Model Boat Mayhem

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Springer Tugs => Topic started by: dave parker on January 16, 2020, 09:12:48 AM

Title: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 16, 2020, 09:12:48 AM
Well after numerous false starts, distractions, and finally getting my hobby workshop set up, I have made a start on my first springer (first model boat full stop).
See pics below but please make any comments or point out if done wrong?

I do have some questions…
Firstly, can someone explain the principle of how the nuts and washers work on the shaft? They are both lose at moment but do I tighten them? Leaves a bit of slack? Or something else?
Secondly, on the rudder post there is a flat plastic disc at bottom to seal against the hull. My hull isn’t flat so what do I do there?
Also, on the picture you can see that the rudder isn’t pushed right up tight against the underside of the hull. There is a gap.  Is this ok or do I have to push the rudder as far up as it will go tight against the hull?
Thanks

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/16/AF2ED191-8A56-4817-A28E-C0CB45D9CE58.md.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/ZnEfh)

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/16/CE822D59-C029-4197-A81C-B52DCDD289C9.md.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/Znr2X)

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/16/0A48471B-2508-45C0-AB51-5102764F7C29.th.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/ZnQiB)

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/16/BAC03473-19B7-442A-9D62-DEE91556F110.md.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/Znbje)

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/16/3987079D-7B17-41B4-865D-DB9350BEE401.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/Znss4)


Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: raflaunches on January 16, 2020, 12:01:01 PM
Hi Dave


Good start so far.


Regarding the shaft nuts and washers, you need the shaft to be free running but not too much play backwards and forwards. The nuts are primarily used for locking the prop in to the shaft and the coupling on to the shaft. The washers I believe are called thrust washers as they allow the rotary movement to push against.


The rudder looks okay at the height itís currently sitting at, you ideally want the prop wash to flow over the whole rudder to get the best manoeuvrability from a standard rudder.


Regarding the flat disc on your rudder post and how it sits- it look like youíve given yourself a good size block for the rudder post to pass through. Using a drill or a file just change the curved area of hull to flatten it until your rudder post sits upright. You can then seal it with a bit of epoxy or filler.


Hope this helps, Iím sure other members will give their advice too. :-))
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 16, 2020, 12:09:39 PM
Hi raflaunches


Many thanks for your help, all makes sense to me


If I have one nut tight to the prop and one nut right to the coupling there is a good amount of play between the shaft and the tube... {:-{
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: raflaunches on January 16, 2020, 12:27:28 PM
Hi Dave


Iíve just had a closer look at your picture of the prop shaft and the prop itself. By looks of things your threaded portion of your prop shaft is too long for the amount of thread inside your prop. You may have to cut off the excess threaded section to allow your prop to sit closer to the prop shaft tube. Failing that Iíve used washers to take up the slack.


Nick
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 16, 2020, 12:30:37 PM
A locking collar can also come in useful at the inboard end depending on the setup.

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Prop_Shaft_Locking_Collars.html

Colin
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 16, 2020, 12:36:05 PM
So this fills in the gaps and stops the rudder from being able to slip out ?



Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 16, 2020, 02:01:41 PM
Have a look at this:

https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/drivelines/27166

It is an article by Glynn Guest on the Model Boats Website which was written for the 2011 Special Issue that I edited. It tells you pretty much all you want to know about the principles of installing running gear in model boats.

An example drawing is shown below.

Colin

Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: SailorGreg on January 16, 2020, 05:34:38 PM
At the risk of repeating some of what has already been said, can I offer the following -

Prop shaft - first, make sure the threaded section is only just long enough for the prop and a locking nut - you don't want a threaded piece running in the end bearing as it will cause wear and might leak.  Cut off any excess with a hacksaw, then file the rough edges off (and leave a nut on the thread when you cut, so it can be wound off to clear the thread).  Wind a nut down to the bottom of the thread, then screw the prop on as far as you can.  Then (Very Important) tighten the nut hard against the propeller.  Put a washer on the shaft, then slide the shaft into the tube (having added a slug of waterproof grease as you have no oiler on the tube you show).  Then slip a washer on the inboard end of the shaft, then the locking collar that Colin Bishop pointed you to.  Tighten the collar so that there is a barely perceptible movement fore and aft of the shaft, then spin it a few times to make sure it runs freely. It is the locking collar that takes the thrust when you are in reverse.  Then you can add the universal joint between the shaft and the motor.  The UJ should not be subject to any forward or backward forces, all those are taken on the prop shaft tube.

Rudder - it doesn't matter too much if the rudder isn't right up to the hull (although some purists might point out that it works most efficiently when it is), but I suggest you cut off the collar that is supposed to seat on the hull and leave the end of the tube sitting below the hull at the distance you want the rudder to be.  You will have to dispense with the nut that would normally be used to fasten the tube and employ a healthy dollop of epoxy adhesive to glue the threaded portion into the block it passes through.  This will be perfectly watertight, and will stop the rudder riding up if there is a gap between it and the tube.

Hope that all makes sense.  Good luck with your build.

Greg
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Capt Podge on January 16, 2020, 05:48:56 PM
That's a great write up Greg - can I just add to that, use the same grease in the rudder tube as well...  :-)

... oh, and make sure that no epoxy gets inside the tubes either.

Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 16, 2020, 06:07:07 PM
Thanks Greg that is a fantastic write up!


Makes super sense of the prop shaft, it’s been niggling me for a long time!!! I didn’t even think of shortening the threaded part :-))



I like the idea of bonding the plastic rudder tube further down to locate the rudder where I want it.


Like you say as long as it’s fixed solid using the epoxy, even top and bottom, it’s going  to work fine!!!



Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 16, 2020, 06:09:26 PM
Thanks Colin


Is this article available in print anywhere for future reference??
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 16, 2020, 06:37:56 PM
Only if you can find a copy of the printed issue frome sites such as this:

http://magazineexchange.co.uk/cw/model-boats-magazine-summer-2011-issue.html

If you PM me with your email I think I may have a pdf version.

Colin
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 16, 2020, 06:58:03 PM
Thanks Colin


PM sent
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 16, 2020, 07:05:59 PM
Article sent!

Colin
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 19, 2020, 02:56:31 PM


https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/ZWh65 (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/ZWh65)


Bit of progress...
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 19, 2020, 03:08:28 PM
Try again


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/19/AFD78233-9ED9-41FB-9A8B-78D18F6B0635.jpg)

Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Capt Podge on January 19, 2020, 04:11:11 PM
Yep, that's come up crystal clear  :-))


Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 19, 2020, 04:14:55 PM
Excellent
Need more practice posting pics


Anyways, I am making progress with my first build!
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Capt Podge on January 19, 2020, 04:20:52 PM
I am making progress with my first build!


Very neat looking job you're doing as well - I like it  O0


Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 19, 2020, 04:27:08 PM
Thankyou
Not as today as photos make it look but itís something to start from
Filler is a wonderful thing, or will be when I get to that stage
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 19, 2020, 07:17:44 PM
Few more from today....


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/19/222B0B73-16D6-4DDB-8EA3-AF5277CF7197.md.jpg) (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/ZWvt4)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/19/B05FA76F-1F68-4D41-BBDA-D71ADB0DC819.md.jpg) (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/ZWGEf)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/19/E9579E0C-5DCD-4BEF-974C-6962AD924E92.md.jpg) (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/ZWi9v)



Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Taranis on January 19, 2020, 07:21:52 PM
Tidy Dave  :-)
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 20, 2020, 01:13:31 PM
Few questions if that's ok..

1   when fitting a skeg do I just bond it to the outside of the hull? do I need to pin it through the hull???

it will be blended in with filler once dried

2  On the skeg, I am intending on using a triangle of timber above and below the shaft tube, then a full piece either side, sealing in the tube.
But... what would you recommend to use to fill the gaps between the shaft tube and the first timber pieces before covering with the last parts?

3   can anyone recommend a filler to use to iron out all the dings and splits etc in the plywood  and blending prior to paint? I thought about using the household poly filler but it dries very hard and often you can end up sanding through the surrounding wood rather than the filler.

4   can anyone recommend some sanding sealer here in the UK.  I need to invest in some and would like to get some that I know will do the job

5   How important is it to have a lubrication tube added to the shaft tube?  Mine hasn't got one, I have never soldered before and so would like to avoid is possible but not to the detriment of my model



Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Capt Podge on January 20, 2020, 01:55:15 PM
Ref question 5 - found this on Cornwall Model Boats (other suppliers available)


https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=oil%20clamp&PN=Graupner%2dPropshaft%2dOiler%2dfor%2d4mm%2dPropshaft%2dTube%2dG2997_4%2ehtml#SID=438

Also, other sizes available :-))


Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 20, 2020, 02:10:39 PM
Thanks captain Podge


I assume this just clamps round it then you drill through??
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Capt Podge on January 20, 2020, 02:24:10 PM
Yep, but be careful not to drill right through. Once drilled clear the swarf before installing the propshaft  ;)


Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 20, 2020, 03:03:49 PM
Excellent thankyou
I intend on learning how to solder properly but just not on this build, so this has saved me
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: SailorGreg on January 20, 2020, 06:08:38 PM
Coming along nicely Dave.  In answer to your questions -

1.  Yes, just bond to the outside of the hull.  If you have any concerns at all about strength, put a couple of pins through the hull and into the skeg, but a decent glue will normally suffice.

2.  That construction sounds pretty robust.  I assume you will use a polyurethane or epoxy adhesive to glue the skeg to the prop shaft tube, and these can fill most of the gap that might be there between tube and skeg.  Or you can be a bit clever and groove the edges of the two parts of the skeg so they fit closely around the tube.  That isn't as hard as it sounds, 10 minutes with a rat tail file will get you pretty close to a good fit.  When you glue the cheek pieces on, I suggest wood glue for the majority but a strip of epoxy (or whatever) along the line of the prop tube.

3.  I normally just use a wood filler from the DIY shop.  I agree polyfilla probably isn't the best, but any proprietary wood filler will do just fine.

4.  I'm not sure I can recommend a sanding sealer - the container I have is as old as the hills (and I can't remember what it is without going out to the man cave), and is the only one I have ever used, so can't offer any comparison.  But don't overthink it - I suspect whatever you find in your local shop will do just fine.

5.  I haven't got an oiler on any of my boats, but I do use waterproof grease in the shaft tube, and I renew it every year, (or when I remember  :embarrassed: ), and have had no problem with either leaks or excessive wear.  You don't need to fill the whole tube, I use a quick squirt of something like this  (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FULLY-SYNTHETIC-WATERPROOF-MODEL-BOAT-PROPELLER-SHAFT-GREASE-WITH-P-T-F-E/391298994323?hash=item5b1b3cd093:g:s7EAAOxycmBSy2EA)in the wet end of the tube before inserting the prop shaft.  Others I know religiously put oilers on all their boats, so I guess you can take your pick.

Hope that helps you on your way.  Enjoy your build!

Greg
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 21, 2020, 08:37:14 AM
Thanks Greg


I appreciate you taking the time to help.


Am learning from the masters as I go  :}
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 28, 2020, 08:50:41 AM
Update time
I have made good progress, learned a lot, some things I would probably do differently  next time
But open to comments


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/28/AB96A824-5D4F-4C77-99F1-6AD3B52878EC.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/28/58E8EB08-6045-4B60-962A-3146B329ED03.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/28/C6965155-93C5-48D8-9E59-FEA0EBFCDB96.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/28/77070A11-ED69-4D4D-A118-B592440CB4CD.jpg)





Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: SailorGreg on January 28, 2020, 12:56:58 PM
That all looks pretty good to me.  Nice neat woodwork too.  :-))

My only comment is that you have a fairly long length of shaft unsupported inside the boat.  It probably doesn't matter for a Springer, but if you want belt and braces, glue a block of wood under the inboard end of the tube to give extra rigidity.


Greg
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 28, 2020, 02:18:47 PM
Thanks Greg


Itís on the list
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 30, 2020, 10:48:05 AM
So next questions...


1 can anybody recommend me a speed controller for this springer? Obviously itís nothing fancy so doesnít need to be a top of the range one


2 what type of filler would you you to blend the keel in to the hull?  Obviously wood filler isnít good enough particularly at this thickness  but I donít want something that is too hard to sand to shape


Thanks
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 30, 2020, 10:55:33 AM
Ronseal two part wood filler is very easy to use and sand smooth.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ronseal-High-Performance-Wood-Filler/dp/B001GU4DZQ/ref=sr_1_18?adgrpid=57191892390&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmsrxBRDaARIsANyiD1p0iNIh7JoqXuDDzOX9dVJ7tCbVENfSTvoEz9dweQuwUpKWEgmee00aAme5EALw_wcB&hvadid=259048786937&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1006742&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t2&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2458399349746309302&hvtargid=kwd-299442927510&hydadcr=28741_1664620&keywords=ronseal+wood+filler&qid=1580381622&sr=8-18

Colin
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Subculture on January 30, 2020, 11:49:38 AM
Upol fantastic or easy sand, easy one etc. All work well. Halfords or ebay.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on January 30, 2020, 12:38:28 PM
Brilliant thanks


Now, is there a suggested  main on/off switch???
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: SailorGreg on January 30, 2020, 01:35:03 PM
I use an Mtroniks Viper in my springer (and in other boats), and that comes with an on-off switch already there.  You won't need any more than the 15 amp one.  If you get the plug and play version then installation couldn't be easier.  The only thing you might have to do is change the battery and/or the motor connecting plugs, depending on what you plan to use.


Greg
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: coch y bonddu on January 30, 2020, 03:34:38 PM
Upol fantastic or easy sand, easy one etc. All work well. Halfords or ebay.




Thats what i use i work darned good filler forget Isopon p38 Far to hard to rub down.regardless of what anyone tells you and then you got to overcoat it with the above to get rid of pin holes FACT .




Dave
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 30, 2020, 04:17:14 PM
The Upol looks very good but it seems you have to spend £25 or more for a much larger quantity that you would normally need for model boating. Are any smaller pack sizes available?

I find the small Ronseal wood filler cans last me for ages and eventually go off long before I've used even half of the contents.

Colin
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: DaveM on January 30, 2020, 06:15:51 PM
The Upol looks very good but it seems you have to spend £25 or more for a much larger quantity that you would normally need for model boating. Are any smaller pack sizes available?
I find the small Ronseal wood filler cans last me for ages and eventually go off long before I've used even half of the contents.
Some folk seem to need more filler than others, Colin. I've used both the Isopon and Ronseal products, applied sparingly and smoothed out with a wet finger. Either works for me although. as you observe, the shelf life is limited. Epoxy and micro-balloons is my preferred method these days.
DaveM
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 30, 2020, 06:48:36 PM
Dave,

Yes, horses for courses. There is a trade off between buying in bulk on the basis that most of it will end up being wasted or use the more specialised modelling products which may look initially more expensive but actually cost less as you end up using most of the material within its use by date.

I've always felt that if you do a decent build then filler is just needed to smooth off the inevitable minor imperfections rather than compensate for major unintended cavities!

Colin
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: coch y bonddu on January 30, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Guys ill let you into a little secret here, the tin of easy lite thats in my shed at the moment albeit it is nearly finished is around 4 years old YES you did read that right 4 years old and is as usable as it was when i first opened it.


How do i keep it in good condition...simple really ...open it up and get the amount you need quickly and put the lid back on it properly as simple as that NO tricks at all.


Yes sometimes I have to stir the resin back into it especially if not used for a while...such a hardship !!!!!!!


Dave

Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 01, 2020, 07:07:28 PM
Ronseal 2 part woodfiller is amazing!


Thanks everyone


Now on to speed controllers....


Any alternatives to a viper 15 before I order one?
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Subculture on February 01, 2020, 08:42:25 PM
Upol Dolphin glaze is available in smaller quantities. It's sold as a stopper, so a bit more runny than their other fillers. In some ways that makes it more suitable for a lot of model work.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 02, 2020, 10:29:39 AM
Thanks to SailorGreg I have decided to order a Mtroniks viper 15 speed controller.


Upon reading the instructions it says to keep as far away from receiver as possible.


As you can see from my pics I have a shelf that I intended on putting everything, but this will mean the speed controller is next to the receiver.


Is this a problem?


Should I move the servo in to the middle of the shelf and have the controller and receiver each side?


Any suggestions?


Thanks
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 02, 2020, 10:52:40 AM
Personally I would go with the Viper 25. I have known of Viper 15 units giving up when used with 540 motors that theoretically don't get near 15 amps but probably do when sudden acceleration is applied.

If you look at the Mtronics website they often have units used for "testing" at a good price & they still have a guarantee.
https://www.mtroniks.net/prod/ex-demo/viper_Marine_25_ex_demo.htm
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 02, 2020, 11:01:06 AM
Thanks Tug Fanstic but have already ordered it now
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: SailorGreg on February 02, 2020, 04:18:22 PM
Now just go steady with that throttle lever!  %%   And Mtroniks as well as most wise men recommend fitting a fuse between the battery and ESC so that any untoward spikes don't burn out your electrics.  Many folk use a car blade fuse, either in a holder or with female spade terminals pushed onto the fuse contacts, like this -

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/02/P1060803.jpg)


(That's not my Springer, but the fuse was easy to photograph in that boat.  And at the risk of tempting fate, I have never (yet) blown a fuse on my boats.)

If you can move the receiver and ESC to opposite sides of the boat that would be good, although if you have already fitted the bits then I would give it a thorough test on dry land to see if you get any odd behaviour.  If possible, get someone to either watch the boat or wiggle the controls (throttle up, down, rudder left, right, throttle change while turning and any other combination you can think of) while you watch the boat so the transmitter can be at a realistic distance.  Tests with the Tx right next to the Rx are not to be trusted!

And remember - so far you're just dipping a toe into the fun to be had with model boats!!   O0

Enjoy your build

Greg
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 02, 2020, 05:14:12 PM
Thanks Greg


Yes a lot to learn, just trying to head off in the right direction


Still nervous  {:-{
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 02, 2020, 05:19:33 PM

........................Still nervous  {:-{

Good. It means that you are being careful & making sure that you are doing things right. Your workmanship shows that you are.

Keep going as you are and you will surely have a model to be proud of.   
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 09:35:07 AM
Thanks Tug Fanatic
Itís the wiring next before I put the top on
And I donít know anything about wiring really so need to do some reading
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: DaveM on February 03, 2020, 10:30:47 AM
Thanks Tug Fanatic
Itís the wiring next before I put the top on
And I donít know anything about wiring really so need to do some reading
This might help answer some of your questions http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054 (http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054)
Also here's a diagram of what I think your installation might look like. You can remove the fuse to isolate the batteries for transport and storage
DaveM
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 12:55:00 PM
Thanks Dave M
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Gardener on February 03, 2020, 01:02:38 PM
diagram with on off switch
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Gardener on February 03, 2020, 01:03:34 PM
You will need to add fuse diagram does not show one ...
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 01:11:49 PM
Thanks gardener
Fuse as per Dave M
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 01:12:57 PM
Dave M
On your diagram is the switch on the speed controller the main on/off switch for the boat or do I need to add another??
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: DaveM on February 03, 2020, 02:54:21 PM
The diagram is complete as far as is necessary. If you really want to add another switch it should go in the positive line between the batteries and the fuse and be able to carry 15A. https://www.componentshop.co.uk/high-current-standard-toggle-switches.html (https://www.componentshop.co.uk/high-current-standard-toggle-switches.html)
The small switch on the Viper merely switches on the power to the receiver.

DM
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 02:57:50 PM
Ok thankyou
I was if the opinion I should have a main on/off switch that controls all power to the boat, but obviously itís only what I have found through examples???
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 03:06:43 PM
And can anyone recommend what specification I need for the wiring to and from battery etc???
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 03, 2020, 04:12:17 PM
And can anyone recommend what specification I need for the wiring to and from battery etc???

This will be fine although you could probably get away with slightly less, eg 20awg, but for the difference in cost why bother?
https://www.componentshop.co.uk/18awg-silicone-cable-wire.html (https://www.componentshop.co.uk/18awg-silicone-cable-wire.html)

Note that smaller awg number = thicker cable & more current carrying capacity. eg 20awg is rated for 11 amps whilst 18swg is 15amps and 16swg is 22amps.

Tips: Do colour code your wiring and do not use Tamiya type battery connectors. Personally I like Deans connectors.

Get some colour matched heatshrink as you will need it

Always remember when deciding which end of a connector to solder to what that you never have the exposed prongs live when the connector is not connected
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 07:46:18 PM
Thanks for all this help guys
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 03, 2020, 07:57:42 PM
Tonightís update is regarding my drive line.


Below are some pics of how I intend to install it  but would like approval :}


Starting at prop end, there is the prop screwed on to the shaft nipping up to the nut, then the thrust washer.
This goes up against the bearing on the tube.


The other end has a thrust washer, then a locking collar which is fastened to a non threaded part of the shaft.


Then a little bit of thread before the nut which is nipped up to the coupling.


There is a small gap between the coupling and the motor.


Is this sounding right?


I want expecting to need a locking collar but as it turns out, due to the length of thread on each end and then location of the parts I do need one.


There will be a very small, less than 1mm movement from for and aft movement of the prop shaft.


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/03/25FE089B-AF19-4144-8208-0E45CCA546D6.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/03/40C13EB9-840C-49D8-8CB6-5D9A6C7E091B.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/03/5E95F133-716A-4E52-9A46-7568C65B73C2.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/03/878DF5CC-1DC9-4092-B889-F0BECA74BEE5.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/03/594CEC59-8989-4E31-80D4-93C3BE2C5BF8.jpg)



Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 04, 2020, 10:42:20 AM
Have a look at the attached crop of one of your photos.

The thrust washer on the propshaft end bearing does not look square with an equal gap all the way round. It might be an optical/ camera illusion but it should be square.

End play should be a lot less than 1mm. The idea is for the absolute minimum of end play that does not result in extra friction. If you have nearly 1mm play then you are putting nearly 1mm load onto a bearing somewhere else (probably the motor bearings) which is better avoided.

I suspect that you will be changing that 30mm 3 blade plastic prop pretty quickly but it is fine for shakedown runs.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 04, 2020, 11:03:02 AM
Thanks tug fanatic


Itís an optical illusion on the picture
It is/will be square on the bearing, these parts were just rested in place for photos.
And yes will reduce the 1mm of play to pretty much no play at all


What is wrong with the propeller?

Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 04, 2020, 11:42:30 AM


...........................What is wrong with the propeller?


Absolutely nothing if it moves the boat well enough to satisfy you.

The standard Springer prop is a 40mm 3 blade brass prop which I have always thought was a bit too much for a standard low rpm 540 motor on 6v but it will do as a comparison.

Your prop is 30mm diameter and probably has a pitch of around 16mm. This gives a cylinder volume of 113 (volume of a cylinder = 3.14 x radius squared (15 x 15) x 16mm pitch) and shoves water out the back at around 0.4mph per 1000rpm. 
https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Graupner-3-Bladed-Propeller-RH-30mm-M4-G2308_30.html#SID=334 (https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Graupner-3-Bladed-Propeller-RH-30mm-M4-G2308_30.html#SID=334)

The standard 40mm brass 3 blade has a pitch of around 41mm which has a cylinder volume of around 500 and moves water at 0.9mph per 1000rpm.
https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/40mm-M4-Threaded-4-Blade-R-H-Brass-A-Type-Propeller-RAB147_13.html#SID=1220 (https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/40mm-M4-Threaded-4-Blade-R-H-Brass-A-Type-Propeller-RAB147_13.html#SID=1220)

You therefore have around a quarter of the water shifted per rpm of the prop and water moving at less than half the speed with the advantage of a much lower load on the motor. Whether this is enough is very much up to you and you won't know until you try it on the pond and see. If it isn't then the remedy is neither expensive nor difficult to achieve.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 04, 2020, 11:48:10 AM
Wow ok thankyou


I am in no position to know these things yet so itís food that you do!


Will have a review but as you say, easily changed
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 05, 2020, 10:42:38 AM
Is it usual to have to cut off the connectors on the end of a viper 15 speed controller in order to connect to sla batteries??


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/05/04B46042-7464-4AD1-93BB-2955985F7F8E.jpg)
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: DaveM on February 05, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
The alternative is to make up a battery connecting lead with the spade connectors at the battery end and a matching Tamiya type for the ESC-end. However Tamiya connectors aren't popular as they have been known to make poor contact and fail after a while. I favour the Deans or XT30 types from Component-Shop.
DaveM
 
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 05, 2020, 11:17:47 AM
Thanks Dave M


I thought that would be a good way of having a battery disconnect for removal, when not in use and transportation too
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 05, 2020, 11:43:53 AM
Do we think that using 14awg wire for power to match the 14awg on the speed co troller is a good idea rather than using 18awg??
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 05, 2020, 12:27:36 PM
Do we think that using 14awg wire for power to match the 14awg on the speed co troller is a good idea rather than using 18awg??

Going thicker never hurt.

You are using 4amp sealed lead acid batteries which will be very unhappy if asked to deliver more than say 8 amps even if you connect both in parallel. You are using an Esc that will do nasty things if you ask it to deliver more than 15 amps and you have a motor that has a stall current of 10 amps.

18awg silicon cable is rated for a continuous 16amps and 14awg for a continuous 32amps. 14awg will not hurt but it is unnecessary for any component that you are using.
 

PS How powerful is your soldering iron?
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 05, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
Thanks again Tug Fanatic


A great source of facts n figures


I just felt uncomfortable going from 14awg wire on the equipment to 18 or 20 awg (thinner) wire without knowing it was ok to do so.....


Not much difference in price, and as you say, going thicker doesnít hurt


Not ďnecessaryĒ but no harm in doing
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 05, 2020, 12:46:13 PM
The only disadvantage of going too thick on the wiring is that there is more metal to heat (wire & connector) for soldering which requires a more powerful soldering iron.

I am not sure if 18awg to 14awg will make any difference but bear it in mind. One of the most common mistakes people make when soldering is to try and use an iron that isn't powerful enough to get the heat in quickly enough.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 06, 2020, 09:57:26 AM
Right, made some good progress last night


Now need look at how people do windows.


I have clear plastic to use for the actual windows, and have cut out openings. Jumped the fun a bit I think


I had the idea of in inner frame larger than the opening, in to which the plastic can be fitted but looking for ideas from you guys...  :-)
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 06, 2020, 10:17:15 AM
A little information would help.

1. What is the material that you are fitting windows into & how thick is it?
2. What sort of windows - a picture?

PS I hate windows!!! Mine never satisfy me.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: DaveM on February 06, 2020, 10:28:06 AM
This method uses 0.5mm styrene for the frames and 0.7mm clear acetate sheet for the windows. The window panes are cut to fit exactly into the aperture while the frames "bridge" the gap. You could fit the frames either inside or outside. For adhesive I use very thin double-sided tape.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 06, 2020, 10:45:06 AM
Sorry yes...


3mm ply cabin walls.


I have cut out the two front windows but jumped the gun and am not happy with the lines so am thinking I may laminate it with 1mm ply that I can cut straight with a Knife.


I was going to have a ledge on the inside in to which to fit the clear plastic/perspex bur as a said am not happy with the cut outs...

Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 06, 2020, 12:16:49 PM
Your 3mm sides make windows difficult as you have such a thick edge to hide.

I would also be aware of the c of g implications if you superstructure is anything other than very low.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 06, 2020, 12:55:08 PM
What thickness of timber should I have used for the cabin and structures??
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Capt Podge on February 06, 2020, 01:16:33 PM
You could try cutting your 'glass' (acetate) slightly oversized then build the framework over it, 1mm wide should suffice.
Alternatively, use thin plastic strip for the frames.

You could do this on both the inner and outer of your cabin if you have access.

Regards,
Ray.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 06, 2020, 01:52:28 PM
What thickness of timber should I have used for the cabin and structures??


My choice is 1.5mm ply or 1mm Styrene and possibly even thinner high up but you might be perfectly OK with what you have unless you are planning a very high superstructure. It is easiest to paint the cut window edges before glazing if they will be seen afterwards. I find soft matt black/ dark grey takes the eye from a multitude of sins.

Tinted glazing helps remove the need for detail in the wheelhouse area and wheelhouse windows are normally tilted top out which also helps.


Remember that weight is more of a problem the higher you have it and that weight is much easier to add than lightness. Cruise liners are very aware of c of g issues. 
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 06, 2020, 01:53:06 PM
Yeah sounds good


Am now thinking about re making the cabin out of the 1.5mm ply I have and can strengthen inside corners if need to.


Less weight and easier for windows


Would 1.5mm suffice?
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 06, 2020, 02:13:17 PM
1.5mm ply should be fine & yes reinforcing corners is a very good idea but there is no need for massive girders!

How large a superstructure are you planning?
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 06, 2020, 02:28:10 PM
There are a few pics of the detail drawings at the beginning of this thread (I havenít got them here with me)


Just a typical springer really
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 06, 2020, 04:32:06 PM
There are a few pics of the detail drawings at the beginning of this thread (I havenít got them here with me)


Just a typical springer really


OK. The "platform" will be fine in your 3mm but I would go thinner for the wheelhouse & you don't want cast iron (heavy) funnels! The thinner wheelhouse material has more to do with ease of construction & what it will look like than c of g although there are members here who know much more about Springer performance than I ever will.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 06, 2020, 07:54:34 PM
Sounds ideal plan
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 11, 2020, 08:09:50 AM
So... receiver
I am using a receiver as below and the manual says to keep the Ariel horizontal.


The Ariel is only about 25mm long and I wouldíve expected it to come up through the cabin and out the roof for good reception?


What would you guys do??


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/11/B6BA0184-B233-47FB-ADA9-3D98E6662552.jpg)

Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 11, 2020, 08:32:54 AM
The length of the aerial is critical to the operation of the receiver. Don't cut off or add bits!

Keep the receiver as high as you can (on a shelf at deck level in the cut out?) and certainly above water level. As far as is practical keep it away from the esc and motor. I know that this sounds impossible but do the best that you can.

The advantage of a model boat is that you will normally operate within a couple of hundred feet of the transmitter whilst in a plane you can be much further away.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 11, 2020, 08:59:01 AM
Yeah I understand, and as I thought but wanted to check


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/01/28/17B26F05-1227-4351-8410-88AFB19ADBE0.jpg)


This is the expected location of the receiver
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 11, 2020, 09:18:44 AM
 :-))


Will the batteries lie flat on their backs rather than on an edge? It would make the c of g lower which is always a good thing.

 
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 11, 2020, 09:45:43 AM
No they are too large
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: JimG on February 11, 2020, 12:29:29 PM
So... receiver
I am using a receiver as below and the manual says to keep the Ariel horizontal.


The Ariel is only about 25mm long and I wouldíve expected it to come up through the cabin and out the roof for good reception?


What would you guys do??


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/11/B6BA0184-B233-47FB-ADA9-3D98E6662552.jpg)
If the transmitter has a folding aerial than most tend to use it in the horizontal position. (Many of the lower priced ones have an internal aerial which tend to be in the handle and therefore horizontal.) The signal from a horizontal transmitter aerial will give the best results with a horizontal receiver aerial. If you use the transmitter aerial in the vertical position then fit the receiver with the aerial vertical. As 2.4 GHz signals are absorbed by water then keep the aerial as high in the boat as possible, try building a platform to bring it above deck level and inside the superstructure.   

Jim
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 14, 2020, 07:11:40 PM
Few updated pictures for review and comment


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/14/C7A638CA-D492-4FF6-A4EA-83AC86F9EA32.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/14/63295771-6895-4F4A-8AD7-A30D0C1B10E9.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/14/2AB6B0EF-92BA-40E2-97E0-2E8247AE3A62.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/14/624496D8-732F-4728-92A0-CA919F388E92.jpg)


(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/02/14/EB110BCC-44BA-4143-95CB-8357910D3089.jpg)





Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Gardener on February 15, 2020, 10:01:21 AM
Coming along well !

Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: Tug Fanatic on February 15, 2020, 10:08:24 AM
That is looking really good. You model very nicely.
Title: Re: Finally geting somewhere
Post by: dave parker on February 15, 2020, 12:24:29 PM
Thanks for the comments


Am really enjoying it


Next to paint inside just for cleanliness and then on to the pushers