Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: jpdenver on August 09, 2020, 04:30:48 am
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Greetings Steamers,
I recently scored a slightly dusty low mileage Cheddar Proteus.
It has the sensors installed for the ABC (Pressure and Sight-glass) but no electronic control module.
I need the manuals for the set, boiler and engine.
Can anyone provide them for me?
Also - If anyone has any guidance on the use of the ABC sensors? Success or failures?
Thanks,
Jim Pope
Denver, CO USA
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That's a nice ....acquisition/pick-up/find/buy/score %) ....not sure Jim, but try Jerry for Clevedon Steam.......he may be able to assist....... Derek
https://www.clevedonsteam.co.uk/
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Thanks Derek,
Jerry got back to me but he does not have actual copies of the documentation.
However - as it turn out the remainder of the set turned up so I am now in proud
possession of an - OLD-NEW-IN-BOX Cheddar Proteus Horizontal Steam Plant w/ABC.
From the looks of it, never fired, never run, every gear bright and shiny.
A few marks on the end of the driveshaft - might have been from a test fit.
OK, I am gloating. But I consider this a real rare find.
Thanks for putting up with me.
Jim
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Mayhemer KNO3 posted in April 2019 that he had a copy of the Proteus manual........ https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=62870.0
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/69998588@N00/albums/72157622541165244/with/5657343941/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69998588@N00/albums/72157622541165244/with/5657343941/)
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Thanks everyone.
I got one for a Gemini and a Proteus from KNO3.
Does anyone have one for a Pintail?
BTW - flickr requires an account. But thanks for looking anyway.
Regards,Jim
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Jim, you've got a pristine Proteus there. And with the automatic boiler control as a bonus. What a lucky find!
I hope the manuals will come in handy.
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Thanks for your help.
I am now looking for a hull to put it in.
Jim
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It must be a larger hull, since the plant is very heavy. What kind of boat would you like to build?
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May I suggest looking at a Thames Steam Launch and a Royal Navy Picket boat. I have both the Kingston Mouldings Thames Steam launch hull with the additional canopy, plus the drawings, new in the box, unstarted, that would show off the engine and boiler, or, a Kingston Mouldings Royal Navy Picket Boat with plans, 4 inch steam prop, that has been started. This picket boat was intended to have a proteus plant installed, the plant is now going to another project. They are both approx 4feet long and are fine looking classic boats that would make good use of your proteus, the hull for Thames Launch can be seen at
https://www.loyalhannadockyard.com/ (https://www.loyalhannadockyard.com/) under kits - Kingston mouldings.
Good luck selecting a hull, look forward to seeing the finished project
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Here is my thames steam launch, the original was built by John Thornycroft for his father (although the original had a steel hull)
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Thanks for the responses.
I have a test boat called The Greyhounds Revenge (the build is on this forum) - and
She is based upon a Kingston Mouldings - Lady Margaret
Robin built the hull for me and pre-tinted the GRP since I told him
it was going to have a lot of maintenance on it over time and did not want to worry about paint jobs.
Right now it is powered by a D10 with electric feed pump (still being adjusted) -
Here is a test - you can see where it has a lot of open cockpit deck space. -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUp3emHNxtk&t=81s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUp3emHNxtk&t=81s)
So after I get tired of the D10 - I may switch to the Proteus, unless another hull project pops up.
Regards to all -
Stay safe.
Jim
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I finally got around to test running the Proteus.
What a delightful little engine, Makes me wish I kept the Gemini too! Hope Bernard enjoys it, whenever he gets it.
Here is a couple of minutes of her test run.
https://youtu.be/L1p9yrz4NIw (https://youtu.be/L1p9yrz4NIw)
She was very stiff at the beginning, but just needed a little oil in the right places.
If the other two new Proteus owners (from my auctions) read this, make sure you pay attention
to the feed pump, and at least make it re-cycle to keep from burning it up.
Regards,
Jim
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Runs very smooth indeed. Have you found a suitable boat?
I think thins one would be the perfect plant for a powerful tugboat.
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Thanks for the responses.
Raphael - if you see this,
On my You-tube page you commented on the Proteus trial run.
and I think you said that your proteus pump was not working.
Mine was working just fine, with the bypass valve open, the water
pumped back into the tank, You can see this when I pick up the tube and show it flowing.
When I closed the valve, the water pumped into the boiler.
The reason I am bringing this up is not to just boast about it,
but instead to see if I can help. When I was handling the estate
sale last month, I came across an engineering drawing for the pump,
and was wondering if it might help you with your problem.
I will say that I have seen it mentioned in a number of places
that it is very important to keep the pump actually pumping water
in order to keep it from running dry and ruining it.
So - have you opened up the pump and looked at the
nitrile balls that are used inside?
The drawing is a large format, I will get it scanned and post it here.
Regards,
Jim
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Bonjour James,
Thank you for your feed back I have change the metal balls by nitrile ones, also changed the check valve and set the screws to let the balls have a minimum of movment.
I think that the problem comes from the piston rod which is possibly worn in the pump as I does not deliver enough pressure drain the water then push it into the boiler.
When te water comes above the pump : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6nuByugp0
At the pump level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpoyLn94_FE
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Hello Raphael, does the pump loose water at the seals around the piston? If not, then a worn piston is unlikely.
Nitrile balls are very good and should seal perfectly.
What can often happen with small pumps is that air can gather in the pipes. Because air is compressible, the pump might not move enough volume to suck enough water in to push the air out. You would need to air out the pipes. This can be done by removing the top screw from the clack valve on Cheddar units. Let the pump run until water comes out through the open clack valve, then close it off again with the screw.
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Bonjour Calin,
I will follow your opinion and open clack valve to see if water comes. As there is no leak at he pump level, perhaps should I also tighten a little more the balls.
Besides this, I do not finf that an horizontal pump is the best idea for a direct driven one whish is very fast. And my machine is quite old...
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You should also check if the replacement nitrile ball valves are not too small. Perhaps they have too much lateral play, and maybe then they do not always return to their seat.
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Here is a drawing as old as your engine!but maybe it will help.
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Bonjour,
Many thanks to both of ypu I amsure that yout ideas and drawings will help me :-)) [size=78%] [/size]
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Hey -
We may all be in lock-down, but what are friends for?
Take care,Jim
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Bonjour James,
I wish I will be able one day to meet all the steam passionate who have kindly spent some time and ideas to help me ok2
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Me too, my friend, me too.
Stay safe,Jim
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Jim many thanks for posting the drawing of the pump and its settings.
I recently had to reset the ball valves on my Cheddar Puffin engine pumps, this is what I found. I stupidly forgot that when disassembling the lock nut and nut that they both needed to be undone at the same time to maintain the settings. Anyway, what I found was that the Nitrile balls were larger by 0.004" than they should have been, perhaps they swell over time? any way they were not moving freely in the gage assembly. So replaced them with new Nitrile balls. When setting them up I used a steel ball, screwed the fitting into place until I could feel the ball, then measured the distance from the back of the pump to the front of the fitting with a micrometer, then undid the fitting by 0.010" for the pump inlet and made a note of the new dimension, however by experimentation found the pumps delivered a higher flow rate if the outlet was set at 0.020". Once the fitting had been backed off by the required amount 0.010" the fitting was undone and the steel ball replaced by the Nitrile ball, the fitting was then replaced and screwed in and checked it was at the new list before tightening the lock nut. From the Puffin instructions it appears ram seals may also need to be replaced from time to time. Hope the sharing this experience is of assistance to you and others in setting up these pumps.
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All of the technical test data confirms that Buna N, or Nitrile by another name has infinitesimally low values of swell in water, however the simple fact is it does swell over age...compression set is also a fact of life
Industrial grade Nitrile balls are ground to a BS or DIN Tolerance with respect to both roundness and diameter........
Lower grade/cost Nitrile balls are not ground on the diameter [many have a diametrical spew line] so could be more than a few thousandth +/- on diameter and also egg shaped O0
One would question the cavity diameter design, where a a Nitrile ball that was 0.004" oversized or egg shaped, so as to preclude the free fall or movement of the ball under suction condition & failed to seal/seat ..there is absolutely no need for the ball in this application to seal both on the seat and the OD
The same applies to the gland seal on the pump shaft.........an O-ring [or two :o ] will suffer from compression set even at low pressures created from the pump pressure or the containment force exerted in the gland housing
The important thing here is you have resolved a rather minor sealing issue :-))
Derek
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Hello again.
I spent the last month handling the auctions that some of you participated in.
Many thanks from the family. A little over $12K USD was raised.
Now integrating the Proteus I bought into a hull.
I decided to pull the D10 from one of my hulls and fit the Proteus in.
It has the ABC (Automated Boiler Control) so I have some extra plumbing to do.
Here is a rough placement:
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The Proteus steam plant looks almost small in that boat. How large is it?
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This is a "Lady Margaret" hull from Kingston Mouldings.
45" long and 12" at the widest point. Gives me lots of open space to work with.
JP
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Shall watch your progress with this installation with interest, looking forward to seeing it up and running
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MARTIN - Can you change the subject to just: Cheddar Proteus
Thanks, Jim
Time to resurrect this conversation.
I have spent the last 6 months in the Pleasure Boat forum as I was
building an electric boat for my "winter build" - The Bluebird of Chelsea.
Now that the weather has warmed up and I can get back into my shop
without frostbitten fingers, it is time to startup again.
I brought out the "Greyhounds Revenge" and re-started on the install of the Proteus.
I have not ever used one of the electronic boiler controls, I have only used the BIX-029 from Forest Classics.
In addition I have never used a feed pump successfully. So since the engine came with the full ABC system,
which did both, I figure "no time like the present".
I will add pics as I go, I have some reading to do to get what the original manufacturer had in mind for setup and calibration.
More to come.
Hopefully you might find this interesting.
Regards,Jim
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Bonjour,
For fun, I have the same hull with a siren which requires pressure : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3di8bgw14EU
And in another boat, the same steam plant but unfortunately, I have nevr been yet able to make the water pump operate, nitrile or metal balls :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpoyLn94_FE
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So I pulled the Greyound's Revenge down off the rack and since I did not leave any payment for
the "workshop gnomes" over the winter, she was just like I left her in October.
I decided that I needed to check out and verify the operation of the sensors and get a handle
on how the ABC system was supposed to work.
So I read the manual, and made the connections to the control unit.
I attached the servos w/ valves as well, but just hooked the bypass of the pump
directly to the tank. The gas valve I left un-piped.
Then I fired her up and watched the indicators on the controller to confirm the operation of the sensors.
When the valve on the tank moved, I manually opened the bypass, or closed it depending on the sensor.
The same with the gas. when the set pressure was reached, and the leds changed, I manually closed the valve on the tank a little.
So doing this for about an hour let me know that the sensors worked, and I as time for the next step.
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Some explanation on the tanks.
Back when I first built the 'Revenge I planned on trying to incorporate a feed-pump into the craft.
Since the design of the boat was 100% freeform, made-up, no resemblance to reality, I decided to go with
a tank design that added to the feel I was getting from the boat.
When I got the ABC kit with the Proteus, it came with a "water tank sensor" that worked better with a vertical
tank rather than a horizontal one. Since I had a number of "scale" 50 gallon drums, I added one to the mix, and then
adjusted the tank sensor to fit the new tank.
All three tanks are hooked up in "common", in that they all feed a central connection to the inlet on the pump.
There is also an additional piece of tubing at the top of the new tank to the adjacent horizontal one to allow for
faster evening out of the levels.
I only have to use one fill point, and it disperses to all three. Since the final "full" waterline is actually above the inlet port
of the pump I feel the priming of the pump will be less of a hassle.
As always,
Thanks for reading.
Regards to all,
Jim Pope
Hilltop Boatworks
Denver, CO USA
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Topic renamed on request :-))
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Thanks Martin.
So after a study of the manual, I decided I needed to test the
gas valve and see how it behaved. Since the boiler and burner was
already installed, I pulled out a Stuart Burner I had bought some time ago
when I thought I would try my hand at boiler making.
I set it up with the gas valve in line and played with the high and low settings.
On the low side there is a "pilot" valve that is adjustable. The high side is basically
just on and off.
So I fired it up on "high" until the burner got good and warmed up.
Then brought it down to "low" and tweaked the pilot valve to a nice
low setting. I then put a drop of "blue" locktite (the reworkable type)
on the pilot valve to hold it in place.
I realize that the burner on the Proteus Boiler is a bit larger and may operate
slightly differently, but barring a disassembly, I think I have a good chance at
getting close.
Once I finished the tests, I coiled the copper tubing and fit the gas valve to the
Boiler and Gas tank.
As soon as the rain stops and I can get back on my patio, I will fire her up
and see how she runs automatically.
So more to come.
Here are pictures of the flame tests and the final configuration.
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Hi Jim and all those in this section,
This steam power plant looks fantastic! I’ve strayed off the pleasure boat section briefly to see your alternative world over here. However as I haven’t a clue what you folks are talking about and it all looks extremely complicated, I shall retreat again and return to “simple” electric power I think!
Lovely looking power plants and boats!
Stuw
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Hi Jim....
Un-cluttered :o , but not sure which direction the water is being radio controlled? [assumed as open/closed?...as metered flow control would b difficult to achieve with the Double L shaped wire connection between the servo & the water valve?]....... %) .....
Derek
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Jim, that's a good steam plant, I have the same boiler and full ABC system that runs fine. You are right to try and achieve self priming for the pump. It will be much better if the water connections from the pump to the boiler are copper rather than silicone, not so important on the suction side if it is self priming. Take great care with the pump if you decide to check the ball valves, make sure that you note the distances the valves are screwed in, use two spanner's so as not to upset the relationship between the locking nut and the distance the valve body is screwed in, since the lift heights of the balls, in particular on the suction side are crucial, they are set to a few thousands of an inch. Do not be tempted to run the engine without having a water supply to the pump, it does not do the ram seals any good.
Re the gas jet holder, the position of the jet into the burner is very important, if you look through the air holes to the burner the jet should be visible, for the recommended jet, the jet should be seen through the holes and should be leaving less then half the hole open to entrain primary air. The distance the burner is placed into the flue is also important. When set up inaccordance with the manufacturers instructions I have found this system to be very good, it should give you many hours of happy steaming.
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Stuw,
Thanks for taking a peak at the Steam World. Yes there are as many tubes in steam plants as there are wires in electric ones.
You just need to take care where and how you connect them. ok2 If you remember I blew the sides off the Chimarea by mis-wireing a
pair of batteries. So both worlds have their hazards. :D
Derek,
Hows life down-under? Am I right to assume that your time on-the-water is coming to an end for the year just as
ours is starting? Or are you lucky enough to have time year-round?
As to your question on the water valve. You do not see from the picture that the routing goes like this:
Feed water:
3 tanks - two side tanks and 1 50 gal drum. all three combine to feed the inlet of the pump. in the picture this is on the
far side of the engine. When full, the water level is just above the inlet on the pump. I am hoping that gravity will provide a little
pressure to aid in priming the pump.
Outlet:
Dual outlets - one with a manual bypass valve - outlet one to the boiler via a check valve.
outlet two goes to the servo valve by the water drum. It comes in the bottom and then out and in the top of the tank.
The servo-valve is on/off and is controlled by the ABC unit via the sensor on the sight-glass. ON - closes the valve forcing the water
to the boiler. The manual bypass valve is wide open when using the ABC.
Use of silicone tubing in the system:
By and large this is temporary. Once I see how she runs, I will replace the longer silicone runs with copper. I will probably keep the shorter
pieces to allow some flexibility (like the link between the top of the drum and the tank next to it.
Because of the way I piped them, the three tanks are "self-leveling" so the water should be drawn down evenly.
By keeping the water level at around the 50-60% level in the boiler,
I hope to reduce the amount of excess water in the exhaust and not overflow the collection tank.
But I have not a clue if that will be the case. So I might have to add another "oil drum" on that side.
I have a little more to do, just to keep Raphael happy I need to add a servo for the whistle. {-)
Then some test runs on the patio as I have yet to run the engine all the way thru the fill cycle to see which lasts
longer - the gas or the water.
Then some more carpentry to enclose the "ugly" electronics.
Thanks for reading -
Jim
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System Test#1
The boiler was filled about 1/2 way.
The gas tank was filled to the usual - just started to "Splash Back".
The side tanks were filled to capacity, and the oiler filled and sealed.
With everything hooked up and tanks filled, I fired up the burner.
And turned on the stopwatch.
Since the Engine, Boiler and the rest was Old-New-In-Box, I need to break it in.
So lots of oil on moving parts and running at a slow constant speed.
Usually when I fire up a boiler I need to just open the tank valve a crack and then
wait for a couple of minutes before opening it more, this allows the burner to heat up
and gets the flame fully involved. Once opened, the gas valve can go to the pilot position and then back open without blowing out the flame.
Well, on this one it may be that the servo gas valve is not fully open, because it seems that the
flow is not as great as I would expect. The servo does shift from - open to pilot, it seems that "open" could do more.
DBS88 - On your system, does the gas valve seem to reduce pressure even when it is "wide open"?
So I cracked the valve on the tank, lit the flame, and after a minute turned up the valve on the tank
a couple of turns. Got a good heat flow out the chimney, and the boiler started to heat up.
Here is the timing:
4:33 the little anti-syphon ball valve in the steam chamber at the top pops up and stays up.
8:30 Pressure gauge lifts off the peg and approaches 10PSI
10:00 15 PSI - Manually turned the prop and cleared the "hydro-lock"
13:00 30 PSI - Started the engine, running at a "medium speed"
15:00 50 PSI - Boiler valve cutoff lowered the sensor a little.
Ran at about 40PSI continuously Gas valve going on and off
59:00 Stopped the engine. for a check of oil and water levels.
Let cool - 15 minutes or so.
Opened oiler - just about an 1/8 inch of oil on top. The rest was water.
Opened the sludge exhaust tank - FULL.
Checked the water tanks - about 1/2 full.
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The Water / Boiler Feed System
This was hard to really get good read on. Right after the boiler started to build a head of steam,
the bubbles started to go up and down the sight glass, and while the bypass valve opened and shut, it was hard to see a smooth up/down flow, too many bubbles.
When I let the boiler cool down, the water was about 1/2 up the sight glass.
about 25% lower than at start. So the pump did not keep up with the use,
but SOME water made it into the boiler, as the water level was down in the feed tanks.
DBS88 - Can it be that the silicone tubing is too flexible and when used on the outlet of the pump just expands and contracts
so the pressure does not get directed against the boiler clack valve?
On another point, I got an 45 minute run time before the exhaust goop tank filled up. So thats a pretty good run,
even if the pump is not working the most efficiently. I guess I could add another exhaust tank to get a longer run
before it fills up, but honestly, the 45 minutes is a pretty good run.
Any ideas or comments from the you folks on the other shore?
Regards,
Jim.
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Nice running report!
Silicone tubing on the water feed pipe to the boiler is a bad idea, because it expands when the pump tries to push the water towards the clack valve. Replace it with brass or copper pipe.
A very good remedy against air bubbles in the water gauge is to insert a thin wire inside, for the full length of the glass tube. This helps the bubbles rise and the water gauge will show the true water level. In your case, having the water sensor on the glass tube, you should check that the wire does not upset this sensor. You can experiment with different materials.
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Hi, re the silicon pipe on the pressure side of the pump should be replaced with copper so that the pump works efficiently, remember you are trying to overcome the boiler pressure up to 60 psi before you get any water into the boiler. Re the gas tank I crack the gas tank valve enough to light the boiler, then once lit I open the gas tank valve a couple of turns to ensure full flow to the gas jet, which size jet are you using? The sensor controlled gas flow valve is either fully open or at the pilot setting, it does not vary it’s position. I have noticed that the gas tank cools and lowers the gas flow rate reducing burner performance. Whilst I have not timed my boiler getting upto pressure I feel from experience that those times should be faster to achieve pressure, the manufacturer suggests five minutes to reach 60 psi. Hope this helps, Dave
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....Jim says.....'59:00 Stopped the engine. for a check of oil and water levels.......Opened the sludge exhaust tank - FULL.'
So we see here the run limit is that magic ~~1 hour, as if you continued the de-oiler would have been blowing dirty oily water up & out of the exhaust
Mind you......after 60 minutes you would probably appreciate a well earned cup of tea or coffee :P
Could you decant the oily water from the de-oiler, then blow down the lubrication water back into the de-oiler, with residual boiler pressure?
Then prepare for another 60 minute re-run, or lunch & go home? %)
Derek
PS...[sorry, just checked, the lubrication doesn't appear to have a bottom-mounted drain line & valve.........could be a good modification O0 ]
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Taking all the advice to heart, Started the replacement of the silicone tubing with copper.
At the same time I replaced the exhaust de-oiler with another 50 gal drum.
I also replaced the exhaust tubing with a greater diameter copper tube and
replaced the output black rubber tube as well.
Then I replaced the short feed water piece up to the pump inlet.
Followed by the outlet bypass run to the cutoff valve.
I put a coupling in line to allow for an easy disconnection.
So far so good. I will do the last pieces of silicone when the tanks are empty.
More to come.
Thanks for reading.
Jim
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So - two more things to look at.
1. The gas valve.
If you look at the first picture, the gas valve is "open" or calling for full gas.
As I said in previous posts, the boiler took a while to get up to steam, and
I thought that perhaps the open position was too "short" if you picture the
lever traveling in an arc, I do not think it went far enough.
Second/third picture - Due to a lack of longer servo arms that fit the gear on the top of the
only servo I had that was small enough to fit on the bracket, I added a piece as an extension.
Then I ran air thru the valve to do a bubble test and make sure that the two final positions would actually work as full-on and pilot.
fourth picture - The reworked valve in position, and working great,
The final "on" may be a little past the point that it needed to be, but
when fired up, the boiler did come up to heat faster.
I did not get a chance to do a full run, as I was in the garage and the
carbon monoxide detector started to complain.
2. Replace last piece of the silicone tubing.
In my "box of scraps and stuff" I found a piece of tubing
that had nuts and cones attached. It was just a little too long,
but since it was already in finished state, I made it work.
Picture five - you can see the final result. Someday I will get better
at bending tubing and making every piece with nice results.
For now, I think that I should design some floor grates to walk on so
the crew doesn't trip over all the tubes running underfoot. %)
That takes care of all the silicone in the feed water system except for the
last piece AFTER the bypass valve that dumps back into the tank. I think that
I want to see the air bubbles just to be sure that water is moving.
The weekend is over, and I need to do my day job next week, so I might be able
to get on the water next weekend, the weather should be good and the water
level in the local pond is definitely on the rise.
So - Thanks for reading.
Jim
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Well done that’s great progress. Re the gas valve opening, once you have the pilot set, the valve only needs to open enough so that More gas can flow through the valve than can be passed through the tiny hole in the gas jet. Re positioning of the gas jet from the photo the jet holder looks very high in the burner, the jet itself should be visible through the primary air supply holes, it should be partially blocking the hole with a gap of about 4-5mm between the bottom of the hole and the bottom of the jet. Which size gas jet are you using, if it’s too big and or the settings are not optimised then you will have a bad smell and a carbon monoxide problem. With the settings right the boiler will heat much quicker than your first timings and the carbon monoxide shouldn’t be a problem.
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Jim......with the greatest respect.........you have a few thousand $ spent between the engine & boiler, then attaching and expecting these to be controlled and be precise <*< via 20 cents worth of bent wires between components :o
Replace these bent bits of wire with quality design components for ~~ $20.00, & you will have a platform to start the adjustments for the results you are expecting :-))
Derek
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I too was wondering about all the bends and kinks in a couple of the push-rods. Then I realized he was probably using these push-rods just to get things running. When he's happy with the operation of the steam plant my bet is he'll re-make them out of the "GOOD STUFF" using these as templates.
Don
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Don, Derek, Dave -
OK, OK - I'll get rid of the paper clips. :embarrassed:
Stopped by the hobby store today and picked up some linkage parts. When I get back home
next weekend I will re-work the linkages. At the time all I had were some clevises that were longer
than the space I needed to span.
Dave,
The jet is an 8. You are probably right in that I am running very rich, too much air. I will reset it lower in the tube.
Thanks for the feedback guys. Really - sometimes the obvious needs to be pointed out.
That's why we all come here right?
More to come this weekend.
Take care, get your shots, wear your masks.
Regards to all,Jim
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I spent Sunday working on the linkages.
I also adjusted the jet in the holder to close up the gap in the air passage.
The Results:
Initial burner ignition to 30 PSI - 5 min 15 sec.Total run time - until feed tanks are empty - 45 Min.
Average running pressure - 50 PSI.
There was still gas in the tank at the end of the run.
Hopefully the new linkages will meet with Derek's approval - ok2
More to come - I might get her on the water next weekend.
Thanks for reading.
Jim
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Looking very tidy now Jim O0 ...is that yellow/gold bodied servo the engine reversing gear still to go? :-X .......
I am sure you will find these linkages will now allow more precise set points especially when the servo's are connected to a rotary valve with a fully shut point <*< , but not overdone
Does this reversing linkage on the engine vibrate when the engine is running with the quadrant arc vague? [Saito engines display this]
You made mention of some wooden slat boards for the engine floor to cover the aluminium plate........these wooden boards [with big gaps] will also add to the overall vista :-))
Derek
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Well done that’s a great result and a big improvement on heating time. I am looking forward to seeing it on the water. As a matter of curiosity how much oil was left in the displacement oiler after 45 mins running?
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There was a full review of the Proteus engine by Peter Arnot in the January 1997 issue of Model Boats. Basically an excellent engine but needs quite a lot of running in and a very positive link to the reverse lever. In fact he made the engine just turn over when in the off position so reverse would engage easier.
Cheers
Geoff
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Derek,
The linkage on the reversing servo is going to stay until the next time I pull the engine out.
The reversing lever does not really vibrate much, but tends to "snap" from one position to the other,
which I attribute to the gears changing direction. I chose a heavy duty metal geared hi torque servo
with a metal arm to provide rigidity. The linkage is very stiff and has very little play.
I use the right hand stick on my controller -the side to side is the rudder. Pulling it "down" is reverse,
springs back up and into forward at neutral. The setup is only 50% (down motion only). The trim switch
takes care of any fine tuning. I assume that others use this same setup.
I have another test run or two to go before I will be confident and lock everything down and hide it under decking and
other boxes and barrels.
------------
Dave,
After the 45 min run there was just a thin (1/8") layer of sludgy oil left in the displacement oiler. Below that was water. So not completely out. But close.
That tells me that the feed water / oil reservoir ratio is just about right. More water - the oil would run out. We all know that the engine will not
immediately get damaged, but best not to test fate.
When the water gets low, the system throws open the valve and re-circulates the remaining water to keep the pump happy. It also flashes a LED
to tell you the tank is at the cutoff point. I will need to find a place for it that can be seen, but is not totally stupid to look at.
My club is planning a first fun-run of the season on next Sunday. I hope to have her in the pond then.
More to come.
Thanks,
Jim
-
Geoff,
Any chance you have a copy of the article?
I like to collect as much documentation as I can.
Thanks,
Jim
-
Yes,
[/size][size=78%]But I'm not sure how to get a copy to you as I don't have a working scanner - suggestions welcome![/size]
Cheers
Geoff
-
I have sent Jim a scan of the article, he emailed me direct.
Colin
-
Geoff,
Colin beat me to this response.
Thank you for the effort to find the article.
It did shed some light on the subject.
Colin,
Again many thanks for being an excellent resource.
Regards to all.
More to come
Jim
-
So - More test runs.
Boiler/gas control - flawless.
Water pump control - working pretty well. But a question:
The use of a piece of wire in the sight glass to "pop" bubbles -
How big of a piece- meaning diameter.
Just a single strand of copper?
22 ga Piece?
larger?
Also - I need some ideas:
When the tanks start empty, there are three pipes all coming together for the
inlet to the pump. Two of the tanks are horizontal and are about 1 1/2 inch above the deck,
the third is a 50 gal drum. There is an overflow pipe between one of the horizontal tanks and
the drum at the top. The bypass also dumps into the drum at the top.
The tanks all start full at about the same level due to laws of gravity.
After running for a while the horizontal tanks empty first, or at least one does because I start to see a lot of air in the outlet tube after the bypass valve.
A couple of times there seems to be a point when no water flows, I think the air in the
inlet is locking up the balls in the valves. An "air lock"? I am not sure what to do about it.
So -any ideas?
Thanks,Jim
-
Hullo Jim...you are certainly progressing on very well, however I am still a little confused
Looking at my mockup below, we see the 44 gallon drum can only be filled to same level as the breathers twin side tanks
The only way to fullly fill the 44 gallon drum would be to install vertical standpipes on the twin tank breathers
So yes, in theory, each of the 3 tanks should empty at an equal rate , however in our Model world, the tank with the shortest length suction line to the pump will be the source where you break fluid suction and induce air, via pump suction
When suction is lost, there is literally zilch can be achieved to change this........... <*<
If you installed those vertical standpipes to the twin tanks breather lines, you could gain additional run time by filling the 44 gallon drum
However, if you are getting a 30 minute run time, I wonder if you could better spend your time bringing the vessel to shore.........check lubrication, top up the water.....regas the tank....have a cup of Coffee .......a chat with onlookers who are amazed with real steam O0
The only slow process %) I see here is the size of the water tank filling points........and the small bore of the interconnecting tube bore size
How do you find the pump bypass filling rate adjustment setting against the boiler pressure?....a complex trial and error process?
Looking forward to seeing progress with the floor plates & a video of the steam plant in the water
-------------------------
Bubbles in the water gauge :o
If you have the single strand of #22 Gauge copper wire? ....try it ...if it works ...well issue of the bubbles answered
1. where do the bubbles in boiling water come from?
2. are the exploding bibbles of gas helping to clean the internal surface of the boiler water sight glass?
A whole new subject..... :-X
Derek :-))
-
Derek,
Life is an illusion -
In this case the picture does not tell you that the top of the horizontal tanks (the breathers) are approximately
at the same elevation as the TOP of the 50 Gal drum. The little rubber tube between the drum and the tank
is right below the top edge of each.
The horizontal tanks are on stilts or legs or standoffs - whichever you are wanting to call them.
So as I fill the tank (next to the drum) it flows down into the combined manifold, and also when at the top
over into the drum. and hopefully the water levels are just that - level.
So I think the solution is to run the plant until the horizontal tanks are empty, which will leave about a 1/2 drum
for re-circulation. If I pull the level sensor up in the drum it will tell me when the level is met and the system will
circulate the remaining water.
But you are right - Praise from the non-participants is a nice thing too. So maybe trying to break the
all time "run-time" record (Is there one?) is not necessary.
Thanks for the tip on the wire.
I am not sure where the bibbles come from, they tend to be large and lazy as opposed to active,
I doubt that glass cleaning should be expected. Sometimes it is from above where a "splut" of
water goes into the top of the glass and traps a bubble so the sensor thinks it needs to keep pumping
into the boiler. A few times I have seen them right at the bottom of the glass and they bounce around when you
"rock the boat".
More to come.
Thanks again,
Jim
-
Wel sure is an illusion :o ...but, now understand the setup :-))
So firstly...those on-lookers could be next years steam boat builders, so we should help promote our Hobby
I see youngsters at our 5" Gauge track in awe of the complexity and ........is it a real fire in the boilers ?
It would be interesting to know the water usage from the volume in the 2 tanks + 75% of the boiler so consumed to provide that ~~ 30 minute run......it is also a critical reference back for you as you indicate water is out before gas is consumed & it is not really advisable to run a dry boiler
The bubbles in the water are from naturally occurring entrained [dissolved] air in water....as the water reaches boiling point [100 degrees C or [[212 F, the dissolved air changes state into a gas & into those little bubbles ;) ......The copper slither is not used in 5" gauge boilers as the water gauge is usually inclined to about 30 degrees down from the vertical had hence the weight of the slither is such that it does not 'float' as they do in vertical glass gauges
Looking forward to further posts
Derek
-
Here is a better view of the tank arrangement.
I need to do a little bit of leveling.
I will do an accurate measurement of water capacity and use in the coming days.
Test on the water tomorrow at the pond.
Later,Jim
-
Here she is on the water today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZNZBKwJWyE
You can not see it but a storm came up behind us so only time for a short run.
More to come in the near future.
Thanks for reading -
Jim
-
Jim, your boat looks great and runs very well, good speed. What propeller size are you using?
-
Thanks for the kind remarks.
The Prop is a 5 blade - 3 Inch.
Moves her right along.
More to come,
Jim
-
Very interesting, it is the first time I see a 5 blade propeller used in a model boat. Have you experimented with different propellers? If yes, I'd like to hear about the results.
-
Bonjourn
Calin, Propshop used to make this kind of propeller, example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6JifAmlRAM
And a friend made also one for my D10 tugboat Ulysse Max : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3UcPm7zq7g as I had no room to install a 4,5" four blades I prefer for my D10.
-
Hello !
Absolutly lovely and well built ,JP! :-))
I see on your videos that you also built the Lady X .
Impressive.
Thanks for sharing . ok2 ķ
-
I wish I could sat that I analyzed the torque output of the engine,
and the studied the angles and the expected thrust from the prop,
but the truth is - I found the prop in a junkbox and thought it look
like an interesting fit.
Thanks for watching my videos.
Because I did not do a steam version, the build log for my
Lady X variant on the Project X from Brian Marten and Liz Howes is in the
pleasure craft forum,
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,65968.0.html (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,65968.0.html)
More to come - Thanks for reading and all the comments.
Regards,
Jim Pope
Denver, CO USA
-
Thanks for all replies re. prop.
-
Not quite on topic
I spent yesterday assembling a new test tank.
-
Going into Submarines Jim, or is it those long-legged Dog's bath? {-) ..................... Derek
-
Hi Derek,
Actually the pool is next door.
My daughter and family live there and it was time to set up for the summer.
But it will make a nice float tank.
In the meantime it rained an inch today, so it was a good day to continue working on the 'Revenge.
Adding the new grates to the lower deck so my crew does not trip over the pipes.
First build the grates, then make a template out of card for the fit. and finally cut the grates to fit.
I had a bunch of basswood planks, (like Lime) and stained them a rich maple color. Once all is cut and
fitted into sections, I will add a couple of layers spar varnish.
Tomorrow is supposed to be another rainy day, and here in the US, it is a holiday, Memorial Day, where we honor
those that served in the military.
I will track the progress on the floor grates and finishing up the cockpit decor.
Thanks for reading,
Jim
-
Those pins are a great looking detail.
-
I continued to work on the grates.
Assembled 4 sets, then I worked on the fit by using card as a template and then
cutting the grate to match.
Tested the fit in the boat and then added a deck up in the bow.
Here are the pics.
More to come.
Jim
-
Problems on the water :((
I took her out for a run over the weekend.
Let's see if I can explain the situation.
The boiler was filled to the top of the site-glass - I could just see the bottom of the bubble.
I filled my water tanks - about 350ML total. I steamed her up. Took about 5 minutes to 60 PSI.
Then I put her in the water and ran her around for about 15 minutes. Brought her back by the shore,
and noticed that the "low-water" led from the controller was flashing. I also saw that the boiler height
was still high on the glass (no air-bubble visible) and pressure was right at 60psi. The hand valves were all in the
right place. The servo-controlled bypass valve was in the proper position and I could see some bubbles running thru it.
So this tells me the pump was pumping and that the tubes were not blocked.
-- What I think is happening --
I think that the diameter of the tube running from the pump over to the servo-bypass valve is constricted by the couplings and
the cones used. So even if servo-valve is open there is still enough resistance to push back into the boiler. The manual valve on the
pump is open 6 turns, so that should not be a factor.
-- What to try --
I am going to first of all go thru the couplings and ream out the cones to maximize the diameter. Then try things out.
After that I will see how she runs and try again.
More to come -
Jim
-
Well.... {:-{
1. open the window in the Guests bathroom [ensuring adequate air flow to minimize any chance of CO2 poisoning]
2. place the vessel in the test tank ensuring you repeat the water filling and valve positions as noted below
3. secure the vessel with adequate sponson buffers & ropes
4. light the boiler & get a large cup of coffee
5. repeat previous voyage nominal engine run time & speeds.........wait & recheck to establish a low water danger signal light
6. if you find a danger signal light alarm, open the hand pump & perform a few strokes??
7. the Controller >>:-( mmmmm.........maybe needs investigation or bypass...
8. as you have established time run values, is the controller....... is it really necessary?.... unless you need to be alarmed
....at the danger signal light when she returns to shore, to be sure %)
Let us know how you go, or alternately provide a sketch of the controller circuit including the switch/float method <*< of detecting the water level
Derek
-
Hi Jim was the flashing light the one on the abc unit to say that water was required in the boiler or was it the separate high intensity red led that indicates the water level in the water tanks is low? Bearing in mind everything was previously running well, it suggests something simple has changed so as Jim proposes a test run under close observation would be wise to gather evidence to confirm or make an alternative diagnosis before getting the tools out. Hope all goes well, Dave
-
Dave and Derek,
Thanks for the feedback.
The LED that was flashing was the "Tank is almost empty" warning.
So it turns out that I pumped all the tank water into the boiler, and the bypass
did not open enough to accomplish what it was supposed to do.
So I saw a possible problem with the flow in the bypass and also the adjustment of the servo-bypass valve it self.
I took the bypass piping off the boat and looked at both ends - They are vary different.
Photo1 - The pump connection.
Photo2 - The end at the Servo-valve.
Photo3 - There is a short piece that makes up a 90deg ell and connects to the servo valve - I took that off and
found there was a yet another size hole.
Photo 4 and 5 shows the continued constriction.
SO - I reamed out the cones at the elbow connection end and opened them up to the maximum, the ID of the
tube.
Then I took out the servo-valve and re-positioned the arm to better align with the servo.
I am beginning to think that I might need a longer arm on the servo to get more rotation on the valve, but I am
going to live with the one I have in place for now. It is small compact, and seems to work well.
Strength and speed as not really really a factor.
With all that done, and the system back installed, I added 350ML to the water tanks, Then I fired it up.
Good steam after 5 min, smooth running. The water level in the boiler was where it was at the end of Saturday's run -
very full. Higher than I would normally go.
The system started in by-pass mode, and it took almost 30 minutes to get the water level back to the middle of the glass.Then the system called for water for the boiler, the servo valve closed and the water level crept back up. I checked the level
in the make-up tanks and it was full at the point that the boiler was starting to ask for more.
Then she ran for another 30 minutes with the servo valve opening and closing. before the "out of water" light came on.
At this point There was still another 15 minutes of water in the boiler (to get to the bottom of the glass).
The end result - so far - 75 minutes full run time - using a slow-medium cruising speed.The displacement oiler still had a little sludge in it.
The condensate tank was full and spitting out the stack. (need to do something about that).
So I should be able to have ample cruising speed and my usual attention span of about an hour without any problem.
Lots of whistle toots, and slow cruising by the little ones at the side of the pond.
After all - that is what we do this for - right?
I am going to move on to the rest of the decorating and crew selection.
More runs to come.
Thanks for reading.
Jim
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Sorry Jim...it failed to register :embarrassed: , that you were talking about a Cheddar ABC controller ........... Derek
-
Derek,
:-)) That is what we, here in the States, call "A penetrating glimpse into the obvious".
or a Brain Fart. {-)
But that is OK, your insights are always welcome, and your experience provides a knowledge base that
far exceeds mine.
Some day we really should try a Zoom Gathering for the forum. Just to be able to all say "Hello"
Regards to all -
Jim
-
hello !
Investigation , Evaluation , Execution,! Well done JP ! :-))
One question though : do you really think that the difference in diameter of the cones have an impact on this low flow rate ?
Always a pleasure to follow up your posts !
And regards. :-)
-
HOT HOT HOT
It is 100 F in Denver this week. And one of my Air Conditioning systems needs a part.
We had to move out of the upstairs bedrooms and into the guest room on the first floor.
My shop in the garage just has a fan blowing hot air around. ARRGH >:-o
But by working in the mornings and quitting before lunch, I got the floor grates finished up and installed.
Then I built a deck up in the bow to cover the stuff up there more completely.
-
I also built a couple of boxes to cover the servo valves.
-
And finally the Crew comes on board!
-
So
The last bench test before she joins the rest of the fleet.
When last we posted about the engine and boiler feed system, I was getting a little frustrated with the filling system.
The ABC unit from Cheddar was working as expected, it was the management of the bypass valves
that was giving me fits.
There are two bypass valves. One is located on the outlet of the pump, and diverts the direct boiler feed
to a side outlet. The manual on the steam plant tells me that without an automatic system, one should just
experiment with this valve and see what setting diverts the amount of water needed to match the amount consumed
by the way you run the boat.
The second valve is servo controlled by the boiler feed controller. When the level in the sight glass falls below the sensor,
this valve will go to the "closed" position, this should force the boiler to fill and the valve will then "open" which should recirculate the
water thru the pump.
The problem I was having was caused by the servo valve not completely closing. So the bypass on/off failed to
work correctly. It took a number tries to get the valve close to the correct position. Actually, it still lets a little water thru,
but I found that I can adjust the first valve a little more closed, and achieve a balance. As I got tired of trying to get the nuts tightened andhaving things slip.
When "CLOSED" - or calling to refill the boiler, the resistance from the boiler is less than the resistance thru the valve,
and the boiler fills. When "OPEN" or calling to bypass, the water flows thru the tanks and back to the pump. So in the end
I found that just a quarter-turn open on the primary pump valve is all that is needed.
In her last test run on the bench:
Boiler filled with approx 400ML of water (Capacity 600ml - filled to 2/3 on Sight Glass)
Feed system filled with 400ML of water, across all three tanks.
Oiler filled.
Gas Tank topped off.
Time to 60psi - 4.5 minutes
Time to consume 400ML (the feed water tanks- keeping water level at 2/3) - 57 minutes.
At which time my wife called me to take care of something and I shut down the engine.
There was still the same level in the sight-glass so I would guess that if I wanted to run the
boiler all the way down to the bottom, I would have at least another 30 minutes.
Now, to be honest, I was not running full out, so I do not know what the running time will be
when under way. The oiler was almost empty - just some sludge remaining at the top, the rest was water.
So - now it is time to get her on the water again.
I will post some more videos when I get her on the water soon.
Thanks for reading - more to come.Time to move on to the next project.
I have a couple of other crafts to get serviced for running.
Regards to all,Jim
-
Jim your work on this project looks great, well done. You have encouraged me to get my Proteus engine, boiler and ABC off the shelf and give it a run. I have never run this before so spent some time setting it up and here is a video to one of the runs I did with it today on the bench. Having never seen one of these run before I am astounded by how quickly it revs and by how the boiler stays at full pressure even with the pump pumping water in, it ran for ages today. You must be really pleased with the way yours runs now. https://youtu.be/40fQpuRRTsA (https://youtu.be/40fQpuRRTsA)
-
Yep - The Proteus is rapidly becoming my favorite engine.
Looks like you singed your fingers on the steam valve too!
If you look at my photos, you will see that I moved the sight glass to the other endof the boiler. I did this to be able to neaten up the cables and control wires.
I do not know if being closer to the heat will cause any problems with the sensor.
Hopefully my reports on setting up the ABC will save you some time.
I look forward to seeing it in a hull!
Regards,
Jim
-
Jim I believe that the Mark 1 proteus boiler has the sight glass at the same end of the boiler as the burner and that for the mark 2 version the sight glass was relocated to the far end of the boiler because heat from the burner was affecting the sensor operation, not sure if the heat was causing the water in the sight glass to boil ( I have seen this happen on another boiler, it needed a heat shield to stop the problem) or if the heat was affecting the sensor itself? It will be interesting to see how yours performs with the sight glass now close to the burner, hope all goes well, Dave
-
Dave,
Thanks for the heads-up on the sight-glass.
I have some old-school asbestos sheets that I can cut to size and paint black to blend in.
These can be fitted around/behind the glass and perhaps protect it.
To Anyone Reading -
Does anyone know the two components of the sensor? I assume a photo-resistor and emitter butdoes anyone know the specs - actual part numbers?
Thanks,Jim
-
A simple metal shield would probably be enough to keep the water gauge from boiling. I wouldn't use asbestos at all.
-
Jim re the sensor spec, I can’t help you with that but wonder if there is an issue you need resolving? Hope all is ok
-
See Pics:
Jim
The second one is:The Good Idea Fairy
-
I wrote to Jerry Watson of Clevedon Steam.
Jerry is the "Keeper of the Tribal Knowledge" pertaining to Cheddar.
When I asked about the placement of the sensor and the Sight Glass,
Jerry wrote that the "rear" boiler busses were added in order to move
the Sight Glass and Sensors away from the heat source. It seems the
electronics in the sensor were getting destroyed by the heat.
OOPS.
Back to the shop.
and after scraping the remains of the "Good Idea Fairy" off the toolbox,
I will move the sensor and sight glass back to the back of the boiler.
I hope the 6-8 times I ran the boiler for a long time did not stress the Sensors to the
failure point or weaken them.
More to come.
Jim
-
I successfully moved the sight glass and water sensor back to the non-burner end of the boiler.
Managed to avoid breaking the glass. Or distorting the o-rings beyond use. So hopefully, all is well.
The hardest part was draining the boiler while it was in place without upsetting everything else.
I am still looking for information on the components of the sensor itself. I just want to protect my
investment, and since these engines are 15 years old (but New-In-Box) I try to accumulate information on
pieces and parts as much as I can.
I have talked with Jerry at Clevedon, and he is working on a sight-glass based sensor in the future.
He already has the gas control unit, and this one (I understand) will be stand-alone.
I also added some protection of the sensor unit as I moved it in order to try and insure a longer life.
1. I was concerned about the exposure of the individual wires from the sensor as they were exposed
for about a 1/4 of an inch before they entered the plastic sheath and traveled on to the controller.
To do this I attached the sheath-end to the side of the shield, then I coated the exposed wires and and of the
shield with some "liquid electrical tape".
2. I added a layer of insulation between the end of the boiler and the sight glass. I took some aluminum tape, and on
the adhesive side, put a layer of asbestos paper. Then secured the tape (by folding over the ends) to the boiler under the
sight glass.
I fired up the boiler. It worked flawlessly. When I was at full steam pressure (60PSI) and had been running the engine
for a little while, I measured the temperature of the various components with a hand-held IR Thermometer "gun".
The boiler end (in direct line with the burner) was 315F. The Brass parts of the sight glass were at 275F.
The surface of the insulation was 220F. The Shield of the sensor was at 210F. So I consider the process a success.
My favorite pond is due to finally open next week. So I will have some pics and movies available after our July 4th holiday.
For you brits over there it is our celebration of "independence" - ;)
Here are some pics.
Thanks for following the thread.
Regards,Jim
Denver, CO USA
-
Jim looking forward to hearing how you get on once your boat is on the lake. As a matter of interest how much water are you using for your 40 min plus run times? I have taken some photos of my Cheddar ABC sensor that may or may not help you - I know nothing about the dark arts of electronics its all magic to me. If nothing else hope the phots add interest to the discussion. Dave
-
Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to assist in my quest.
You may not know the dark arts, but you can still be of great help.
From the end with the wires, I see a number of components. Some are passive.
The Orange/tan thing is a capacitor.
1. Can you look at it and tell me the markings?
Next is a Black Square -
It is a "receiver" and gets light (probably infrared - invisible) from the emitter at the other end.
2. Can you see any markings?
3. Can you see how many leads(wires) come off the bottom of the black square.
Next appears to be a diode this is probably to make sure that you do not hook up the sensor array with
reversed leads.
4. Any markings you can see?
Next is a shield that limits the light hitting the receiver to a narrow strip that sort of focuses the beam that comes thru the
glass.
Then we have the wires that hold everything to the sight glass.
Finally is the emitter
Again, any markings to be seen?
All assistance will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again,
Jim
-
Lets expand the discussion:
Since I have a way to refill the boiler,
I have two additional decisions to make:
1. How full should the boiler be for the initial part of the run?
2. Where should I put the sensor on the sight glass?
Conditions I see needed to be taken into account are -
- the higher I put the initial water level, the longer I can run before I start re-filling.
- the lower I put the sensor, the shorter amount of time I have to come back to port before the water level drops below the bottom
of the sight glass.
- If I use the "out of fill-water" flasher as a signal to come in, then putting sensor and the initial water level at the same place means
that I am only running on the fill-water.
- If I set the sensor at the lower part of the glass and fill the boiler to the upper part of the glass, I will use the initial fill first and then run on
fill-water for the balance of the time.
SO - I PUT TO THE FORUM -
A. - What amount of headroom (AIR in TOP OF BOILER) is most efficient for steam production in an engine like the Proteus.
B. - What other things do I need to be thinking about?
C. - (Just cause I want to know) - Can I use Steam Oil to lubricate the external points on the engine? If not what weight oil should be used?
As to B. There are the obvious - Oil in the lubricator - Room for the goop in the condenser.
But what else are we needing to account for,
WHAT MAKES A GOOD HEAD OF STEAM?
I know that these may have been topics in the past, but I thought that maybe it might be a good time to revisit them
since we are also talking about using pond water as a source of fill-water, and other topics.
Thanks for reading and participating in the discussion.
Regards,
Happy Independence Day, (for those of you on this side of the pond)
Jim Pope
JPDenver
Denver, Colorado USA
-
OK Jim.....I'll just find my role of string {-)
1. How full should the boiler be for the initial part of the run?
The 3/4 full boiler [water volume], will take longer to reach boiling point than a 1/2 full boiler
The 1/2 full boiler [water volume] of boiling water will have a greater volume of steam available for use than the 3/4 full boiler water voulme]...this also answers question A
The usuable volume of steam could be considered an important point
The balance of your '4 legged' questions [2., & B] %% are near impossible to provide sound guidance other than your own trials to see if the results match your expectations
c. Steam Oil of most Grades is based on an ISO Mineral Oil with some additives to make it sticky @ temperature......if the oiler caps on the Proteus engine have a small open hole to the journal pins, you could trial a light lubricating oil, if it disappears quickly, trial a squirt of Steam oil.....it is comforting to see oil in the cups by the shore side, but what happens toward the end of your 40 to 60-minute runs? >>:-(
Light oils may appear fine, but at speed or high pulsations of the components may throw or fling the light oil off.......a heavier Steam oil with the sticky qualities will tend to stick where it's meant to be
Before my retirement, I posed the same questions to a Colleague BHP Steel Lubrication Engineer and so we also visited some of the exotic Steam Oils as marketed in the US of A, and naturally the final advice was that trials could only define the results, however the 10 x fold $ cost was questioned as Snake Oil <*<
Derek
[considering the initial cost of model steam equipment, I would always be happier using more oil than less]...... :P
-
For lubrication of the moving parts (Not piston or valve chests) I use a mix of 600 steam oil: 20/50 mineral oil and rape seed oil(Marzola) in a 2:1:1 ratio. I put neat steam oil in the lubricator.
Jerry C.
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Jim I will share my experiences of running two different models with the Cheddar ABC system. The first has the same boiler as yours that supplies steam to two Cheddar Puffins. It is from my steam tug that I have been learning from over the last 18 months. I set the boiler filling sensor to 2/3 full. On start up I top the boiler up to 3/4 full. This means everything gets warm and is running well before the water level drops and the system asks for water into the boiler, if not the system asks for water to the boiler very quickly, probably before you are ready to put the boat in the water and for the engines to be running and turning the pumps. Also the pumps need to be turning over at a reasonable speed to catch up with the water used.Once on the water and running the system keeps up with demand, maintaining the boiler at 2/3, for 40 minutes or more. The oilers have not run out of oil during this time, the oil seperator does fill and is the limiting factor. I use straight steam oil in the oiler and have been using steam oil for lubricating the engine bearings, steam glands and moving faces.
The second is the same set up as you have, again I fill the boiler to 2/3 and the system has no problem keeping up with demand, the engine revs faster than the puffins and I need to work further on the settings for the boiler feedwater bypass settings since at higher revs the boiler level rises too far. I have been impressed at the revs of the Proteus engine and the ability of the set up to maintain the water level in the boiler at about half revs (2000rpm) while also maintaining 60 psi without noticeably dropping the pressure or revs when the pump is operating to fill the boiler. it just keeps going,
What I have learned is that the system can and does maintain the boilers water level at 2/3 and it does this better at higher rpm, I do still bring the model back in to check all is operating as it should. Whilst not directly answering your questions perhaps you can use these observations as a starting point for your own experiments since what I am finding is that each steam plant had its own character, so what works for one may not for another. hope this helps, Dave
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Regarding oiling the engine: always use steam oil in the displacement lubricator. Not all steam oils are equal though. I use the thick ones for larger engines and thinner ones for very small engines.
As Derek has also said, the choice of oil for externally lubricating the engine (bearings, gears etc) is dictated by the rpm and size of oiling cups. Steam oil can also work well and will stick to the parts longer as a lighter oil. It can also add friction, compared to a light oil (depending on engine construction).
But a very thick oil might not flow through oil cups or pipes with very narrow holes, in which case you better use a light oil.
Nowadays I tend to use Regner steam oil for internally lubricating most of my engines, Hermann steam oil (which is considerably thinner) for my very small engines and Ballistol for general purpose external lubrication and when running the engines on air.
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Thanks everyone -
I have been using Steam Oil (I have a large supply of original Cheddar) for all lubrication needs.
I just wanted to make sure I thought it through.
As to the boiler and feed system -
I think the 2/3 to Start and 1/2 for feed sensor so far looks good. My feed system holds about
375 - 400 ML. The boiler is a 600 ML capacity (but that does not say if it is the "usable level" or
fill to the top.) It is currently a pain in the butt to drain. The "re-fill from 1/2 to start-level" is about 150ML.
For a total of 525 - 550 ML per run of 50 minutes (on the bench).
Need more time on the water - hopefully next week.
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Dave, - I found that if I opened the by-pass master valve (the one on the pump) to 1/4 turn, I reached
some point of equilibrium where I did not over fill the boiler. As I said in a previous post, and you have no doubt found out,
the setting of the servo valve is tricky. I think that even the "off:closed" position is still letting a little bypass due to the fact
that it is real difficult to set the valve "live" and testing with air and bubbles is not the same as with water.
Thanks again every one.Keep your keels down.
Jim
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Finally the city opened my favorite park.
By this time of the year the Canadian Geese are hanging around
and leaving plenty of poop behind. (Typical of Canadians I hear) {-)
So here is a movie from this morning.
I think my trim weights might have shifted as she is listing a little
to starboard.
https://youtu.be/wscUBE8qax8
Thanks for following this thread, I think it is pretty much finished.
I hope that you have enjoyed the topic as much as I have.
Time to get back on the water and have some fun,
I will be back here when I get my hands on the next project.
Regards to all,
Stay safe.
Jim PopeJPDenver
Denver, CO USA
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Very nice, congratulations! She seems quite fast for its rather wide hull. Looks like the Proteus has ample power.
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Thanks to all for the kind comments.
I think that the Proteus and the Greyhounds Revenge will make a great team.
This will be my last post on this thread,
but keep an eye on my YouTube page:Hilltop Boatworks James Pope
As more movies will be forthcoming.
Regards to all,
onwards to the next project.
Jim Pope
JPDenver
Denver, CO USA
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...."onwards to the next project"..............what a good idea Jim O0
I found a WEB site that may interest, & I grew up with Imperial dimensions all those moons ago, but it must be near 100 years ago since I have seen a measuring device with these funny designations.....
Question ....'what is the centre line dimension as shown? {-) ....
I see 1+8/32" or 1+16/64" [if you are standing on your head].............what did the Drawing say Jim?...... :o
Derek
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Inch and a quarter.
Jerry.
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Derek,
8) Are you stalking me on another forum, my friend?
Yes, this is from my compound twin build on the Home Model Engine Machinist Forum.
It got paused a year ago. Now time to finish it up.
I think it will drive the big boat nicely. (other thread)
Regards,
Jim
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......"Are you stalking me on another forum, my friend?" no, no, no...... {-)
I was on the other new THread here, copied & pasted the words Stuart Compound....and bingo...your build thread was on the top of the list O0
Also saw your new Junior Ms Shop Superintendent :kiss: ....I have 9 of those <*< in varying ages & stages [the ratio is 5 Ms, & 4 Mr]
Derek
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"...I have 9 of those in varying ages & stages [the ratio is 5 Ms, & 4 Mr]"
I take it you mean the two legged variety, and not the 4 legged! :-))
You have me beat by 1.
Looks like Martin killed my link to the HMEM forum. >>:-(
Oh well, Jerry's is a much better example.
I have some new toys arriving soon.
Will start a new thread for them.
Regards,Jim
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Dear Gents,
Please read the Electronic controllers in Steam, there are some interesting thing there :)
Which may help you.
Plus Dave put a video there about his old ABC which is running with my side glass sensor.