Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Full Scale Ships => Topic started by: Rob47 on June 26, 2020, 10:50:01 AM

Title: HMS Hermes
Post by: Rob47 on June 26, 2020, 10:50:01 AM
Well it seems that all being well we could be seeing HMS Hermes return home.  The latest news on the update page is, that India is very positive about it coming back, a site for a dry dock and maritime museum has been found and most importantly backers and funding have surfaced.  It looks like she is to have a dry dock built to house her,, so its good news although thta could change at a moments notice.  Fingers crossed.


Bob
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 26, 2020, 11:16:01 AM
Have you got a link to the update page?

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Rob47 on June 26, 2020, 01:00:36 PM
Colin its a FB group HMS Hermes R12, some brilliant images of her inside as she is today


Bob
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 26, 2020, 01:15:13 PM
I'm not on Facebook.

It will be interesting to learn just how they can make her commercially viable over an extended period. It wasn't possible for one of the Invincibles. I have visited USS Intrepid in MY and she is very impressive but she is in a prime waterfront location in probably th most famous city in the world with (in normal times) a huge tourist footfall.

I believe the Indians really wanted to preserve her themselves but couldn't come up with a solution.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Rob47 on June 26, 2020, 03:26:25 PM
Illustrious was never going to be saved, despite the spin put out by Cameron, when the signal came through about it, all knew it was never going to happen, bids for her from external sources were well over the mark of the scrap bid by several noughts, but lost out


As the location is being secret, although itís up north, the backers must feel confident, to put money into her and the museum.



Bob
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: JimG on June 26, 2020, 08:17:18 PM
What makes me doubt the viability of this is the fact that they are supposed to be building a dry dock for her. I can't imagine how many millions this would take and could they repay this cost through visitors? Never mind the cost of buying Hermes and towing or transporting her back to the UK.  Portsmouth historic dockyard was able to host the Victory, Mary Rose and Monitor bescause they had existing dry docks for them. Even rebuilding an existing old dock, how many ones that can take the Hermes are still in existence and unused.
Jim
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Rob47 on June 26, 2020, 08:22:28 PM
Jim
I think that they have it fully worked out, and if it was in any doubt why would investors be interested,  We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I really hope they pull it off.
Bob
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: RST on June 26, 2020, 08:30:03 PM
Gosh, I'm all for preserving heritage but I can't see it happening. Maybe if there was an existing dock. It's very difficult to get funding for anything, moreso now. They would probably have a better chance if they said there would be a Starbucks or Costa Coffee outlet on it.  One can but hope though, otherwise there will be a big gap in heritage in times to come.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: ballastanksian on June 26, 2020, 09:35:31 PM
Perhaps they will do something quasi corporate with museum elements. Have they not still got dry docks in Barrow they could use, or are BAE still using these?
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 26, 2020, 09:57:07 PM
Much as I'd like it to be true I just can't get my head around a viable financial plan for a ship of this size as a business proposition, particularly in the North of the country.

99% of preservation projects like this come to nothing and it is hard to see how this one would be any different although I'd love to be proved wrong.

Plus of course the ship now looks nothing like it did in RN days after so long in the Indian Navy.

Colin

Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: ballastanksian on June 26, 2020, 09:59:44 PM
It would need serious reconstruction, and what era will it be preserved to? WW2, Falklands, a bit of both?
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Rob47 on June 27, 2020, 01:30:02 PM
Guys, all I did was post what I thought was positive news about actually saving one of our warship's rather better than the save HMS Bristol campaign.
I do believe she is coming home, if you had been following the events over the last three years it will be obvious why the optimism.  The first bid fell through due to the crowdfunding not being enough, then the Indians found that no one wanted her for scrap, then it went silent  The guy organising this has put a lot of his own companyís money into this.  He has been promised the funds but is keeping who it  is quiet at the moment.  yes she needs work but looking at the images of her as she is, it is not as bad as you would think, lots of areas still have furniture and other fittings,, the equipment that the public like to see has been removed , BUT yesterday the group were informed that instead of being sold for scrap it is all in storage.


I really do think she is coming home and I for one cannot  wait to be working on her,  guess only time will tell
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 27, 2020, 02:08:06 PM
Rob, yes, we do appreciate the heads up but I have heard this sort of thing so many times before and it pretty much always comes to nothing in the end. The acquisition and initial setup costs is just a fraction of the funding that will be needed down the line year after year and you need a business plan that consistently brings in hundreds of thousands every year. The reason we have relatively few preserved ships is the crippling costs of maintaining them, ashore or afloat. It has only been barely possible to keep the Waverley operating and she has had a hand to mouth existence for most of her life despite being able to travel all round the UK to maximise income.

A huge aircraft carrier perched in a drydock somewhere up North is not a prospect which inspires confidence in terms of financial viability. Just keeping it painted and combatting the inevitable rust will cost thousdands a year alone. And when it comes to visitor numbers, once everyone within striking distance and with an interest in the ship has visited the vast majority of them won't come back for several years if at all.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: justboatonic on June 28, 2020, 02:35:18 PM
Crikey, they cannot get enough funding to keep Jacinta, a trawler, afloat as an attraction in Fleetwood due to maintenance costs so goodness knows how anyone will manage with an aircraft carrier. They couldnt preserve Plymouth, Liverpool or a host of other RN ships.
As for location, Barrow is off the beaten track (sorry any one wheel town inhabitants from CB days!). There's no motorway link and the rail service is well, not up to holiday traffic. Middlesbrough maybe but again, not the best place to access. Scotland maybe where they built the QE class carrier but would Hermes fit?
Good luck I say but the record of RN ship preservation makes this look a big ask.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: John W E on June 28, 2020, 04:35:24 PM

hi there, like everyone else I myself would love to see Hermes being kept and turned into a museum - when you look at the track record of our preserving such things - its not very good as everyone says.


What springs to mind was HMS Cavalier, she was going to be the be all and end all in the North East - she ended up going down to Chatham as a museum piece there, as it failed to become a profitable attraction in the North East through lack of public support. 


Also, we have 2 huge vacant docks in the North East - middle docks on the Tyne and Sunderland shipyard dock on the Wear - quite capable of taking the Hermes; but if they couldn't accommodate HMS Cavalier and turn that into a money maker - what chance have we got of HMS Hermes - so if they are thinking of putting Hermes there good luck to them.  If it goes to Middlesbrough (as has been suggested) it would be stripped of anything valuable before it got anywhere near the dock and we would be buying all bits of it on Ebay - especially the brasswork.  %%   Just my twopenneth worth.



Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: SailorGreg on June 28, 2020, 04:53:19 PM
I have a bit of a soft spot for Hermes, having landed on her once (in a Wessex) when she was anchored in Scapa Flow.  I can still remember stepping out onto the flight deck and being amazed at the size and solidity of it all.  My previous experience of RN ships had been frigates and as soon as you stepped aboard you were aware of an underlying buzz, hum, vibration, the ship working around you.  Hermes might just as well have been carved out of rock!  (I should point out that I have never served in the RN, but my job took me to sea on occasion, as well as lots of other interesting places.)

But will she return for preservation?  I don't know.  There are clearly some ex-RN ships that are going concerns.  Belfast manages because she is in the middle of London and the Royal Yacht because she is in Edinburgh.  The Chatham Dockyard exhibits pay their way as part of a larger attraction.  And Warrior is also part of a larger tourist destination.  But where is an ex-RN ship a stand-alone tourist attraction?  And all those ships mentioned are modest compared to the berth Hermes would need.

Fingers crossed, but I have my doubts.

Greg
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: tonyH on June 28, 2020, 05:48:33 PM
Sadly, whatever the cost implications and whether it were to be a goer or not, the current trend to re-assessing the role of historic monuments, especially when there are militaristic or similar implications, may not fall within current politico-media parameters. %)
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: ballastanksian on June 28, 2020, 06:31:27 PM
Bloomin heck, I've just looked her vital statistics up and can see what the potential issues stem from. nearly 750 feet long and ninety feet wide.


Only ten percent smaller than the Hood in basic terms  %% 


If she could be berthed somewhere like Liverpool then maybe she could be integrated into the larger tourist experience, but she will need lots of work and conversion from Indian refit standards and being an old girl.


It's a shame that Yeovilton is landlocked, as a pairing up with the FAA museum would be amazing.



Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 28, 2020, 07:10:33 PM
Basically the problem is that she would cost a fortune to maintain so would need a fortune in income year after year. That is the equation.

People say that the USA can preserve their battleships so why not us but the reality is that a lot of those historic WW2, battleships depended on the free support from former crew members and they have now faded away leaving the ships very exposed financially.

Tourists tramping round the decks are not enough, you need either state support (not forthcoming) or a solid business income from commercial events etc. which is also very difficult to maintain.

HMS Warrior at Portsmouth hosts various events including weddings to try to keep her solvent. I have previously had contact with Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and it is a real uphill struggle to keep even this fantastic site with its historic ships solvent, hence the various events usually staged during the year which are currently on hold. The truth is that Britain today has turned its back on its maritime heritage and there is little public interest as was the case in the past. The ship presrevation scene is a really hard grind these days and not set to improve.

The London Science Museum had an incredible maritime gallery with fantastic ship models and other exhibits but the sad truth was that nobody ever visited it in its later days. Before it closed I visited to take photos and while sitting on a bench to look at the images on my camera I was approached by a museum attentant who suggested that there were more interesting things to be seen in the Space Gallery on the floor below. In a sense she was right, I was the only person in the gallery at the time. Down below there were hordes of visitors.

The National Maritime had a wonderful selection of models on display, now all gone and in storage at Chatham, ditto the Imperial War Museum.

In the circumstances, what hope is there of something the size of Hermes becoming a major sustainable attraction?The Falklands War was 38 years ago, ancient history to most people today even if they are aware of it which is probably unlikely.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: ballastanksian on June 28, 2020, 10:22:31 PM
Nearly forty years ago, it doesn't bear thinking about does it!



Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: BrianB6 on June 29, 2020, 06:59:02 AM
The Western Port Oberon Association has been trying to find the funds to build a maritime centre to house ex. H.M.A.S. Otama and ex. Pilot ship Wyuna near Melbourne for many years.   They have the ships and the local council have indicated they have a site.   Each election the opposition party says it will help with funds but nothing has eventuated.

Otama has been sitting off shore for nearly 20 years.

Wyuna is said to be Australia's "Britannia", having been built on the Clyde in 1953 to a classic 20th century design.    She was generously donated to the Western Port Oberon Association but they could not raise the insurance to sail her from Tasmania to the main land.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Andy F on July 04, 2020, 10:31:32 AM
My wife's cousin served aboard Hermes in 82, he said he has some fond memories and some not so fond. For such an historically important vessel, I think preservation is an excellent plan but....

 
Moderated- Admin
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Dave_S. on July 04, 2020, 08:02:14 PM
I'm fairly new around here, but I thought the jokes about Liverpool had been laid to rest long ago. I've worked with Liverpudlians, and have friends and relatives there. Love our trips up there. Couldn't find better, friendlier people anywhere. I blame certain TV 'comedies' for starting the nonsense and it's getting very old.


Please delete if not appropriate, but I've been seething about that post all day - and I am from Oxfordshire, not very near Liverpool at all.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Andy F on July 04, 2020, 09:45:27 PM
 
Moderated- Admin

 Andy F   banned from this Forum   :police:
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: warspite on July 05, 2020, 12:11:47 PM
I am a great believer in preserving our countries heritage, the major events like WW I & II for definite as they involved significant loss over many years, as for vessels, a lot of good vessels were lost to the scrap yards even after major events that pushed them to the fore - it seems there achievements were not enough to help keep the vessels.


Victory - kept and is still much revered, Warrior - not so revered but a good attraction on the same site, Belfast - a decent attraction in the middle of London, easily accessible from a tourist point of view, other vessels including Submarines, less visited, either due to there remoteness or the fact they are not a advertised or well known, like the Sub on the opposite shore to the naval yard at Portsmouth.


As for Hermes - Yes, historically an event in our history, though luckily one that didn't mean the loss of as many as in the WW's (any loss is regrettable), worth keeping - not really, as many have stated, unless it is with other vessels , say at the naval yard with Victory, Warrior and M1, or close to Belfast, there would be little incentive for tourists to venture to see her, it would probably take a day at least to traipse around her, she would have to have a variety of aircraft on the top deck as well so would be compared to the New York attraction and special events every day to allow for the upkeep, even if the IWM were to use her as another site, with permanent displays charting the periods in history over her lifespan, i.e. Post war, Cold war and after service with the RN and Indian navy, would that be a profitable option, unlikely.


If Portsmouth with its other basins near by could be freed up to put a large vessel into a dry dock, then I would think that the chance of it being worthwhile is slim, I would like to see all naval vessels types rescued, but the hard fact is unless its going to pay for itself then let it go, the really worthwhile vessels have already gone to the scrap yard, only the Americans saved their heritage, but that's under threat now.


My view and I support others points of view regarding the saving or disposing of naval vessels based on being non biased  %)
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: plastic on July 05, 2020, 02:34:57 PM
I think a big problem with all these large ships is going to be the costs of running them.     The American stuff has done well because of so many veteran volunteers manning them - but they are literally dying out - and a lot of the visitors would have been ex-services - and they are dying out too.   

UK has a much smaller pool of volunteers so I think generating any kind of profit will be difficult.        People can also get their 1-day 'old warship' hit all in one go at Portsmouth - why bother going anywhere else?

I suspect a lot of these preserved ships will just quietly disappear in the next 10-20 years.   (mirroring model boating as a hobby?)
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Baldrick on July 05, 2020, 03:19:45 PM
I am afraid so , reminds me of the last time Old Albion was skint after WW II . In 1949 HMS Implacable (Ex Duguay-Trouin 1800) almost as old as Victory and still reasonably sound with a history as long as your arm was found to be unaffordable, towed out of Portsmouth and blown to smithereens off the Isle of Wight .  It is certain that in the wake of the corona pandemic when the reckoning has to be done and making repayments for our borrowing must be faced, many cherished projects will be abandoned and our cloth cut to suit our reduced means.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: old_gunner on July 11, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
Nearly forty years ago, it doesn't bear thinking about does it!
Looked at some photo's of Op Corporate and in the 38 years since I can still fit into my uniform, well the boots and beret the rest seems to have shrunk.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: dodes on July 30, 2020, 01:13:03 PM
With the amount the government has borrowed recently, you may have a new carrier to put up as a museum to help keep it financed in reserve.!!
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Baldrick on July 30, 2020, 02:51:44 PM
With the amount the government has borrowed recently, you may have a new carrier to put up as a museum to help keep it financed in reserve.!!


  I thought that they had one of them chalked up as a possible HULK for illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: dodes on July 31, 2020, 01:50:48 PM
Are they big enough!!
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: JimG on July 31, 2020, 07:59:33 PM
No need to use a carrier for this, there will be plenty of cruise liners going cheap.
Jim
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: ballastanksian on August 01, 2020, 04:29:25 PM
Watching the series on Queen Elizabeth's first tour to the US to test land and cycle the F35, there were a number of conventions held aboard her in the Hangar, which did make me wonder at one of her roles as a flag flier/ambassador.


If this is the case then potential use for Hermes as a floating convention centre would be put at even greater risk, if our Carriers also have to solicit themselves as such during their fifty year lives.



Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: derekwarner on August 01, 2020, 11:34:32 PM
Ian...I think the level of Security for such an event onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth [RO8] would take a Brigade of Royal Marines to implement and ensure such safety  :police:  .....the same would apply for a standard [lavish] onboard Naval Banquet


1. Goodness knows the planed itinerary of RO8, but I doubt she will venture too far a field or toward troubled waters
2. How many Royal Marines does it take to makes a Brigade?

3. Now The Royal Marines Captain General [Duke of Sussex] is in exile, it appears his 69 year old Aunt has taken over the reigns?
...[reigns sounds appropriate as Captain General Anne may ride a horse?]

Derek ....[this is not intended as a Political/Royalist comment posting]
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: BeeJay UK on August 02, 2020, 08:56:56 AM
Looked at some photo's of Op Corporate and in the 38 years since I can still fit into my uniform, well the boots and beret the rest seems to have shrunk.


Strange that, my uniforms seem to have shrunk too. Including my boots, my issued DMS boots were 12M and fitted fine, I now have to buy 13's or even 14's if they are a narrow fit. Perhaps I'm collapsing into my feet, or more likely, the increased load is making my feet bigger.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: derekwarner on August 02, 2020, 09:10:40 AM

You got it BeeJay :-))  as we grow older........we need larger size or width shoes........


[I might save my collection of good leather shoes & boots for a Grandchild]


https://www.berkeleywellness.com/self-care/article/do-feet-really-get-bigger-age


Derek
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: rob on August 02, 2020, 11:39:48 AM
Looked at some photo's of Op Corporate and in the 38 years since I can still fit into my uniform, well the boots and beret the rest seems to have shrunk
[/size]
[/size]
[/size]Not just the issued stuff, my grey flannels and blazer have as well.  . . . Must be the dark wardrobes.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: old_gunner on August 03, 2020, 10:13:49 AM
Ian...I think the level of Security for such an event onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth [RO8] would take a Brigade of Royal Marines to implement and ensure such safety  :police:  .....the same would apply for a standard [lavish] onboard Naval Banquet


1. Goodness knows the planed itinerary of RO8, but I doubt she will venture too far a field or toward troubled waters
2. How many Royal Marines does it take to makes a Brigade?

3. Now The Royal Marines Captain General [Duke of Sussex] is in exile, it appears his 69 year old Aunt has taken over the reigns?
...[reigns sounds appropriate as Captain General Anne may ride a horse?]

Derek ....[this is not intended as a Political/Royalist comment posting]
Can answer question 3, 3 Commando Units/Btn/Regt (however you would designate a RM Commando) plus 29 Cdo Rgt Royal Artillery, Commando Squadron Royal Engineers, Commando Logistics Rgt Royal Loggies, last but certainly not least 148 Bty NGFS Bty RA. All support unit troops have to pass the All Arms Commando Course and obtain their Green Lid.
Should add the first duty of the Royal Navy in foreign parts is to organize a good cocktail party.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: derekwarner on August 03, 2020, 10:58:48 AM
Thanks old_gunner .....although a off the original thread content, I was interested in understanding the level of security needed in todays World for a Nations Principal Military assets


Going back 30 something years, I saw the Carrier USS Enterprise anchored in Sydney Harbour, and later the Battleship USS Missouri moored at our Australian Naval Base, Garden Island Dockyard


The level of security for both occasions was could I suggest at a heightened level.........so 30 years onwards, I would expect the need for security be at a further heightened level ...so my question, how many Marines does a Brigade make?


Derek



Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: warspite on August 03, 2020, 11:11:21 AM
from t'internet a brigade is anything up to 5000 men comprising of several battalions, but it says that usually 35 to 55 are assigned to large warships so I would guess 55 for a carrier, 35 for the rest - but they only deploy from their bases which is where the brigade is stationed.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: old_gunner on August 03, 2020, 01:26:22 PM
from t'internet a brigade is anything up to 5000 men comprising of several battalions, but it says that usually 35 to 55 are assigned to large warships so I would guess 55 for a carrier, 35 for the rest - but they only deploy from their bases which is where the brigade is stationed.
You are quite right, however for the Army, the problem with a Commando Brigade is the Royal marines only have about 7500 troops, so if we take the Commando Brigade on Op Corporate (The Falklands) it had added to the Brigade Battalions of the parachute regiment. This made the journey down on the Canberra quite interesting as there is a certain rivalry between the units.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Colin Bishop on August 26, 2020, 05:03:28 PM
Reported in today's Times (26 August) that the former HMS Hermes has been sold for scrap.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: DavieTait on August 26, 2020, 05:22:29 PM
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/former-royal-navy-carrier-hms-hermes-turned-ins-viraat-be-dismantled-india-2951858
She's already being towed to Alang for breaking

https://ahmedabadmirror.indiatimes.com/columns/the-informer/iconic-ins-viraat-to-be-dismantled-at-alang/articleshow/77711135.cms
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: Rob47 on September 05, 2020, 10:27:42 AM
David not true, the bid to buy her was scuppered by the ministry of steel who once they found out she was going to be sold to the UK, went and sold her in defiance of the Indian government
We had been told in advance about the headlines and to ignore the mas they were mostly false.  The latest is she should have gone last week but the Government has halted it, talks are ongoing and she still could be saved but would have to remain in India but with the uK trust running her.  So for the moment she is still not on her last voyage and fingers crossed.


Bob
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: SailorGreg on September 05, 2020, 11:19:36 AM
Hmmm.....

I fear straws are being clutched here.   {:-{ {:-{   And the idea of a UK trust running a museum ship in India seems a little odd.  To put it mildly.

Greg
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: justboatonic on September 05, 2020, 12:12:48 PM
David not true, the bid to buy her was scuppered by the ministry of steel who once they found out she was going to be sold to the UK, went and sold her in defiance of the Indian government
We had been told in advance about the headlines and to ignore the mas they were mostly false.  The latest is she should have gone last week but the Government has halted it, talks are ongoing and she still could be saved but would have to remain in India but with the uK trust running her.  So for the moment she is still not on her last voyage and fingers crossed.


Bob
That's just not going to fly (or should that be sail?!) is it? Run by a UK Trust but the ship stays in India? Only a very small hardcore of people would pay money for that.
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: DavieTait on September 19, 2020, 01:03:55 PM
https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/1307263218528579585On (https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/1307263218528579585On)
on her way to the scrap yard just now
Title: Re: HMS Hermes
Post by: DavieTait on September 19, 2020, 01:19:43 PM
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aircraft-carrier-viraat-sets-sail-for-gujarat-on-last-voyage-to-be-dismantled-2297919