Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: SteveH on June 13, 2020, 04:51:26 pm
-
Calling all model Thames barge sailors! Please have a look at the photos attached.
I bought this model last year on EBay from a chap in Clevedon , Somerset. Unfortunately when I went to collect it he was in hospital and I didn't get the chance to talk about it with him. ( Who knows, he may use this forum?) .
Anyway, it is built on a plastic moulded hull and is about 33" length overall including rudder and bowsprit. I think it may be an HFM kit, because I don't know any other plastic barge hulls of this size, which would make it perhaps twenty years old or more? Can anyone confirm?
I sailed it a couple of times "as was", then I did a bit of work on it - some repainting, detailing, added a boat and davits and crew figures ( the mate having a fag on the mainhatch is 1:35 Russian tank crew!), and put new 2.4 r/c in it. Then Covid struck, but I should soon be able to get it back on the lake at Oxford.
Question for anyone sailing this size of barge ... I can see that the two white jibs are not correct for some reason, can anyone give me a possible reason why? The upper one seems to have been fitted upside down and is on a stay that goes halfway up the topmast instead of to the top. Similarly the lower one is stayed to the bottom of the mainmast/topmast doubling when it should ( in full scale practice ) be stayed to the top of the doubling. I have a theory about this; as rigged, the sail plan is lower, and I wonder if this was done to reduce the chance of the model being knocked flat by gusts of wind or when gybeing. It did seem a bit prone to this and would sometimes put its lee rail down to the water, a bit worrying when the hatches are not sealed watertight. I think the barge would originally have been sailed on Clevedon lake, which is right next to the sea and I would guess gets a fair bit of wind.
I would like to make new jib(s) and rig them authentically, but I don't want to sink it!Comments, advice and shared experience would be welcomed.
-
Hello, I think the HFM Thames Barge was smaller than your dimensions but you are not wrong.
Before the kit came out Harvey prouced a black plastic hull of about your size. It was in two vertical sections. I think the HFM kit is to 1 : 48 whereas most of the large ones are at 1 : 24 scale. This hull fell between the two, but there are lots of figures in this scale.
I bought a hull which came with Lee boards as well for the princely sum of £2.50 at an exibition, I think he was pleased to clear them! I never got round to it but passed the plastic hull and lee boards on to a friend who built a good model of her.
I asked Harvey if she was modelled on a particular barge and he said it was Venta. (I have the plans for her).
I am sure others can help with the sailing characteristics.
regards
Roy
-
Mastman sells different sized thames barges maybe one of his ????
Dave
-
I am no expert, but when I lived in the UK on the thames I saw many barges come past and to me the Jib looks correct inc the colour, but as I say....
You have a nice model there and I am sure there are many on the forum who will know much more than me. You could also look a the Model Barge forum (SMBO I think)
-
Hello, I think the HFM Thames Barge was smaller than your dimensions but you are not wrong.
Before the kit came out Harvey prouced a black plastic hull of about your size. It was in two vertical sections. I think the HFM kit is to 1 : 48 whereas most of the large ones are at 1 : 24 scale. This hull fell between the two, but there are lots of figures in this scale.
I bought a hull which came with Lee boards as well for the princely sum of £2.50 at an exibition, I think he was pleased to clear them! I never got round to it but passed the plastic hull and lee boards on to a friend who built a good model of her.
I asked Harvey if she was modelled on a particular barge and he said it was Venta. (I have the plans for her).
I am sure others can help with the sailing characteristics.
regards 1
Roy
Thanks for your interest. My hull is 27inches b.p., and given a typical barge legth of 80-85feet b.p. that looks most like 1:35 to tie it down to the nearest popular modelling scale. The skipper at the wheel is a modified 1:40 scale German navy sailor and he is a bit on the small side ( malnourishment!) The 1:35 mate looks a better fit. The barge hull is black plastic and has a plastic moulded deck, cabin top and hatches. If the HFM kit was 1:48 that would give a hull length of around 20-21 inches. That seems a bit small to me for a sailing model but I know that people do sail them okay.
I can't seem to find a working website for AMBO anymore, anyone know if it folded?
-
Hello Steve you have a PM. Just check your messages at the top in the blue bar and click messages.
kind regards
Roy
-
Steve...I am sure are aware there are quite a few videos of Thames Sailing Barges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0JdKxU8JJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0JdKxU8JJM)
Some now have an auxiliary motor, a few still sail only
One comment repeated is that they could be sailed by a Man & a Boy..........[including the explanation of the majority of men involved in WWI enlistments, so the 2nd person was much younger {below enlistment age}]
The dropping of one of the Lee Boards appears to be semi automatic and functioned by a change in tack.....with a boom in deck level athwart ships just behind the main Gaff Boom?...so in a breeze, one board is always down?.........then on berthing winched up by the Gaff Boom hand winch
Not sure from your photograph?.....is the rudder blade extended in both depth and length?
I have read that a turn of the Century build was a paddle wheeler, but I cannot find any photograph of this
Looking forward to reading your posts on this
Derek
-
Steve...I am sure are aware there are quite a few videos of Thames Sailing Barges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0JdKxU8JJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0JdKxU8JJM)
Some now have an auxiliary motor, a few still sail only
One comment repeated is that they could be sailed by a Man & a Boy..........[including the explanation of the majority of men involved in WWI enlistments, so the 2nd person was much younger {below enlistment age}]
The dropping of one of the Lee Boards appears to be semi automatic and functioned by a change in tack.....with a boom in deck level athwart ships just behind the main Gaff Boom?...so in a breeze, one board is always down?.........then on berthing winched up by the Gaff Boom hand winch
Not sure from your photograph?.....is the rudder blade extended in both depth and length?
I have read that a turn of the Century build was a paddle wheeler, but I cannot find any photograph of this
Looking forward to reading your posts on this
Derek
Derek, thanks for your interest.
Having been born on the Essex coast I have always had an interest in Thames barges, and in recent years, with the responsibilities of raising children behind me, I have had the opportunity to do some sailing on those that are preserved each summer. A series of races is held each year, and they are great fun, the nautical version of truck racing. Several 90ft vessels, nearly 100 tons each and setting up to 5,000sq. ft of sail, all converging on a mark buoy at the same time, can be exhilarating to say the least!
Leeboards are certainly not automatic, apart from dropping to the lowered position under their own weight of over a ton. They have to be winched back up again by crab winches which are very low to the deck and hence hard work on the back. When tacking, the lee board is dropped and the weather board raised each time and the barge "leans" against the lee board . In trade, when tacking up a narrow creek, both boards might have been left lowered to save work. Most (all?) model barges have additional fin keels with a lead bulb to keep them stiff or they would be unsailable, the leeboards then become redundant detail and are both raised.
Model barge rudders are extended as the scale rudder would be ineffective, and I think most, like mine, have a forward extension to balance the rudder and reduce load on the steering servo.
I find myself in the odd position of having a fair idea of knowing how a full size Thames barge is sailed, but not knowing much about the sailing characteristics of model barges, hence I am trying to pick other folks brains as I would rather not learn the hard way!
-
Hi maybe at least 10 or so years ago we had a club outing on the Barge called Hydrogen it easily accomodated our coachload. I understand that this barge was a Coastal Barge and of slightly larger dimensions altough otherwise very similar in appearance. According to the web site is the largest wooden barge surviving built in 1906.
Our late Chairman had worked out the local tides so that we were guaranteed a good trip on the water and lunch afterwards all timed nicely to coincide with normal travel times. Lovely day as well!
I did have a 1/2 inch scale barge come through my hands, I just found it too large and heavy for me and after a bit I passed it on to a club member who put some extra touches to her and she now resides in a local museum.
regards
Roy
-
What is the big heavy chain across the deck for? .... Lee board bracing?
(https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=65141.0;attach=201988;image)
-
Hullo Roy & Steve.......
I do remember watching a Video of the Hydrogen named Thames Barge
From the image, it does confirm she has the engine cooling water shown
I am sure the chain Martin asks about is to lower the alternate Lee Board, however defer to Steve for a more factual response
A confusing issue is the two [2] chains that drop down over the stern to the rudder........they just don't suggest that they are to alter the angle or set of the rudder via the helm?
Derek
(https://www.top-sail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/intro-barge.jpg)
-
What is the big heavy chain across the deck for? .... Lee board bracing?
[size=78%]Yes, on the fullsize barge the leeboard is secured by an iron toggle pin throughthe for'd top corner, about which it pivots. The outboard head of the pin is either tee shaped or mushroom shaped. The pin passes through the bulwark, and the inboard ends of the port and starboard pins are joined by the chain. From memory, I think it has a turnbuckle in it to tighten the pins against the leeboards.[/size]
-
Hullo Roy & Steve.......
I do remember watching a Video of the Hydrogen named Thames Barge
From the image, it does confirm she has the engine cooling water shown
I am sure the chain Martin asks about is to lower the alternate Lee Board, however defer to Steve for a more factual response
A confusing issue is the two [2] chains that drop down over the stern to the rudder........they just don't suggest that they are to alter the angle or set of the rudder via the helm?
Derek
Derek, HYDROGEN is still going strong, she was the first barge I ever sailed on. She does only day trips as she has no cabin accommodation below, but she can carry at least 50 passengers and if the heavens open they can all get down in the hold which is now an open plan saloon with galley and bar. As Roy posted earlier, she is the largest wooden barge still afloat; she was originally built with steel tanks in the holds to carry stuff like creosote - some think that any leakage has helped preserve her timbers.She doesn't normally race in the sailing matches, she follows the action as a floating grandstand , which is a good earner. It cost thousands each year just to keep a barge maintained, particularly a wooden one. Like most preserved barges she now has an engine with a prop under one quarter, gets the passengers home if the wind won't serve. I've sailed on EDME and MIROSA which still have no engine and hence can keep their original fitted cabin at the stern, this usually got sacrificed for an engineroom.
The chains to the rudder are not for steering, this is done through a short iron crosshead yoke on top of the rudder stock. The ships wheel turns a shaft which is half righthand threaded and half lefthand threaded. There is "nut" on each threaded section with an arm ( one short, one long ) going back to the crosshead yoke; as the wheel is turned, one arm pushes and one arm pulls the rudder round. Hope this explanation is understandable. The chains are kicking straps for the rudder and lead to its outboard top edge; they are slack in the photo but one would tighten as the helm goes over. If the barge was anchored in rough weather , both chains would be tightened to lock the rudder against wave action and avoid damage to the steering gear. Only one preserved fullsized barge, DAWN, has tiller steering. Most barges from the end of the 19th century were built with wheel steering - the tillers were pretty fearsome things and could easily knock someone overboard, in rough weather they would have preventer tackles rigged from the tiller end to the quarter rails either side to stop them getting out of control.
-
Thanks Steve.......
"the chains to the rudder are not for steering, this is done through a short iron crosshead yoke on top of the rudder stock. The ships wheel turns a shaft which is half righthand threaded and half lefthand threaded. There is "nut" on each threaded section with an arm"
In a perfect World, I would love to sail/be crew on a Thames Barge O0 ... Derek
-
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Boat-bits/i-x84Zj33/0/87609cc1/XL/90AB6FBB-DA9D-4195-806A-1138408F098B-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Boat-bits/i-VZMNxJw/0/d9bf5fde/X2/B0395FF7-430C-4CB1-9BB0-497F1F8304B6-X2.jpg)
-
Hi,
There are several next active blogs.
AMBO ( The Association of Model Barge Owners ) > - as a replacement for link >Modelbarge.info
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2659272094133382/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/2659272094133382/)
Model Thames Sailing Barges https://www.facebook.com/groups/1036890286476399/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1036890286476399/)
Thames Sailing Barges https://www.facebook.com/groups/1491060737778004/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1491060737778004/)
Thames sailing barges stuff https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=131302&p=1 (https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=131302&p=1)
Greetings
Tom
-
Hey thanks Tom.......there are some amazing images of the Gaff Barges of yesteryear....
I am still unsure of those chains dropping over the rudder.......many of the barges appear to have an iron square muff collar around the top of the square wooden rudder post...then two arms disappearing under a cover forward to a steering position
These do not present as Tiller Arms......as many of the vessels have what we see as conventional ships wheels :o
Derek
-
Regarding the chains hanging from the stern, as the rudder is a big chunk of wood i.e buoyant, sitting on pintles. Could they be as a back up to losing the rudder in a storm etc as they don't seem to interfere with the normal movement of the rudder ? Also from the pics, not all barges have them, so they must be optional.
Surprised no barge sailors have joined in (or or they sitting in stitches enjoying the whacky theories !)
Mike
-
Derek the rods are links to the steeing gear. Basically the wheel is on the end of a steel rod with two threaded sections, one left and the other right handed thread. A threaded sleeve travels on each of the threaded section as the rod rotates. Each sleeve is connected by a rod link to the rudder, as the wheel rotates one sleeve travels forwards and the other backwards providing a turning force to the rudder. I havn't been able to find a photo of this mechanism so far, maybe someone can do this to make the mechanism clearer.
Jim
-
I am not a model RC sailor - I race in RG65 and IOM classes - but I can tell you this:
One of the challenges of designing rigs for RC sailboats is that you need to have a simple way to tack your sails - wind will fill the sails from port or starboard depending on where you want to go, right? So when tacking, the sails need to pass from starboard to port and back with ease, even in very low winds. So, the easiest way to do this is to avoid overlapping sails, so that each individual sail can move from one side to the other without touching any other sail or any part of the standing and running rigging.
I think this is the reason why the from jib is rigged upside-down: so that it can tack freely.
Regards,
Thomas Armstrong
-
Hi,
here is the rudder control system, commonly used (even in modifications) for example in American fishing schooners (Gloucester schooners).It is clear here where the rudder control rods lead.
Tom
-
Thanks Gents :-)) ..........a small functioning turnbuckle may have enough LH & RH thread?? %) ..... Derek
-
Thanks Gents :-)) ..........a small functioning turnbuckle may have enough LH & RH thread?? %) ..... Derek
I don't think you want a complicated steering arrangement so small... it would be bound to fail.
I suggest you use the traditional direct pull-pull arrangement used commonly on all RC aircraft and boats...
-
I take you point Thomas, Knupfers largest left/right threaded spindle rod is M3 x 0.5 ...and in brass ..so the shear is ~~ 2.439 mm diameter....which in brass isn't a lot >>:-(
I also now understand about the drooping safety chains Mike......to guard against that large rudder floating away in heavy seas
Derek
-
I take you point Thomas, Knupfers largest left/right threaded spindle rod is M3 x 0.5 ...and in brass ..so the shear is ~~ 2.439 mm diameter....which in brass isn't a lot >>:-(
I also now understand about the drooping safety chains Mike......to guard against that large rudder floating away in heavy seas
Derek
Thats just my theory Derek ! By the way when I built my 4ft scratch built Will Everard I came across instructions for a screw powered steering gear in an old model magazine and decided to make it. Too complicated to describe really but basically it consisted of a screw rod running from steering wheel astern to a support on which a screwed saddle ran back and forth. Suspended from that was a fitting with a pair of microswitches attached at the bottom and to arms on port and starboard rudder head. A servo in the hull was connected to the switches so that port helm would set the current in one direction, starboard the opposite and the rudder would turn. To cut a complicated story short (I'm lost and I made it !) the gear worked fine with the steering wheel turning along with the rudder, BUT I sail in a large concrete sided lake and she sails well in a strong wind, but the rudder moved slowly and more to scale. After a few collisions with a far off concrete bank because it took so long for the rudder to answer, I abandoned it for a standard servo linkage and fitted an extended rudder bottom to ease the strain on the servo.
Mike
-
Mike....
It was a Will Everard model posting somewhere that caught my eye & I have read as much as I can find since and also joined the Facebook Group specifically for Thames Sail Barges.......[I see tomaracks postings there]
From the little detail available, many images do suggest the rudder blade was suspended on those two [2] pintals without any form of locking them down
So your theory around the safety chains appears most logical :-))
Derek
-
I am not a model RC sailor - I race in RG65 and IOM classes - but I can tell you this:
One of the challenges of designing rigs for RC sailboats is that you need to have a simple way to tack your sails - wind will fill the sails from port or starboard depending on where you want to go, right? So when tacking, the sails need to pass from starboard to port and back with ease, even in very low winds. So, the easiest way to do this is to avoid overlapping sails, so that each individual sail can move from one side to the other without touching any other sail or any part of the standing and running rigging.
I think this is the reason why the from jib is rigged upside-down: so that it can tack freely.
Regards,
Thomas Armstrong
Thanks for that Thomas, I can see your point. No doubt the jibs supplied for the model were to scale, but they would not behave like the real thing when trying to make the model sail, so maybe the previous owner modified the rig to avoid any overlapping.That still doesn't explain why the stays are mounted lower than fullsize practice, but now I'm thinking maybe the model was originally rigged correctly,with the upper jib the right way up and on a stay to the topmast head, and the lower jib on a stay to the mainmast head.If the height of the rig then tended to lay the model over in wind gusts, the stay positions were then lowered, and the upper sail upended to avoid its foot fouling the stay beneath. Unless the previous owner pops up on this forum to explain, that will have to suffice!
So, now I plan to learn how to operate my wife's sewing machine and make two new jibs from some fine cotton that I have scavenged. I will rerig the stays to their correct positions and try sailing first with lower jib only, then with both, and see what happens. ok2
-
Mike....
It was a Will Everard model posting somewhere that caught my eye & I have read as much as I can find since and also joined the Facebook Group specifically for Thames Sail Barges.......[I see tomaracks postings there]
From the little detail available, many images do suggest the rudder blade was suspended on those two [2] pintals without any form of locking them down
So your theory around the safety chains appears most logical :-))
Derek
Believe me, they are kicking chains (see my reply#12 ) to stop the rudder slamming about when anchored and possibly damaging the steering gear. Smaller barges had one, larger coasting barges like HYDROGEN had two.When not in use and slacked off, they would tend to swing around and bash the transom, so the slack bight of the chain has a line attached and this is pulled up tight to the rudderhead usually with a small block.
The rudder would normally pivot on three or four gudgeons on the sternpost, with a single long iron pin going down through all of them. This would have to break and come out to allow the rudder to part from the stern post, so would only be likely if the barge were rammed from astern, or grounded on rocks.
I've now realised that I haven't actually got any kicking chains on my model, so I will have to look out for some suitable chain. The trouble with detailing is you never know when to stop....... :-)
-
Believe me, they are kicking chains (see my reply#12 ) to stop the rudder slamming about when anchored and possibly damaging the steering gear. Smaller barges had one, larger coasting barges like HYDROGEN had two.When not in use and slacked off, they would tend to swing around and bash the transom, so the slack bight of the chain has a line attached and this is pulled up tight to the rudderhead usually with a small block.
The rudder would normally pivot on three or four gudgeons on the sternpost, with a single long iron pin going down through all of them. This would have to break and come out to allow the rudder to part from the stern post, so would only be likely if the barge were rammed from astern, or grounded on rocks.
I've now realised that I haven't actually got any kicking chains on my model, so I will have to look out for some suitable chain. The trouble with detailing is you never know when to stop....... :-)
Sounds like a man who knows what he is talking about !
Also just realised that my barge is also missing said chains, now where did I put my odds and sods tin ?
Mike
-
Glad to help!
Another bit of advice. I see many model scale RC sailboats failing to sail properly because people try to make them sail exactly as the real thing. Above explanation about rudder being too slow is one example. But the error I see everywhere is not adding enough righting moment AND lateral resistance.
Please take a look at this racing IOM class sailboat: http://www.allradiosailboats.com/design/areo (http://www.allradiosailboats.com/design/areo) (there are many others in that database)
The long vertical fin is there for lateral resistance, and ALL the ballast is in the form of a bulb at the bottom so that righting moment is highest possible.
These two facts together allow for huge sails on a 1-meter 4kg sailboat.
My suggestion is: instead of adding ballast inside your model's hull, install a removable fin+bulb. Removable so you can still display your beautiful scale model in your house or office.
You don't need such a long fin - maybe 20cm long with 750gr ballast will do - just add enough ballast/bulb for your model to sit correctly in the water. You can even buy fin+bulbs from local suppliers...
These guys have some ready to install bulbs and fins: https://www.sailsetc2.com/index.php/products-by-category/boat-parts-materials/hull-appendages.html (https://www.sailsetc2.com/index.php/products-by-category/boat-parts-materials/hull-appendages.html)
-
Hi, if you do decide to make your own sails take care as to where you cut them from in the cloth. Being triangular shaped the longest edge should be with the weft of the material i.e. the part that does not stretch. If you do not do this then when hanging in position you will have curve in the cloth that will not go away. I make a lot of my own sails and it is an easy mistake to make.Roy
-
On my vessels 750g will make them submarines, a case of 'Pirates of the Caribbean' the flying Dutchman - except they wouldn't be able to come up
-
Hello, I think the HFM Thames Barge was smaller than your dimensions but you are not wrong.
Before the kit came out Harvey prouced a black plastic hull of about your size. It was in two vertical sections. I think the HFM kit is to 1 : 48 whereas most of the large ones are at 1 : 24 scale. This hull fell between the two, but there are lots of figures in this scale.
I bought a hull which came with Lee boards as well for the princely sum of £2.50 at an exibition, I think he was pleased to clear them! I never got round to it but passed the plastic hull and lee boards on to a friend who built a good model of her.
I asked Harvey if she was modelled on a particular barge and he said it was Venta. (I have the plans for her).
I am sure others can help with the sailing characteristics.
regards
Roy
Roy, an unmade HFM barge kit has just come up on eBay, and I was able to check dimensions with the seller and confirm that mine is an HFM kit. Given what you paid for your hull and leeboards it will be ineresting to see what the kit fetches today!
Regards
Steve
-
Hi Steve you said your model hull length was 33 inches. The HFM kit is 24 inches according to a friend who built one.
As I said the 33 inch black plastic hull was not a kit just 2 sheets of plastic moulded. Also I think you mentioned how 1 ; 33 figures suited the scale and 33 inch long hull would be about that size, give or take a bit.
kind regards
Roy
-
Hi Roy. Bit of confusion, I said my model was about 33inches overall including rudder and bowsprit, the hull is about 25 inches, so it definitely is the HFM kit.The eBay seller is offering it with plans for the barge Lady Daphne, which I think must be an additional item. By my reckoning the scale of the kit is somewhere between 1:35 and 1:40, it doesnt appear to be stated on the box. I wonder how much it will fetch?
-
Hi well most Thames Barges are built at around hull length 48 inches long and they are regarded as 1/2 inch to the foot, or 1 : 24th scale. You can work out the rest.
I think Harvey only made a few at the scale I mentioned and they are rarely seen.
Regards
Roy
-
short summary - barge model classes (AMBO)
1/24th Scale Bowsprit and Staysail Coastal
Hull length Under 45 45 50
Mast height Maximum 40 Maximum 47
Head stick Under 5 ½ Under 5 ½
Sprit Maximum 30 Maximum 33
30 Approx. 1/35th 1/40th scale with a hull length under 30, a class originally based on the HFM KATHLEEN and including the Richard Webb KITTY semi-scale model but now encompassing all small barges.
Unless you are building a true scale model in respect of hull form, sail plan and rigging then the following specification should be followed:
30 class
Hull length Under 30
Mast Height Under 30
Head Stick Under 3 ½
Sprit maximum 22 ½
The above standardisation of specification is an attempt to prevent super large non scale rigs being used and causing arguments on the fairness of the racing - unless on a scale model of a barge that sailed with a big rig.
Therefore do not be disturbed if you see a tape measure being taken to various parts of your barge during a meeting! 12 Fun class with 12 hull length in either Bowsprit, Staysail or Coastal configuration
-
Thanks for that Tomorack, good information.
regards
Roy
-
Yesterday on Talking pictures was a film 'Pool of London', there was a couple of scenes at the end (I only saw the last 15 mins) of Thames barges where a character sneeked aboard snuck off one.
-
Hi Warspite out of shear coincidence I watched som of that being filmed. It was on Tower Bridge with my parents and we watched as Bonar Colleano went up some steps on the bridge into an office, It took quite a few takes before it was OK'd. I suppose 1949? Of course we watched in full colour!
regards
Roy
-
Ref Reply #36:-
Many thanks for that Tomorack, that's just the information I was looking for :-))
-
Hi,
I have to say here , Ray Wood wrote me (as for the model barges classes at present )
Yes I'm sure the dimensions you posted are correct 😄 maybe years ago the barges were scrutinized properly at races, but the attraction of the barge racing it is now conducted in a very relaxed manner which all say if we don't win 👍😉⛵
Greetings
Tom
-
The rudder is held by a steel rod passing through the pintels on the rudder and the stern post, I know that because I helped fit a new one on the Mirosia . We had to use a 14lb maul to drive it down because her stern post had bent slightly with old age. Also most barges had one kicking strap aft, as previously said to stop the rudder juddering against the steering gear and keeping the master awake in his bunk, secure it and then turn the rudder into it and then put the locking pin down on the steering gear. May be of interest one of the bigger barges built was the Sarah Smeed off Faversham owned by Smeed and Deans, a 241 grt schooner rigged barge, 125.7 x 25.7 x 11ft. Spent my youth sailing on them, with some of the older well known ex trading masters of the time.
-
But to the original question, yes that looks very much like the HFM model, have one in my garage and am going to do it as a stumpie barge with a tiller. Hopefully I will be able to sail it with out keels etc.
-
Found this on Facebook...
I thought, wrongly as it happens it was only a feature of our models that require extensions to the rudder to make it work !! Today I bought a super 1933 book Sailorman by E G Martin OBE which has some really good sketches and he recalls his time as mate on the tsb Vigilant. Thought this may be of interest 😀
Regards Ray
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/10/10/Rudder-1.jpg) (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/aMhxG)
-
The chains have nothing what so ever to do with the rudder breaking off, they are to to stop the rudder kicking against the steering gear in a seaway when at anchor. The barges did have a general crewing number depending on size and trading distance. Any where from 2 to 4 men. Though my Grandmothers uncle sailed his barge in the 1st W War to France and back single handed, then the Freght rates were astronomical compared to peace time and he received 50% of the freight rate. I did know of a couple of skippers who had their wives instead of the normal mate. Have uploaded a pic of Goldfinch reckon to be the prettiest barge ever by the old Sailorman, her last was Dickey Doddler.
-
I do not know if there is any interest in this thread, but have only just come to this site. I am a former Thames Sailing Barge skipper and may be able to help on some of the issues raised above.
The jibs on the model. Yes, the outer jib, the jib topsail is upside down. The topmast forestay on which it is fastened should go to the top of the mast. The stay for the middle jib, the jib should co to the lower end of the topmast housing, not as suggested the top.
The heavy chain across the deck is inaccurate. There was usually a steel plate bolted down to the deck, then rods coming from that on each side connected to a short length of chain which went through the pivot point of the leeboard and was held by a three curved prong fitting through the chain. Leeboards were raised and lowered by a crab winch on either side, well back abaft the main horse. The wire from the winch went through a pulley on the outer edge of the deck and down to a chain through a small hole in the top of the after most end of the leeboard. They were raised and lowered depending on tack, with the weather 'board up and the leeward one down.
Most barges in latter years has screw type steering.
The light chains going from deck down to outer end of the rudder
[size=78%]were kicking straps and were tightened up after anchoring to stop the rudder slamming around and making a lot of noise in the aftercabin.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Any questions about barges, please feel free to ask me..[/size]