Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: dillinger 04 on February 07, 2020, 04:30:52 AM

Title: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on February 07, 2020, 04:30:52 AM
Hello Everyone


Seeking advice I have set plans for small steam powered boat.
Question best wood to build from, was thinking of baltic birch, ply design is plank on frame.
Deck, and bottom, and bulkheads, to be made from 1/4 sheets, sides made from 1/8 cut into section very bottom side made from laminated 1/6 and 1/8 bent around frame . Designed for balsa. I am not a really big fan of do to its soft property dents easy. Would a small model be to heavy if made entirety from baltic birch ply. Is it best to use a mix of woods to build such as Alder wood and perhaps Maple for it's bending property or Oak . Any help would be appreciated
David


 





Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: grendel on February 07, 2020, 07:39:59 AM
I use lime wood scavanged from wooden ikea blinds for my planking stock, dirt cheap at boot fairs and strips into 12mm planks nicely, it bends well when steamed and has good grain with no knots.
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: Davy1 on February 07, 2020, 08:44:04 AM
You would be better posting in another section (not really submarine R & D.)


David
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: chas on February 07, 2020, 09:23:43 AM
A lot depends on what type of hull you're making. You need to end up with a hull that can take the weight of your plant and gear. Eg, a tug hull of say 30 inches will displace, a lot more than a fine hull like a destroyer. Then there's the centre of gravity to think about, steam boats often have a higher one than an electric model. If the superstructure is substantial too the model will not be stable and might capsize. Shallow draft hulls are another problem again and need to be worked out carefully. If this were my project, I would begin by weighing the plant and gear, with water in the boiler so you know what you're dealing with. If you come back on here with the hull type and the weight of the installation we can help better. You'll also get better advice on what to build it from. The fact that balsa was originally specified makes me wonder if the original needed to be lightly built to sail properly.
Chas

Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: tonyH on February 07, 2020, 11:01:44 AM
I assume that the thicknesses you quote are for the balsa in which case using ply or anything else such as lime would muck up the measurements totally. It sounds a bit like a GG type, so plank on frame is a very loose description.As Chas noted, lets see the animal and then we could help properly :-))
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on February 12, 2020, 05:05:01 PM
Hello everyone


Thank you for responding to my post appreciated update the design of hull working from old Glynn Guest
Beadle hull - power plant total approximate weight less than a pound small scale .
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: tonyH on February 13, 2020, 09:37:21 AM
Hi David,

Does the steam plant weight include the weight of water and/or fuel?
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: RST on February 13, 2020, 10:36:49 AM
Is this what "puffin" in modelboats mag was based on?  Theres a good write-up in the online articles section. I found it via google websearch. That author fitted a small steam plant also.
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on February 13, 2020, 04:44:29 PM
Hello every one


Thank you for respond to my post appreciated, are you referring to the article on Rig Swinson
his version of the Clyde - Puffin, in Model boats, that he built utilizing the same plans Beadle hull
Looks like he used plywood to build his . The approximate weight does include the water, and fuel .



Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: chas on February 13, 2020, 11:46:36 PM
I'm confused at the weight of the steam engine and boiler you quote. What on earth is it? By comparison the smallest Mamod unit weighs 2.5 pounds empty and around 3 pounds filled.
Chas

Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on February 14, 2020, 04:49:59 AM

Hello Do you happen to know much water the smallest Mamod, boiler holds in milliliters ?
then I might be able to try to do a comparison, on this, show how small the boilers are to- Mamod
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: chas on February 14, 2020, 10:10:35 AM
80 to 100 mls if my ancient brain is remembering correctly.
Chas

Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on February 26, 2020, 03:26:18 AM
Update the boilers hold a max of 1 cubic inch of water, or in ML looks like 16.3871


Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: chas on February 26, 2020, 09:30:35 AM
That would be about 2 or 3 thimbles full of water.  What size is the boiler and engine?

Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: tonyH on February 26, 2020, 01:46:37 PM
It's as much water as you'd get in the tubes of a pop-pop %% ?
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on February 26, 2020, 05:43:42 PM
Yah pretty small


This might help explain things a little better while the boilers can handle a bit more water in volume,
the engines are only 1/4 bore x 1/4 stroke so in design 1 cubic inch of water is best to run the engines so they do not become water logged? fuel and water balanced to run out at the same time . Measurement I can get
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: tonyH on February 26, 2020, 07:08:08 PM
Any chance of a photo of the setup?
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on March 20, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Hello everyone


Update  attach image of power plant 
 I now have the plans printed out of the boat was viewing the plans, decided to go with 1/4 balsa as this is what the plans were designed for originally, along with light ply, for super structure, frame parts, which are very simple
in design . Question for those that have worked with balsa wood, for model boat building or others that might have good advice . Sanding and shaping the hull bottom parts and deck which are made from 1/4 sheets. Two parts with a seam down the middle glue sections together to make hole . I plan to use spray mount, to stick templets to balsa sheets rough cut out a perimeter via my scroll saw, then sand to exact templet shape deck and hull bottom . This is where I am not sure what is the best way to go about sanding to get best results, nice clean look to the parts . I though of a Proxxon disc sander, but perhaps might be to aggressive for balsa? then I though maybe make a sanding jig out of MDF board
L shaped attach fine sand paper via spray mount, to the back wall of sanding jig then attach handles temporary glue them to the parts for better control while sanding and keeping the edges square ? The deck of this design is like a Clyde Puffer, kind of long oval shaped, which I think might present it's own changes while sanding any help would be greatly appreciated David
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: frazer heslop on March 21, 2020, 01:28:56 PM
Is that Les Propers design? If so on his youtube site he gives some of the plants details when filling it for a video
I pinched a few of his ideas for a small Puffer build
You can see a rough video of my plant below
Les used Balsa and tin plate or alloy for his Vital Spark build and there are some free plans knocking about for it although you have to size them to youre needs She needs to be around 12 inches in old money
Also have a look on you tube for Steamer Edge he has a build up that may answer a few of youre questions
https://www.youtube.com/user/SteamerEdge (https://www.youtube.com/user/SteamerEdge)
https://youtu.be/Q7YVHNhRKUc

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4GGuIXonjUGUeIlY1h0_VA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4GGuIXonjUGUeIlY1h0_VA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURne7s7u-8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURne7s7u-8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcorLIJVdU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcorLIJVdU)
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on March 21, 2020, 04:54:07 PM
Hello  Frazer Heslop
Thank you for replying to my post! appreciated.
Yes indeed it is Leslie Proper, and his very nicely put to gather book, that I was lucky enough to have purchased form him, which he may still have for sale if anyone is interested amazing book! not know of anyone else publishing such a unique book, design for miniature model
steam . His design unitizes the bread and butter, technique method of building, while the vintage Beadle hull is designed for plank on frame method, which is what I have. Perhaps the best way to achieve a nice clean look to the deck and hull bottom shapes is to cut a perimeter around the paper patterns, once they are attached to the balsa wood sheeting .Then assemble all parts and put the model together sand to final shape before hull side section sheeting goes on.
I do have some very nice soft back sanding sticks by Infini models 800 grit .
 
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: frazer heslop on March 21, 2020, 05:11:52 PM
I have done a few bread and butter hulls as well as plank on frame
When carving/sanding the bread and butter hull just make a negative of the formers and use them as a guide
blending in .
Iv not got a copy of his book but have been tempted a few times . Iv not come across anyone else selling books on miniature steam boats .
For my small boats I tend to find larger designs and print them to the size I need .The engines and boilers tend to be a bit of this design and a bit of another cobbled together. Les kindly sent a set of drawings for his single cylinder engine and it looks a nice wee build and like him I often use K&S tube for cylinders as its very accurate and round.
Do you have a pic of the finished boat
cheers
frazer
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on March 21, 2020, 06:10:33 PM
Hello Frazer


Thank you for responding again here I have a pic of the plans you can see the perimeter I drew out in pencil around the actual templet in plans, for give me I am not the best at taking photos.
I will try to show a pic of the original finished model.   Pic seams to have gotten cut off a bit ?
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on March 21, 2020, 06:42:10 PM
Hi Frazer


Are you referring to the negative as an actual templet to make first use that to follow
when sanding and shaping ? preferably out of a harder wood like Basswood or Alder perhaps temporary glue or double stick tape to the parts used as a guide .
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: frazer heslop on March 21, 2020, 09:37:36 PM
Hi, that looks a bit like the boat SteamerEdge built
On drawings they show a cross section of the hull a bit like a sliced loaf of bread these canbe used as the formers for plank on frame . So instead of cutting out the former it would be the bit left after youve cut out the former .Along the hull drawing is the position of the former often called the station
You can also build bread and butter using the buttock lines as in along the length of the hull
So you would hold the template to the hull at the station to see what needs to be removed
This may help rather than my confused description
The templates can be made from what ever is to hand cardboard/plywood nothing special or expensive
https://www.building-model-boats.com/bread-and-butter-model-boat.html (https://www.building-model-boats.com/bread-and-butter-model-boat.html)
http://www.themodelshipwright.com/construction-articles/building-a-bread-and-butter-solid-hull-ship-model/ (http://www.themodelshipwright.com/construction-articles/building-a-bread-and-butter-solid-hull-ship-model/)
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on March 22, 2020, 04:19:04 PM
Hi Frazer


I have an idea cut out patterns out of 1/4 MDF sheet, use a scroll saw, or band saw to cut most of the bulk off
sand to final shape, via spindle sander would be best if not a simple sanding jig. Trace out your patterns with felt pen
on the sheets to be cut again cut off bulk, place your pattern on top via double stick tape to the parts to be cut out.
Then get a flush trim router bit, the bearing rides on top along the templet, cutting out the parts underneath. I do have access
to a router shaper table, this totally just dawned on me!! An age old way of making all parts the same with good results .
If you do not have access to a router shaper table,  flush trim router would probably work as well .I picked 1/4 MDF as it is cheap and look like it cuts easy, and sands nice good material for pattern making lots on youtube on this Note- caution from what I under stand alway run with the grain of the wood to prevent tear out of the parts from the router bit.   
 
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: frazer heslop on March 22, 2020, 08:14:29 PM
Hi,seems a bit overkill for this simple soul
Cut the formers from stiff card with a sharp knife
Cut the bread sections with a coping saw
Along the keels line tap in pins at each station making sure they are square and use these to check the shape with the former
With Balsa wood it will sand easily. Its not a scale hull so as long as both sides are the same it wont make a great deal of difference
When buying balsa you can get a harder grade
Is this the wee boat you intend to build
https://youtu.be/nFCvNxCJPIo
cheers
frazer
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on March 22, 2020, 08:52:41 PM
Hi Frazer


The plans I have which I plan to use is the old Beadle hull designed by Glynn Guest, tried to show a pic but image was to large need to be reduced
It is the same hull design that Rig Swinson used like a Clyde Puffin. I plan to use one of Leslie power plants in the book
I have the plans reduced to make smaller . I though why not do it this way seeing I have equipment in hand my brother also has a spindle sander in his wood shop .   
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: frazer heslop on March 22, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
OK , I can see what you are building
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/puffin/525
At the end of the day use what ever you are happy with , I tend to do things by hand out of choice  although I use machines to cut the timber to size and a lathe to make the engines.
What size are building it ?
cheers
Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: dillinger 04 on March 22, 2020, 10:13:08 PM
Here is the boat off the plans going to try building it under 17 inches I like the original deck configuration .

Title: Re: Materials best wood for small steam boat
Post by: frazer heslop on March 22, 2020, 10:31:18 PM
Hi. Les built his puffer at 13inches it will depend upon the plant you decide to use as he  has twin and triple cylinder plants
Iv not got the book so have no idea as to his boiler designs for the multi cylinder plants 
I have down loaded the  Vital Spark plans from the john_tom site but have not started on the hull .It will be bread and butter once I get round to it
Im currently making a simple plant for a small launch and then I will build a plant for Vic Smeeds River Princess
This plant will be single cylinder double acting with a self start mech and the boiler will be from a T fitting to give more water space.Gas fired by a poker style burner. I have experimented with the T fittings for 16mm loco building based on the Cracker design and found they give a better run time and the boilers although very simple have a good head of stem
Les Propers designs seem to be pretty good and he has a good following
Good luck with youre build. As to building techniques as long as you end up with a good hull its what ever you are happy with.
cheers
frazer