Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Painting, Finishing and Care. => Topic started by: ukmike on July 14, 2020, 03:41:52 pm

Title: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 14, 2020, 03:41:52 pm

Hi fellow modellers.

Firstly, this Blog is solely for those people who are thinking about or intending using LeTonkinois varnish, as it has some unique properties that need to be understood before going ahead and using it. Also, I have no intentions of telling anyone what to do, wouldn't dream of it, but rather, only how I did it and arrived at a point where when finished I decided that it was the very best hand finished boat I could have ever hoped for, i.e. The Amati series one Riva Aquarama. It took many, many hours of varnishing test pieces, choosing brushes and even which White Spirit to use and no, they are not all the same! I had many failures, before I got it right. The main reason for turning to LeTonkinios was due to that fact that I couldn't get the original Italian varnish that Riva used. This was Stoppani and was applied using 4 inch brushes by the factory. Stoppani still exist but ceased making the  one pack varnishes in favour of more modern 2 pack synthetic types which have to be applied by spraying, Riva then changed also to spraying their hulls and buffing to get the same perfect results as before.
I have been most fortunate, in that I was shown over then invited by the owner to take the helm of an original Aquarama, down along the Grand Canal in Venice and out into the lagoon. That's when I decided that I had just been in the most beautiful boat in the world, not having £700.000, instead, I decided to build my own, unfortunately only a little one, the Amati kit to be precise.

Before I continue with this Blog I would like to know if it would be of any help to anyone, as I don't want to waste your time as well as my time and the resources of MBM.

Mike.

Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 14, 2020, 04:12:54 pm
Subscribed thank you  :-))
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 14, 2020, 05:46:39 pm
All the gear and no idea  :embarrassed:


(https://photos.smugmug.com/Amati-Riva-Aquarama/i-ZpF8nrg/0/3f1dcea7/X4/A7F7E987-F4B8-4B23-93F8-B8AC86761023-X4.jpg)
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Dave_S. on July 14, 2020, 06:22:00 pm
I bought a 1/2 litre of the Marine No.1 for the mahogany parts of a couple of Aeronaut kits. So far, I have been testing it on scrap from the kits to work out the best way to apply to before slapping it on the boat. So I'm keen to watch this as well.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: SteamboatPhil on July 14, 2020, 06:54:36 pm
oooo yes yes yes please, as I have a tin of the varnish, and no matter what I do or how I try it basically comes out dull, flat and just plain rubbish (so far only on test pieces )
Will follow with intrest
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 14, 2020, 11:13:52 pm

Hello all.

It seems that there is interest, so here we go. Just to reiterate, this how I do it, not how you should do it. My technique was arrived at following a lot of testing and trials before actually varnishing the boat. The one that I am building at the moment, the third of 3, will be done in exactly the same way.
I thought that listing the equipment that I use would be a good starting place, but firstly the differences between the 2 LeTonk products.

The Original is my preferred type, it's a tad darker than the No.1 and slower drying. Slower drying leads to more levelling time which allows the brush marks disappear.
It does have it's drawbacks in that at least 48 hrs. need to be allowed before sanding or the sand paper just clogs. It doesn't like temperatures much below 16 degrees, as it takes that much longer to harden, or, above 25/27 degrees as this will affect its self levelling by speeding the drying process up.
Also, most importantly, it MUST be sanded before applying the next coat. You can't get away with sanding every second coat, if you do it will bite you, believe me.

Marine No. I have used this one and it does differ slightly from the Original. I found it somewhat thinner and slightly lighter in colour than the Original, also it dries quicker. On the whole a good varnish and the lighter colour together with faster drying may well suit some people.
The only drawback is that it doesn't quite have the depth of gloss as the Original but it does give a good shine.

The Equipment firstly the brushes, I tried lots on my test pieces from high end types with exotic bristles from different furry animals, to cheap and cheerful bristle ones.
The ones that I settled on are Royal SG711 3/4" with nylon Taclon bristles for the 10th Aquarama.
They do a 1" version which would probably work just as well, in fact I'm using the 1" on my 1/7th scale Riva Special build. Rymans keep SG711 Royal brushes @ £2.49 each or if no Rymans then online @ Red Carpet FX  www.redcarpetfx.com (http://www.redcarpetfx.com). @ £2.79. The 711 series have squared off bristles but if you prefer, the SG950 has oval bristles, I tried both and preferred the squared off one as it cuts in well, gets into corners better and seems to leave less brush marks.
For general cleaning up and brush cleaning I settled on White Spirit made by Bartoline. The brushes seem to clean more thoroughly and perform that little bit better than some other marques. Toolstation keep it and don't charge a premium.
A good quality micro fibre cloth for the final wipe over following sanding before a good thorough wipe over with a tack cloth, then it's ready for the next coat of varnish.
I always filter the varnish from the can into a empty washed Yogurt pot thru' a  120 micron disposable filter. Any unused varnish can then be poured back into the can, there will be a surprising amount unused as a 10th Aquarama will only need a small egg cup full to fully cover the whole boat but unfortunately the paper filters don't fit into an egg cup !!

Sanding I use only aluminium oxide paper, 250 grit for the initial sand then change to 400  to go over it again and finally 600 to finish. This leaves a sort of glaze on the wood and is as smooth as the proverbial baby's bum. Amazon have the sand paper.

Inclusions Don't worry about them, they easily get sanded away. Only the final coat needs a dust free atmosphere for the perfect finish. I do all of the varnishing up to the final coat in my shed which is where I build so is quite dusty. Only the final coat is done in the kitchen. I get everything ready the night before and get up about 6am, before my wife and little dog Albert come down. I creep about not wanting to cause any dust. It's a faff, but it works for me

That's enough for now, will carry on in the next post. Please ask any questions if I've left anything out.

Mike.

Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 15, 2020, 12:01:55 am

Hi, me again.

Forgot to mention....

Varnish Application. I eventually found that thinning the first coat is unnecessary, the varnish doesn't like it anyway. I arrived at the best way is to apply as little as possible, just enough to cover all of the wood without missing any.That helps sanding and drying times. For the perfect finish, more thin coats are far better than lesser thick ones. Also, too much varnish will certainly lead to sags and runs but due to it's super levelling properties and longish drying times there is sufficient time to complete the whole boat, then, check for any sags/runs and if there is, brushing them out and the varnish will still level O.K.

Mike.

Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: RST on July 15, 2020, 01:18:29 am
I don't know this product but I read it as I'm interested in it...

Quote
I eventually found that thinning the first coat is unnecessary

...does it not say spefically not to thin the first coat?  Or did I read that wrong in the general instructions?
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: derekwarner on July 15, 2020, 04:30:35 am
Thanks Mike........I have read a number of French blogs on the Le Tonkinois product, which is reported as the best natural glass like varnish avaible


The only issue is the translations 'gloss' [no pun] over some important comments


Interestingly, there is no importer listed for the product in Australia


Derek 
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 15, 2020, 08:32:11 am
Thanks Mike........I have read a number of French blogs on the Le Tonkinois product, which is reported as the best natural glass like varnish avaible


The only issue is the translations 'gloss' [no pun] over some important comments


Interestingly, there is no importer listed for the product in Australia


Derek
Hi Derek.

Both descriptions are fitting but Glass is particularly fitting.
Re.an importer in Australia. That could possibly change because recently the owner of LeTonkiois has retired and sold out to a German company.
Knowing German efficiency it wouldn't surprise me if they expand the marque globally. I hope that they keep the same recipe for the varnish which is basically that of the ancient Chinese, plus a few modern drying agents.
My favourite saying springs to mind and is quite fitting,"If it ain't broke don't fix it".

Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 15, 2020, 08:51:02 am
I don't know this product but I read it as I'm interested in it...

...does it not say spefically not to thin the first coat?  Or did I read that wrong in the general instructions?
Hi.
The varnish doesn't really like being thinned and does an excellent of penetrating the wood without it, particularly hardwood.
The instructions are somewhat ambiguous, particularly in regard to thinning and spraying. Depending on which you read.
I have tried both and it really doesn't like either, so I don't bother.


Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Klunk on July 15, 2020, 07:12:14 pm
i note after sanding that you do not tack cloth the boat,  is there a reason why your not doing this?
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 15, 2020, 08:13:59 pm
i note after sanding that you do not tack cloth the boat,  is there a reason why your not doing this?

#reply no.5
"For general cleaning up and brush cleaning I settled on White Spirit made by Bartoline. The brushes seem to clean more thoroughly and perform that little bit better than some other marques. Toolstation keep it and don't charge a premium.
A good quality micro fibre cloth for the final wipe over following sanding before a good thorough wipe over with a tack cloth, then it's ready for the next coat of varnish."
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 15, 2020, 08:41:02 pm
i note after sanding that you do not tack cloth the boat,  is there a reason why your not doing this?
Hi Klunk.


If you read the Equipment section again you will see that I did in fact recommend a final wipe over with a tack cloth.


Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 15, 2020, 08:45:15 pm
You beat me to it Taranis.


Thank you.


Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 15, 2020, 09:00:29 pm
Hanging on your every word here  :-))  thank you
Do you recommend any particular brand of tack cloth while on the subject or have I missed that? I’ve only experienced Halfords
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 15, 2020, 11:15:39 pm
Hi Taranis.


I thought that  as a closing post might list the the suppliers that I use for my builds.
Most are online but occasionally can be found locally in many Towns and Cities, what do you think ?


The tack cloths are ProDec, normally from my local Crown/Dulux decorating centre, I think they are national.
My abrasives also from them,  INDASA RHYNALOX PLUS in 5mtr rolls . First cut P240 or P320, second cut P400 and final cut P600.
Hope that helps.


Mike.







Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 16, 2020, 11:57:57 am
Thank you Mike
I've just ordered those tack cloths at £5.10 delivered for 10 from Amazon  :-))


I wonder if on your journey of discovery if you tried the industrial scouring pads that come in three grades red green grey ?
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 16, 2020, 12:18:46 pm
Thank you Mike
I've just ordered those tack cloths at £5.10 delivered for 10 from Amazon  :-))


I wonder if on your journey of discovery if you tried the industrial scouring pads that come in three grades red green grey ?
Good Morning Taranis.


I do have something similar, the are miss shaped offcuts and vary in size, good for our use. All assorted grits an can be washes out for re use when clogged.


You get a box full of assorted box full for little money from Ebay... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-x-WET-AND-DRY-SANDING-BLOCKS-PADS-MIXED-GRADE-OFF-CUTS-Model-Crafts-promo/293330158254?hash=item444bd702ae:g:DAoAAOSwPH9ZgiC3 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-x-WET-AND-DRY-SANDING-BLOCKS-PADS-MIXED-GRADE-OFF-CUTS-Model-Crafts-promo/293330158254?hash=item444bd702ae:g:DAoAAOSwPH9ZgiC3)


Will be posting a couple of pics later showing the results after 3 coats of varnish, just to give you an idea of the results after using the very thin coats.


Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Dave_S. on July 16, 2020, 12:22:04 pm
Have you tried the tack cloths and abrasive pads that the Le Tonkinois chap sells? I bought some of each with my first can of the lacquer, but haven't used them yet.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 16, 2020, 12:28:23 pm
I've never seen those Mike, worth a punt for stock.


These are the pads my local ironmonger sells and they matt acrylic paint off very quickly. Not used on varnish but they clean the bottom of stainless steel pans with ease.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-SbDzBrT/0/XL/i-SbDzBrT-XL.jpg)
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 16, 2020, 01:43:12 pm
I've never seen those Mike, worth a punt for stock.


These are the pads my local ironmonger sells and they matt acrylic paint off very quickly. Not used on varnish but they clean the bottom of stainless steel pans with ease.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-SbDzBrT/0/XL/i-SbDzBrT-XL.jpg)

I see what you mean now Taranis. No, I haven't used these, but, if they can scratch S/S pans they seem far too aggressive for varnish, I fear it may scratch, may be
wrong tho'.

Here are 2 pictures of the sanding of the 3rd coat, showing the results of the Vandal at work. Have shown before and after the first cut, for comparison, 2nd and 3rd cut still to go.

A relatively rare property that LeTonk has, is that it never completely hardens as do the synthetic types. It does harden of sorts but always remains flexible so that any

slight movement in the timber, i.e. temperature/humidity, swelling or shrinking it is handled by the varnish without cracking, unlike polyurethanes and the like

Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 16, 2020, 08:02:30 pm
I think I managed to get the last stock of SG711 brushes  %% 

I feel pretty sure my scouring pads will make a good job of matting back but I'm a while away yet.


The white spirit sold by tool station is Barrettine.
https://www.toolstation.com/white-spirit/p80778 (https://www.toolstation.com/white-spirit/p80778)
Also do a low odour version.
https://www.toolstation.com/low-odour-white-spirit/p22164

Bartoline is also a brand name but not the one at tool station ?
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: RST on July 16, 2020, 08:47:35 pm
I've never seen those Mike, worth a punt for stock.


These are the pads my local ironmonger sells and they matt acrylic paint off very quickly. Not used on varnish but they clean the bottom of stainless steel pans with ease.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-SbDzBrT/0/XL/i-SbDzBrT-XL.jpg)


Those are normally referred to as "scotch brite" pads and very common in engineering and professional paint and finishing. Colour usually denotes abrasive level, you can get them coarse as rough steel wool to almost "non-scratch" you can use on a PTFE pot. They are superb and cheap when used right, can also be used wet.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: derekwarner on July 16, 2020, 11:01:32 pm
The 3M [Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing] giant Company registered the Name Scotch-Brite years ago....they still manufacture the product but there are now many generics


Some of the Le Tonkinois video clips feature these synthetic scourer pads, as the do Steel Wool in grades 0, 00 and 000......which I have never seen


Derek 
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: grendel on July 17, 2020, 07:38:57 am
I used Brava varnish and natural turpentine(same varnish as the full size boat uses), and matted back on the final coat using some king of green finishing cloth from halfords that barely makes a mark when used, but keys up the surface fine- leaving no visible scratches, but sort of matts the surface
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: Taranis on July 17, 2020, 09:33:18 am
Interesting alternative but not in keeping with the intention of Mike's guide as detailed in the opening paragraph. :-))


This is what we are looking for in Mike's own build.
(https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=31896.0;attach=109688;image)
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: grendel on July 17, 2020, 10:01:44 am
Yes I understood that, i was just trying to describe the very fine cloth i used for flatting off, and no, its not in the same league is it.
I think the grit was something like 2500
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 17, 2020, 11:37:12 am
Morning All.

Following the rubbing down and have applied another coat. I didn't say that,(completely forgot), the varnish this time is Vernis Marine No.1, due to the fact that I had

no Classic, but it will help to show the differences between the two. My opinion is that the former just doesn't stand up. It seems more subdued to me but will do for the

time being as I have ordered some Original/Classic

Photos to show this mornings results.

Mike.




Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 17, 2020, 02:56:01 pm
Hello All.

I called Brian at LeTonkinios today to order some varnish and we discussed my slight disappointment with the Marine No.1.
To my surprise he agreed that it is slightly lacking in overall performance when compared to the Classic. Due in part to the new owner.

The owners, for the last year, is the German company that were the suppliers of the all the ingredients that Le Tonkinios used in manufacturing their varnish and have promised not to change anything for the next 2 years which is good news.

Also, Brian extolled the virtues of the Scotch Brite pads that he sells, they look remarkably like the ones that you use Andy. He is sending me some to try so I will give it a go when they arrive. He recommended using them for taking the shine off the the varnish, making it ready for the next coat but not for cutting down any runs/sags or other imperfections as they aren't meant for that.

Will let you know next week.


Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 20, 2020, 11:13:47 pm
That's a good idea Andy, but how do I do that ?


Mike.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: DJW on July 21, 2020, 08:55:04 am
Morning All


I think you were absolutely right to raise the weight issue Mike, then its a question of how far to take it.  It will be interesting to see what the efforts that have been made to reduce weight in Andy's, and my own build will translate to on the water.


Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: DJW on July 25, 2020, 06:11:55 pm
Hi Mike


I've been looking at my mahogany planks to sort the colour variation. Seems there is about 70% good and similar, so will look good together. I'm thinking topsides / hull sides for these. The remaining are in two groups, a slightly orange tinted set and a set that are just less coloured, more washed out.


Would I be correct to think these can be used for the hull planing surface as they're going to be painted..?


And on same subject if thats a yes... What paints have you used on the hull, the white and the red..? And related, did you just varnish the lot as per rest of the boat and add a final paint layer..?


Thanks.
David.
Title: Re: Riva's and LeTonkinois varnish
Post by: ukmike on July 25, 2020, 06:47:07 pm
Evening David.

I use the  odd planks for anything below the waterline and the bottom. I'm lucky with the big one as I had cut my own planking and could reject some of them. I think it can be seen in my last Biggish post, again I'm lucky in that the varnished wood stops just under the "Ailerons", as the French call them,never did know their name.
The paint was applied post varnish. The paint was PlasiKote, it's a modified enamel with quickish drying properties and quite likes sticking to LeTonk. Will be using it on the big one, eventually !!

Mike.