Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Engineering Techniques and Materials. => Topic started by: ukmike on July 12, 2020, 04:00:49 pm
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Hello.
I have a Scheppach DP16VL pillar drill that I would like to change the key type chuck to a keyless one.
There is no slot in the quill to use for tapered drifts and the manual says to open the chuck wide and tap it with a mallet, being careful to hold one hand ready to catch it when it falls. Sounds easy, but, despite my best attempts, without bashing it too hard and doing damage, it refuses to budge.
The taper is female in the chuck and the main spindle has the male B16 taper, if that helps.
Have tried heating the chuck with a heat gun but that is no help either.
Any suggestions ?
Mike.
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Is the a hole through the Quill?
..... screw inside the chuck?
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No hole down the centre shaft ? heating the chuck up wont help it'll just swell it in the female socket :kiss: pack ice round it would be more effective , but I wouldn't hold my breath , can you get a wedge betwix the chuck & the end of the main shaft ? (a fox wedge) one either side if you can, should shift it , may pop off the chuck if it's a taper fit on the MT2 shank , if it's a screw on chuck see if a sharp blow clockwise will loosen it , good luck. . .
Bill
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Thanks for the replies.
As my post says, there is no slot,hole or window of any kind in the quill.
Also, there is nowhere to get a wedge in to force it out.
I chose in desperation, to try a little heating.
Can't see how it could be packed in ice but will see if it's possible, nothing ventured eh !!
Mike.
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It would be unusual to have a male taper on the quill shaft , unless it's been machined all in one , there's no knowing what some manufacturer's do . . . if the chuck is just the chuck and no extension piece it may well be the end of the chuck has the female taper machined into it and cooling it wont work either , have the makers not got a website you could peer at ? you never know . . .
Bill
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It would be unusual to have a male taper on the quill shaft , unless it's been machined all in one , there's no knowing what some manufacturer's do . . . if the chuck is just the chuck and no extension piece it may well be the end of the chuck has the female taper machined into it and cooling it wont work either , have the makers not got a website you could peer at ? you never know . . .
Bill
Just a thought, open the chuck as wide as it'll go and , using a mirror , see if the end of the quill is visible , if it is you might be able to get it off with a puller and a rod . .
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I am unfamiliar with the drill but I think my approach would be to tighten a large allen key (or similar) in the chuck and tap it downwards with a piece of hardwood held close to the rightangle.
Just a thought,Mike
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https://youtu.be/AtNM8-VUvrg (https://youtu.be/AtNM8-VUvrg)
Flea bay sell the wedges or you could make them. Check just to make sure that a holding screw is not fitted by opening the jaws fully and looking in
cheers
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On Utube:
https://youtu.be/23qxNxs1Uq0
https://youtu.be/fZwx_773tbo
https://youtu.be/wkRTkvPpMlY
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If you use wedges, use two,one either side and hit them at the same time.nemesis
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Or use a track rod end splitting wedge. Two wedges in one tool.
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Thanks everyone for the replies and suggestions, very much appreciated.
Unfortunately, I will have to live with the original chuck as there is a plastic depth stop/chip guard mounting base which is fitted before the chuck is installed.
Although it's slotted for clamping purposes, the forces needed to open it up wide enough to move up out of the way and reveal the top of the chuck will smash it as it is hard ABS and I do use it quite often as a depth stop.
Mike.
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I can not visualise the set up have you tried the two hammer trick ,hold a lump hammer 4lb or some where about that firm against the MT then hit directly opposite it with a 2lb hammer 9 out of ten times that works .
ONLY DO THIS ONCE ,if it will not work the first time you will bruise the metal .
As I said I do not know your set up so all of the above might be a load of tosh in your situation.
David
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if you wind the chuck down, then lock the spindle than you will have clearance to get a wedge in (unless the guard moves with the spindle, though the guard should just need the bolt loosening to remove over the chuck, no great force should be needed to remove the guard.
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Photo's might help or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq8p0AwzKkc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq8p0AwzKkc) at about 7:15 minutes, if this is the correct model it uses a special tool that came with it, and is slid between the spindle and the chuck on two flats ground into the spindle and the chuck twisted off as its a threaded end
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Good morning all.
David48.
Where do I hit the chuck, the part that moves to tighten it or the the solid part where the chuck key fits ?
Grendel.
The guard base hole is a lot smaller than the chuck, that's why it is fitted before fitting the chuck.
Even with the clamping screw removed it is not possible to move it either up the quill out of the way or over the chuck without it shattering.
Mike.
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HI Mike
Would there be any chance of a picture or a link to a web picture I could see before I commit my self ,as said i am not sure what the set up looks like .
David
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Photos as requested.
Mike.
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yes, there doesnt look to be a lot of clearance to get a wedge in, my drill has the slot and that still requires a sharp whack with a big hammer on the wedge.
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Dont know if this is any help but its what the makers suggest
Removing the chuck Open jaws of chuck as wide as they go by turning chuck sleeve anticlockwise (when viewed from above). Carefully tap chuck with mallet in one hand while holding chuck in other hand to prevent dropping it when released from spindle nose.
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There looks like a gap between the underside of the stop and the chuck body, is it possible to photo the shaft between the gap, this drill is obviously older than the BD50's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl1Oo4LoXPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl1Oo4LoXPY) at about 7 minutes again it shows the fitting of the chuck, I would suppose clamping a bolt in the jaws and a pull clamp might dislodge it, otherwise sliding a plate with a slot in it and pulling or hitting this with a hammer would work, though pulling it would be better, putting the bed close to it may prevent the chuck from dropping to far.
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There looks like a gap between the underside of the stop and the chuck body, is it possible to photo the shaft between the gap, this drill is obviously older than the BD50's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl1Oo4LoXPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl1Oo4LoXPY) at about 7 minutes again it shows the fitting of the chuck, I would suppose clamping a bolt in the jaws and a pull clamp might dislodge it, otherwise sliding a plate with a slot in it and pulling or hitting this with a hammer would work, though pulling it would be better, putting the bed close to it may prevent the chuck from dropping to far.
The drill is only 2years old and still a current model.
Mike.
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Is the 2nd Youtube video the correct model?
There appears to be several videos that show how to use the wedges to remove the chuck, as I asked would drilling a hole in a bar and using a bolt, clamp the bar with a nut against the bolt head - then fit the bolt in the chuck and tighten as much as possible, then apply a hammer to the bar close to the bolt head, means you would not have to try and force something between the stop/guard plastic and the chuck. (use a fairly long M10/12 sized bolt or similar)
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Hi Mike
My idea will not work as there is not enough shaft , as I said a load of tosh I spoke. If it was mine my next move would be to put the chuck key in and give the chuck key a belt with a mallet in the direction of a LEFTHAND THREAD some Black& Deaker drills had that fixing .Now I have run out of ideas.
Good luck
David
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Is the 2nd Youtube video the correct model?
There appears to be several videos that show how to use the wedges to remove the chuck, as I asked would drilling a hole in a bar and using a bolt, clamp the bar with a nut against the bolt head - then fit the bolt in the chuck and tighten as much as possible, then apply a hammer to the bar close to the bolt head, means you would not have to try and force something between the stop/guard plastic and the chuck. (use a fairly long M10/12 sized bolt or similar)
Hi Warspite.
That is the model on the YouTube video.
Mike
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Hi Mike
My idea will not work as there is not enough shaft , as I said a load of tosh I spoke. If it was mine my next move would be to put the chuck key in and give the chuck key a belt with a mallet in the direction of a LEFTHAND THREAD some Black& Deaker drills had that fixing .Now I have run out of ideas.
Good luck
David
Its a push on chuck, there is no thread to unscrew from, the chuck key may be too high up, and missing it could damage the stop/guard plastic, using the jaws of the chuck to move the point of hammering down by the use of a bolt with a big head away from the chuck may be a solution, even using a chisel to hit the bolt head might be enough to loosen the tapers grip. I assume the arbor is not removable as damaging this whilst in the machine is not what you want.
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It is in the manual .Basically give it a thump .Not the way I would prefer to do it
The book is here. Page 31.1 64
https://www.zgonc.at/media/downloads/manuals/45733.pdf (https://www.zgonc.at/media/downloads/manuals/45733.pdf)
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Hi ya Mike
your pillar drill looks like the modern version of my 'old - ancient' Clarke pillar drill.
The way I removed the chuck from my old pillar drill required the use of a lump of 2 x 2 x 6 inches old oak wood (good solid hard timber) and a lump hammer or a 2 lb ball pane hammer - the choice is yours. Remove the safety guard mounting screw at the back of the machine (which holds the red support ring). Then, remove the stop screw lock nuts allowing you to move the spindle all the way down and giving you plenty of access to get the lump of timber in on the edge of the back of the chuck. Get someone to hold the handles of the drill in the 'down' position so that it doesn't spring back up all the time - and then give the timber a good wallop on the end - minding your fingers.
Also, have something to catch the chuck as it flies off.
I have used both versions of the chuck (keyless and the key one) and I confess I prefer the key chuck.
John
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If it requires all this violence to change it maybe stick with the key chuck?
Colin
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Evening all.
I think that the best way forward is indeed to stick with the chuck that's fitted which is still perfectly accurate following the abuse.
I'm not going to risk any more bashing with lump hammers to no avail.
My thanks to everyone for the replies and suggestions, I really appreciate all of the help offered.
Mike.
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hi Colin, you must not have had much engineering violence whilst at your work desk %% . In heavy engineering a 2 lb ball pane hammer is regarded as a toffee hammer - just good for cracking hard toffee O0 . When you see someone come along with an oxyacetyline bottle you know there is some serious work needed to be done, especially if you see someone dragging a Monday hammer behind them with a grin on their face - something is going to get a serious bit of violence. Not for the faint hearted.
John
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In heavy engineering a 2 lb ball pane hammer is regarded as a toffee hammer - just good for cracking hard toffee O0 .
{-) {-) {-)
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Monday Hammer - not heard of one of those before
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If a Monday hammer is as bad as it sounds, I'd hate to see a Friday one...
Colin
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Hi - I know this is ending up with 'nothing to do with removing chucks from drilling machines' but, as far as the Monday hammer is concerned - I was led to believe/told the story of its name - and how it came about. This was by an old blacksmith at Brigham & Cowan's shipyard - its one of the largest sledgehammers available - and - the next size up is mechanically driven. That therefore gives you some idea of the weight of the hammer head. Anyway, how does it get its name - Monday morning blacksmiths would often turn up with large quantities of alcohol in their systems and after 10 minutes of swinging one of these hammers on a Monday morning the amount of sweat that was produced cleared their bodies of alcohol. Nothing could be done for the headache though.
One way of clearing the headache - one of the so called remedies was to stand next to the quenching troughs, when they were quenching red hot steel. Now, many a blacksmith never made it to the toilets so you can guess where they used to have a weeeeeeeeeeeeeee - so, therefore, the smell/aroma coming from the troughs was the best way to clear a headache from a hangover head ache.
Anyway, I have been trying to find a link where it shows the blacksmiths manufacturing the Titanic's anchor chains - I cannot find it - but I have found this link, which, I think you will find quite interesting. Can you imagine been on the receiving end of a clip across the lughole from one of these blokes after he has been swinging a hammer all day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLIbObCltfQ
John
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Back to the hammer ,in the chain forge at the Black Country museum there is a real Monday It has two shafts set at about 30 to 40 deg used by two BIG men .
David
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In heavy engineering a 2 lb ball pane hammer is regarded as a toffee hammer - just good for cracking hard toffee (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/smiley.gif) .
(https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/grin.gif) (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/grin.gif)
...we call it a ball pein hammer in my shops so far (I have 3 and a well-placed "tap" somewhere cures wonders), I heard it's called a ball peen hammer elsewhere also, but never seen pane before?
I'd be inclined to leave as-is. I know it's a hassle but I've had that many times drill bits slip compared to using a chuck key.
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Last year, the VW Passat Alltrack WEB site listed the vehicles Moon Roof as a Pain of Armoured Glass. {-) .....I sent an e-mail to the Folks @ Wolfsburg....they corrected the WEB listing and thanked me......
Thanks? >>:-( ...[I was hoping for a free Alltrack]........ Derek...PS...I would have even accepted the VW Golf Alltrack.....white with black trim that is!
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...ah well, good luck with that one, I was trying to explain to VOSA for about 10 years here years back how an MR2 GT-i was imposssible to be classed as a GT and made a mockery of a GT and GTS models, and how a Celica wasn't a coupe either. I got nowhere and unfortunately bought less interesting cars. Thankfully I'm still VW free after my 1988 Caddy -I'd have another mk 1 golf in a second if there was any way of maintining it (though no carbs, I got fed up of carb icing with my caddy).
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Black Country chain makers.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/07/15/9DC7AF7B-00F1-4475-8751-A9E6123E4A69.jpg) (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/Zodml)
Titanic chain makers from my neck of the woods. Proud strong men.
Jerry
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6hNzbDP9ll4 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6hNzbDP9ll4)
Jerry.
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...we call it a ball pein hammer in my shops so far (I have 3 and a well-placed "tap" somewhere cures wonders), I heard it's called a ball peen hammer elsewhere also, but never seen pane before?
must have come as a shock when googling pane hammer to realise there was more than one size hammer than you got in your Christmas cracker tool box - {-) could you see through it, that was the point I was making. :-X
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John Your reference to a Monday hammer has brought some memories flooding back.I served my apprenticeship as a Millwright in a large floor and cattle food mill in Glasgow, very similar to the BALTIC Mill and owned by J Arthur Rank.
My journey man was a Vet from WW11 and was a very stocky smallish man but built like the proverbial out house, Gunner was has name as he served in the Royal Artillery. He had a Monday hammer with the shaft cut down to 20" and it was a permanent fixture in his tool box, the Hammer head was a 14 lb lump and a beast to lug about, he used it by holding the shaft about 6" from the head and rarely needed a 2- handed grip.
Here is a pic of the same hammer but for the life of me I can't remember how I have it now. ( 14 lbs stamped on the head)
Thanks for the memory.
George.
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Big stuff, a nice sledgehammer also the big V blocks in the shot. Like to see the size of the lathe they came off. nemesis
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I think that the best way forward is indeed to stick with the chuck that's fitted which is still perfectly accurate following the abuse.
I'm not going to risk any more bashing with lump hammers to no avail.
My thanks to everyone for the replies and suggestions, I really appreciate all of the help offered.
Mike.
Did you look up the center of the chuck Mike or take a photo? Screw?