in place which could have easily out-lawed the illegal use of drones without a blanket ban.
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Poor show by the Council as given a bit more thought (well some!) they could have brought in a new by-law but worded it so that only RC could be used where prior approval had been obtained/licenced and insurance was in place which could have easily out-lawed the illegal use of drones without a blanket ban.
Welcome to the world of red tape!
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I wont bore all with the details, but I gained permission to use a small lake with waterplanes, its was a battle, but getting a new byelaw passed a big task, and this is how I won, as there wasn't a byelaw in place prohibiting the use I wanted. I became a thorn in the council side
so, have you seen evidence of the new byelaw? this claim might be something to just make you go away. You might have to fight against disturbing nesting birds and so on, that's another thing. If its a public park, I would just carry on, what's the chance of a councillor actually turning up and moving you on?
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Thanks guys.
Bit of an interesting turn to the story so far. Managed to get my hands on the public version of the published bylaws and they actually state that "Model boats" may be used in designated areas. There is a boating lake so this seems like the ideal place to me.
I've also, with the help of a local historian and local Councillor who is in support of the idea, managed to come up with a whole host of images of that lake being used for boats and model boats. One of the images is even of kids sailing toy boats back in 1904. The most recent image is from the late 80's but the lake is still designated on official council maps as a Boating Lake Today.
I haven't seen any proof of the new bylaw banning all RC craft yet, nor any documents supporting its application.
I'm still wary of wanting to wage a war with the council over this as I don't want them to be a hostile partner, I'd much rather have their support/blessing to make things easier to expand and organise events in the future, but right now I'm trying to keep on at them with the facts, and pushing the viewpoint that it'll mainly be a small group of blokes interested in playing with model boats and promoting some responsible model use in the area rather than the negatives that have been seen recently.
I also don't want to just organise meeting up with other modellers there and sail regardless as the individual In charge of the park has CCed all the rangers in to the emails saying we can't use it and it's quite well patrolled.
Thanks for all the continued support so far, still not actually any further forward but much more ammunition in our corner at the moment.
Alex
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to give a bit of help, I was faced with exactly the same, but I was flying rc waterplanes, which brings more complications. I agree, don't take on a war, but become a thorn in their side. The small lake I use was still showing on google earth as a model boat lake. They didn't want me there, but just couldn't come up with a reason, and by their own admission, the thought of setting a new byelaw was too much trouble, so they thought I would just go away, which I didn't.
Things that helped:
I did a risk assessment on the site, and offered the position I would use to launch the models
I offered a compromise, so no IC, no fast stuff etc, no racing, just scale models
I said there would be a cap on numbers ( less than 10)
litter patrol
signage saying rc planes in operation
I even involved the BMFA (British model flying association)!
the agreement was very restrictive, avoiding school hols, no weekends, no bank hols, 9.00am to 3.30pm the big restriction was avoiding the migrating and nesting seasons, I get that, with flying, but if you offer compromise you might get a result :-))
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It's important to get your local councillor(s) on side. The Chief Officers in the Council might consider them a pain (they were, often interfering in things they had no understanding of and being less interested in results than scoring points) but they do have to be listened too by the organisation. Clobber them with a confrontational attitude and you are wasting your time, but butter them up and you suddenly have a freind in high places, especially if they think they will get their picture in the paper...