Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Full Scale Ships => Topic started by: Colin Bishop on November 12, 2019, 01:36:36 pm
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I have seen a report which suggests that entry of PoW to Portsmouth may be as early as this Friday lunchtime 15th November.
Colin
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Friday or Saturday is what I have heard.
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13:25 at the Round Tower on Friday is the latest. Just on the spring tide. The usual weather permitting etc..
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Thanks for that. I will monitor QHM tomorrow and hope to get down.
Colin
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Not mentioned on QHM Friday list of shipping movements.
Colin
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Weather doesn't look like a factor for either tomorrow or Saturday. Local radio is still saying Friday or Saturday, and PoW is currently pootling about in the channel south of the Isle of Wight, so anyones guess really!
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QHM Friday still doesn't mention her. Another source I have is saying Saturday. If so I assume sometime after 2pm.
As you say, the ship has more or less arrived offshore. Was off Dartmouth yesterday apparently.
Colin
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There is a Temporary No Fly notice for drones just gone up from 11:35am till 3:05pm on Saturday. Looks like that's your day!
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Now confirmed for just after lunch tomorrow (Saturday).
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/qhm/portsmouth/shipping-movements/daily-movements?date=16/11/2019
Colin
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Must remember to tune into Warriorcam.
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when it does start it's journey into portsmouth you can watch it on this live webcam. at the moment according to a marine traffic site it's sitting stationary just off the east coast of the i of w, the blue blob.
https://isleofwightwebcams.co.uk/solent-webcam/ (https://isleofwightwebcams.co.uk/solent-webcam/)
https://www.vesselfinder.com/ (https://www.vesselfinder.com/)
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I went down to Portsmouth today and it was well worth it to see the PoW come in, a very impressive sight.
Just as the ship was due to pass through the harbour entrance a gentleman with a power boat decided that it was a nice afternoon for a trip out and headed for the open sea despite all the security boats with flashing blue lights in the immediate vicinity. Immediately the MoD Poluice boat put on the 'blues and twos' and told him in no uncertain terms to get lost.
Colin
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Your man Pete on MB forum might be interested in the pics of the pilot 40's (2 of them?). I have a hull for this pending starting a build at some point. Was interested to see them out there in real life.
....An impressive vessel! The beam always takes me aback. What a shame we don't build "pretty" ships any more though.
Thanks for sharing the photos.
Rich
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We had taped the last of the 3 parts of the lizzy one, you would have thought the designers would have incorporated a chaplaincy and even a spare room for the band that the ships take to sea for diplomatic events, during conflicts, these rooms could double up as either stores or additional medical recovery rooms. rather than a room in an obscure location or the 'Toilet paper store'. {:-{
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....An impressive vessel! The beam always takes me aback. What a shame we don't build "pretty" ships any more though
Rich
Maybe they can finish the bow. Or did they leave it behind?
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Despite being a lot smaller in displacement than the US carriers the QE class flight deck area is only marginally smaller, 4 acres against 4.5 acres.
Colin
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Back on the Lizzie again , watching last weeks episode of the F35 attempting the worlds first rolling landings. I was surprised as how much it was a pure pilot seat of the pants manoeuvre this is. The previous landings involving hover and controlled crash onto the deck @ 3ft/sec has previously seemed a bit primitive but the rolling landing is something else. The pilot has to approach at a precise speed, angle of descent, distance from stern and alignment in order to get his £100 million kit onto the deck( not forgetting to level out at very last moment). It took our best test pilots several attempts and fly overs to get it down. I would have thought the approach system would have given a pilot a radio or IR beam to lock onto for landing.
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Colin, their decks may be marginally smaller, but is their hitting power only marginally smaller, as yet have not heard of their future aircraft numbers etc. Does anyone know them, I believe there is only about 55 F35B's acquired and some of them could be going to the RAF.
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Hi David
There are currently 135 F-35B aircraft being purchased and being used in the same manner as Joint Force Harrier was. At the moment there are three squadrons (617, 207, and 809NAS) in operation with 17 Sqn in the USA collecting the aircraft as they are built and delivering them to the Marham based squadrons.
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Fair point Dodes but the point I was suggesting is that our carriers are possibly better value for money than their US counterparts. The design of the existing Nimitz carriers goes back decades and they are incredibly manpower intensive. Their upgraded successors in the Ford class are encountering huge cost overruns, technical problems and an inability to get the lead ship operational which is now years behind schedule.
By comparison, our two QEs, although costing more than planned (partly due to a deliberate extended building period) seem to be getting through their trials relatively successfully. PoW was not originally due into Portsmouth until next month but initial trials were completed ahead of schedule.
Obviously a 65,000 ton carrier isn't going to have the same potential striking capability of a 100,000 ton one and tha actual strike capability will be determined by budgetary considerations (the price of the F35) rather than the characteristics of the carriers themselves.
I suspect that in years to come, the RN and the country will appeciate the versatility of having two big flat decks capable of multiple roles just as the much more cramped Invincible 'through deck cruisers' performed well in excess of their originally envisaged roles over their careers.
The bane of the RN has always been ships built down to a price so that they rapidly become obsolete and incapable of upgrading, the batch 1 Type 42s are a classic example. Despite their current engineering problems, which can be overcome, the type 45 destroyers offer the space to give them long service lives. Much cheaper than having to build replacements after 15 years or so. I have read reports that the type 45 issues were identified at the design stage but were ignored due to the short term requirement to save money. Nothing new there.
Colin
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Hi sorry to show my ignorance here, but are both carriers identical?
When I watch the videos etc of the US carriers in action so much is devoted to the launch system with many sailors on deck. Without a catapult the deck should be clear except for safety personnel.
I take the point about the rolling landing, it would seem an avoidable risk, but it suggests that there are arrester cables on the deck? But perhaps for other a/c? Do the UK carriers have air control a/c? Or is this type of a/c no longer needed?
If there is an emergency it would seem that a whole group of aircraft could take to the sky at the same time rather than two at a time as per US carriers.
With the speeds of the US a/c the first and last a/c taking off would be some distance apart and a renezvous will take extra time when going on a mission.
Vertical t/o has all the a/c together so might well be more efficient?
regards
Roy
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Vertical take-offs aren't 'part of the plan' for the F-35s. (I refuse to call them 'Lightnings', real Lightnings have two engines, one above the other....)
The normal shipboard routine is a rolling take-off up the ski-jump with the lift fan running and the exhaust nozzle deflected at around 45 degrees. That's a lot more fuel efficient than a vertical take-off and it increases the strike range and the possible weapons load, which is why the ski-jump was invented for the Sea Harrier in the first place.
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Vertical take-offs aren't 'part of the plan' for the F-35s. (I refuse to call them 'Lightnings', real Lightnings have two engines)
Glad I’m not only one who does the same- proper Lightning’s are capable of Mach 2+ and look demonic in bare metal schemes!
I call the F35 ‘JSFs’ which is certainly dates me in the RAF. I called Tornado a Tonka, Typhoon a Typhoon (older generations call them Eurofighters, even older call them EFAs) but I’m of that generation who will always know the F35 as the JSF!
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I find it strange that as a supposedly Vstol aircraft that it has to approach at a steep angle and at a precise speed to do a rolling landing, the old harrier could pull up along side and slide in, can the JSF not do the same thing, even with a full bomb load still on board - the whole point of the maneuver is to land saving the weapons on board rather than dumping them prior.
I thought the aircraft is controllable why is it not able to descend to the deck in more a controlled manner, its got to be safer than coming in a greater angle than usual, granted the fuel use may be reason why, but if test pilots found it hard, then the less experienced pilots following on behind are going to find it very difficult until they gain the experience.
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I think it's all about landing with unexpended munitions, there isn't enough power for a safe vertical landing so some forward motion is needed to generate additional lift.
The tests are there to establish a safe envelope for pilots to use. Once that is done then the operational pilots should be able to work within it. But somebody has to be first!
Colin
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I understood the need due to unused munitions, but where a fully laden F16 on a US carrier is at breakneck speed the Vstol should be able to come in at a relatively slower speed with better control as remember he has to come to a stop without the aid of any arrester cables as they are not fitted to lizzy or the prisoner of war Oh I mean the prince of wales :P %) ;)
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I think part of the problem is that the F35 has a much fiercer and more concentrated blast from the downward jet than the Harrier ever had. The harrier used a wider spread and cooler down jet which in effect allowed the pilot to bring the plane down like an Otis elevator to a soft landing . The F35 has a fierce blast not much bigger dia. than a dinner plate. We know that they had to develop a very special deck finish to stand the blast but it seems they still have to limit the hover by stabilising with the fan nozzle 3M off the deck and then coming down fast and immediately cutting the engine. You may have noticed that on the earlier test landings as soon as the landed plane was rolled an engineer was over to the hot spot taking readings and examining the surface .
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The F35 also weighs over twice a much as the Harrier, even empty!
Colin
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Yes and I noticed when night flying the exhaust glowed red.
Roy
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The runway and hover pads at Marham were rebuilt when I was stationed there earlier last year to take the heat blast from the JSF exhaust. They were not allowed to use the Tornado taxiing areas for fear of melting the tarmac!
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A few points -
When taking off or landing vertically the F35B needs to use its afterburner, the Harrier did not have an afterburner, so its exhaust was significantly cooler.
The F35B has sucessfuly trialled a convential landing, using partial vectored thrust. This allows the aircraft to land at a geater weight. These trials were shown on the recently aired BBC TV series on HMS Queen Elizabeth.
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Well gentleman, thanks for the info which does not seem to be in the general info given on the carriers I have seen. But yes Colin they would be cheaper than the Yanks, because I should imagine our vessels are not sophisticated as the Yanks, with no nuclear propulsion, magnetic catapults etc and the ability to operate fixed wing aircraft which gives the ability to have a versatile mix of aircraft for particular tasks. I have read on American sites the U.S.Navy refused the F35 as they felt it was not suitable and went for their own design, which is now currently in service. But whatever, just hope our boys never have to test any of this gear in anger.
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The F35 is used by the US Navy and US Marines. The Marines have the same variant as the RN while the US Navy has the conventional carrier variant which requires catapults and arrestor wires. They are all fixed wing aircraft (as opposed to rotary wing).
There have been a lot of problems with the F35 programme and you can get an idea of this from the Wiki entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II
The RN and RAF use the same STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) variant for interchangeability, no doubt Nick can give a better idea of what this might entail in practice.
Colin
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The USN F-36s are the C variant, which has longer, and folding, wings compared to the USAF's A variant and the USMC and RAF's (and others as well) B variant.
Only the aft exhaust of the F-35B is mega hot, the front fan, which only operates during take-off and landing, runs at 'room temperature', but it blows VERY hard.
Big headedly I'd say they only work because of me :-) as I installed and maintained the monster welder at Rolls Royce nr. Nottingham which produces every lift fan for every F-35B variant.
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Sounds good, I was on a USA site and they had a pic off a F37 or 38, which had just done a trial landing it had a female test pilot. The guy was going on about it was the navy's own plane and not the F35, but to be honest my age I let it all go over my head now as long as my pension is paid each month. But my wife's nephew loves the F35, but then he had the job of evaluating them and training the RAF pilots in the USA. Myself I still love the old Buccaneer.
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Myself I still love the old Buccaneer.
NOW you're talking! :-))
The Bucc was a real aeroplane, machined from the solid, or so they told me when was sorting out their test rig at Brough. :-)
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NOW you're talking! :-))
The Bucc was a real aeroplane, machined from the solid, or so they told me when was sorting out their test rig at Brough. :-)
I had a customer in Saturday after advice on the best Buccaneer kit to start with, the old Matchbox one or the new Airfix one ( I suggested the Matchbox one, a bit of a dog, but so many less parts! ). It turned out he flew them for ten years back in the day, RAF though, not Fleet Air Arm, not his fault %) . Less than one hour later, I was selling a 1/48 Airfix Lightning to an ex Lightning pilot of twelve years standing. I think he won that one!
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( I suggested the Matchbox one, a bit of a dog, but so many less parts! ).
Yes, the new Airfix Buccaneer kit is a wonderful piece of plastic engineering, but the box is just about TWICE as large as its predecessor, in the same scale. {:-{
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Talking of Buccaneers, took this pic when it was circling Gib to warn of the Spanish police boats in about 1984, she was about 200ft above the North mole. They had about 6 there and what a sight they made.
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Back to the F35 I cant understand why it has a forward tiltin opening cockpit ?
chris
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Please tell.
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I have no idea either- added complication and it means you have to jettison the windscreen with it when trouble happens. Not logical to me! {:-{
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Is it something to do with the air brake behind the cockpit?
Colin
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Is it something to do with the air brake behind the cockpit?
Colin
Google indicates so
To provide more room for the lift fan assembly the hinge system is at the front
Re ejection of canopy I believe it is automatic with explosive bolts if the seat is operated
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Re ejection of canopy I believe it is automatic with explosive bolts if the seat is operated
That’s standard on most fast jet aircraft, can go horribly wrong if the wrong pins are fitted to the seat- the seat can fall out as per a rather nasty incident in 2007 when my mate Wolfy was killed in a Tornado.
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Re my previous statement
Apparently there are three lengths of cockpit and it’s not a problem on the short canopy but is in the longer ones hence hinged at the front
(https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a63ddcc0c289f9457bc3ebab.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/17909/norway-hangar-photo__main.jpg)
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Interesting, I had a funny incident at Marham before I was posted earlier this year regarding the canopy on the F35. 617 Sqn had to borrow one of our HASs to change a canopy and obviously we were quite interested in seeing it as it being the new toy in the RAF. They had a scratch which they needed to blend out so they did but as they peeled back the masking tape it ripped the gold layer off the canopy!
As a result they had to change the entire canopy which took several days to complete being one of the first canopy changes in the F35 history. The station commander was not impressed!
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So NickB says........"The station commander was not impressed!"
It is a wonder that the SC/CO was not demoted & reposted to a British Base in Bahrain, Belize or Brunei :-X
Or was a scapegoat <*< found in the Ranks below?
Derek
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Not using Tamiya Tape then :D
Ned
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NOW you're talking! :-))
The Bucc was a real aeroplane, machined from the solid, or so they told me when was sorting out their test rig at Brough. :-)
Apologies here.
Sorry for the hijack but......weren't they the planes that couldn't hit the Torrey Canyon wreck to set it on fire?
Brain freeze???
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Apologies here.
Sorry for the hijack but......weren't they the planes that couldn't hit the Torrey Canyon wreck to set it on fire?
Brain freeze???
I believe they hit the wreck OK, but crude oil is actually quite difficult to set alight (which was the aim of the exercise to prevent the slick reaching land). The RAF/FAA were not (and are not) equipped with anti-crude oil weapons!
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Most bombs i saw land seemed to miss?......... {-)
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IIRC they were trying to miss the ship but ignite the oil plume escaping from her, but as SailorGreg says, it's damn difficult to ignite.
The Bucc was still a fine aeroplane, and maybe the best low level strike aircraft the FAA, RAF or any other air force ever had on their books. As the USAF found out to their cost during numerous Red Flag exercises.
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If that hard to ignite, why do they in dirty great big red letters ' NO SMOKING ' on the superstructures {-) , maybe they should have used napalm in bottles with a grenade as the bottle is released the pin on the grenade pulls out and aimed at the ship the bottle smashes, then when the grenade goes off, or a package of C4 dropped and then an observer detonates the package. or is that to fancyful.
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If that hard to ignite, why do they in dirty great big red letters ' NO SMOKING ' on the superstructures
I would think because you get a volatile gas build up within the tank spaces and that definitely is flammable! On the open sea the gas would simply dissipate.
Colin
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As SailorGreg said, neither the RAF not the FAA are, or were equipped with anti-crude oil weapons.
Hindsight is, of course, the world's only exact science...……….. :-)
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I would think because you get a volatile gas build up within the tank spaces and that definitely is flammable! On the open sea the gas would simply dissipate.
Colin
Maybe a direst hi would have given the desired ignition? :-))
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I see the old tub is in the local news again, apparently in the recent high winds she moved on the berth within her moorings constraints and ripped out her shore power cable. The on duty crew had to be hosted overnight on her sistership until the next day when it could be repaired.
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She's a new tub!
Colin
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Hi Colin the New Tub is in the local rag again, apparently the new 290m£ airborne radar for the Merlin's called Crow's-nest is not working they say it is too sensitive to work.
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Yes, so it seems.
Colin
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Without knowing the detail [from loose lips sinking ships Pub Talk :embarrassed: ] surely this related to the Helicopter builder Augusta-Westland [or sub-contractor for the Merlin bit] & not the builders of RO9?.......
Would this issue not also be with RO8?
Derek
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Nothing to do with Westland either, the radar manufacturer-Lockheed Martin- are the ones developing the system.
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Nick it is an early warning radar carried in a Merlin for the Carrier. Much the same on previous carriers such as carried by the Gannets then in Helio's on later versions.
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Hi David
I know mate but the radar is being made by Lockheed which is where the problem lays, not with Agusta Westland (Leonardo), they are the aircraft manufacturer. Just because it’s attached to the helicopter doesn’t mean that Leonardo has developed it in anyway.
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So just left of centre, if your joint venture between Lockheed & Martin are experienciencing a few technical issues with your Military communications systems, why not look for a third Partner to help?
Huawei have collaborated with Marine Networks Co to form a creditable alliance .......the Huawei Parent Co appears to be currently experiencing a few minor personality disquites with those in Power in the US, however considering the independence that exists between the US & the UK, it could always worth asking for help from the 'as reported'... World Leaders in technology :embarrassed:
Just yesterday it is reported that the UK 5G telecommunications industry is to accept support by Huawei.....so if it's OK for your telephones, why not OK for your Military Radar? %)
From all reports, our Darwin Ports Authority [DPA] is providing an excellent incident free control of the movement of vessels in the Port of Darwin, which include those of our RAN [and those of visiting US vessels].....just as reference, the DPA won the 99 year lease to control the Port, it is owned by a Shelf Company which is 51% owned by none other than .......yes you guessed Huawei :-X
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A few days ago, sailing from Portsmouth. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/gUx7XNfqXCQ (https://youtu.be/gUx7XNfqXCQ)
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Great viewing of the P of W ........didn't see many of her compliment in Dress Uniform deckside.......which must ask the begging question.....
''does she have a full compliment?" ...or will she pick a Press Gang %) at Liverpool?
Derek
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So those pressed in to service will be POW's - boom boom, i thank you {-)
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Groan {:-{
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'does she have a full compliment
depend what you mean by full compliment?
to sail about and conduct trials... Yes, remember the QE class are highly automated its been highlighted its even more manpower efficient than the new American carriers.
to go to war, and operate at full pace.. no its not got all the air side crew onboard yet
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Ginger is right peace time compliment is always a lot lower than wartime usually, when the last WW started all ships had their compliments increased, the Hood for example had 20 %th year ERA apprentices to make up her engine compliment alone. Believe a lot of naval personnel went to Gibraltar to join ships already sailed from UK to make up compliments.
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Sorry finger typing mistake should read 20 5th year not 20%.