Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: T888 on October 27, 2019, 09:25:11 pm
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Gents,
A friend is building a WW2 German destroyer and has a picture of the aft funnel that shows what looking bells! Can any one advise what they are ?
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I thought I had but alas no, but I have a proper photo of the items from German Destroyers by Robert Brown which may help further in your inquiry.
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Hi Nick
Thanks I’ve seen this picture as well, it just does not make any sense as they look like bells, but why would the have bell on the funnels {:-{
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Those bells look like they may have glass lenses under the 'bell'.
Are they lamps? I'm guessing at array of lamps for signalling?
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A third option, could they be klaxons?
It seems odd as if you go with any of the three theories so far- bells, lights, or klaxons- why would you need so many in one place especially laid out in that particular way?
I could understand one, two or three items together but when you see that many it does make you wonder are we thinking too much inside the box (so to say) or too far out of the box? It’ll end up being something completely normal that no one would think of!
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Smoke screen generators? Are they on both sides of the funnel?
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Thanks gents
Photos I’ve seen does show these on both side of the funnel, but only fitted to the aft funnel. Smoke generator seem more likely that bells or klaxons.
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Sounds logical to me too
Been reading up on the subject and I’m not 100% sure if they are smoke generators or not as according to several sources the main methods of smoke generating were via the boiler room or smoke canisters at the stern using chemical generators (usually acid of some kind sprayed over another chemical) but it was dangerous due to the toxicity.
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Good point, the other item to say its not smoke generators, is the cables shown in both pictures.
Just don’t know what they are.
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Good point, the other item to say its not smoke generators, is the cables shown in both pictures.
Just don’t know what they are.
If they were Smoke generators (and I'm not saying they are!) there would be control wiring going to them as well as chemical piping.
Voice Tannoys for convoy communications?
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I wonder if it is some sort of RF direction finding array probably at a radar frequency but the side of the funnel seems a strange place to mount it.
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I have asked on the Kriegsmarine modellers group
for You.
As soon as I get an answer will let you know :-))
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Could it be some sort of central manifold for fire fighting???.
Regards,
Ray.
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Thanks Ginger.
And thanks to all that have replied and tried to helped , it’s appreciated
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Chemical smoke would stain the
funnel somewhat I would think.
You wouldn't want to be climbing up
there to attach the hoses.
Looks like they are electrically
connected. The mind boggles ;D
Ned
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Tell me about it O0 O0
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A bell carillon to signify Victory
in WW2. Obviously unused and surplus
to requirements %)
Ned
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Those baffle plates have got me wandering - surely they are there to avoid light showing fore and aft - - which therefore suggests downward light only. So, some sort of warning, to anyone in the vicinity, of guns going to action or something like that.
(Maybe I should have had my afternoon nap after all)
Regards,
Ray.
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Noticed those Ray, Looks
like some sort of light baffle.
Down lighting would not needed
so many lamps I think.
Mind still in the boggling state.
Ned
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Hi Ned, good point ref so many units (18 per side) maybe upper ones for fwd guns, lower ones for aft.
I'm just clutching at straws now...
Think I'll leave it at that unless I can find the definitive answer :-X
Regards,
Ray.
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I notice there are 4 pairs of aerials with the 'bells/lights/klingons'. Could these be part of the thingamyjig array ?
Also, if they are lights, would not the bottom row obscure the top row ?
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I have asked and one of the german gents has informed me they are some sort of insulator!
I have asked him for some more details and what it is this equipment does :-))
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Thanks gingyer.
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I have asked and one of the german gents has informed me they are some sort of insulator!
That was the only one of my thoughts that I didn't commit to this quiry - Doh!
Regards,
Ray.
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Insulating what? Insulators that sort of size are like the ones on high tension power lines but there are no major cables going to or from them.
Having skimmed through my references, not all Kreigsmarine destroyers had these fitted.
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Invisibility shield generators?
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The Philadelphia Experiment?
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Probably an early form of using the ships superstructure as a Radio Transmitting aerial.
The antenna next to it was probably the exciter
Array RN ships did the same but we used exciters
Slung from the masts and our funnels used as aerials never had these insulators.
Ned
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Are they steam vents
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Could be - and that was another answer I was looking at.
There's a total of 36 'bells' and, I believe, these vessels had 6 steam tube boilers, which equates to 6 outlets each.
Could be it's just me scraping around for an answer though %) .
Regards,
Ray.
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Could be but why have wires and aerials ? For steam vents ?
I like the radio transmitter option.
But please keep posting, someone must know what they are.
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IMO, if I found something like this that I could not quite understand I would still try to model the detail, as accurately as possible from the photographic evidence shown, rather than omit it totally.
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The wires could be probes and the control valves for the vents.
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Ref the Steam vent idea, surely both funnels would have had them.
Ned
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Having looked through my reference books I can't find any actual explanation on what the items were for. I did note that the original picture looks to be of Z39 when in USN hands post WW2 and that the Dragon 1/350th kit appears to have included them. I would suggest asking the question at Model Warships forum in the dedicated thread as there are plenty of German contributors that should have something to offer:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=6980&hilit=z37&start=160
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Thanks will do
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Invisibility shield generators?
Sorry bit late - this is German not Klingon
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Not Romulan either
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If you download the large file image of Nick's photo from US Naval Historical Center and magnify it the 'bells' actually look like lamps. They are screened from view fore and aft by shields so a good guess is that they were recognition lights.
https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-75000/NH-75405.html
Colin
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If they were recognition lights, they
could be recognised by friend and foe
alike. Action stations at night invariably
meant 'Darken Ship' No lights to be shown
Red lighting by all deck accesses and
darken ship screens on every door.
Ned
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Ned, the German Navy used coloured recognition lights in WW1 - see reports of Jutland night action. They were not left on all the time but used as challenges to unidentified vessels by flashing a predetermined pattern on and off. The RN used morse code letters by signal light for challenge and reply.
At Jutland the Germans managed to intercept part of the British code and flashed it back when challenged, this caused enough confusion for the Germans to get the drop on their opponents in several instances.
This would make sense of the fittings on the funnel. Flashing the lights on and off quickly was faster than sending morse and thought to be more effective in reducing vulnerability.
The US Navy used recognition lights in WW2 which resulted in the sinking of USS Monssen:
https://destroyerhistory.org/benson-gleavesclass/ussmonssen/ (https://destroyerhistory.org/benson-gleavesclass/ussmonssen/)
Colin
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I knew about the recognition lights in WW1.
Just thinking about the advances in Comms
In WW2 had me thinking about my work on
Wideband Superstructure aerials in early 60's
when we still had a lot of WW2 ships in the fleet.
Someone will surely come up with the definitive
answer.
Ned
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I just got an answer back from the german gent....
I did some research again and find out is light system for tactical signals! .The colors of the lamps: Green, Red, White [/color][/size]With this light system, tactical signals were sent to other ships belonging to the ship's squadron[/color]
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That's great news - thanks for the update gingyer :-))
Regards,
Ray.
mrlownotes takes 1st prize
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Yes thank Gingyer, I new some one would come up with the answer :-)) thanks to all.
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At last! Now we can all sleep soundly in our beds tonight.
Magnification of the US records image did show they were almost certainly lights. I suppose they were a sort of illuminated version of flag signals in a way. I wonder how successful the method was and to what extent it was used in practice.
Just another little historical byway which has been almost lost to posterity.
Colin
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Great outcome. We learn something new
even at 76 :D :D
Ned
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That's great news - thanks for the update gingyer :-))
Regards,
Ray.
mrlownotes takes 1st prize
I win..........not being use to making public speeches.......blah blah......... I humbly accept this accolade............ :D
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When I saw the post originlly I immediately thought a light signalling system but without any vessel details couldn't find anything on google for want of trying so I said nothing! Wished I'd posted now LoL. I wasn't that close though -I was fairly sure it might be a way of producing a pattern giving an "O", "X" "=", "I I", "." or "\" "/" etc. Did I miss what vessel or class the original query was on though? Someone at some point might be looking for the same answer!
Rich
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Hi Rich, Z39 seems to be the one (see reply no. 34 above) :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Cool, that's what I converged googling also.
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ok i am the one who is trying to build the model, thanks for your help, but i am thinking, ( not having been in the navy, ) could they be radar receiver, for early detection of enemy radar signals have seen the exact layout on a geman destroys bridge,
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No, as explained in post #42 above they are tactical signalling lights. That is the answer.
Colin
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lights it is, many thanks, to all ,