Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: zooma on August 21, 2020, 03:25:45 pm
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A casual mention of my wish to start building a replica of my first ever r/c model boat on another Mayhem thread brought an interesting response from ChrisF who is a keen builder of Fairey Marine model boats - and like myself he prefers making them to a 1/12 scale.
My Aerokits Swordsman was 1/12 scale, and it makes a nice size model - not too big and not too small.
I used to enjoy running my Swordsman back in the late '60s with a friend who also had a 1/12 scale Swordsman, but he enjoyed showing-of his professional cabinet making skills and so he used the P.Connolly plans to make his beautiful example from, and fortunately these Model Maker plans also produced a 1/12 scale model.
Unfortunately, the Swordsman is one of the few Aerokits models that has not been re-kitted, but I was able to purchase a copy set of the Aerokits Swordsman plans from eBay, and these also came with a set of drawn templates for the bulkheads, which is quite handy as these shapes are not shown on the kit plans and so they have saved me a lot of time by not having to develop the shapes myself.
The P.Connolly plans are also still available too, so anyone wanting to build a 1/12 scale Swordsman has a choice of plan to build one from.
The main difference between these two models is that the Aerokits built model has lift-off cabin tops, whereas the P.Connolly design has a complete lift-off superstructure making very easy access to anything inside the hull (such as motors, speed controller, batteries etc).
I actually raced my Swordsman in the off-shore series back then using a Merco 61 twin plug glow motor where the model proved it self to be totally reliable and water-tight too. Unfortunately my friends Swordsman was not suitable for off-shore running as any water washing across the decks would easily find its way into the hull due to the complete lift-off superstructure - so mine was the better all weather performer, although running them on our own waters at home (mainly on the River Avon and Kennet and Avon Canal) was never a problem for either model.
Hopefully I will get started on this model very soon as I am really looking forward to owning and running another 1/12 scale Swordsman again.
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As a matter of interest, there were 61 Swordsman built by Fairey Marine between 1964 and 1974 and the Swordsman was the largest model made by them at the time.
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Hi zooma
Just read your post about your experiences running the Swordsman. I too have built the areokits version powered by Merco 61 back in the 60s its a pity they haven't reintroduced the kit along with the other aerokits range i think it would do very well. So like you i turned to Phil Connolly's plan put a sc 60 in but found it a bit to powerful for it on the turns, having built another put a asp 46 this runs very well indeed. I also have a 24 inch version with a brushless in it which goes very well. Just one thing i can not seem to master is the windscreen which is a bit of pity as i think it just finishes the model off
Happy building and boating
madboats
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Hi Bob
Good to see that you are going to start building the Swordsman soon. I got as far as building the hull but then got side-tracked with other Fairey projects! I must get back onto it.
I think it's worth mentioning that the drawings off Ebay are a mixed bag. The original kit drawings are first class but the accompanying templates are pretty poor as they have been badly traced around the kit parts and will make the build a challenge and involve extra work in producing symmetrical parts with correctly positioned slots etc.
The Philip Connolly drawings produced for the Model Maker Plans Service are as you would expect professionally drawn. They are available from the Model Dockyard and listed as MM791.
Have you got as far as thinking about using one motor or two? There's plenty of room!
Chris
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Hi Chris,
My Swordsman will have just one shaft and one brushless motor - but it has to be a "good-un". My best memories of my Swordsman were spent mainly looking at its cabin tops as it was thrown into a tight turn whilst absolutely "flat-out".
The Aerokits Swordsman really "dug-in" to the turns like it was a motorcycle on the wall of death - absolutely brilliant!
If a twin shaft variant could perform like that it would spend most of its life with one propeller spinning in the air - I can remember my Swordsman spinning the single prop in the air at times - it really was a sparkling performer.
Thinking about it - I don't know why I haven't built another one much sooner!
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Hi zooma
Just read your post about your experiences running the Swordsman. I too have built the areokits version powered by Merco 61 back in the 60s its a pity they haven't reintroduced the kit along with the other aerokits range i think it would do very well. So like you i turned to Phil Connolly's plan put a sc 60 in but found it a bit to powerful for it on the turns, having built another put a asp 46 this runs very well indeed. I also have a 24 inch version with a brushless in it which goes very well. Just one thing i can not seem to master is the windscreen which is a bit of pity as i think it just finishes the model off
Happy building and boating
madboats
Hi Madboats,
I am going to build my Swordsman to the Aerokits plan as I like the way that the superstructure is included in the hull build - and I never had any problems with access through the cabin top for me to consider making a complete lift-off top like the P.Connolly plan offers.
My TID tug was built that way and it does give unbeatable access, but with a good performance boat like the Swordsman I like to be able to keep any water that splashes onto the deck out of the hull, and the Aerokits construction method does this better.
I remember experimenting with an extra 1/8 x 1/4 strip laminated on top of the chine rubbing strakes to double the thickness to making it 1/4 x 1/4. This did help with the hull when it was basically "running on its side" most of the time and was only really noticeable when out of the water - and even then it took a few trips before my pal noticed what I had done........and modified his a few days later !
The windscreen is a problem to get right. I can't remember how I made mine (it was a long time ago) but the eBay plans include a windscreen template so I will try making a card windscreen from this first to check the fit.
I need to find some good quality clear material to make the screen from as I have nothing here "in stock" but something a little heavier than the usual clear glazing that I usually fit for window glazing is needed. Any ideas where I can find a suitable screen material?
Stay safe!
Bob.
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I have a Turnigy 600 4030-880KV helicopter motor here that I am tempted to try in the Swordsman - I bought it to replace a Torpedo 850 brushed motor in a Sea Queen - but having seen the way that the smaller 3648-1450KV motor performs in my Rapier, I think one of those could be plenty good enough to give a good performance.
The compromise between having a good motor that can make white water with a nice brisk performance and one that becomes "anti-social" when running on the cub lake is something that I need to consider, so the 3648-1450 is the motor I think I would like to try first - and I suspect that it will do the job quite nicely!
Running on two cells only, this motor really does perform very well without the extra cost or need to buy 3 or 4 cell LiPo packs.
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Hi Bob
I'm using an Overlander 4250/06 800kV in mine but will have to run it on 3S or 4S to get sufficient revs for some decent performance. Obviously I haven't tried it yet but the "science" behind the choice was:
The Swordsman is a fairly heavy, beamy old lump.
It "needed" to be a bigger motor than I'm using in my Huntsman 28 and 31.
I'm using a 45mm 3 bladed brass prop.
The prop shaft is 5mm and pretty long and heavy and takes more turning than the 4mm used in my other boats.
I'm not water cooling.
At least your choice is a known quantity!
That's the good thing about brushless though. With them being so powerful their performances overlap quite a bit and so the choice can be a number of different motors and with the advent of LiPos you can add volts without much of a weight penalty.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Compared to my 3848 your 4250 is a physically bigger motor, but my 4030 motor is a "600 class" helicopter motor and I think they must describe them differently.
I am not sure how the measurement system works on 600 size helicopter motors, but when placed alongside my trusty blue plastic ruler this one measures 48mm diameter and is 56mm long - so using the motor description as described to me on another Mayhem thread, this motor should be a 4856 !
In common with other "600 class" helicopter motors, this one has a 6mm shaft. I have some other 600 class helicopter motors (Hacker/RJX) and they are also a similar size in size in diameter and length. I doubt I will need a motor this big in my Swordsman. I was going to fit it in my Corvette if I had gone for a single shaft drive so it is currently unemployed.
I always run a water-cooled speed controller and fit the motors on a water-cooled mount in my boats when using brushless motors that are capable of producing a good performance. Maybe this is just a "hang-up" from my previous days of running glow motors and petrol engines, but I know that if things get "hot" they can go wrong and so I take no chances and like to run everything as cool as possible.
I also find it really easy to swap motors when running them on an alloy water-cooled motor mount as every motor I have tried to date will fit the same size mounts (and they are certainly not expensive), so it is possible to permanently fit the "side cheeks" into the hull and keep a spare motor fitted to its own alloy water-cooled mount that can be fitted into any of my hulls that have a pair of pre-fitted "cheeks" within a minute or two. Almost a "drop-in" system.
The 3848-1450 runs in my Rapier on a water-cooled mount and has a 5mm prop shaft. I fitted a 150amp water-cooled speed controller and run it on a single 5600amp 60C two cell LiPo. This combination comes back after a "spirited run" with the motor cold and the speed controller mildly warm so I am very happy with this choice so far.
You will have to let me know what size of speed controller are you using with your 4250-800 motor and see how hot they run - maybe I am wasting my time with water cooling - but old habits die hard!
Stay safe.
Bob.
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Hi Bob
Harry (Canabus) doesn't using cooling either and runs his boats for extended periods at high speed. Personal choice though really and obviously it's easier to install cooling when building rather than after.
The 4250 800kV motor calls for a 60amp ESC but I'm going to use a 120amp one, albeit more expensive. My theory is, and it's just that, is that with an oversize motor, ESC and battery the components will have an easy time of it and run cool. It's all part of the fun anyway trying different things and making your own decisions based on the experience of others. For some things there is no right or wrong just alternatives.
Chris
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"to cool or not to cool" - that is the question!
Yes Harry has told me that he does not use water-cooling - along with many others - it is a personal choice that is usually influenced by your own experience and the type of motor/speed controller/LiPo being used and the level of performance you intend extracting from the model.
Once the alloy water-cooled motor mounts are installed, the motor and speed controller can be used for nice gentle cruising (this can make the speed controller run hotter) or for flat-out running (when the motor may get hotter but the speed controller could well run cooler).
You need to find out how your Swordsman runs when you run it for the first time and let me know your findings.
The 800kw motor is not too demanding on power, should run cooler, and give you a much longer run time than I could expect to get from my 1450kw motor as it is powerful but very demanding on the batteries.
I have ordered one of the newer type Turnigy SK3 3542-1250KV motors to see how much performance I loose when I drop it into my Rapier and note how much longer my run times will be.
Using the alloy water-cooled mounts I will only have to loosen the coupling and unscrew the cap head bolts to release the 3638-1450KV motor and drop the new SK3 into position, replace the bolts and tighten the coupling. It is so quick and easy to do this that I can make one run with the 3648 and change to the 3542 for the next run whilst everything is still fresh in my mind and nothing is lost due to any elapse of time.........or my bad memory!
I don't see any disadvantages of running with brushless motors mounted in inexpensive (but every efficient) alloy water-cooled mounts to keep the motor bearing and speed controller cool, but I do know what can happen without water cooling - and that can spoil your day!
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You'll probably have your Swordsman on the water before I do! :-)
As you say the mounts you use are good from the ease of installation and motor replacement point of view even if the cooling function isn't used.
The lake I use isn't that big and so you can't sustain high speed for long, more like short bursts between the turn buoys we use for racing. So speed is being constantly varied from slow to fast and so I shouldn't have any problems.
Chris
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I haven't cut any wood yet Chris, but I am looking forward to getting started.
Maybe we could see both of our new Swordsman boats on the water in time for summer 2021, and if we have a suitable inoculation (jab) for the dreaded virus we will be free to travel too!
I have just put my Loyal Chancellor and Maggie M on eBay to make some space in my overcrowded workshop - along with my almost un-run Relentless V2 that I just don't have the time to play with!
Enjoy your weekend!
Bob.
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Hi Bob
Sorry for the late reply my ic powered Swordsman has the complete superstructure removeable i think this is more practical been ic powered but my 24 inch version i just have the hatch tops lift off. I obtained some perspex on ebay there are several companies listed which stock different thicknesses and will cut to size hope this helps
stay safe
madboats
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Hi Mad Boats,
Pleased to know that you have got the Swordsman bug!
I am guessing that your ic powered Swordsman will be the 33" model (1/12 scale)? That would be easy to convert to electric power and could then be run on a lot more clubs water - its hard to find anywhere that allows ic power these days!
Thanks for your tip - I will check eBay for some perspex sheet. I did think about this but I was not sure how easy it would be to bend into shape - but it would be a lot more durable than clear acrylic sheet once it was fixed in place.
Bob.
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Last night I was in my workshop waiting for some glue to dry on the Corvette and decided to take a look at the plans for the Aerokits Swordsman and some drawings that Chris F had kindly sent to me.
I made a card template (cereal packet) from the drawings for a keel and found a suitable piece of birch ply that had been left over from a previous project and cut it out. The wood fitted the plan perfectly so I have made a start!
When I came back in I jumped onto the modelboatbits site and ordered an 11" M5 Maxidrive propshaft (threaded one end only) and a suitable 5mm x 5mm Powerflex coupling coupling
Today I will take a look and see what wood I need to order to complete the Swordsman build.
I am really looking forward to owning another Swordsman!
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Hi Bob
Great that you have made a start on the build. If you build a sister Swordsman what do you fancy building? As well as the rear cabin version with the roof level with the deck that you have the Aerokits drawings for and have started building, there is the version I'm building as per the photo of Tireur shown with the cabin roof just below the top of the coamings and then there's the full open cockpit version.
There is also a later version with a full height rear cabin, similar looking to the Huntsman 31, called the Super Swordsman.
My build stalled because I started building a Huntsman 31 and then got side-tracked again when starting my latest project, a Huntress with a stern-drive.
Thanks to RadioJoe's inspiration in his Hunters Moon Huntsman 31 build I'm going to plank the decks etc. on the Swordsman and Huntsman and am just about to order the timber required.
Chris
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All of the Swordsman variants sound interesting Chris, I have never seen any pictures of the full open cockpit version - but it does sound interesting...and different !
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Hi Bob
Photo of one with a non-standard screen and top. I guess that there weren't/aren't many of the full-sized boats because most folks wanting a boat of this size wanted more accommodation and so bought one of the aft cabin variants. The full cockpit, whilst nice, is a bit of a waste of space. This also applied to the Huntsman 31. For those wanting a full cockpit and a smaller boat there was the Huntress 23 and Huntsman 28.
There is a build of a full open cockpit Swordsman in the Masterclass section for a smaller model.
Chris
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You are a mine of information on the Fairey model Chris - thanks fr sharing it with us.
Can you let me know what the differences are with the Super Swordsman please?
Does it have exactly the same 33ft hull as the Swordsman ?.........and hopefully it does not look the same as the Huntsman 31 as there are already a lot of those models out there in various scales and I have already sent away for the 1/12 scale plans fr the Huntsman 31..............
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Hi Bob
The Super Swordsman was a later version of the Swordsman with a full height rear cabin and unfortunately, well from the side anyway, looks very similar to the Huntsman 31! But the real things would look a lot different as along with being a couple of foot longer the Swordsman has a greater beam that doesn't narrow towards the stern. The H31 is much narrower and sleeker and is the most modern of the timber hulled Faireys and the hull was the basis of the later glass-fibre Spearfish boats. As regards models they would be harder to tell apart unless you know your Faireys.
The hull of the Super Swordsman is the same, though some stretched ones were produced as were others in the Fairey range. As you can see it has the larger angular engine air intakes as used on some of the H31 and utilized by RadioJoe in his build.
As for the H31 you could always do what I'm doing and build it with the open cockpit. I reckon it looks great with the sleek hull and will go well. My drawing attached.
Chris
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That open H31 does look good.
Have you any idea how long they made the stretched Super Swordsman by any chance?
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Hi Bob
38 and 42 feet.
Cheers, Chris
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Hi Chris,
That is a big stretch from 33ft to 38ft and even more of a stretch to 42ft!
How did they distribute the extra length - and did they keep the width the same?
I guess they would have to add the extra length in the middle of the boat to prevent the rear end getting too narrow, but keeping the cockpit the same size so all of the length went into the rear cabin - or did they share it out by extending the front cabin too by moving the cockpit backwards?
This could be an interesting boat.
Even the 42ft Super Swordsman would only be 42" long and nothing like as bulky as the Corvette.........
Food for thought!
Bob.
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Hi Mad Boats,
Thanks for your tip - I will check eBay for some perspex sheet. I did think about this but I was not sure how easy it would be to bend into shape - but it would be a lot more durable than clear acrylic sheet once it was fixed in place.
Bob.
I've been trying to find a supplier of acrylic/perspex for a Huntsman. The original in the kit was .5mm thick. Plenty of .5mm around but only up to A4 size, no sheets big enough to use on a model. Did try some model aircraft sites but they don't seem to use it anymore.
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Hi Mudway
RadioJoe in his Hunters Moon build used PVC from SLEC. They say it is suitable for aircraft and boat windscreens and is available in 1000 x 600 sheets.
Just noticed you're in Sydney though!
Chris
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Hi Bob
Yes, I agree that the extra length would be provided by adding extra pieces in the middle, probably at the point of maximum beam.
I have some photos in a book but can't post them due to copyright but if you Google Fairey Marine 42 etc. and then images it throws a few up. Superstructures are generally a lot different to the usual Swordsman.
Chris
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Hi Mudway
RadioJoe in his Hunters Moon build used PVC from SLEC. They say it is suitable for aircraft and boat windscreens and is available in 1000 x 600 sheets.
Just noticed you're in Sydney though!
Chris
Thanks, that's the catch, getting 1 metre shipped to Oz. A 34" Huntsman windscreen is roughly 550mm x 150 mm if you want a one piece one. I did contemplate making it in 3 parts but didn't like the idea.
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Apparently, instead of Perspex, in Oz it is now called either Vivak or P.E.T.G. The bad news is that the shops only sell the .5 mm thickness in 1.2 x 2.4 metre sheets.
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Hi Mudway
RadioJoe in his Hunters Moon build used PVC from SLEC. They say it is suitable for aircraft and boat windscreens and is available in 1000 x 600 sheets.
Just noticed you're in Sydney though!
Chris
Hi Chris,
I was ordering some wood online from SLEC today and was "checking-out" when I remembered what you had said about the source of a suitable clear PVC sheet and so I "went back" and added a 1000 x 600 sheet to my order for use (at a later date!) on my Swordsman.
My next job is to re-size the chine supports and cut a new pair in 1/4" (6mm) plywood.
I have cut and chamfered the forward keel doublers and cut the 1/2" x 1/2" rear keel doublers ready to sandwich around the M5 prop shaft when it arrives from modelboatbits - hopefully this week!
As soon as the prop shaft arrives I can fit the doublers, breasthook and K3 chine formers and B1 Bulkhead (Aerokits original part numbers) to encourage me to get the bandsaw switched on and cut the bulkheads and cabin sides so I can fit all the parts together "dry" to see if they still "jig" everything together nice and square before gluing together and fitting the lower ply skins and motor mounts.
Aerokits use of a 4mm plywood keel is quite smart as it is relatively easy to pull any slight twist "straight" as the cabin sides and bulkhead interlock together and self-align everything prior to committing to glueing the shapes together.
Les Rowel also used the same keel material sizing on his 39" Javelin so it works well enough for a bigger boat too and was good enough to keep my first Swordsman together when I raced it off-shore where it was "put to sea" and raced in appalling conditions that actually broke some of its rivals - but the Swordsman never flinched!
I think I can see where the inspiration for the "Rapier" name came from following his successful "Swordsman" kit (and then came the Stiletto and Javelin) all of them were "CUTTING EDGE" designs :-))
Stay safe,
Bob.
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I had a recent delivery from SLEC as I needed some more 1.5mm birch ply for the Huntress hull skins. As usual I ordered a few other sheets of ply and mahogany strip etc. for stock and the Swordsman deck to make the postage worthwhile.
Sounds as though the Swordsman build is coming on nicely now Bob. Obviously when the skins are on the hull is very strong whatever thickness of ply is used for the keel and bulkheads etc.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
My Swordsman will have the same size wood as the Aerokits model that I built back in 196....something or other, but that does not mean that it is the ultimate choice of material sizes - I am using these as it will make an authentic replica and I know that it works well and makes a good strong model.
In the past I have used heavier wood in the keel in particular and if that is the wood that I have available the next time I build I would not hesitate to use it - but getting any slight twists out of a thicker weight keel can be a lot harder, so I would have to make certain that the wood was absolutely flat before (and after) cutting it.
I prefer to build good solid boats rather than skimp of the wood thickness and then end up having to carry "dead weight" to get the boat down to the marks when it gets wet for the first time - so I am hoping that my choice to build to the original spec will work-out as well for my electric powered model as it did for my Merco 61 twin plug powered original.
As a matter of interest, the Fairy book (that I think you referred to previously) has just been reprinted as a 3rd edition. "Fairey Marine - Boat, Raceboats, Rival and Revivals".
Its a bit pricey at £53 plus £9 delivery, but Amazon always sold the previous editions so when it arrives in their warehouse I will see what price they are asking for it as it could be lower and will have free delivery too - and that will make quite a difference to the overall cost of the book.
Stay safe.
Bob.
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Yes, that's the one. Excellent book though and if for anyone interested in Faireys it's the go to source for information along with the Fairey Owners Club web-site. The book has been the inspiration for three, no four of my Fairey builds and has provided information on them that I haven't found anywhere else.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
What size prop shaft did you buy to fit your 1/12 scale Swordsman?
I know that is was M5 and ball raced but the length would be interesting as it may have to be slightly longer than a plain bearing shaft to clear the motor bay bulkhead that it would pass through on the Aerokits type assembly.
I see that your choice of Raboesch ball raced prop shafts are sold in cm (rather than inches).
Bob.
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Hi Bob
I'm using the 450mm one in my Swordsman build. I probably won't be using the coupling shown now as I've started using the alloy/rubber/alloy type. I will probably need to cut the prop shaft down a bit though.
Chris
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Wow - that's almost 18" long - I was only going to fit an 11" M5 plain Maxi Shaft in my Swordsman.
I will get the Aerokits Swordsman plans out and take another look to check the length to make sure that I have enough submerged and able to clear an X50 prop (probably the maximum size I would run following testing) with enough inside the hull to connect to my Powerflex coupling.
I think 11" is just under 280mm so I also need to check the Cornwall site to see what M5 sizes they have available.
Thanks for the info Chris - I may have made a mistake!
Stay safe!
Bob.
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You probably haven't made a mistake Bob, I'd have to check the drawings myself but I think I used a longer prop shaft to achieve a slightly lower angle and why being such a long shaft and a powerful motor I went for a 5mm rather than my more usual 4mm. One of my initial drawings shows the motor sitting further back in the cabin. This was the first model drawing I did and I think I worked on not cutting the prop shaft down. I've since done that on other builds and so if doing the drawing now would work on the basis of reducing the length of the prop shaft a bit. I've also worked on the basis of using a 45mm prop so a bit smaller than yours. The one shown is only a 40mm.
The outer dia. is 10mm and makes for a big and heavy prop shaft but the beamy hull of the Swordsman can take it. I was going to use one in the Huntsman 31 but changed to a 4mm even though it's the same length, as the 5mm one seemed out of proportion and too heavy for the more slender hull. It's usually recommended that a 5mm is used for prop shafts of that length but I'm working on the principle that Raboesch must think it's man enough for the job and won't whip too much.
Chris
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Here's a photo of the prop shaft trial fitted in the hull. Again with a prop smaller than the 45mm I'm going to use. As you can see I would have struggled with a shorter prop shaft as I would have been very close, maybe too close, to the keel?
They do a 290mm - with a 50mm prop and therefore steeper angle you might be alright, especially if your keel isn't as deep as mine. Otherwise go for a longer one and cut it down which is a good option as you can have it the optimum length taking into account the prop, angle, coupling and motor position. 450mm does sound long but I've just had a look at that for my Swordsman and it doesn't look it (the 10mm diameter helps with that), measured off what a 290mm looks like and it looks titchy!
Just noticed as well that I have the prop much closer to the rudder than shown on the Aerokits drawing - it all adds up!
All part of the fun!!
Chris
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Thanks for the follow-up Chris - very helpful.
Since my last scribe I have started adding the keel doublers after opening-up the slot for the prop shaft from 6mm (as per plan) to accommodate the 8mm Maxi Shaft that I already have. This would be easy to open up to accommodate a 10mm shaft at a later date.
I have done this is such a way as to keep the boat length and the shaft angle exactly as per Aerokits plan. I also know that my last Swordsman steered very well, so I will keep the rudder position as per plan too.
The size of the propeller could be anything between S40 and X50 - with even the possibility of an S55 - and the Aerokits plans allow for this amount of variation without the need to make any changes (I have tested this with these actual props).
I have no idea how to decide on what prop any boat is going to need until it has been run and tested - although actual running experience with any particular hull or motor can give a good starting point for any new build. There are so many variables that can all influence the best prop for any particular hull and motor combination - and of course the boat users preferred operating requirements (speed, duration, lake, off-shore etc). This is why I like to have some tolerance when fitting the shaft - but with the Swordsman I do not have to worry as Aerokits (by design or good fortune) have got all the usable options catered for.
Another reason why I only using plastic props initially, is because they are inexpensive to test with and to get some idea about what works best with any particular hull/motor combination. Changing to brass after testing can still produce some surprises - but the experience gained when running the plastic props does help when deciding what size of brass props to invest in. Different numbers of propeller blades can make quite a difference too, and fortunately it is still possible to find plastic props with two, three and four blades to experiment with and this can be helpful too.
I hope to complete fitting all of the doublers this evening and then start cutting-out some more bulkheads (using your drawings) tomorrow after I have made some card templates for them.
As a matter of interest, I used the Aerokits pattern for the 6mm chine formers , and re-cut the breasthook in 6mm (your drawings) and everything now aligns correctly and fits together really well ........so far!
Lets hope we can get some of our Fairey Fleet out and on the water later this year - or early next year, as when they are seen in action they often provoke others to make one too.......and at the moment their are no Swordsmen to be seen on our club lake!
Bob.
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I was chatting to a chap at the club yesterday who has a number of Faireys. He has owned both the Aerokits and PC designs and says that he found the Aerokits to come upon the plane easier, I don't know why. Anyway preferring the Aerokits he has one which I've seen a couple of times. Trouble is our lake isn't really big enough for such large fast boats, it does handle well though.
In fact he's having my big 47" Huntsman 31 off me so I'm going to have to build an aft cockpit version now!
Sounds as though your build is coming together nicely now.
Chris
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I am struggling to make any sense of the "kit copy" templates at the moment Chris.
The Aerokits bulkhead shapes do have a steeper "V" and that may (possibly) be why that version of the Swordsman performs a little differently (better!), but the rough drawings that came with the eBay purchase of an Aerokits plan and template drawings are far from symmetrical, and have even have a different deck height (actually different from left to right!) to your really nice template drawings.
Were your drawings generated from the P Connolly plans by any chance?
I was hoping to use your good templates and just "graft on" the extended bulkhead tops to fit the fixed cabin sides but I think that the differences are too great to get away with that so I am trying to work out which side of the rough template drawing may fit the plan the best and which of the two heights of deck support (left or right!!) to use.
These drawings really are bad and totally unusable - other than as a "loose" reference to the bulkhead shapes.
Anyone who used these drawings and cut the wood would end up with a very distorted hull with odd height decks!
I would have though that if these rough shapes had been made by drawing around the kit parts (as suspected) that they would have been much better than this as my Aerokits Swordsman went together quite nicely. I wonder how many have been put-off of completing a Swordsman from these plans when confronted with non-fitting templates?
I have just come in from the workshop (shed) to take a break as I am finding this lack of accuracy and fit very frustrating. Maybe its a good job that it is not possible to send in an eBay review of these plan drawings - as it would not be good!
A good set of bulkhead drawings to fit the Aerokits plans would be a godsend and would make life much easier.
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Hi Chris,
I have finally made some symmetric bulkhead templates based on the drawings that came with the Aerokits plan that I bought from eBay - some of the drawings are not as bad as others (although none are that accurate) so the next step is to get some cut and see if the compromise that was necessary to make them symmetric will align correctly as I may need to do some re-working of the shapes before I get it right.
Although I really want this Swordsman to be a replica of my first ever r/c boat that was built from Aerokits, my next build will probably be based on the templates that you kindly sent to me as they are really well drawn and will fit together properly - and that would be nice.........
I need to eat more cereal as I am running out of template material %)
Stay safe!
Bob.
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It appears I spoke too soon Bob. I've commented a couple of times on this and other forums about the atrocious quality of the drawings that guy provides where others have had problems. He's been doing it for years for a number of boats and it's a real disservice to modellers. I can understand your frustration.
I did use the Aerokits drawing to do mine. I'll start having a look at the superstructure drawings as that might be of help to you in working out the shape of the top of the bulkheads, including that for the cabin and relative deck levels due to the shear.
Will have to be careful though because I have to print out at 133% to give 1:12. For some reason, which I forget now, when I scanned the drawing some years ago they came out smaller. Not a problem for me as I'm working off one drawing but could lead to inaccuracies for you as you are working off mine and the kit drawing.
Have you tried positioning my bulkheads against the kit side view to see how the deck, deck stringer, chine and bottom of keel compare?
Chris
Edit: I started my post before yours but was then interrupted by a late tea so some of what I've said may not apply now. Something else to check, apart from Bulkhead No. 1 which we know about, do the other bulkheads on my keel drawing match up with those on your kit drawing? Reason I ask is that obviously any difference will impact on the position of the deck, stringers and chine.
In theory :-) my drawings, apart from the roof of the aft cabin, should produce a model exactly as the Aerokits as that was the drawing I used for mine, notwithstanding the superstructure on mine lifts off.
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This all sounds terribly hard work. Why not just buy the Sarik plans designed by Dave Milbourn and scale them up? Much more accurate.
Colin
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This all sounds terribly hard work. Why not just buy the Sarik plans designed by Dave Milbourn and scale them up? Much more accurate.
Colin
Hi Colin,
I think the Aerokits plans are accurate and not a problem, but the drawings that come with them that show the component shapes (when bought from eBay) are not produced by Aerokits, but by the seller, and these are not as accurate as they could be.
Now I have "twigged" I have made my own set of templates so the job should now be back on track.
I cut a new breasthook, and bulkheads B1 and B2 this evening and they fit each other nicely. I also cut a pair of cabin sides (no windows at this stage) so as I cut the other bulkheads (B3, B4 & B5) I can double check to make sure there are no problems.
I had previously cut the keel and doublers etc direct from the plan and assembled them, so I am dry fitting the bulkheads to it as I go, and the Aerokits interlocking assembly method will self-align everything if I have made my symmetrical bulkhead templates OK.
As ChrisF said to me recently, we are in effect making "prototype" models - every one is slightly different and they all provide little challenges for us to resolve as we go - and that can sometimes be the most enjoyable part of the build.
I am hoping the last three bulkheads fit OK now, and if they don't, I will adjust them until they do. The real test will be when they are all assembled on the keel and interlocked with the cabin sides and I check the alignment of the stringers to make sure all of the notches are holding them correctly so the lines flow as nicely as they should.
Its all good fun!
Bob.
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This all sounds terribly hard work. Why not just buy the Sarik plans designed by Dave Milbourn and scale them up? Much more accurate.
Colin
Slight problem with that one, Admiral. The most recent Sarik plans are for a 1/12 scale Huntress (23") while this thread concerns a 1/12 Swordsman (33"). I did design a 24" Swordsman back when the year started with 19 but that was more or less a straight re-scale of the old Phil Connolly 1/12 Swordsman plan. My plan was a giveaway in MB but Phil's original plan is still available https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/fairey-marine-mm791/ (https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/fairey-marine-mm791/)
Dave M
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Hi Zooma Bob
I have a PDF copy of the original Aerokits Swordsman if you require them.
Just message me and I will send over via We Transfer.
All free of course !!
Harry
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I had this one in mind for upscaling Dave. Am I wrong?
https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/swordsman-plan-mm2058/
Colin
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This thread would be incomplete without the inclusion of DaveM's reference to the Swordsman as "The Floating Country Cottage".
This made me smile when I first read it as I had never heard this before.
I wonder what they would call the stretched Super-Swordsman ..................?
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I had this one in mind for upscaling Dave. Am I wrong?
https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/swordsman-plan-mm2058/ (https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/swordsman-plan-mm2058/)
Colin
That's the one I did in 199frozen-to-death, Colin. John Elsy posted a very good build log of it on Mayhem a while back https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7668.0.html (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7668.0.html) I've no idea how 'scale' it is but it was scaled from Phillip C's plans, although the cockpit area is definitely not correct c/w the full-size and the access to the inside is via a small hatch in the roof and a larger one in the cockpit floor. The new SLEC kit @ 1/16 scale is much more accurate, having been basd on Fairey's own drawings. Nice to see there's still so much interest in what is now a classic.
Dave M
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This all sounds terribly hard work. Why not just buy the Sarik plans designed by Dave Milbourn and scale them up? Much more accurate.
Colin
Yes, there would have been easier options, particularly as we already have the Philip Connolly drawings at the right scale but Bob specifically wanted to build the Aerokits version as he had done many years ago.
But it all adds to the fun! And Bob is a skilled builder so he will overcome the challenges!
Chris
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Hi Zooma Bob
I have a PDF copy of the original Aerokits Swordsman if you require them.
Just message me and I will send over via We Transfer.
All free of course !!
Harry
Hi Harry. You don't have the templates though do you if I remember?
I've got a paper set of the Aerokits drawings but a PDF copy would be useful for doing the superstructure. I had to scan it in multiple images as the work scanner would only do up to A3 and it was a pain piecing it together on the computer.
You should have my email.
Cheers, Chris
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Well, it's all about fun - can't argue with that. I'm currently building a 1903 liner at 1:150 scale using a 1:1200 waterline drawing, photos of the plans from the NMM and photos of the builder's model that used to be in the Science Museum. A lot of headscratching but still fun puzzling it all out.
Colin
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Now that is what I call terribly hard work!!! O0
Chris
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Yes, there would have been easier options, particularly as we already have the Philip Connolly drawings at the right scale but Bob specifically wanted to build the Aerokits version as he had done many years ago.
But it all adds to the fun! And Bob is a skilled builder so he will overcome the challenges!
Chris
Thanks for the "flowers" Chris, but I would consider myself more of a "Bodger" than a "skilled builder" - although if I keep practicing, I may get semi-proficient at it one day
(perhaps).
This build for me is to reproduce a copy of my first model boat - hence my choice to build this model to the Aerokits plan.
I bought my Swordsman kit from Cyril Howes a camera shop in Bath in the Abbey churchyard that opened-up a really large model department that was run by an enthusiastic manager who obviously had access to a big budget as within a few short weeks it became extremely well stocked with everything any modeller could need and sadly, (for me at least) it had all the new kits and radio gear that my favourite much smaller shop (The Modellers Den in Lower Borough Walls, Bath) could not match.
My meagre apprenticeship "wages" were squandered on this kit and I built it in my parents out-house/coal-shed that had no electricity and only a small window so light was a problem as work was restricted to "good" daylight hours only. A regular check outside (or on a special occasion a quick visit to the kitchen) gave me the chance to check everything was done well and correctly aligned - I needed better light to check this!
The adhesives used then were Aerolite 306 and Cascomite. Both of these had to be mixed before use. I remember at the time that the Aerolite 306 came with a glass bottle that contained a clear hardener and was claimed to be the adhesive that was used to glue the "wooden wonder" Mosquito fighter/bomber together - but it was too expensive for me to complete the build with so the majority of the work was held together with Cascomite that came as a powder in a tin that was mixed with water as required.
Although I don't have the luxury of having a kit box with all the parts inside, I do have electric light to illuminate the build and a band saw to cut the wood with. I am also using a modern PVA adhesive as the Cascomite became brittle with age and it was the reason why I coated all of the hulls interior with glass fibre matting and resin to strengthen and water-proof it. Waterproof PVA and Aliphatic adhesives give a stronger bond and retain a little "flex" and so are much better suited for use in a model boat IMHO and are much easier to use -just point and squeeze the tube!
My good craftsman friend and fellow Bath Model Boat Club member built his Swordsman from the Connolly plans and it looked magnificent - but My Aerokits Swordsman definitely performed better so both versions have their advantages and my next build may be rather more "scale-like" ....time will tell.........
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Hi Zooma
My stretched Swordsman is called THE RAVEN which sits on "The Floating Country Cottage"!!!!
Harry
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Hi Zooma
My stretched Swordsman is called THE RAVEN which sits on "The Floating Country Cottage"!!!!
Harry
I have seen the pictures of The Raven "floating cottage extension" and it looks really good - spooky even - and with a name like that maybe it should be painted black.........those yellow acrylic screens you have would look good on a black boat too! %)
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Whilst patching-up the small leak on my Rapier I found myself looking at the pile of freshly cut Swordsman bulkheads and couldn’t resist getting the glue out before travelling back to the van today.
The rear bulkhead has the transom skin formers mounted on it (to give it the curved shape) so I decided to glue these onto the bulkhead whilst it was still flat.
I cut some longer chine formers from 6mm ply as the drawings provided with the plan were about 3/4” too short!
These were glued to the front of the first bulkhead that I had previously glued onto the keel and breasthook, so when I get back I hope to glue all the bulkheads onto the keel so it will start to show the Swordsman shape.
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Picz of Bitz Part1
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Hi Bob
Good to seeing it progressing and looking forward to seeing the hull taking shape.
Chris
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Thanks Chris,
I am back home today and looking forward to seeing if the white PVA that I used to glue the bulkheads has dried OK and penetrated into the wood as it usually does.
The "fillet" of white PVA (still wet) that can be seen in the hastily taken pictures (that I took as I dashed away to the caravan) is something that I have always applied around unseen but important joints.
PVA and Aliphatic adhesives give a slightly more "flexible" bond than other types of adhesive and should survive the rigours of regular power boat use better than some of the others.
I am tempted to use super-glue at times - especially when I would prefer a "fast fix" to secure things in place that I can't easily clamp securely and are likely to move during the drying process if they are not secured adequately.
Super-glue should be OK on all joints (?) and I know that when I am making a stand I always use it to get a fast hold before I nail or screw in a mechanical fixing to support the joints, but soft some reason I don't trust it anywhere on my new hull builds - unless it is impossible to use PVA/Aliphatic adhesives.
Does anyone on Mayhem build wooden power boats using only suer-glue?.......and if so, has there been any problems with bond failure after extended and regular use on a performance hull ?
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Unfortunately I did not spot this smellin' mistook in time, so I have not been able to correct:-
"Does anyone on Mayhem build wooden power boats using only suer-glue?."
What I was hoping to find out was if anyone was happy to build their wooden model power boats using super-glue as the main adhesive, and if so, has there been any bond failures after regular hard performance use over a long period?
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Yes, I have built boats using primarily superglue, including the structural frames and stringers. This one was done in 2014 and is in regular use. So far so good!
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/30/go-1.jpg)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/30/go-2.jpg)
Greg
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Thanks Greg,
That is very reassuring as your boat is not exactly taking it easy!
I like to drive my boats fast like that every time I run them (this probably makes me a white water junkie) and the amount of "hammering" that the hull takes cannot be compared with most scale model boats that serenely glide around the lake.
The amount of pressure and the regular hard impacts the hull takes when being driven fast and hard must put a lot more stress on the hull joints and my fear was that a non-flexy bond would be a lot more prone to fracture - and ultimately fail much sooner than a comparatively flexible PVA/Aliphatic joint.
Building with super-glue would certainly speed things up a bit!
.......nice pictures too - thanks for sharing them!
Bob.
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.......nice pictures too - thanks for sharing them!
Bob.
Yes they are, but I take no credit. A local camera club happened along one day and asked to use my boat as an exercise in doing panning shots, so I zipped backwards and forwards for a while as they snapped away. Got some very nice pictures out of it! :} :}
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My plan to fit the bulkheads onto the keel with the cabin sides took a bit of a knock last night as although everything went together, I was not convinced that it was correct - something did not "feel" quite right.
For some reason, I decided to place the cabin sides onto the Aerokits plan and found that they were a little too long and the location notches were not perfectly aligned.
I had cut the cabin sides from the templates that came with the plan (eBay) - what could go wrong??
Anyway, I could have cut a new pair of cabin sides, but I decided to modify the ones I already had to size and put up with the previously cut alignment notches showing on the underside of the cabin sides as I know these will be out of sight on the finished model.
Once adjusted everything fitted well enough so I assembled it using a new type of super-glue developed by King Cobra Racing as it is especially thin and "wicks" very quickly into the wood, but here is the clever bit - it drys a little more flexible than a regular super-glue!
I though this would be ideal for use when building my Swordsman as it allowed me to work quickly and ensure everything was fixed in place as the various parts were held square, but should also be durable and able to cope with some rough use!
This glue is not expensive and was developed for sticking the tyres onto large scale racing cars where the power of a race-tuned 26cc Zenoah is more than capable of ripping the tyre off of the rim, and even a good bond with a regular super-glue was known to fail in time as the tyre (and the rim) flexed in use. This glue holds fast as the slightly flexible bond can stay secure and accommodate this slight movement between the tyre and rim.
If anyone is interested, I can post a link for this flexi super-glue as I think it could be perfect for use on model boats. As well as this super-thin flexible super-glue, Richard at King Cobra Racing also has regular thin, medium and thick varieties of his super-glue to cover most needs.
Now I have the bulkheads and the cabin sides (with the front screen) securely fixed I can take the next step in the assembly and fit the inside deck supports to the cabin sides prior to fitting the stringers.
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Last night I fitted the inside deck supports to the cabin sides, the deck and chine stringers and the doublers.
I reverted back to PVA for this task as I like to have more time to fit the stringers and the 1/8 x 1/4 doublers.
This morning I removed all of the clamps and was able to "eye-up" the stringers at deck level and chine level and they all flow nicely. I always draw a centre line on the bulkheads and I make them symmetrical so I can look along the boat to check to make sure all of these centre lines are inline with each other so I know that there has been no twist when fixing the stringers - and everything lines up OK so I know the hull is built nice and sqaure.
I will check this again after the bottom skins are fitted, but it should stay "square" and twist free from now onwards, and the next job that I will do should ensure no twist creeps into the build.
This "next job" is something that I always like to do, but many consider it totally unnecessary . I like to fix additional 1/8 x 1/4 strips to each side of the bulkheads that will have any skinning glued to it to give a much larger contact area for the hull skins and deck section to stick to.
This is a fiddly and time consuming job, but it adds a lot of strength without the need to cut the main components out of a thicker plywood. I will also add extra wood around the the edges of the bow to increase the bonding area of the skins where they all join together.
On some previous models I have actually filled most of the "void" in the bow area with balsa wood to give a massive additional bonding surface, but I want to include some high density foam in this space to give extra buoyancy and resistance to impact damage (I have never had any impact damage since I started running model boats - but there is always the first time and I like to build strong models).
Boats like the Swordsman do not have to be built "super-light" to perform well, and I would rather add a small amount of extra weight making the boat stronger than end up having to add any useless "dead weight" to bring the boat down to the marks.
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PLANKING?
I am not ready for this stage yet - but I am considering planking the deck to give a more authentic appearance. My first 1960's Swordsman was painted red and white and looked good as a "racing boat" (red deck - no planking) but I have never tried to plank any model boat before and perhaps this could be my first attempt?
The "12 inch to the foot" scale pictures that Chris has kindly shared with us on this thread suggest that the decking is a lighter colour than the mahogany colour deck edging, and actually look a bit grey in colour?
I have not seen a plan picture of the way the planks meet together on the foredeck, but I guess they probably meet on a central "spine" of some shape or design that I would like to see and copy.
Also, can anyone suggest what width and thickness of wood to use for this planking please? I have no idea what sort of width 1/12 scale planking would be as used on a Swordsman and I don't know how thin the planks would normally be when glued on top of a plywood skin.
Hopefully when I get some info, I can try to cut the planking on my bandsaw - and the central "spline" too ( once I know what sort of shape it should be).
I am guessing that the top edges of the planks should have their edges slightly chamfered so that when they are fitted together it will leave a slight grove that can then be filled with something to resemble a cauk line between the planks?
Lastly, what would be the best adhesive to glue the cut planks down onto the plywood skinned deck?
It sounds like planking can be a lot of work, but it is something that I have never tried so I am tempted.....................
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Hi Bob
I've replied to your email but basically the planks need to be 5mm wide at 1:12 having counted those on the real thing! The light grey is weathered teak but I prefer the "new" honey colour.
I'm following Joe's Hunters Moon build method and timber choice - his thread will answer some of your other questions.
Bow layout to follow.
Cheers, Chris
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Hi Zooma
I used veneer strips of Blackwood and Huon Pine on my Eileen fishing boat.
Glue down the center planks.
Dry fitted planks together with masking tape and mark the area.
Added glue, then folded planks back down.
Canabus
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Hi Bob
I've replied to your email but basically the planks need to be 5mm wide at 1:12 having counted those on the real thing! The light grey is weathered teak but I prefer the "new" honey colour.
I'm following Joe's Hunters Moon build method and timber choice - his thread will answer some of your other questions.
Bow layout to follow.
Cheers, Chris
Thanks Chris,
5mm plank width is what I will try cutting - and I will also see just how thin I can cut them on my bandsaw.
I will check Joes thread for details about the wood and adhesive choice.
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Hi Zooma
I used veneer strips of Blackwood and Huon Pine on my Eileen fishing boat.
Glue down the center planks.
Dry fitted planks together with masking tape and mark the area.
Added glue, then folded planks back down.
Canabus
Thanks Chris,
Is that PVA glue you are using?
Bob.
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Sorry if this image comes out small, but it's a shot of the real thing - "Tireur".
Dave M
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Thanks Dave,
That is a very informative picture.
Sun faded "teak" (light grey) may not be too easy to find, but the darker wood (mahogany colour) makes a really nice contrast - and the picture suggests that this dark wood area is slightly raised and so it may be possible to replicate this from a separate shape that could be laid-on after the planking is completed.
Presumably, the real Swordsman deck is planked into the sightly thicker "armature" and so this would be the most authentic way to go?
I will start looking to see if I can find any grey coloured wood to strip, but failing that I will see if i can find any pre-cut 5mm wide teak strips and wait for it to fade naturally!
Bob.
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Morning Bob
First time planking for me too.
I've been using Titebond 3 on my Riva, planks for the deck are 3mmx1mm. Good initial grip with the Titebond, and working time of a few minutes to get joints tight. I'd lay a thin bead of glue (with a precision nozzle) at edge of the earlier plank to avoid 'voids' and glue planks together as well as down to the deck. A second thin bead down middle of the length of the new plank, then fit and clamp / masking tape to hold down. I found that applying side pressure before clamping helps to keep the joints tight.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/21/IMG_1467-Custom.jpg)
Also found the centre ruler very helpful to keep everything symmetrical.
Hope that helps.
David.
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Thanks David,
That does help - and your progress as a "first time planker" %) gives me some encouragement .
On the Swordsman the real life craft is over 33 ft long, so the planks would have needed to be joined to cover the length of the deck somewhere, and presumably these joints would be staggered so ensure the they never ended all in the same place.
I need to find some pictures that show the side decking area as I would guess there must be one (possibly two) areas where the available length of Teak planking would dictate to some degree or other where these joints would be.
Nice work David - are you chamfering the edges of each plank to give a "caulking gap" or are you butt joining them?
Stay safe!
Bob.
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There are numerous piccies of real Swordsmen on the Fairey Owners Club website Gallery.
I based my own pre-production model for the SLEC kit prototype on Tireur. The deck planking was laser-scored for me by those very nice people at Watton in birch ply. On that particular model I went for the "honey-coloured" effect by using Rustins Plastic Coating (which is actually a very hard 2-pack furniture finish) with a mahogany surround. I later found when doing a subsequent model of Huntress that this gives an excellent reproduction of weathered teak when you use the OSMO stuff suggested by Andy Waters on his Lobster Boat. It's eye-wateringly expensive but I have a lot left over - make me an offer? 8)
Attached photos relate to Huntress and link is to my model of Swordsman. https://www.modelboats.co.uk/sites/2/images/member_albums/1480/829730.jpg (https://www.modelboats.co.uk/sites/2/images/member_albums/1480/829730.jpg)
If you can drawn an accurate template of the planking shape, preferably in CAD, then I'm sure that a laser-scored deck and cockpit floor panels can be arranged.
Dave M
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Thanks Dave,
I have sent you a PM and my details so we can arrange for me to transfer the payment for the stains to you today.
Many thanks,
Bob.
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Hi Bob
My build is at 1/10, the kit supplies 1x1mm (lime.?) as a spacer between the 1x3mm mahogany strips.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/09/22/IMG_1476-Custom.jpg)
So I'm just butting these together, I think this is an intentional two tone effect to the planking rather than a caulking effect.
I guess you have a slightly different effect needed, so yes a slight bevel might work with some suitable filler. I'd defer to the Swordsman builders on that... And for sure test on scrap first.
Best of luck
David.
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That looks nice David - and it suites your boat really well.
I will be practicing on some scrap off-cuts long before committing my activities to my Swordsman deck!
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I've read a few threads on planking in the past and favoured methods include using thin black card or running a black pen down the joints.
However seeing the result that Joe has achieved and our builds being at a slightly smaller scale I'm going with just butting the planks together.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I have a challenge for you!
Do you have any idea how long the planks of teak were that Fairey used on the Swordsman decks by any chance?
Failing that, do you have any pictures in your vast expanse of Fairey info that shows how and where they are joined please?
I could just plank the deck with 36" lengths of 5mm wide wood, but I doubt that Fairey had too many 33ft + lengths of Teak that would enable them to plank all of the 61 Swordsman that they made (including some longer Super Swordsman hulls) with no joints at all.
My guess would be that they join them somewhere along the side decks and that they would have made a series of staggered joints, but this would still need some very long planks of teak between 17ft and 18 ft long, so they may have made more than one joint per plank width, and if so, I would guess that they could be fairly random to spread the joints whilst still keeping them looking as attractive as possible for their wealthy customers.
Bob.
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Hi Bob
You don't ask for much do you! :-)
But continuing with Tireur as she is one of the best examples of a Swordsman. One photo shows an earlier weathered deck and all I've found is a single joint (so one each side) about half way down, in the outermost plank, near the mooring rope, so about 16 foot long planks there.
The other photo looks to be after refurbishment and she looks a beauty. There are multiple joints where there was one before. Given that many/most Faireys have had new decks over the years I'd say go with what you fancy.
At this scale I'm going with no joints!
Chris
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Thanks Chris,
You are "the man that can" when it comes to information on Fairey boats.........and I thought the challenge would spike you into action :-))
Stay safe,
Bob.
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Here's the front view after refurb. and as I said a beauty.
I've got some Schooner tung oil I've used on my Huntsman 28 deck (plain birch ply) which provides a nice honey colour which I shall be using.
Chris
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Thanks Chris,
You are "the man that can" when it comes to information on Fairey boats.........and I thought the challenge would spike you into action :-))
Stay safe,
Bob.
I would have done it sooner but was having our weekly overdose of Only Connect and University Challenge plus this week with Mastermind. I'm happy if I get one of the Only Connect questions right and a couple of the word wall sequences!
Looking at the first photo again it looks like every other board has a joint which makes sense.
Chris
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Another example that shows staggered joints near the front of the cabin so I guess the planks are in thirds.
So no set pattern and no one is going to count your rivets!
Chris
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mmmmm :o and two totally different anchoring [hardware] between both examples.......Chris
Both have the Fluke [on standby] with one Bent Sand/Bruce/Plough on chain...[the latter has many names depending on location and or Country]
Derek
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Thanks Dave,
I have sent you a PM and my details so we can arrange for me to transfer the payment for the stains to you today.
Many thanks,
Bob.
I love the stuff :-) SLEC lasered decking :-))
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Midwest-Booth-Bay-Lobster-boat/i-8Bvgn9q/0/da0f5899/X3/0550FA1C-CB1F-4A5B-88BA-EC8659A7FB3B-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Midwest-Booth-Bay-Lobster-boat/i-hwfJKVX/1/aaeee4fb/4K/D6ADC260-CD02-4730-AAC9-0D3B3BCB693F-4K.jpg)
Awesome Dave
(https://www.modelboats.co.uk/sites/2/images/member_albums/1480/829730.jpg)
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The precious deck stain has arrived safely from DM and it is now sat on the shelf ready for when I have got far enough to have a use for it!
Meanwhile, back on the bench, I have finished adding 1/8" x 1/4" obechie strip doublers to each lower edge of the 4mm bulkheads to increase the bonding area for the lower hull skins and for the same reason I have added some narrow and shaped 1/2" balsa wood to the bows on the lower keel and under the chine former as the plywood skins go all the way to the front of the bows and I want to give them a bigger bonding area rather than relying on the small surface area that the keel (with doublers) and the chine former have to offer.
I am also adding 1/8" x 1/4" obechie strips to the side edges of the bulkheads to increase the bonding area for the side skins too.
The Aerokits construction method uses the well established technique of doubling the first 1/8" x 1/4" obechie stringers with a second laminated layer to give a 1/4" x 1/4" profile prior to sanding shape. After these laminated stringers have been sanded to shape on a deep "V" hull like this, the bonding area for the lower skin gets reduced, so I added anther strip of 1/8" x 1/4" on the underside and when this is included in the sanded profile the bonding area looks a little healthier (about 9mm wide).
A little (but not much) extra weight will have been added to the hull by doing this, but the bonding area will have been increased significantly and hopefully this will give a good strong hull that can withstand some abuse for several years to come.
All of my boats get used on a regular basis and I often like to drive them fast (white water junkie?), but I also expect them to last for some time so a little extra reinforcement during the construction (that does not adversely affect the overall weight) is something that I like to include whenever possible.
With more "lock-downs" due to the spread of Covid looking likely in the near future, we are going away for a few days in our caravan (while we can) so there won't be any more progress on any of my builds until after we get home again later. Our return date could be dictated by HMG, but it will probably be early next week!
Enjoy your weekend!
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Hi Bob
Like you I've added some additional timbers to increase the gluing area but I don't worry about the bottom and sides of the bulkheads unless there is a joint as the skins are basically spanning between the stringers. But personal preference and it doesn't hurt.
Mine's getting pretty heavy already, not that it matters, and is as solid as a rock!
I hope your caravans well insulated!
Chris
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If I remember correctly Chris, you used thicker plywood for your keel and bulkheads than I did?
I used the kit specified plywood in these areas and without the additional doublers I would have had a lot less surface area to bond to that you have achieved by using heaver gauge plywood.
There is a strong possibility that neither of us need to have worried as my original Aerokits Swordsman never had any additional strengthening during the assembly and it was always driven hard with a 10cc Merco 61 twin-plug glow motor - including racing it off-shore - and on one occasion in a 6ft swell!
In addition, the adhesives used then were probably not so good (Cascamite and Aerolite 306) as the powerful (and impact resistant) PVA and Aliphatic resins that we mostly use these days.
I also added two part expanding "boyancy foam" in the bows. These two additions were (in the case of the resin) partly to fuel proof the wood, and the foam was to stop it sinking if I got into trouble when out at sea - but I am sure that both would have helped to strengthen the hull !
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Yes you're right Bob, I used 6mm ply for bulkheads and for the keel and doublers. I even use 6mm for the keel and doublers in my little Huntress build, but much reduced in height and once profiled for the skins they don't weigh that much.
I should have cut out the middle of Bulkhead 3 on the Swordsman though, lack of experience there. I'm not going to bother removing it though now. The motor should be plenty powerful enough! It's stopping it that will be the problem!
Chris
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Hi Chris,
The link I forwarded to you by email shows a superb Swordsman - the White Swordsman - a fabulous example that has recently gained a new owner.
The description below tells us all we need to know about its condition:-
"Entered for the Fairey Owners’ Concours d’Elegance in 3 years out of the last 5 and winning all 3 is testament enough to WHITE SWORDSMAN’s condition."
http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/yacht/180/fairey-swordsman-33-ft-aft-cabin-1964
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Yes, it's certainly a lovely example.
It's great that there are folks around who are having these old girls brought back to their former glory and maintaining them as such.
It's also a pity that others are deteriorating due to them being a moneypit.
Chris
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It's also a pity that others are deteriorating due to them being a moneypit.
True, but when a wooden boat gets beyond a certain point you are really on a hiding to nothing.
Colin
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True, but when a wooden boat gets beyond a certain point you are really on a hiding to nothing.
Colin
True - even when on a smaller scale Colin...............I was thinking about my restoration project Chris Craft Corvette....... :((
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Bow stuff and doublers.
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I thought I would cut out the paper bottom skin templates that came with the Swordsman plans that I bought on eBay.
Well, that was interesting! The side skin is in fact the bottom skin (!) and despite what was printed on the bottom skin it is definitely the side skin!!
I presented the side (bottom skin) to the hull and found that it was shorter than the hull and the shape at the transom was also not like the false transom shape! I quickly checked the length of my construction, and found that it was the length that it should be and that the transom formers did fit the Aerokits plan as they should.
Sadly, we are not eating enough cereal these days to keep up with my template production, but I was able to flatten a small box that the Twinings "Everyday Tea" came in, and also the box that my wife's breakfast biscuits came in, and with a little masking tape to cover the necessary joints I had enough cardboard to cover the length of a real bottom skin.
After cutting my new template out I checked it against the hull and it fitted well so I drew around it onto some plywood skin and cut them out using my Tamiya razor saw.
Checking the new cut bottom skins against the hull they fitted OK, so when I get back from the caravan I will get them fitted.
Meanwhile, I need to start looking for some other cardboard boxes that can be flattened and pressed into service as my side skin templates!
Enjoy your weekend!
Bob.
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Hi Bob
Those templates are only any good for lighting a fire!
For my templates I bought a few sheets of thin card from Rymans. More expensive but good!
What thickness are you using for the skins?
Chris
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I think my recycled templates are very ethical- and they give me something to read too, but the story is a bit disjointed and they don’t have much of a plot!
When we get back to “normal “ again and we can go shopping I may invest in some posh card, especially if they have any printed like cereal boxes :-))
I am using 1.5mm skins (if I remember correctly), but I will check when we get home.
Enjoy your weekend.
Bob.
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Sorry I meant the templates provided by that "gifted" draughtsman on EBay! Nothing wrong with cereal boxes etc. though I've been spoilt by my posh card now.
I used 1.5mm ply as well, the hull is incredibly strong. Started cutting out and fitting the mahogany bow detail in readiness for planking. Well one half's fitted, the other broke when cutting out on the scroll saw due to a weakness in the timber and am now having to make another one - really fiddly job and I've got the edgings to do yet.
Chris
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I knew your reference was to the expertly drawn templates that came with the plans I bought from eBay.
To be honest, I am surprised that the seller could make such a hash of drawing around the original wooden kit parts - so maybe they were drawn free-hand?
It’s good to see your Swordsman is on the go again.
What thickness of mahogany are you cutting to make the bow detailing from - and the planking?
I don’t have any wood for detailing the deck with yet, but I guess I should get something on order as I am at the skinning stage now and once that is completed I could think about adding some planking.
Bob.
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Free-hand, from memory and wearing a blindfold!
I'm following Joe's method in his Hunters Moon build, so 1.5mm mahogany with 0.5 x5mm Tanganyka planks fitted to a 0.8mm ply base. I've left the coamings off the inside of the deck for now to make fitting easier and allow me to sand the edge of the plank/base sandwich. Must admit I'm nervous of the planks being as they are so thin, which of course makes them easier to bend sideways.
Good thing about this method is that it's done off the model so if I cock it up I can do it again!
Chris
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Oh - I have never seen the sub-deck idea before - I was just going to plank directly onto the deck.
Presumably you need to lower the deck line to allow for the extra thickness - or maybe it doesn't matter too much as few would notice the closer window to deck margin?
I have not fitted my deck skins yet, so I will have a think......
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Before fitting the lower skins I thought I would make a final check on my choice of an 11" 5mm Maxidrive prop shaft while I can clearly see through the skeleton of the Swordsman frame - and check the prop clearance under the hull.
The shaft angle used is as drawn on the original Aerokits plan and when fitting an X50 prop (the biggest size that I would want to fit for any brushless motor that I have in mind) and there is plenty of clearance and enough shaft protruding through the engine bay bulkhead to connect to my Powerflex coupling and the 5mm shaft of the brushless motors.
I think the 11" shaft length will be a good choice for the 1/12 scale Swordsman as it is long enough to fit the biggest size prop that I would ever want to fit, and is also short enough to mount the motor as far back in the hull as possible to help prevent the nose-down attitude that the Fairey hulled models are prone to.
Brushless motors are not heavy, but everything helps and there is enough spacing between the engine bay "firewall" bulkhead and the next bulkhead to fit a pair of hard cased 5600mah LiPo's "side by side" so I am hoping that this will balance the hull well - but realise that "the proof is always in the pudding" and until I run the boat for the first time I will not know.........
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Oh - I have never seen the sub-deck idea before - I was just going to plank directly onto the deck.
Presumably you need to lower the deck line to allow for the extra thickness - or maybe it doesn't matter too much as few would notice the closer window to deck margin?
I have not fitted my deck skins yet, so I will have a think......
Hi Bob
Neither had I.
My original plan was to plank the deck but was then considered getting it laser etched, even went as far as getting TurboCad to produce the cutting file. This method brings it's own problems though, easy enough fitting to a flat deck but not so easy to a cambered one particularly if there's a curved shear as well - I straightened the shear on my Huntsman 31 build to simplify things - going to plank that as well now.
Seeing Joe's method and the result he had achieved swung me back to planking though. Despite what Joe says it isn't easy though (he is modest and very skilful) but I like being able to plank and clamp off the boat.
Part of getting a good finish is getting a good fit of the 0.8mm ply base and planks within the bow detail and deck edgings. I will finish those tomorrow ready for starting the templates - posh card!
Yes you're right, in theory the extra depth of the planking should be allowed for but at 1.5mm in my case I'm not worried about it and it's too late anyway! A thinner or lower breast hook would have been required and dropping the deck stringers accordingly. The usual planking on deck method could be slightly thinner if using e.g. 1mm thick planks. With my lift off superstructure the deck to window dimension isn't affected as the superstructure sits on the deck.
One little problem I have at the bow area is that the vertical bit where the rubbing strips fit will be deeper than the 5mm deep strips I intend to fit. It's too late to reduce those by sanding as the hull has had cloth and resin applied now. Maybe not, I can always patch the cloth, will see what it looks like.
Chris
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Thanks for your thoughts regarding your planking options Chris - it has certainly helped as I consider the options - including just painting the deck!
One of the lower hull skins was fitted last night and I want to fit the other side today so I can get the drive train aligned and fitted before cutting the side skins.
I tend to take a lot of time aligning the shaft, rigid alignment coupling and motor mount, but once it is all sorted I can make some side skin templates (I am already looking for suitable thin card boxes!) before making the deck templates, and these will need some more thin cardboard boxes %) .
Part of me just wants to get this boat built and in the water as I have not run a Swordsman for well over 50 years (!) ........and a painted deck would certainly help speed things up !
However, the opportunity to learn a new skill and plank the deck certainly appeals to me, but I may make another Swordsman to make good use of all those nice individually decorated templates that I have made as they will remind me of all the cereals, teas, biscuits etc that have been eaten - and I could plank that one..............
Lots to think about (as always) including where to buy suitable thin woods for the deck planking. I even considered making the planking out of thin plywood that I could strip on the bandsaw and colour it with the stains I have just acquired, but I think thin strip wood would bend easier and would certainly save a lot of time!
Bob.
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Hi Bob
I'm careful with prop shaft alignment as well and use a solid coupling for setting up.
Another option for the deck that some do is drawing lines on with a pencil before staining etc. which can look effective. With my Huntsman 28 I fancied a high gloss finish (totally unscalelike!) and so put a birch ply deck on and then used International Yacht Paints Schooner tung oil varnish. Looks great but definitely not a Fairey look! Race boats often had painted decks so no problem there.
Cornwall Model Boats have a good selection of strip wood.
Chris
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I fitted the second bottom skin this morning, but I have not done as good a job with it as I would have liked!
The skin looked like it was a good fit when I check it with a dry fit, but once all the glue was on and the brass tacks went in to secure it a slight gap has crept in between the keel and the edge of the skin as it wrapped around the bows.
I am rather disappointed and would prefer not to use any filler - especially in the bows area, but I have no option so it looks like a little P38 will have to get mixed-up to fill the small gap - and I after I have fixed on all of the spray rails and chine rails I may even think about covering the entire hull with some sort of thin woven cloth bonded on with glass fibre resin to ensure this small filled area is totally secured.
Maybe this would be "over-kill" so I will see how I feel come nearer the time when I have to decide as I know a lot of people have successfully used P38 or Plastic Padding over the years to plug small gaps with complete success.
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Fitting the small square rails to the underside of the Swordsman hull would probably be easier if using super-glue.
I have noticed that modern woods tend to split more easily than the old stuff, so nailing into position when waiting for PVA to dry is not too appealing and taping down may not give the precision needed when running parallel rails alongside each other.
Anyone had success fixing these rails accurately?
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Drilling holes with a pin vice before inserting the pins prevents splitting so shouldn't be a problem. The pins serve to locate the rails accurately then you can use tape to hold them down while the glue sets. You have the option of leaving the pins in place and cutting then off flush within the hull to maintain strength or withdrawing them and filling in the holes.
Colin
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Hi Bob
I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about a small gap in skins near the bow, usually have to use some P38 anyway if balsa blocks are used. Cloth and resin covers the ply, balsa and P38 a treat.
Do the cloth and resin before fitting the chine and spray rails as very difficult to do neatly over them and then glue them using a slow cure CA e.g. Slo Zap which gives you time to accurately position them - I start from the front and work back having drawn pencil lines on the hull and glue a few inches at a time. After gluing you can run fillets of resin and micro-balloons down each side to fill in any gaps and fair them in. After which I gave them a couple of coats of resin, Eze-Kote in my case.
Photo attached of those on my Huntsman 28. Ideally they should be triangular in section but square was easier to do. They can be planed etc. to make triangular before fitting but tricky to do. Might have a go on other builds.
Chris
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I returned last night and sanded the bottom skins back to the stringers and the P38 that I used to fill the small gaps between where the skin edge meets the keel (or should have done better than it did!).
Looking along the up-turned hull, everything looks good and square so I have ordered some Eze-Kote and some 1oz glass fibre cloth to have my first go at applying a finishing resin.
If it all goes well and I don't end up with pockets of trapped air etc, I will order some 2 pack finishing resin (such as Z-Poxy) to cover my Corvette hull as this hull is a real mixture of planked balsa wood, hard wood repair strips, paints, all sorts of aged filler and carved balsa wood bows.
Even after a good sanding back I think there will be patches of all these different materials exposed , and I don't think any water based resin would stand much chance of getting a good grip over this motley collection of mixed surfaces!
While I am waiting for the Eze-Kote and glass cloth to be delivered for the Swordsman I will start to add some 1/8" x 1/4" doublers to the edges of the bulkheads to give a bigger bonding area for the side skins to fix onto. This worked well on the bottom edges of the bulkheads and has given the bottom skins a nice solid bonding area.
The original Aerokits building instructions suggest cutting the top of the lower skins along the centre line of the chine stringers at the bows to give a butt joint with the side skins when they are butt fitted to them - but the rest of the side skins (once away from this area) just overlap the bottom skins in the usual way.
I have cut the bottom skins over the chine former in this way to give a square butt joint edge (using my Tamiya razor saw) but I sanded the rest of the bottom skins to the edge of the bulkheads and stringers in the more usual way, so the side skins will overlap along the sides of the hull.
My last Aerokits Swordsman was built in the 1960's - and I honestly cannot remember having a butt joint and cutting the bottom skins in this way - but I am up for it, and have cut the skins accordingly, but if things "don't go to plan" I can easily sand this small area of the bottom skin back at the bow and overlap the side skins all the way "as per normal".
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I know that many model boat makers really enjoy crafting beautifully proportioned stands to display their model on, but in all honesty I hate making boat stands, but with the bottom skins fitted I now need a stand to hold the model upright as I work out the motor mount shapes prior to fitting the side skins.
My boat stands are box-like, as small and low as possible, and with a little space underneath the hull to carry any small oddments that I may like to have with me such as a spanner, Allen key or alternative prop - but the main function is just to hold the boat safely upright in the workshop and when being transported.
I started by making the stand ends, spaced to fit under bulkheads B2 and B4 ( about 12" apart) and managed to get the width down to 10" so that is the size of the box stand(s) that are made as low as possible without the prop scraping the along the ground. They will gain a little height as I fit a rubber cushion mount on each corner to protect any surface (and keep myself out of trouble with my long suffering and very understanding wife - who may possibly read this one day!).
I keep the same stand that I use to build the boat on, and only paint it and add some foam cushions to protect the paint after the building is completed. The stand stays with the boat for life - basic but it does the job!
Today I picked-up an original Aerokits Swordsman kit that had been started by a deceased father-in-law but never completed. The box reminded me of the day I parted with my hard earned cash and proudly carried my first new kit home sometime in the late 60's.
With encouragement (and pictures and drawings) from ChrisF, I will get both models to the same stage and then decide which two different 33ft Swordsman variants to model. One will have the low rear cabin (as per Aerokits) but the other will either have the raised rear cabin or possibly become an open cockpit variant ....whilst still working on restoring the Chris Craft Corvette - just to keep me occupied!
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More piccys!
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Hi,
On pics S2 and S3, i'm assuming those are nails holding the skins? If so, do you plan on removing them (quite hard to do i would think)?
Thanks,
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Yes the skins are held in position with brass nails while the PVA glue sets.
Over the years I have removed these nails (it is not too hard to dig under the head with a 1/2" chisel to lift them up enough to get a hold with some pincers) and also left them in (usually the head disappears during the finish sanding process so only the brass shaft remains as a pin).
When I have left the nails in, they have never protruded out in use (as long as I sanded them down properly in the first place), but I agree that it is a possibility.
If the nails were not brass then I wouldn't hesitate to remove them.
Hooking the nails out leaves holes and sometimes a little surface damage too that will need filling, so neither method is without its consequences.
Currently I prefer to leave the brass nails in place and sand them down as this method retains the brass shaft as a pin to reinforce the joint, needs no filler to cover the holes, and being brass it cannot rust or cause any problems that I have seen since I started doing this in the 1960's.
I have to say that this is a subject that has caused a lot of debate over the years (sometimes heated debate !) so there will always be some that will disagree with my findings, so you have raised an interesting subject and I can only comment on my current thoughts and findings to date.
Hope this helps - Bob.
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TRIANGULAR SECTION HARDWOOD STRIP.
I have been trying to find a source of small triangular section hardwood to use for making strakes on my Swordsman, but I do not know anywhere that sells it.
The part-built Aerokits Swordsman kit that I have recently picked-up has some small triangular section hardwood in the box (!) - so it does exist - I just need to find out where I can buy some more and to find out if there is any choice of sizes.
Can anyone help please?
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The super set of drawings that came with my eBay purchased Swordsman plans did not include T6 - or if it did - I never saw it!
This part sits on top of the false transom assembly to support the afterdeck so I just copied the curve from the top of the rear bulkhead and cut some 6mm ply to sit at the same height and glued it on top, but this leaves a gap that needs to be bridged between where it ends and the top of the rear transom skin.
Although the transom skin is 1.5mm (and being curved it will have some strength), the bonding area between it and the after-deck would only be where it and the same thickness of 1.5mm rear deck join onto each other. The plan nor the kit show any reinforcement in this area and my memory for the 1960's does not recall how I resolved this, so I cut two small 6mm bracing pieces to fit between my version of T6 and the transom skin joint.
I filled the spaces between these 6mm braces with some scrap 1/2" balsa wood and sanded them to shape to give a good bonding area and to support the rear deck and the transom skin.
Once this was done I cut the small aft decking and held it down with some gaffer tape to keep it in place whilst the PVA dried.
Before "turning it in" for the night I joined a couple of thin cardboard tea boxes together with masking tape and made a template for a side skin, so if the rear assembly has worked out and looks OK when I peel the gaffer tape off the next job will be to get a pair of side skins cut.
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Sort of explains last post!
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Thanks for posting the progress pictures for my Tony - my old Mac and my lack of any computer knowledge prevent me from posting them myself. Even my wife is getting fed-up with my ancient and slow MAC - if we actually need to do anything in a reasonable time we find our olde iPhones are at least 20 times faster ...even though my arthritic hands struggled with the small keys - it is still much faster !
Anyway, I used quite a lot of gaffa tape to hold the rear deck down onto the top of the false transom as I could not use enough brass nails to hold it down to shape as some would be driven into balsa wood and others into the edge of the 1.5mm transom skin - neither of which would be very practical or likely to succeed.
As I peeled away the gaffa tape there were no gaps, so it had done its job and I was able to dress the edges back to make a neat joint.
The side skin templates needed to have an accurate "step" in them where they change from being a butt joint at the bows to the regular overlap so I took my time getting this bit right! As previously mentioned, I recycle any useful card packaging to use as templates for my bulkheads/keel and side skin templates etc.
Nice new clean card would be preferable and would probably save me having to make so many joins using wide masking tape, but I have failed to plan a suitable shopping trip - so I use whatever I can find to hand when I need to make anther shape.
My search for triangular section obechie (or similar) to make the strakes from continues as I emailed SLEC today in the hope that I could persuade them to stock some - and even include some in their kits perhaps?
The reply suggested that I could sand some to shape, so I guess the person who wrote this has never attempted to sand x10 36" lengths of 1/8" x 1/8" obechie to an accurate triangular shape!
Lets hope SLEC has some other enquires as I am sure triangular obechie would be a helpful addition to their wood stock that would sell quite well.
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Could you use angle upside down? These guys do timber strips 24" long.
https://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/
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That is a good bit of lateral thinking there Mudway!
Fixing the angle strips upside-down onto the bottom skins of the hull would give a good choice of size's for making strakes from, and being hollow they would save some weight too (!).
It would be a lot easer if we could buy triangular section obechie strips, but as nobody can find a source of these any more we have to look at alternatives and using inverted angle strips is certainly worth a look.
Sanding 36" lengths of square obechie down to an accurate triangular section is not for the feint hearted - especially as the Aerokits Swordsman uses 5 strips per side so 10 strips would be needed (more if any are split as they are bent to shape or nailed to the hull!).
When hardwood suppliers can cut accurate square section obechei down to very small sizes, it must be possible to make triangular strip just as easily. If the strip wood makers could do it in the 1960's (and earlier), then modern technology must make it at least as easy to make them now - but if there is not enough demand to make it financially viable it is unlikely that we will be seeing any on sale anytime soon.
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See your e-mails Bob,
This may be useful if you can deal with 12" lengths. See 332/333 etc.
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See your e-mails Bob,
This may be useful if you can deal with 12" lengths. See 332/333 etc.
I have checked them out already thank you Tony (since you gave me the link this morning), and they are certainly a valuable source of supply.
https://www.wood-supplies.com/downloads/catalogue2017/Wood-Supplies-2017-Price-List.pdf
Their range of miniature wood mouldings are primarily aimed at the dolls houses makers and can be bought in 1/12 scale (!) but their range of triangular section hardwoods is very impressive starting as small as 1/32" x 1/32". Some of the slightly larger sizes of 1/16" x 1/16", 3/32" x 3/32" and 1/8" x 1/8" could be really helpful and they go up in small size increments right the way up to 3/4" x 3/4" - so plenty to work with!
As Tony says, the triangular sections are only made in 12" lengths, but given our limited alternatives this could be a very acceptable option for us to consider.
Some of the other wooden mouldings could also be of interest for use on our model boats - and some of them come in slightly longer 18" lengths too.
Thanks Tony - very helpful :-))
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Being as they produce it themselves it would be worth asking if they can do longer lengths. We don't really want joints in strakes. Thinking about it, the reason they probably don't do long lengths as standard is the postage. I bought some 1.0m lengths of styrene and the postage was about £17! I did make it a bit more palatable by adding some brass rod for the pulpit rails.
Interesting what they say about obechi. Certainly a good supplier for some mouldings.
Chris
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Obechie:- Pale cream in colour with a slightly coarse open grain. This is the wood commonly found in the model shops. Jelutong can be judged to be a far superior alternative in every respect.
The above description of obechi when compared to Jelutong is interesting.
I have never used Jelutong or know if it would be superior for our intended model boat building use as we know that Obechi conforms well and suites our purpose very well, but they have identified the slightly course open grain nature of the wood correctly and on some poor examples it can even be described as being quite hairy!
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NO GO to longer than 12" because that's how they get their core stock in. I had a long chat with them this a.m. including asking the question, but they are in the dolls house business, for which 12" is ideal and to set up and do specials, allowing for the potential reject rate and the various stocks required, could be prohibitively expensive for the customer.
Sorry
Tony
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I want to get my motor mount inline with the prop shaft and fitted into the hull before I add the plywood side skins, but my order for a solid coupling is taking some time to arrive as I understand that all of the prop shafts and couplings from modelboatbits are "made to order" by Steve.
As I was cleaning up in the garage this afternoon (only slightly - I can hardly move in my garage until I get rid of my milling machine!) I stumbled across a piece of alloy bar that was almost the same diameter as a Powerflex coupling, so I chopped it to length, faced the ends and drilled a 5mm hole in each end (to the same depth as the Powerflex coupling) to make a quick "alignment shaft".
I was going to cross drill the holes and tap them to take a couple of 3mm grub screws - but I couldn't find any grubs screws laying around (of any usable size), so I will just use this alignment shaft as a "push-fit" so I can get on and make a plywood bed on which to fix a water-cooled motor mount.
At this stage, I am not sure if I will try to run this Swordsman with water-cooling (for the speed controller and motor mount) or not, but the motor mounts that I use are quite inexpensive and I fit them into all of my hulls as it makes it so easy to remove, share, or change the motors - so the "water-cooled" motor mount will be fitted whether the boat ends up running "dry" or water-cooled.
Now I need to have a "dig" in my workshop (shed) to see if I can find a suitable plywood off-cut to make a suitable bed to fix the motor mount onto.
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Water cooling equals inefficient power train in my view. You need the amps going into propelling the boat rather than providing central heating.
Colin
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Waste not....Yorkshire templates!
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Regarding the long lengths of triangular section.....
Was it on Mayhem where someone created a jig to hold a dremel type tool to mill square section into triangular?
It was along the lines of a mini-planing machine.....
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Water cooling equals inefficient power train in my view. You need the amps going into propelling the boat rather than providing central heating.
Colin
That's an interesting thought Colin - and something I want to put to the test for my own reference .
There seems to be quite a divided opinion as to what works best regarding water-cooling (or not) and since it is not possible to compare "eggs with eggs" under "normal" circumstances my standard method of mounting all of my out-runners (and in-runners) on the same alloy mounts makes it possible for me to rapidly swap motors and ESC to get a direct comparison between running any motor with and without water cooling in any of my hulls.
I also fit 6.0mm gold connectors between all of the motors and speed controllers so again everything is quickly and easily swapped.
Personally I use water cooling mainly because I previously run .40 -.90 nitro engines and 26cc -50cc two stroke motors that needed water cooling to give heir best performance without over-heating, so to me it looks "right" but I have no fixed opinion about what actually works the best with electric motors - because I don't know enough about it and I have never taken the time to put it to the test.
I have several motors that are suitable for powering a 1/12 scale Swordsman at a brisk pace and I also have fan cooled car ESC that I can run dry too. If I can get the various motors to run without water-cooling then I would also gain a reverse function that none of my water-cooled ESC can offer.
The test is only for my own piece of mind. If the motors run at their best efficiency using either dry or water-cooled running I will be happy.
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Regarding the long lengths of triangular section.....
Was it on Mayhem where someone created a jig to hold a dremel type tool to mill square section into triangular?
It was along the lines of a mini-planing machine.....
It would be good to see some pictures of a set-up like that as it could be very interesting.
I have also thought about setting my bandsaw up to slice triangular section off of a suitable thickness plank.
My guess is that it will be quite fiddly to cut your own triangular section wood to such a small scale, whereas the machinery used to slice the small section square and oblong sections they already make would make mincemeat of the job!
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There is the option to stick the mouldings on in square section and then sand the corners off afterwards. A bit of a crude solution but it does work and can be quite neat.
Colin
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It would be good to see some pictures of a set-up like that as it could be very interesting.
I have also thought about setting my bandsaw up to slice triangular section off of a suitable thickness plank.
My guess is that it will be quite fiddly to cut your own triangular section wood to such a small scale, whereas the machinery used to slice the small section square and oblong sections they already make would make mincemeat of the job!
Bob
See UKMike's Fairey Huntsman Aft Cabin Becomes a Sports Fisherman in this section.
Chris
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Here's the 4mm 60 deg triangular styrene that I'm going to use subject to a gluing test onto Eze-Kote. I've also got some 3mm for my smaller hulls. Benefits are it's accuracy and flexibility.
Chris
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Bob
See UKMike's Fairey Huntsman Aft Cabin Becomes a Sports Fisherman in this section.
Chris
Thanks Chris,
I have checked UKMikes thread now and various methods of producing triangular section strakes has been quite well covered.
It is interesting that Mike used his bandsaw to produce his triangular section wood - but he made his by cutting down the 5mm square section that came in his kit.
I have a super little Axminster bandsaw that I am going to sell (I had a larger one for my 70th birthday last year and I need the space), but just before I received my new saw I had bought some new 24tpi blades for the Axminster (and these are still in their packets) so I will get it back on the bench and fit a new 24tpi blade and have a go at producing some strakes from 5mm square.
This will be good to try as I really like using my smaller bandsaw and this will be a great excuse to give it anther run before selling it.
Bob.
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Hi Bob
Don't forget that Mikes is 1:8 though so 5mm might look a bit big? Also the problem for me is that those on the Swordsman reduce in size and shape as they approach the bow and so the size at the stern on a model will look too big near the bow. Hence why I've gone for what I have as the smaller section will look better where it is more visible. Photo attached showing front, it's difficult to find a decent shot of the stern showing the strakes (usually one each side due to staggered pattern with shorter ones) but they are basically a right-angle triangle. Just my take on it!
Chris
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Thanks Chris,
I lifted my little 10" Axminster Hobby bandsaw back up onto a bench this afternoon and fitted a new 3/8" 24tpi blade.
The table will crank over to 50 degrees so I set it at 45 to start my experiment with and fitted the guide on the opposite side to normal so the 5mm square wood that I was going to cut was able to rest on the underside.
I pushed a short 12" length through the saw using my fingers to keep the wood against the guide and the blade, and the result was perfect - I was surprised at just how good it was, however, I would not be so keen to keep my fingers so close to the blade as I try to control a full 36" length.
I did test this and spoilt one length of wood as I didn't have enough control to stop the wood wiggling about before it entered the machine as my fingers needed to be close to the blade to keep the wood in place against the blade and the guide.
Now I know that the machine is capable of making such a perfect job of making triangular strip hardwood I will see what I can come up with to control the longer 36" lengths of wood.
Regarding the size of triangular strip. I moved the guide slightly and it was just as easy to cut smaller triangular strip from the 5mm doner strip, but I wouldn't want to start with smaller square section wood as the size of the square section wood is supportive enough to hold it square against the guide.
Regarding taper cutting. Once I can find a way of feeding the doner section wood into the bandsaw successfully under control, it should be possible to adopt a feed guide to give a taper cut that could be adjusted to start at the widest width that you need and to make a progressive taper down to the narrowest size that you need at the bows within a given length.
It would take quite a few attempts to get the right set-up, so quite a bit of wood could be wasted, but it would not be impossible if it was really thought necessary to produce a tapered section.
I never really used this little bandsaw much as I always used a bigger one (the one that my new saw has replaced) as I never had enough bench space for them both - so I just used the bigger one for everything.
I am really surprised at just how smooth and quiet this little saw runs. Short of building a small extension to my workshop (shed) I don't think I can find a home for it - but I will be really sad to see it go as the fine blade also makes cutting curves easy too!
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My third attempt at developing a working jig to clamp onto the bandsaw to produce accurate triangular stripping worked! My first two efforts only had limited success that did work, but not with 100% repeatability.
I had wasted 3 lengths of 5mm square obechi before I realised that it was just as important to hold the wood after the blade as it was to hold it as it was being presented to the blade for cutting.
Without holding the wood in place immediately after the blade had cut it, the cut would run out of control and good well shaped cuts were impossible to repeat.
Once I realise what was happening and made a jig to hold the wood both before and after the blade it worked a treat and I was able to cut 10 strips of 5mm square obechi with a 45 degree cut to give two equal halves with no failures.
With an accurate working jig I was able to make a 45 agree cut that divided the square strip exactly in half, so there was no waste wood as both halves could be used for strakes.
I am pleased that I have found a way of making accurate triangular stripping, and think the method could be adapted to make any size - but I would not want to do it too often as it takes time that could be used working on my Swordsman !
If I could buy triangular stripping "ready made" I wouldn't bother making it.
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Practice makes perfect!
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Thanks Tony,
The first picture shows a very simple feed guide that allowed me to push the wood through towards the blade, but I still needed to use my fingers between this basic guide and the blade to hold the wood against the blade to stop it wandering - and the method of clamping it was not too clever either so I made a revised version that I could clamp more easily against the saw guide. (picture 2).
Both clamps still needed the fingers on my left hand to be between the cutting edge of the blade and the inside edge of the basic guide (in what is quite a small space) to guide the wood into the blade, and as I discovered subsequently, I also needed to use the fingers on my right hand to stop the wood straying away from the saw guide after it had been cut, as when this happened the blade would "dig-in" and cut away from the saw guide.
I added a second guide to the "jig" (picture 3) to work after the blade so I had a feed before the blade and after the blade.
This was much better and no longer needed me to place my fingers close to the blade, but making the jigs too "accurately" did not work either as the accuracy of the 5mm square wood that I was cutting (whilst perfectly good enough for its intended purpose) varied in its size, not only between different lengths but also along its own length.
By "easing" the size of the guide cut-outs slightly and using my left hand fingers before the guide and my right hand fingers after the guide to "feel" what was going on it magically proved to work and accommodate any of the variances that passed through the "jig".
My "Heath Robinson" lash-up "jig" was roughly knocked-up by trial and error and made from scrap and super-glue (!) but it works a treat and it would be easy to make a another that was better made and looked better - but this "jig" works, and if I ever need to make any more triangular strip I make a new jig that was put together "properly"!
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Fettled feed guide.
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This jig only needs to placed centrally onto the saw table (to straddle the machine head) after the guide has been placed on the reverse side (to normal use), and after the table has been tilted to 45 degrees.
It would be easy to make a jig like this to accommodate almost any sizes of timber that we are likely to use on our model boats , and to tilt the table to a different angle as required.
I found it easiest to use with a small clamp to hold the jig against the table guide leaving my fingers free to "feel" for the small imperfections in size of the wood being fed into it. Maintaining this slight "feel" pressure on the wood both before it enters the entry guide (left hand fingers) and after it leaves the exit guide (right hand fingers) to be the secret to success and to avoid spoiling any wood.
Once I got the "feel" for it and the table and jig were correctly set-up, I was able to strip 10 consecutive 36" lengths into equal sized triangular strips making it possible to use both sides of the square section wood, so the only waste was the wood lost by the blade thickness during the cutting.
If the table and guide are not set up perfectly to 45 degrees then it will not be possible to bisect the square strip centrally, and if this is the case then it will not be possible to use both sides of the cut wood. This will also be the case if any angle other than 45 degrees cut angle is chosen when using square section wood to make triangular strakes.
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After I had finished working out how to make some jigs to enable me to cut triangular stripping on my small band saw, I can now get back to working on my two Swordsman builds.
A new 11" long M5 prop shaft for the Aerokits Swordsman arrived from Steve at modelboatbits this morning (together with a 5mm - 5mm alignment shaft and a similar sized Powerflex coupling) so I hope to make some more progress on both Swordsman models this week.
I have cut the side skins for the one that I am making from the eBay purchased plans and in-between making the jigs I also epoxied the motor plate into place so I can now get these side skins fitted.
A copy of the motor mounting plate (and the braces to fix them in place) were cut at the same time as the first ones, so they are ready to put into the "kit made" Swordsman once the prop shaft has been fitted and the alignment can be checked so any small differences between the two hulls can be allowed for.
My target is to have both hulls fully skinned by the end of this week, and if time permits, it would be nice to have the motor mounting plate bonded into the "kit made" Swordsman as well.
Having spent so long making triangular stripping I will use some of it on my plan built hull, but as the original 1960's Aerokits kit included some "rare" (these days) small section triangular strip I will definitely fit them "as per plan" (5 lengths per side !) to the kit built hull. I will be only fitting 3 lengths of my own stripping to the plan built hull.
Looking ahead, it will be interesting so see if either of these differences in the number and size of strakes fitted on these two hulls makes any difference at all to the actual "in-water" performance!
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Motor plates/mounts and side skin step in practice.
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I have now trimmed back the side skins and made some deck templates from old cereal packets, cut the deck skins from 1.5mm ply and fitted them.
As I trim back the deck skins I am tempted to fit the chine strips and deck edge strips along with the strakes, but if I decide to cover the hull with cloth I need to wait and fit them afterwards as the cloth will not conform around these shapes.
I am a little 'torn" about this as although I would like to try cloth covering the hull (this would be my first time ever) I think about all the boats that I made and raced in the 1960s, and none of them were cloth covered (I am not sure if we had anything like this back then) and none ever failed due to not being covered with cloth - but they probably needed as much time priming and undercoating the wood to make them ready for painting as it would take to cloth cover them.
If I fit these strips and strakes to the bare wood I can glue them on now and use PVA/Aliphatic to fit them and finish the hull conventionally.
By way of contrast I have no doubts about covering the inside of the hull - something I always did with my "new build" power boats ever since I started making them in the 1960's, but back then this was done with glass fibre resin and either chopped matting or glass cloth. This was done partly to strengthen the hulls and to fuel proof the wood as we all used either nitro or petrol powered engines back then!
Now I will try to cover the inside of the hull with cloth to strengthen it (especially around the motor mounts) and to give it a nice finish before painting it, but the outside may not get done...........
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Hi Bob
You don't really need to use cloth on ply as it is strong enough. I tend to use it to tie the ply and balsa blocks together and provide a uniform surface, but as you have not used balsa, you don't need to do this.
Not exactly a mistake, but I fitted the decks after clothing the hull and with Eze-Kote it's very easy to sand through and damage the cloth when sanding the edges of the deck.
Chris
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I have the decks trimmed back now Chris, so after a little more sanding and a small dab of P38 I have to decide whether to add some cloth covering or not.
If I do go down the covering route I am tempted to use the solvent based resin rather than the water based type.
Maybe I should do the inside first and take a little longer considering the advantages or covering or not covering the outside of the hull?
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Decks in place.
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Hi Bob
Taking shape nicely.
As I said you don't really need the cloth for added strength but you can still use the resin as a good basis for painting and you can go over the chine rails and strakes as well.
Chris
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Thanks Chris,
I had my first go at using epoxy finishing resin and cloth last night (in the engine bay) and I found the cloth to be quite reluctant to conform to the complex shapes as I tried to cover and wrap the motor mount.
Getting the trapped air out from under the cloth was not easy as the edges began to fray and then the loose frayed strands stuck to the brush as I tried to wipe or stipple the bubbles out - and this in turn pulled on the cloth that was sat down nicely and lifted it again!
Using a hard "wiper"only worked better on the small flat area but was no better at trying to persuade the cloth to "wrap" around any sharp edge.
When using glass fibre the secret is to keep it wet and stipple away and everything works out nicely - but the epoxy is very sticky so wiping it off the surface is the prescribed method as wetting it does nothing to help.
I can imagine that applying the cloth to the outside of a hull or deck where there are no complex shapes to negotiate could be comparatively simple (not without its challenges I'm sure) but trying to cover complex shapes is not so easy......and I now understand better why it is not possible to fix the strakes, deck edging and chine strips first if the plan is to cloth cover the hull!
I have not dared to go out into the workshop yet to see how my pathetic attempt at covering the motor mount has dried, but I am expecting it will need some "remedial work" later today to clean it up.
Stay safe,
Bob.
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Did you use any Spray-Mount! (Other sticky sprays are available!) >:-o
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Did you use any Spray-Mount! (Other sticky sprays are available!) >:-o
Nah - I don't have any spray adhesive.
Presumably the technique is to coat the hull part to be covered with a spray adhesive and then lay the cloth on to locate it ?
I have some questions about this: -
1. does the spray mount allow for a little movement before setting to allow any small wrinkles etc to be pulled-out so the cloth can be pushed and held in the correct place so that when the epoxy is brushed on afterwards it does not move around?
2. does the spray adhesive reduce the bond strength between the resin and the wood?
3. Is the spray mount just used as a "dab" here and there, or is it a total coating to laminate the cloth onto the wood before the final epoxy coat?
Whilst I am "on a roll" with the questions about fixing cloth coverings with finishing epoxy, I have a couple more - is it possible to clean the brush after use - or does every brush used have to be regarded as "disposable"?
Also - the epoxy is quite thick and sticky - is there a thinner that can be used to thin the epoxy to make it easier to use and penetrate the wood and the cloth better - and if so - is this the same thinner that can be used to clean-up any brushes or spreaders that have been used?
Last question (you are hoping!), I would need to be able to buy any "thinner", cleaner, and spray mount "online" and have it delivered - any ideas on what to buy and where to buy it from that can also deliver?
Thanks for the time spend answering these questions - I guess other "first time coaters" could also benefit from this shared knowledge too!
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I have used spray mount in the past for wing skinning and it was a light coat to get the surface tacky. You do need care to get the cloth on correctly first time as there was not much movement available to get rid of faults. Nowadays I just lay the cloth on the surface getting it flat then paint on just enough epoxy to wet the surface, carefully brushing it to stop any wrinkles. Some pour an amount of epoxy onto the cloth and use an old credit card to spread it out, again the epoxy is spread out as far as possible to give wet surface, any sections still white need a bit more epoxy added. Some use a toilet roll to mop up excess epoxy, Roll it the right way and the paper is not left on the surface, the wet paper can be removed from the roll leaving a fresh surface behind.
I find that a proper finishing epoxy is thin and spreads easily, not being very sticky as it is not a glue. I use Deluxe Materials Aeropoxy. Epoxy can be thinned with isopropyl alcohol which should evaporate away before the epoxy hardens, make sure it is pure not with water added as rubbing alcohol.. As an alternative meths can be used although it gives a purple tint. A possible solvent is bioethanol fuel sold for burners at places like B&Q. These solvents can also be used to clean brushes after use although I tend to find brushes will still go hard after a few uses.
Jim
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My first attempt at using laminating cloth with epoxy resin on the motor mounting plate in my Swordsman didn't look as bad as I feared it would when it had dried (cured?) - but it is not perfect - just a bit better than I had thought it would be!
I made a similar shaped motor mounting plate to fit into the "kit made" Aerokits Swordsman that I have "taken on" to complete alongside my own hull (based on the same plans). After I had fixed the motor plate in place with 24hr Araldite, I fitted the additional brace in front of the mounting plate to further lock the motor plate in place (belt and braces) so it should "stay put" when in use.
After waiting for the 5mm - 5mm alignment shaft to arrive, I fitted it onto the motor shaft to make sure that the motor plate was aligned correctly before bedding it into the hull, but I noticed that when the motor turned, it had quite a large wobble with it fitted onto its output shaft, so I shoved my home made version onto the motor and it turned with no wobble at all!
This was a bit disappointing - especially when a muppet like myself can rustle-up sometime in his shed that worked much better !
All of my motor plates have one of the water-cooled alloy motor mounts bonded onto it - whether the hull will run with water cooling or not.
By doing this I have made a "universal motor mounting system" for myself so that I can fit any brushless motor (out-runner or in-runner) into any mount in any hull.
These alloy mounts are inexpensive and readily available online from a number of sources and each one comes with a pair of epoxy "side cheeks" that can be fixed into the hull permanently.
With the motor bolted onto the water-cooled alloy mount, it can easily be removed and replaced simply by unscrewing the alloy mount from between these "side cheeks" with the motor still attached to the mount. This makes it easy to swap motors between hulls, and this can be very handy when testing different motors to see what works the best.
I will fit 6mm gold plugs and sockets onto all of my motor wires and matching ESC connecting wires so I have a genuine "plug-in, plug-out" motor mounting system. This will be very useful and save a lot of time as I compare running motors and ESC with and without water cooling.
As I leave the 24hr Araldite to dry on the motor mounts in the Swordsman hull, I will take a look at the Remora that I have been building from a Vic Smeed plan - a project that got “put to one side” when the Humbrol French Blue spray paint supply run out and the colour was dropped from the paint range during the first lock-down. .
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I also had a problem in that the alignment coupling I bought at the same time as the flexible coupling, alloy/rubber type, was tight and the holes weren't drilled deep enough with the result that the prop shaft became wedged in the alignment coupling and I had difficulty getting it out. I couldn't return it as I tried drilling it out some more and got another one. This was a bit better. The prop shaft and motor shafts were a perfect fit in the flexible coupling.
I did manage to align the motor and prop shaft by pushing them part way into the alignment coupling but not ideal. It's annoying and frustrating when you go to the trouble of buying the "correct" tool for the job and it falls short.
It's a pity that my BiL has retired from the engineering company that he worked for as they made aircraft parts!
Chris
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Mounts etc.
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Interesting that you both had issues with the purpose made alignment tool - as did I with one (I wonder if it was the same seller). I actually took a video of the wobble and emailed him and he sent me a new one. This one was better but still had a slight wobble so i decided not to use it. Sadly, I won't use this seller again, a real pity as the products he offers look really good.
On a positive note, I find all the questions/thoughts/feedback about the build really useful as these are challenges I will come across when doing my next build (a Swordsman too). The idea of a generic motor mount is interesting concept - does it have the capability to move forwards and backwards too (just thinking that some motors have their shafts at opposite ends - I think?).
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Interesting that you both had issues with the purpose made alignment tool - as did I with one (I wonder if it was the same seller). I actually took a video of the wobble and emailed him and he sent me a new one. This one was better but still had a slight wobble so i decided not to use it. Sadly, I won't use this seller again, a real pity as the products he offers look really good.
On a positive note, I find all the questions/thoughts/feedback about the build really useful as these are challenges I will come across when doing my next build (a Swordsman too). The idea of a generic motor mount is interesting concept - does it have the capability to move forwards and backwards too (just thinking that some motors have their shafts at opposite ends - I think?).
Nice to know that there could be another Swordsman build starting soon - lets hope its a 1/12 scale as it makes a really nice size boat that can handle most water conditions that you are ever likely to encounter here in the UK - I have even raced mine off-shore in the open sea - and on one occasion in a 6ft swell (!), and the boat still performed well and gave me no trouble at all.
The motor mounts that I use can be bought online from all the usual sellers and it is cheap enough to buy one for each hull.
Each alloy motor mount come with water-cooling, but there is no need to use this feature if you prefer to run a "dry" (non-water cooled system) and a pair of epoxy resin side cheeks . These side cheeks need to be fitted securely into the hull - I choose to mount mine onto a solid motor plate that is permanently fixed into the hull and I used 24 hour Araldite to hold mine in place.
As you can see from the pictures this mount is non adjustable for length positioning, so the way that I have it fixed, it would not be suitable for the type of brushless motor that has its output shaft in the reverse direction to the one shown in the pictures.
I do have motors of this type and I have used one to them in my current Remora build. I have used exactly the same mounts, but as the main body of the out-runner spins in front of the mounting position (rather than behind it) the radio plate is secured into the hull further forwards than it would be for the type of out-runner that is more normally used in model boats.
Late last night I was thinking that when I have no other projects to keep me busy, I may cut this mount out of the Remora and re-fit it in the more usual position so that I can use any of my out-runner motors in any hull (except the "aero" type that I have fitted in it at the moment). When I get around to doing this all of my hulls will be able to accept any of my usual choice of out-runner or in-runner motor.
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I exchanged emails with the seller and to give him credit he did explain his process of drilling and reaming and checking against a standard shaft. Notwithstanding that though I found it too tight - that was for the 4mm end of a 4/5mm coupling and one end of a 4/4mm coupling, so something wasn't right! Manufacturers shafts undoubtedly vary slightly but if he had checked against the Powerflex coupling which he supplied and which fitted a treat it would have been fine. It's a pity that Powerflex don't make the solid coupling as well. Tightness is one thing but a wobble is inexcusable!
What Swordsman are you planning on building mbm?
Chris
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It's the SLEC 1/16 Swordsman - I thought the construction would be similar to my Diva and whilst it is, there are many differences which i hadn't expected (balsa blocks and a cloth hull covering to name just a couple), neither of which i've worked with before.
I haven't started it yet as i keep getting waylaid and once you start it's hard to put it down when other (non boat related) jobs are calling!
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It's the SLEC 1/16 Swordsman - I thought the construction would be similar to my Diva and whilst it is, there are many differences which i hadn't expected (balsa blocks and a cloth hull covering to name just a couple), neither of which i've worked with before.
I haven't started it yet as i keep getting waylaid and once you start it's hard to put it down when other (non boat related) jobs are calling!
The Aerokits plan is the one that I have used in this thread, and it is still available on eBay so you could build a 1/12 scale Swordsman that has no balsa wood blocks to carve in the bows as it has plywood skinning all the way up to the front. The cost to build this bigger model would not be so different to buying the kit - maybe less?
The plan also comes with a set of parts drawings that can be used as long as you fold each bulkhead etc in half to make your own symmetrical template (I use old cereal packets to make my templates from) and check-fit them against the plan rather than use them "as they come" because they are not that accurately drawn - but easily corrected.
Another 1/12 plan for a Swordsman is the P Connolly version and these can be bought from Cornwall Model Boats (and probably other sources too!). The obvious difference between these two is that the Aerokits version has the superstructure integrated into the hull so access us gained via the removable cabin tops, whereas the P.Connoly plan will build a model that has a complete lift-off superstructure that gives incredible access for working inside the hull.
Whilst I am experimenting with cloth covering it is most definitely NOT needed on the all plywood covered hull, although its use may save some time compared to conventionally finishing it with sealer etc in the traditional way.
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If the Swordsman goes well, my intention will be to build the next one from a plan.
I didn't feel confident enough to do it this time and didn't want to ruin the hobby for myself by getting disheartened cos i can't cut straight (or curved)!
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When I decided to make the Swordsman so that I would be able to change quickly from running with a water-cooled motor and ESC to running with a 'dry" (non water-cooled) motor and ESC, I fitted the water cooled alloy motor mounts as they can be used with or without water-cooling and it would be easy to connect/disconnect the water cooling tubes.
I bought a Surpass 120amp car type ESC to run in the Swordsman, and I already have a water-cooled ESC, so this new ESC would give me the chance to run the boat with a "dry" (non water-cooled) as well as my regular water-cooled set-up.
When the Surpass ESC arrived it looked like a nice chunky bit of kit, and as I was intending to run a Surpass motor (to start with at least) I thought that I would connect the two together just to make sure they both worked OK.
The motor came fitted with some smart looking gold plugs and the ESC came fitted with some good looking gold sockets of the same size and an Deans plug on the power lead. Although I personally don't like Deans plugs that much, I do have some LiPos that came with them fitted, so I pulled off the XT90 converter plugs that I usually run on this LiPo and connected everything together to test it with radio and steering service fitted.
The first thing I noticed was that the 4mm Surpass plugs do not fit the 4mm Surpass sockets very well (understatement), in fact they were so loose that they just fell out under their own weight!
I held the plugs and sockets together with masking tape just while I checked to see if everything was working OK, and the Surpass motor and ESC were both working well..
My plan has aways been to fit 6mm gold plugs and sockets to all my motors and ESC so it would be easy to exchange different motors and ESC in any hull, and with the water-cooled alloy motor mounts allowing the motors to be swapped so easily it would make testing any combination fairly hassle free.
The nice looking (but poor fitting) Surpass gold plugs encouraged me to get the soldering iron out this afternoon and to make a start on changing my motors and ESC to run with 6mm gold plugs and sockets. (some that I have been running for the last few years already had them!)
The Surpass motor plugs fitted nicely into the solder-cup of the 6mm gold plugs (!) so I just tinned them and soldered them into the sockets rather than cut them off (they don't fit anything else that I have anyway!). This looked like a nice neat solution, but I will keep a watchful eye on them and if there are any problems I will just chop them off and re-solder the joint directly with the motor wires as normal.
Now I have a small "fleet" of motors and ESC that all fit each other, and I can fit any motor into any hull due to the "universal" alloy motor mounts.
This will enable me to test the "real life" performance of any motor when it is water-cooled or run "dry" (no water-cooling). I can also run water-cooled ESC too as the water pick-ups will be fitted in every hull.
I will be able to connect the water cooling hose to either the motor and/or a suitable ESC - or just directly to the water outlet and by-pass the motor and/or the ESC to run a totally "dry" power system.
This should finally prove if brushless motors run better when water-cooled or when run dry in my hulls. I can check the performance and the run times as well as checking to see how hot the motor and the ESC are after each run.
I enjoy experimenting and I am aware of the reasons given "against" using water-cooling as well as those "for" using water-cooling , so at least in my own hulls I will know for sure what works best for me.
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To illustrate the previous post....
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When changing and/or fitting the 6mm gold plugs and sockets to my motors and ESC's I ordered some heat shrink tubing off of eBay.
Over the last 50 or more years I have bought my heat shrink tubing from a variety of sources, but mostly from model shops as I don't use that much of it in an average year, but this supplier had different colours that would be ideal for use on the three wires that run between a brushless motor and an ESC - so I bought some.
I knew that I needed heat shrink that was 12mm wide to be able to insert my 6mm plugs and sockets and for it to shrink down tightly afterwards as this was the size that I have used for many years for this job.
Imagine my surprise when my new supply of heat shrink arrived with each colour having a sticker to identify it as being 12mm wide - but it looked much bigger!
When I measured it the width was actually 20mm (actually more - almost 21mm wide!). Slightly disappointing I suppose as the job was delayed, but no problem - it must just be a packing error so I will get it changed.
This was not as easy as it should have been !
The seller accused me of "just seeking attention" and he claimed that they never made any heat shrink tubing that was 20mm wide - so I sent him a nice clear picture of his tubing held against a clearly printed ruler - and he then said I was measuring it wrongly as width means diameter "as I well know"...... he said!
To put this to the test I took his "advice" and ordered some "8mm heat shrink tubing" from him and when it arrived it actually measures 15mm - closer - but still not 12mm, but I will try it and if it works thats fine with me.
As the written English the seller used was not prefect, I thought this may have just been an over-seas based supplier who measured their heat shrink in a different way but he advised me that he was in London - and asked me what country I came from!
To cut a long story short the response I received was rude and aggressive - and I have still failed to find a way of buying the size that I wanted to buy - and I would have to pay to return the first "12mm" batch that I bought because ... I ordered it wrong.
Based purely on my own recent experience, I would suggest that if you do decide to buy some coloured heat shrink from eBay it would be wise to ask the supplier to measure the width of the heat shrink that you would like to buy first as it could save many days of frustration and avoid being insulted by an aggressive seller who claims to be "from London".
I would stress the "to cut a long story short" bit of this story as this is a shortened summary of a fiasco that has still not been resolved!
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That's frustrating to say the least.
The seller says they are London based, but probably abroad and just a P.O box address in the UK so they can say UK seller.
ETA sometimes gives a clue if from abroad or not, but not always.
Fingers crossed the "8mm" does the job for you.
Will
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To be fair Bob it is usually advertised by diameter which is how you measure the cable even if it is supplied flat which will be a bigger measurement. Have you bought by width in the past then? Usually heat shrink for small diameters is tubular and for larger ones is flat.
Chris
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Hi, the spacing of your paragraphs in your posts suggests pictures inbetween -am I not getting them? It's been a problem recently some can see pics hosted here and some can't. Your posts make allot better sense to me if we have some pictures??? Think I'm missing something here each time?
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To be fair Bob it is usually advertised by diameter which is how you measure the cable even if it is supplied flat which will be a bigger measurement. Have you bought by width in the past then? Usually heat shrink for small diameters is tubular and for larger ones is flat.
Chris
Hi Chris.
I still have the header cards from previous heat shrink purchases over the years and the width of the flat tubing is the size that is printed on the header cards, so basically if it says it is 10mm wide - then it will measure 10mm wide.
My local model shop has plenty in stock (sadly only in black and red) and the header cards state the width of the flat heat shrink tube and this has never changed over the last 30+ years that they have been selling it from various suppliers.
It is looking like heat shrink tubing is measured and sold in two distinctly different ways - but until I bought this last coloured batch I had never encountered this "alternative" way of measuring it.
A more helpful supplier could have explained this simply and politely - perhaps even offering some sort of conversion chart on their advertisement to show how wide the heat shrink tubing would actually be if it was sold by diameter.
I ordered 12mm flat heat shrink tubing - and it measures over 20mm wide.
I ordered 8mm flat heat shrink tubing - and it measures 15mm wide.
I suppose the above could be the start of some sort of comparison chart - but only if the seller identified the measurement system he was using when selling it.
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Hi Bob
First time I've ever bought any (suprisingly) was recently from Component Shop and they and Cornwall Model Boats only give the diameter which I suppose makes more sense for most uses. I must admit I thought 12mm was a bit big when you told me to use it for the 6mm connectors! Now I know why.
No excuse for being rude though because he didn't know it can also be specified by width from some suppliers.
Chris
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Hi Bob
First time I've ever bought any (suprisingly) was recently from Component Shop and they and Cornwall Model Boats only give the diameter which I suppose makes more sense for most uses. I must admit I thought 12mm was a bit big when you told me to use it for the 6mm connectors! Now I know why.
No excuse for being rude though because he didn't know it can also be specified by width from some suppliers.
Chris
Thats what it is all about.
I don't suppose I care how the flat heat shrink tubing is measured so long as I can buy something that does the job for me and I know how to order the correct size.
Being polite costs nothing and helping customers is "key" to future business growth.
Changing the subject slightly - but still concerning heat shrinking - I have just bought myself a new tool for shrinking heat shrink tubing. Running the heat shrink through a flame from a lighter, or rubbing it on the back of the soldering iron both work well enough (and are the two methods that I currently use!), but some years ago a friend of mine gave me an electric "heat shrink gun"and that worked really well and never burnt the tubing as long as the gun was kept moving.
It looked like a hair dryer but run a lot hotter and had a curved metal lip on the end of the spout to hold the heat shrink. This was clean and worked really well, but after many years of good service it finally failed and I have been unable to find anything like it.
What I have bought now is much smaller and works on butane gas. I am looking forward to testing it tonight with this new coloured flat heat shrink tube to see how they both perform!
If all goes well I will have different coloured heat shrink sleeving on all of my brushless motor and ESC wires that I think will look quite smart. This is probably totally unnecessary as I have always got by with plain old black and red until now, but seeing some of the new brushless motors and ESC now come with different coloured heat shrink on each of the three wires seemed like a good idea so I thought I would go the same way!
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Hi Bob
As well as trying the soldering iron I was going to try my old Black & Decker heat gun/paint stripper. It's got a number of different nozzles, most of which I've never used. I seem to remember one of those has a lip, must dig it out of the garage and have a look.
Be interested to see how your new one performs.
Chris
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Tonight I went back to the Swordsman construction and made a start on the cabin tops.
The formers for the removable part of the front cabin roof and the rear fixed part of the cabin roof that will eventually have the large curved windscreen mounted on top of it have been cut from 4mm birch ply.
I need to make some more templates from the plan for the two base parts for the main cabin tops (removable front part and fixed rear part) and then I can glue the formers onto them and cut some plywood skins for the tops.
It is nice to cut some wood again and return to making some more progress on the Swordsman.
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I've decided that my heatgun is too big and powerful really so have ordered a smaller Proxxon. Any excuse for a new tool!
I shall be joining you in doing a bit of wood cutting again soon.
Chris
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I've decided that my heatgun is too big and powerful really so have ordered a smaller Proxxon. Any excuse for a new tool!
I shall be joining you in doing a bit of wood cutting again soon.
Chris
I chose the little IRODA MJ-950 Portable Heat Shrink Gun - very small and works on butane gas.
At first I didn't think it was working very well as I tested it on the coloured heat shrink tubing I bought off eBay, but when I switched back to any other type of heat shrink tubing that I already had it worked well enough!
The coloured heat shrink from eBay is thin and feels very "plasticky" - I know that sounds a bit daft - but the others are thicker and feel almost "rubbery" in comparison so my opinion is that the coloured heat shrink tubing that bought from eBay is not worth bothering with.
....but the little heat shrink gun works well!
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Last night I cut the base for the main cabin roof and the formers to shape the double curvature that this roof has.
I fitted the large end former (C2) the wide central "spine" (C6) and the two mid half formers (C4 x2) and nailed the base down onto the bench to stop it twisting as the PVA glue dries - and also planted three tins of paint on top as well to hold the formers in place!
Tonight I will withdraw the nails to check and see exactly how the front door former (C3) actually fits. Although the plan is not very clear about this, I think it needs to be glued at the same angle as the front screen so that when the roof it fitted it will lay flat against the back of the front windscreen - so I would need to allow for the thickness of some window glazing - BUT - fitting it these way would show the base of the roof through the front windscreen.
Maybe I can set it back so it bridges across the two front corners of the front windscreen as this would give me some space to hollow-out the front edge of the base where it is visible through the "front window" to try and hide this a little?
I honesty can't remember how I fitted this part when I was able to build my first Swordsman from an Aerokits kit - but that was back in 1966-67 and although I still have perfect recall - my memory prevents me from making good use of it :((
Whichever way I decide to go, when I fix this front roof former (C3) onto the roof base I will nail the base back down onto bench again and shape some wood to make the two cabin roof sides (shown on the plan as parts C5).
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Roof stuff...
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Coming along there Bob :-))
I have the cabin roof to make for my Veron H28, (like so many jobs) at some point :embarrassed:
Keep up the good work.
Will
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Thanks Will,
Last night I fitted the C3 front roof former and made and fitted the C5 cabin roof sides and nailed the assembly back down onto the bench.
I noticed that the 4mm plywood base was lifting slightly on the corners - always a potential problem with a lift-off cabin roof assembly when trying to keep it flat as the adhesive drys
After adding some more nails to hold everything absolutely flat (again), I made and fitted some internal diagonal "anti-warp" struts that I hope will stop any twisting before the roof skins are fitted.
Tonight I cut and fitted the left and right cabin roof skins after pulling the nails out of the roof base and I was pleased to see that it had all dried nice and flat with no twist - not bad as it is almost impossible to buy plywood that arrives nice and flat with no twist, so the nailing the base to a flat bench surface and adding the "anti-warp"struts worked - now I just have to hope that by fitting the two halves of the roof skins at the same time it will stay flat and not dry with any twist.
The main cabin roof skins are needed to be fitted in two halves due to the double curvature of the roof - something that a one piece skin could not do as it would not be able to conform to the complete 3D shape.
Even the two half-skins were under some strain to conform to the curvature and I was surprised at how many clamps and brass nails were needed to hold them down to the formers - so I am a little concerned that as the PVA drys it try to twist the roof base back out of shape again!
Sadly, there is no practical way to nail this final assembly back down to the bench again, so I am hoping that the glues drys-out evenly and that the "anti-warp" struts can hold everything in place.
If this assembly dries OK and stays flat I then need to make sure it can be blended into the narrow fixed cabin top that will also form the base for the wrap-around windscreen. I have not fitted the ply skin to this section so I can adjust the front and rear formers to align with the lift-off cabin top assembly.
Bob.
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Nice one Bob.
I have all of this to learn and look forward(?) to yet.
The 34" H31 I recently won will definitely need a whole new cabin being made, ooh, I can't wait {:-{
You do realise, that I'm going to be badgering both You and Chris for much guidance in the future :embarrassed:
Will
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Electrical or masking tape can be a good way of holding components together while glue dries.
Colin
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Electrical or masking tape can be a good way of holding components together while glue dries.
Colin
Thanks Colin,
I did try electrical tape, gaffer tape, masking tape, and various elastic bands etc as I would have preferred not to use so many (any!) brass nails, but the double curvature of each side of the cabin top skins always left one area lifting away.
It was not possible to keep all of the edges hard against all of the formers at the same time.
My last resort was the nails, and plastic clamps, but I have only driven the nails in part-way so when I get out to my workshop later today I have the choice of cutting the heads off and driving the shafts in, or pulling them out after I have removed the clamps.
I will probably leave some of the brass shafts in strategic places and remove most of them and fill the holes they will leave!
Thanks for your help - I know your idea usually works well - but the combination of a double curvature and 1.5mm ply beat us on this occasion.
Bob.
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Last night I removed the plastic clamps and placed the cabin top assembly onto the bench to see if it had warped - fortunately all is well as the cabin top base was flat and wobble free, so some of the brass nails were removed, and others had their heads clipped-off and were tapped down flush to act are permanent fixtures.
The top skins were trimmed back and the small (fixed) remaining part of the cabin top was checked for alignment with the removable cabin top and glued down. Again I noticed that the 1.5mm ply skin needed to be held into place with some more brass nails and was left this way over-night to dry.
The grain of the 1.5mm cabin top skins were all cut to give the easiest "wrap" but the curvatures of the roof still needed some mechanical fixings to hold them in place.
The small fixed part of the Swordsman top is also where the main screen will sit, so it will have a curved 1.5mm overlay fixed to it after it has been shaped to fit the curvature of the screen.
I am now looking for some pictures of a Swordsman with clear views of the rear cabin variant. If I can see enough I will make this variant so it will look just a little different to a standard kit built Swordsman.
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Glad you got the roof sorted. Looks like your method was effective.
There are some good photos of an aft cabin version here:
http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/yacht/166/fairey-swordsman-33-aft-cabin-1970
I found them useful for adding detail to my 1:16 scale kit.
Colin
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Thanks Colin,
That is a helpful set of reference pictures.
I think the curvature of the cabin sides (I took mine from the Aerokits plans) shows the top line in the area where the rear cabin top will be is curved, so if my rear cabin is to have its roof more or less parallel to the sides I will need to curve the roof from front to back to match it - as well as from side to side.
This will be another "double curvature" roof for me to form - I was hoping that the roof would be more or less a straight line from front to back, with only the "left to right" cabin top curvature to contend with.
I suppose this must be right (unless the Aerokits side profile is wrong?), so I will start to make some formers to fit inside the cab sides to run more or less in line with the sides and raise the top of the rear cockpit bulkhead up high enough to suite.
Does the rear cab roof on your Swordsman have this same double curvature?
Bob.
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There is some double curvature but not very much fore and aft on the 1:16 kit which has been simplified to some extent. The aft cabin roof is Liteply with a printed plywood overlay. I didn't have any problems with it. I did add some mahogany trim to make things look a bit smarter as below.
Colin
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More roof stuff.....
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Nothing like a bit of brute force to persuade the wood to stay in position! :-))
Colin
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Nothing like a bit of brute force to persuade the wood to stay in position! :-))
Colin
Ha - I doubt that my Swordsman will look anything like as well finished and detailed as yours is, as I am keen to get it on the water sooner rather than later!
Making a windscreen is my next cause for concern (while I hide away from tackling it by chopping out some more wood!). I am not sure what to use as a frame for the screen - or how to fix it onto the clear plastic - and without spreading glue all over the clear bits!
As as for the planking - well thats another story...................I am told that the racing Fairey craft were "painted" - now if that also included the decks..................... 8)
Bob.
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Yes, you can paint the decks, grey to simulate painted canvas for example.
I found the best way to simulate the windscreen was to use Trimline white tape on the clear plastic.The kit manufacturer recommended just painting the frame on which works OK at 1:16 scale. OK it's not a real frame but it is neat without any messy glue residue which is what counts.
Colin
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Hi Bob
The coamings are curved and where the roof meets is almost a straight line. I shall probably follow the line of the coamings though as I'm planking and think it looks better. Note also that the rear of the coamings and upstand is quite low.
Surprisingly they did race Swordsman and some had painted decks so you are in order!
I'm working on the superstructure drawings for the Huntsman at the moment before looking at the Swordsman again.
Chris
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Hi Bob
The coamings are curved and where the roof meets is almost a straight line. I shall probably follow the line of the coamings though as I'm planking and think it looks better. Note also that the rear of the coamings and upstand is quite low.
Surprisingly they did race Swordsman and some had painted decks so you are in order!
I'm working on the superstructure drawings for the Huntsman at the moment before looking at the Swordsman again.
Chris
I think I will make the roof line follow the shape of the super-structure sides Chris - it will make another nice double curvature roof to cover.
Planking this roof would be a nice way of doing it, so once the combings are cut and the curved side formers are fixed to the cab sides I will have a better idea about the best method to for me to use on this model.
The front cabin roof actually followed the double curvature OK using separate left and right 1.5mm skins - but the base needed to be "encouraged" not to warp or twist and it needed a few brass nails to keep in on the frames until the PVA had set.
After a few days I expect the shape of the 1.5mm roof skins will have been well and truly "set" as I have found that this thin ply is always keen enough to bend if it is not stored dead flat and under some weight.
Any sheets of 1.5 plywood that I have "in stock" are stored at the bottom of the pile of plywood sheets with the top layer always being the thickest, but "modern plywood" is seldom flat and twist free when it is bought new, so I usually find that some additional weight is needed on top of the pile to help press everything flat and the longer it stays flat under weight the more chance it has of being flat and twist free when I actually come to use it!
If you are working on the 34" Huntsman 31 superstructure drawings that can only be a good thing! It is a nice size model (although not 1/12 scale!) but the superstructure just looks "wrong". The front cab window is too tall and "pointy" and so the domed shape continues along the roof-line.
The full size Huntsman 31 has nice styling and looks good, and with a revised superstructure that looks more realistic it will make a really nice model.
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Hi Bob
Planking the rear cabin roof should be relatively straightforward as the planks are straight though the double curvature will probably require some shaping to be done. I shall be using thicker planking than the 0.5mm I used for the deck.
I'm using the 34" drawings as a guide for my 1:12 Huntsman drawings but am keeping the curve to the top of the windows as flat as possible. I'm using strip wood for the roof so it will be a nice smooth curve as per my previous builds. I've had to increase the height of the sides slightly though as mine is a lift off superstructure and I need a bit of meat below the windows.
Talking of drawings I did post yours 1st Class on Monday but obviously due to postal delays they are taking longer.
Chris
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Hi Bob
Planking the rear cabin roof should be relatively straightforward as the planks are straight though the double curvature will probably require some shaping to be done. I shall be using thicker planking than the 0.5mm I used for the deck.
I'm using the 34" drawings as a guide for my 1:12 Huntsman drawings and am keeping the curve to the top of the windows as flat as possible. I'm using strip wood for the roof so it will be a nice smooth curve as per my previous builds. I've had to increase the height of the sides slightly though as mine is a lift off superstructure and I need a bit of meat below the windows.
Talking of drawings I did post yours 1st Class on Monday but obviously due to postal delays they are taking longer.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Let's hope my "skinned" Swordsman rooftops look as smooth as your excellent planked ones - they are looking OK "in the rough" but I guess it will be easier to make a better judgement when they are finished.
I may well end-up planking the rear cabin roof on my Swordsman, I will decide when I can see the shape that I have to cover which way to go.
Do you not already have the Nexus plans for the 1/12 scale Huntsman 31? The cab shape on those plans look good - much more convincing than the shape of the 34" Precedent Huntsman 31 - and they are the right scale too!
Thanks for sending a copy of the 34" Modav '31 plans - very much appreciated and I will let you know as soon as they arrive. Work on the 34" Huntsman project is temporarily stopped as I am waiting for some glass fibre tape to use for bonding the spacers and part bulkhead into the g/f hull, so I will study them with interest when they arrive - perfect!
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Hi Bob
I do have the Nexus plans but I didn't use them for my drawings. Mine's a bit of a mongrel now as it started off as a Sport and I based the drawings on various sources. It will look fine though!
The Modav and the Precedent drawings are basically the same. The "dome" above the windows results from using ply for the roof that doesn't like being bent in two directions.
Chris
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Hi Bob
I do have the Nexus plans but I didn't use them for my drawings. Mine's a bit of a mongrel now as it started off as a Sport and I based the drawings on various sources. It will look fine though!
The Modav and the Precedent drawings are basically the same. The "dome" above the windows results from using ply for the roof that doesn't like being bent in two directions.
Chris
Hi Chris,
If they (Modav/Precedent) got the shape of the roofline closer to the full size craft (rather than making it with such a high "non scale" dome shape) it would have been so much easier to cover.
Even with this dome shaped roof, Precedent intended their roof to be plywood covered too - and they included plywood roof skins the kit !
Aerokits had already solved this problem by supplying the plywood roof skins for their Swordsman kit in two halves - and it works! Nice and simple - and with a more scale like roof curvature too!
Bob.
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From original Fairey Marine GA drawing of the full-size. You guys can do the maths for whichever scale you have used, but this is Alan Burnard's own drawing.
Dave M
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Thanks Dave,
That is a very helpful drawing.
It is a shame that just dividing full size measurements down to the scale required does not always produce a convincing looking model - and I will try to explain what I mean.
Many years ago I was working with a German manufacturer who made the best large scale petrol powered off-road model racing cars who wanted to develop a circuit racing car to develop a new model sport.
Based in Stuttgart and having very strong ties with Mercedes the first model chosen to replicate was a Mercedes Evo that was currently racing in the DTM series.
All the supplied measurements were perfect and access to the full size racing car was also available and used - but the perfectly reproduced 1/5 scale replica just looked too thin!
After lots of head scratching a well known die cast model car manufacturer was consulted and they explained that they were well aware of this problem and had used a formula to correct this "fault" for many years and that the model industry in general used this same formulae.
When applied to our prototype Evo car it showed that it should be widened by a certain factor - (lets say "20mm" for arguments sake).
The complete new mould was sliced in half length ways (!) and a "20mm" plate was laminated in-between the two halves and then blended-in.
Once completed the model was vastly improved and looked absolutely perfect and was officially "approved" and put into production.
Subsequent models that followed soon afterwards of all the other DTM cars used this same formulae with complete success and the model sport became world-wide and is still very popular to this day (not too much in the UK these days - sadly).
There was never a problem with the mathematics or the measurements, we just failed to understand how the human brain works and how it "sees" down-scaled models of full size originals that they are familiar with.
This may or may not have anything to do with the "look" of his particular 34" long model of the Huntsman 31, but it is worth being aware that even the best and biggest resources have fallen into the trap of not checking to make sure something "looks right" - no matter what the measurements may suggest!
Bob.
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You're most welcome, Bob, but that's going to spoil the favourite sport of the rivet-counters!
DM
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I checked my drawing against those dimensions and found that I was spot on at the front window which is the most important one as it impacts on the front window and within a mm or so elsewhere so I can live with that.
Interesting what you say about model cars Bob. I think part of it is about viewpoint. We are used to looking at full-sized cars from a 5 to 6 foot eye level whereas with a model you're looking down on it and get a completely different perspective.
Whenever I look down on my cars from an upstairs window they can look a bit long and narrow.
Funnily enough I've looked at my Huntsman 28 a few times and thought it too long, but the length is right. It will look better once the screen and air intakes are on which will give it more height and break up the length of the coamings.
Chris
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You're most welcome, Bob, but that's going to spoil the favourite sport of the rivet-counters!
DM
Hi Dave,
There has never been anything to deter the rivet counters (from counting rivets) but we should always remember that everyone has their own hobbies and rivet counting can become an all absorbing interest in its own right.
As I get older, measurements become less important than enjoying what I make and more importantly enjoying the pleasure of sailing the finished item - but it is nice if it "looks right" too :-))
Stay safe,
Bob.
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I checked my drawing against those dimensions and found that I was spot on at the front window which is the most important one as it impacts on the front window and within a mm or so elsewhere so I can live with that.
Interesting what you say about model cars Bob. I think part of it is about viewpoint. We are used to looking at full-sized cars from a 5 to 6 foot eye level whereas with a model you're looking down on it and get a completely different perspective.
Whenever I look down on my cars from an upstairs window they can look a bit long and narrow.
Funnily enough I've looked at my Huntsman 28 a few times and thought it too long, but the length is right. It will look better once the screen and air intakes are on which will give it more height and break up the length of the coamings.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I don't think the eye sees different types of scaled down models in different ways, although it may be relevant that many of the boats that we model we don't get to see "first hand" or on a daily basis so we are less familiar with the full sized prototype and so the eye does not recognise or see any difference.
That is also OK as it is only what "looks right" to the builder/owner that matters - but recently as we have been able to see more photographs of Fairey models we have noticed some that just don't look as realistic as they should.
The 1/11 scale 34" Huntsman 31 is a model that is drawing some criticism at the moment, whereas the 1/12 scale Swordsman (a model from the 1960's) still looks good enough not to attract such criticism.
I rather suspect that the skill and the "practiced eye" of the kit designer is the real difference between the two models as one looks "right" and the other most definitely does not! Les Rowell and P. Connolly both achieved convincing looking Swordsman models.
At this moment I am trying to shape the rear cabin variant onto my current Swordsman project and like all models this will be a compromise where detailed measurements would be unlikely to help - but some good photographs (and drawings) have been a great help.
You summed it up very well some time back when you compared our model making with building "prototypes". None of them will be built to the ruler when they can look better with a little tweak, and the disparity of materials and thicknesses will alway demand a compromise.
Capturing the look and the character of a prototype is what we try to achieve - and sometimes this is not helped when we have never seen the full sized craft ..............and we may all see the same thing a little differently too!
Enjoy your weekend!
Bob.
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Bob
Trust me, the designer of the Precedent kits is every bit as skilled as the designers of the Swordsman you mention and don't forget that Fairey made their drawings available to them including even going as far as producing hull lines for models, how good is that! So they should all be pretty accurate.
Trouble with the Huntsman is that the superstructure is very narrow, particularly at the front and so any errors in building that cause the front window to be too high or wrongly shaped will have a disproportional affect on how the model looks. The Swordsman on the other hand is much wider with wide front and rear windows and so more tolerant of any inaccuracies.
With the Precedent Huntsman the errors come from the building and or the poor cutting out of the kit parts due, as has been stated before, by the poor quality of ply and worn out tooling, particularly with the later kits, over which the kit designer has no control. Worthwhile pointing out again this has nothing to do with the current SLEC kits which are completely different and use accurately cut parts and quality materials.
If mine doesn't look right I will have no-one to blame but myself as it's scratch built and have modified/produced my own drawings!
Chris
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Bob
Trust me, the designer of the Precedent kits is every bit as skilled as the designers of the Swordsman you mention and don't forget that Fairey made their drawings available to them including even going as far as producing hull lines for models, how good is that! So they should all be pretty accurate.
Trouble with the Huntsman is that the superstructure is very narrow, particularly at the front and so any errors in building that cause the front window to be too high or wrongly shaped will have a disproportional affect on how the model looks. The Swordsman on the other hand is much wider with wide front and rear windows and so more tolerant of any inaccuracies.
With the Precedent Huntsman the errors come from the building and or the poor cutting out of the kit parts due, as has been stated before, by the poor quality of ply and worn out tooling, particularly with the later kits, over which the kit designer has no control. Worthwhile pointing out again this has nothing to do with the current SLEC kits which are completely different and use accurately cut parts and quality materials.
If mine doesn't look right I will have no-one to blame but myself as it's scratch built and have modified/produced my own drawings!
Chris
Hi Chris,
At risk of drifting too far off subject on the Swordsman thread I would just like to answer your comments to clarify anything I have said that may have been misunderstood.
The one model that most criticise for looking poor and unconvincing is the 34" version of the Precedent Huntsman 31 and the superstructure in particular.
I have not heard any bad comments about the hull shape.
I hope to improve my own 34" Precedent Huntsman 31 model by making a fresh superstructure starting with re-shaping the front cabin window so it looks a lot more like the pictures of the real thing that you have been kind enough to share with us.
You directed me toward the 1/12 scale Huntsman 31 plans (that I subsequently bought from Nexus) and I can see that the front cabin window on those plans look a lot more convincing so I will refer to this shape and the photographs as a good base to work from.
Some of the smaller size (34" long) Precedent Huntsman 31 models that I have seen have been beautifully assembled by the kit builder, but the front cabin window shape and the overall height of the superstructure look just as tall as the badly put together examples (like my own!) so I doubt the kit builder has much influence on this superstructure shape if it is put together using the kit parts.
The kit parts in my 34" Precedent 31 kit look like they have been die cut (and fit the original plans quite well) so I don't think the kit maker has done a bad job in cutting the shapes out - but in many cases they could have used better quality wood.
Worn out tooling crushes the wood rather than slicing cleanly through it (I worked with cutting dies for many years) but they cannot change the shape that much. The kit parts actually fit together really well so I would suggest that the tooling for the kit was really good.
I have made no mention of any other kit apart from the Aerokits Swordsman that I believe can be assembled to look very convincing and just as good as models built from the excellent plans drawn by P.Connolly.
The mention of Les Rowell was because he made a good job of making the Aerokits Swordsman kit look as convincing as it does, and it has stood the test of time with very few (if any) criticisms about how convincing it looks as a finished model - and these kits were made in the 60's and never had the benefit of being die cut.
My unmade Swordsman kit (like all saw cut kits of the time) has parts in it that are not that well cut (and none of them are symmetric) but "never the less" the finished model looks good - and they used much better quality plywood (in the Swordsman kits that I have seen).
The quality of the tooling and the fit of the parts in the smaller 34" Precedent Huntsman 31 kits is much better than can be found in the Aerokits Swordsman as they have been engineered to fit each other very well.
You mention SLEC. Now imagine how nice it would be to have them make a 1/12 scale Swordsman kit ?
There are no 1/12 scale Swordsman kits available at moment, but if they were to fill the gap in the market by making one , I bet it would fit together as well as the Precedent Huntsman kits - and they are unlikely to change the already well accepted size and shape of the Aerokits or P.Connolly plans so it could be a winner :-))
Bob.
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I am beginning to regret trying to convert the Swordsman I am building from the Aerokits plans to a "rear cabin" variant.
This rear cabin variant has the cabin roof that follows the lines of the extended cabin sides (combings), but the combing shapes on the Aerokits plans look like they are a little too low towards the back.
It turns-out that Fairey may have changed the profile of the rear cabin variants slightly to make a better roof line - but sadly I was unaware of this when started this modification.
If I can get a good side profile drawing of this revised combing shape I can cut off the combings and graft the revised profile shapes onto my model .
..........just as I thought things were progressing nicely......................
Bob.
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Bob, have sent you an email.
Will
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Some time back when I was unable to find another Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner, Harry suggested that I should try an in-runner for a change and reckoned that the Surpass 3674-2250KV would be a good substitute - and maybe even more powerful.
I have never had an in-runner in a power-boat before and noticed that most to those that seemed to be in the sort of power range that I was looking for were primarily aimed at model cars (and claimed to be water-proof) so I was happy to give Harrys recommendation a try and sent away for one.
Whilst peering through the Bangood site I noticed some water-cooling jackets to fit the 3674 series motors that were anodised in a nice orange/red colour and for less than a fiver each I just had try one.
The motors arrived weeks ago - but the water-cooling jacket to fit it only arrived today! The water jacket was not too keen to "slide" onto the motor body so I wiped some Vaseline (petroleum jelly) around the "O" rings and found the jacket was then possible to fit it and rotate the water nipple to a position that would best suite the installation in my hulls.
The motor will fit on my standard alloy water-cooled motor mounts so it is another motor that I can swap and change - water-cool - or run dry without any water cooling.
With the water-cooling fully connected up I can run the water through the ESC, on to the front motor bearing, and finally around the moor casing before being pumped out through the hull side.
With the motor fitted onto the alloy water-cooled motor mount I soldered my favourite 6mm gold plugs onto the leads so the motor is now ready to go!
I may give it a run in my Rapier so I have a direct comparison with the performance I have seen from the Turnigy 3648-1450 in the same hull. I hope it will be at least as powerful - or better :-))
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(Posted on the wrong thread - sorry!)DM
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The Inrunners...
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I don't know how to compare the power of an in-runner brushless motor with that of an out-runner brushless motor.
My Turnigy 3648-1450 performs far better than I would have thought possible in my restored Rapier, and gave me a very unexpected and pleasant surprise.
The motor was an "unknown" to me when I fitted it and I just hoped it would have enough power to push my overweight "restoration" model along at a decent sort of speed - but it has "power to spare" so I am trying to work out what size of in-runner would give a similar amount of power.
When I started my Swordsman build I intended fitting another Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner motor in it, but sadly this motor is no longer available, and Harry suggested that I should try a Surpass 3674-2250KV in-runner.
On the face of it the "numbers" suggest that it should be an even more powerful motor than my Turnigy 3648-1450, but I have heard that in-runners may not have quite so much "sparkle" as an equivalent spec out-runner?
Recently (and before the water jacket arrived), I saw the same motor with a lower KV on offer (Surpass 3674-1850KV) for just over £20, so I thought I would buy it (and another water jacket) just incase the 2250KV turned out to have more power than I needed - and I still have my 34" Wavemaster to power sometime in the near future so I know that the 1850KA motor will get used if it fails to have enough "oomph" for my Swordsman.
Anyone who has any experience of running both in-runners and out-runners of similar KV ratings who would like to share their experience would be more than welcome to post their findings on this thread as I know I am not the only one who has heard good and bad, both in favour and against each type!
My guess is that an out-runner should have the edge, and that my Surpass 3674-1580KV in-runner will not be as powerful as my (slightly lower numbers) Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner?.........but the Surpass 3674-2250KV could have more power?
Bob.
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When comparing the power output of the motors what you should be comparing is the wattage not the kV rating. An inrunner with the same watt rating as an outrunner will be both putting out the same power. What will differ is the rpm at which they put out the power. Outrunners tend to run at lower revs than the equivalent inrunner and will give a higher torque as well. So outrunners generally run larger props than inrunners or the inrunner will need a gearbox to drive the same prop. One of the best bit of equipment to have to compare brushless motors is a wattmeter, this connects between the battery and esc and will allow you to measure the current while the motor is under load and also the wattage. It is also very useful to check that you are not overloading the motor with too large a prop as this can burn out the esc or the motor.
Jim
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When comparing the power output of the motors what you should be comparing is the wattage not the kV rating. An inrunner with the same watt rating as an outrunner will be both putting out the same power. What will differ is the rpm at which they put out the power. Outrunners tend to run at lower revs than the equivalent inrunner and will give a higher torque as well. So outrunners generally run larger props than inrunners or the inrunner will need a gearbox to drive the same prop. One of the best bit of equipment to have to compare brushless motors is a wattmeter, this connects between the battery and esc and will allow you to measure the current while the motor is under load and also the wattage. It is also very useful to check that you are not overloading the motor with too large a prop as this can burn out the esc or the motor.
Jim
Thanks Jim,
So I now know that in-runners will rev harder but deliver less torque - hence the need for a smaller prop if both motors watt ratings are similar.
I will try to find the wattage of the Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner and the Surpass 3674-2250KV in-runner motors (and the Surpass 3674-1850KV motor too!).
A wattmeter would be handy - if I place one on the wires between the LiPo and the ESC, does it matter if it is the positive or negative wire that I interrupt to put the wattmeter on?
Also, is it possible to record this measurement when the boat is underway and working under load - or is the static (unloaded) comparison good enough to understand the power difference between the motors being compared?
Bob.
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Thanks Jim,
A wattmeter would be handy - if I place one on the wires between the LiPo and the ESC, does it matter if it is the positive or negative wire that I interrupt to put the wattmeter on?
Also, is it possible to record this measurement when the boat is underway and working under load - or is the static (unloaded) comparison good enough to understand the power difference between the motors being compared?
Bob.
The wattmeter is connected to both wires from the battery and outputs to both wires to the esc. This allows it to measure both voltage and current so can then calculate the watts. I think some of the more modern wattmeters have a recording function so will store the highest values during the run allowing you to give a better comparison. Unloaded values will show some differences but won't show the maximum values when running under load. You need to run under load to check the maximum current so that you don't overload the motor with too large a prop. At the least you can check the wattage by holding the boat at the side of the pond while giving the model full throttle.(Put the bow against the pondside for extra security) As the prop is basically stalled under this condition the value measured is likely to be higher than when free running but will give a useful idea of the current and wattage.
Jim
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The wattmeter is connected to both wires from the battery and outputs to both wires to the esc. This allows it to measure both voltage and current so can then calculate the watts. I think some of the more modern wattmeters have a recording function so will store the highest values during the run allowing you to give a better comparison. Unloaded values will show some differences but won't show the maximum values when running under load. You need to run under load to check the maximum current so that you don't overload the motor with too large a prop. At the least you can check the wattage by holding the boat at the side of the pond while giving the model full throttle.(Put the bow against the pondside for extra security) As the prop is basically stalled under this condition the value measured is likely to be higher than when free running but will give a useful idea of the current and wattage.
Jim
Thanks Jim,
I will take a look to see who sells suitable wattmeters at a decent price.
Bob.
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I have found these on Amazon - not very expensive - and free next day delivery too!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ARCELI-Analyzer-Precision-Digital-Measurement/dp/B07TDKBTYR/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=watt+meter&qid=1608122751&s=diy&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/ARCELI-Analyzer-Precision-Digital-Measurement/dp/B07TDKBTYR/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=watt+meter&qid=1608122751&s=diy&sr=1-6)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Precision-Analyzer-Consumption-Performance-Backlight/dp/B07M5XD4G9/ref=sr_1_7_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=watt+meter&qid=1608122751&s=diy&sr=1-7-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExS0dFR0szS0pWNUIxJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODIyMDUyMzVFVDFCSjhYME5MNSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDU4NjQyMVRZTjA2RkJaSUtLRSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX210ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU= (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Precision-Analyzer-Consumption-Performance-Backlight/dp/B07M5XD4G9/ref=sr_1_7_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=watt+meter&qid=1608122751&s=diy&sr=1-7-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExS0dFR0szS0pWNUIxJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODIyMDUyMzVFVDFCSjhYME5MNSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDU4NjQyMVRZTjA2RkJaSUtLRSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX210ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=)
The first one is 100watt (£10.99) and the second is 200watt.(£14.99)
I am tempted to buy the 200watt model - but maybe the 150watt meter is plenty big enough?
Bob.
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Personally Bob, I'd go for the bigger one.
It will read lower current, but the smaller ones won't read higher.
Last thing you need is to have to buy another in the future because the 1st one you bought was too small.
That's the theory I went with for my planes.
Will
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Knowing your driving style Bob, I'd certainly go for the higher of the 2 %)
Please also get out of the habit of mixing watts and amps. Watts = Amps x Volts.
The meter is rated at 200amps, so on 3S you could be up to 2200watts!
You have been warned <*<
Keep Safe
Tony
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Knowing your driving style Bob, I'd certainly go for the higher of the 2 %)
Please also get out of the habit of mixing watts and amps. Watts = Amps x Volts.
The meter is rated at 200amps, so on 3S you could be up to 2200watts!
You have been warned <*<
Keep Safe
Tony
Watt a cheek >>:-(
Are you suggesting that I drive my boats too quickly....?
That's watt power boats are designed to do.........go F-A-S-T O0
I'll bet your Ultima Dea won't be hanging about - watts the point of building a power boat and loitering about with it ?
........maybe the 200 whatvoltamp thingy is the size to go for? :-))
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Slow progress is being made on the Swordsman rear cabin roof assembly.
Developing the double curvature of the rear cabin top so that it "looks right" has been quite an absorbing (time consuming) activity that has needed constant reference to any views that I can find of the rear cabin variant of the Swordsman - and every different picture tends to show a slightly different series of curves when viewed from different angles.
The one thing I can see is that the cabin top cannot be nice and flat (easy to make) if it is to follow the shape of the extended cab side combings so the cabin top covering will be a double curvature and it will need a strong frame to fix it onto to avoid warping.
The Swordsman that I am building is from a copy of the original Aerokits kit plans and I am trying to blend the roof line to follow the curvature of the extended cabin side combings, so I am looking for a compromise that still "looks" right.
I really like the Aerokits construction method that has the cab sides integrated into the bulkheads as it makes for a really water resistant finished model, but this type of construction only has removable cabin rooftops for any required access.
This same situation will also apply to the rear cabin variant rooftop, and having to make it removable is a lot more tricky that it would be if it were "solid" ie - if it were being built into a model that had a complete lift-off superstructure.
I am building the rear roof top on a base that can be dropped into the space between the rear extended cabin side combings and due to the double curvature I am making it quite strong to resist any "twisting" that is more likely when the roof covering is under tension (at least when the skins are being stressed over the frames.)
To help with this I have made the base sit a little deeper into the hull at the transom end to gain some strength where the roof becomes more shallow and the formers would normally be a lot thinner and probably more likely to twist.
This deep drop-in "tray" may look a bit strange (and far too deep) when viewed "out of situ" but when it is dropped into place the rear of the roof will (hopefully) drop into place and look OK.
No doubt a few more happy evenings "tinkering about" with this rear cabin structure is something that I have to look forward to until I "get it right"
and the framework is ready for it's final "sanding to shape" before I can cut the 1.5mm plywood skins and convince them that they really do want to be contorted into the shape that I have in mind for them!
Hopefully I will be worth it and I don't have to resort to the "fall-back" plan of abandoning the idea and making the Swordsman with the low rear cabin as per the original kit!
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Why not just plank the thing with 8-10mm x 3mm hard balsa, obechi or bass strips? It's a lot easier than it looks and you'll get that compound curve dead right.
DM
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Have to agree with DaveM that planking will create a great compound curve, this is limewood planking on the deck of my Aquarama after sanding:
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/13/IMG_1317-Custom.jpg)
Hope that helps.
David.
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Quite agree too that planking is the way to go. Ply sheet just doesn't like compound curves and tends to bulge in unwanted places. Best to work with your material than against it.
Colin
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Thanks for the advice - I did fancy planking it right from the start as it would probably make it easier to cover the double curvatures, but I have made the framework to take 1.5mm ply skins and any thicker wood will take the roof too high - perhaps higher than the cab sides as they do run very close.
A few weeks back I bought some thin obechie strip to experiment with some deck planking ideas. I will take a look and see just how thin it is as it may be close enough to use instead of the 1.5mm plywood skins.
I realise that I can use thicker wood for planking the roof with and sand it back, but that would need some precision sanding to get it back to 1.5mm to "hit the marks" and I am not sure if my double curvature sanding technique is good enough to win that one!
Earlier this evening I added my final cross formers and when the adhesive has fully dried I can sand everything into its final shape before covering it - with ply skin or planking.
Another option that I thought about was filling the voids in-between the various roof frame formers with block balsa wood and sanding the whole thing to shape using the formers as natural sanding guides.
This would be a bit like shaping the roof on the Vic Smeed Remora that I have almost completed (just waiting for painting) but it should be a lot easier (in some ways) as the ply formers would make really good sanding references to work to - another idea to consider !
If it wasn't a lift-off roof I would definitely plank it as it would be much easier.
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Have to agree with DaveM that planking will create a great compound curve, this is limewood planking on the deck of my Aquarama after sanding:
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/13/IMG_1317-Custom.jpg)
Hope that helps.
David.
Planking does look nice Dave & Dave - and the lime wood looks really nice too (where did you get it?).
When I sand the frame formers back tomorrow I will see if I can make enough space to plank with 3mm (or similar).
Thanks for your advice,
Bob.
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SLEC sell bass strip and sheet - it's another name for lime.
DM
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SLEC sell bass strip and sheet - it's another name for lime.
DM
..........."not a lot of people know that"..................
Thank you Dave,
I did not know that Bass was another name for Lime - but thanks to you - I do now!
My next SLEC order will include some 5mm wide thin Bass strip as it looks like a nice wood. I don't know what its qualities are, but I will give some a try as it looks like the grain is a lot closer than the Obechie strip that I bought and it should stain nicely too.
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Another option that I thought about was filling the voids in-between the various roof frame formers with block balsa wood and sanding the whole thing to shape using the formers as natural sanding guides.
The Bass sheet comes in thicknesses down to 0.8mm. Obviously you can easily cut it to any width of planking you like with a craft knife.
https://www.slecuk.com/bass/bass-sheet/bass-sheet-100mm-x-915mm-4-x-36quot
You could use the 1.5mm or 2.4mm to plank over the roof frame formers, then, before sanding, glue some thicker sheet in underneath between the formers. Then you can safely sand the top down smooth without worrying about it getting too thin. You won't need to take much off anyway. The extra thickness undermeath will also beef up the structure so you don't risk putting your thumb through it when taking the top off!
Colin
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The Bass sheet comes in thicknesses down to 0.8mm. Obviously you can easily cut it to any width of planking you like with a craft knife.
https://www.slecuk.com/bass/bass-sheet/bass-sheet-100mm-x-915mm-4-x-36quot (https://www.slecuk.com/bass/bass-sheet/bass-sheet-100mm-x-915mm-4-x-36quot)
You could use the 1.5mm or 2.4mm to plank over the roof frame formers, then, before sanding, glue some thicker sheet in underneath between the formers. Then you can safely sand the top down smooth without worrying about it getting too thin. You won't need to take much off anyway. The extra thickness undermeath will also beef up the structure so you don't risk putting your thumb through it when taking the top off!
Colin
Good idea :-))
Thanks Colin.
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Morning Bob
I've used SLEC too, very happy with their wood. They can supply the Bass wood in planking strips of 1.5mm and various widths.
I've also used CMB as I need to match the Amati planks, their planks are here:
https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/lime_strip-p1.html (https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/lime_strip-p1.html)
Colins approach sounds good to avoid sanding through. This Aquarama is my first attempt at planking, the Lime / Bass is a pleasure to work with. I did find it needed a bit of an under cut to avoid surface gaps when on a curve, I used a mini plane. Can't comment on how it takes stain, on the aquarama its used as a first planking layer before the mahogany.
As per other builders I started at the centre and worked outward, some of the planks may need tapering, in this case I'd recommend doing the tapering in pairs so as to maintain symmetry.
Best regards
David.
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I was about to make a new rear cabin roof and take the advice given here by starting again with a new base plate and making another set of ribs to run across from left to right to better suite covering it with planking.
My current baseplate has rib formers that run from front to back and so would not be the best framework to plank onto if running the planks from front to back to make the best use of the planking's ability to conform to the double curvatures.
Whilst looking for some suitable wood, I picked-up a 1.5mm off-cut of ply and tried to bend it across the existing framework and thought that maybe with a little "persuasion" it may just cover the frames and possibly conform to the double curvature shapes too - if applied in two halves that met along the middle of the wide central spar/former.
I cut one skin to cover half of the roof and glued it down. A lot of brass nails were needed to hold the roof skin against the rib formers - and some clamps to keep it in position until the glue had set.
Last night I removed all of the nails and clamps and cut a "mirror image" skin to cover the other side of the rear cabin roof and repeated the process.
This morning I remove the remaining nails and clamps and was pleased to see that the roof shape had conformed to the double curvature shape that I was hoping to achieve.
Where the two skins joined along the central spar I gained a slightly elliptical gap as the skins stretched into position, but this gap was well covered by the wide central spar and so a little P38 took care of this easily enough.
What I did not expect was for the roof to gain a little "bulk" and I don't know if I can cope with this or not so I will give it a "good coat of looking at" to decide whether I should just dump it and start again - but I do like the way that the ply skins have "wrapped" and conformed to the double curvature shapes so nice and smoothly.
Life would have been so much easier if I had planned to plank this rear cabin roof right from the start - and I may end-up having to make another one in any case! <:(
Merry (small) Christmas everyone! :-))
Bob.
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Keep at it Bob, you'll get the look you want, even if it's not 1st time in some cases.
Looking forward to seeing your next photo uploads to see how you're progressing with the cabin roof.
Merry Christmas and enjoy the season as best you can.
Will
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Roofy Pics......
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Nice one Bob, making good progress there and it looks good too.
Keep up the good work.
Will
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The pictures show how far I got with the rear cab roof the last time I did any work on the boat just before Christmas.
When I "brave the cold" and get back out in my unheated workshop (shed) I will take another look at it.
The 1.5mm ply skin has taken the shape of the double curvature roof top much better than I feared it would, and I had already made plans to make it again with a planked top - so this is still an option.
The roof follows the shape of the cab sides quite well and when the mahogany "caps" are fitted to them it should sit slightly lower and look OK, but I have to admit that I am not too worried about trying to make a rivet counting replica of the original - I only want to make a model that looks "right" to me and one that I will enjoy running week after week for the foreseeable future.
I also have the scale "safety net" of knowing that some owners "customised" or "styled" their craft to meet their own requirements, and this owner has every intention of doing exactly that with these two versions of the Swordsman - one of them may even have a framed windscreen (not unlike the Corvette). Sacrilege to the purist maybe - but if it looks good....................
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The aft cabin roof has come out well Bob, despite any reservations that you may have had.
As for being 100% scale accurate or not, who cares!
You have to build it how you are happy with it and that's what matters at the end of the day.
I know that my boats won't be totally correct, but I will do what I can and as long as I'm happy with them, then I won't be worried about what anyone else says about them.
Will
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Does anyone happen to know the length and width off the sliding hatch cover on the rear cab Swordsman roof by any chance?
Once I can get this dimension it will also control the width of the double doors that provide the access to the rear cabin from the cockpit.
Presumably, the width of the similar pair of doors that lead into the front cabin from the cockpit will also be the same size too (?) so these rear hatch cover measurements will help to size both pairs of double doors that give access from the cockpit to the front and the rear cabins.
I can guess at it and probably make it look OK, but the advantage of working at 1/12 scale is that every foot becomes an inch on the model so when the actual measurements are known, it is easy to get things right without any advanced mathematics :-))
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My 1/16 Swordsman has the overall size of the sliding hatch as 44 x 44, which wil need to be scaled up to suit your model (approx 59 x 59).
Dave M
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Thanks Dave - that is very helpful. :-))
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I have just bought a copy of the Swordsman plans by P.Connolly as they were on offer at Nexus and I fancied having a copy to compare with the Aerokits plans that I am using to make my Swordsman from.
These plans are "printed to order" but I have to say that the ones that I have just received are not that impressive as some of the lines are either faded or missing in places - there is enough information left to work with, so not all is not lost....but I am surprised that this "newly printed" set of plans is such a poor copy.
Does anyone know what magazine would have had a "build review" for this plan by any chance?
My friend built his Swordsman from these plans and we were running our boats together in the late 60's/early 70's so the I am guessing that these plans could have been featured in a Model Maker magazine?
There is no date on this plan, but I think it would have been made sometime in the 1960's?
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Bob
I have the Phil Connolly article and original MM plans in .pdf format. Remind me of your E-Mail address and they're yours.
Dave M
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Thanks Dave - you are a mine of helpful information!
I have just sent you my email address by PM.
Stay safe,
Bob.
BTW - I looked at planking the deck but the Aerokits plans have the side windows drawn at the right sort of height to the deck, and when I placed the 1/16" planking alongside them it almost came up to the bottom of the window cut-out, so I will be painting these decks but saving my first foray into planking for another model!
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That's another advantage of having a removeable superstructure Bob!
To be honest, not that it's impossible, the decision to plank the deck really needs to be taken before building begins for the Aerokits method of construction. Not only does the height of the windows need to be adjusted, but its difficult to plank up against and along the side pieces once they're in place. Much easier to do beforehand and sand to line and then fix the side pieces. As said not impossible, but makes a fiddly job even more fiddly!
Chris
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The February 1965 edition of Model Maker and Model Boats magazine has a 1/2" scale Phil Connolly Swordsman plan in.
My copy arrived this morning.
Will
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That's another advantage of having a removeable superstructure Bob!
Chris
I much prefer the integrated construction Chris - no joints or gaps to worry about between the deck and the underside of the "lid" and definitely a lot more sea-worthy too!
My friend had a beautifully built Swordsman with lovely deck planking that he built from the P.Connolly plans, but when we went to race in the British off-shore championship race in the sea at Torquay - he had to "sit that one out" as any heavy "deck-wash" would have gone down into the hull - and thats assuming that his "lid" did not get blown-off in the waves first!
I have no plans to race off-shore or to run my Swordsman in the sea, but I do remember the difference that the construction made when the water got a bit choppy. The Aerokits integrated construction was strong and solid and together with the superb deep V hull design I never had any fears about running that boat in any weather conditions. I also found more than enough access via the removable cabin top - even when starting a Merco 61 twin-plug with a leather boot lace!
When I made my first Swordsman from the Aerokits kit, it was back in the 1960's and I painted the deck, now, (only 55 or so years later) - I had forgotten about that - but if I had remembered, I may well have raised the underside of the cab windows by 1/16 when I cut them out to allow for the thickness of the planking.
Planking the deck would not reach the underside of the cab windows, but they would look a little low, so at this moment I am thinking that I will paint the decks..............but you never know.............. %%
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The February 1965 edition of Model Maker and Model Boats magazine has a 1/2" scale Phil Connolly Swordsman plan in.
My copy arrived this morning.
Will
Lucky sod <:( ......but I did have an online copy of the Swordsman article and plan sent to me by DaveM this afternoon.
I remember my original copy of that magazine being delivered to my parents house, but over the years I have either lost it or (more likely) given it away.
Strangely, I still have the earlier 1964 Model Maker magazine complete with the free Christmas plan that I had delivered to my parents house - and all these years later, I am building another Remora from them at the moment.
Enjoy your weekend,
Bob.
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I have part 2 of the 1964 Swordsman article, but am waiting on delivery of part 1 still. Beginning of next week should see it arrive, hopefully.
Will
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I have part 2 of the 1964 Swordsman article, but am waiting on delivery of part 1 still. Beginning of next week should see it arrive, hopefully.
Will
I guess part one would have been in the January 1965 Model Maker magazine?
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April and May 64 i think is the two part article.
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April and May 64 i think is the two part article.
Was that for the smaller 20" Swordsman free plan that came with the April issue?
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Was that for the smaller 20" Swordsman free plan that came with the April issue?
To be honest, I'm not sure yet.
I'll tell you when the April one arrives.
Will
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The two part 1964 article was for the 1:12 version and you had to obtain the separate plans and the 1965 article with free plan was for the smaller 1:24 version and was simplified, has balsa hull skins and was designed for just electric rather than an ICE or electric.
Chris
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The original 33" version articles should be below - I use 'Magazine Exchange' online for back issues, very good service etc.
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The original 33" version articles should be below - I use 'Magazine Exchange' online for back issues, very good service etc.
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The original 33" version articles should be below -
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The original 33" version articles should be below -
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The original 33" version articles should be below -
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Thanks for adding the full build description for the P.Connolly Swordsman plans to this thread Mr Zippy. :-))
Hopefully it will encourage a few more to build a Swordsman - the 1/12 scale makes a really nice size model that performs really well.
Bob.
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A little while back I spent some time setting up and making a small jig to enable me to cut triangular section wood on a small bandsaw.
When I went out into the workshop (shed) tonight I saw the lengths of triangular section that I had cut and thought it was about time that I tried to fit them onto the underside of my Swordsman - and I also thought that it would make a nice change from making the rear hatch fit as well as I want it to - as this is taking a little longer than I had hoped!
I decided to fit three lengths on each side of the hull, and it went slightly better than I had feared that it might - but it was getting late - so I will take a look tomorrow to see how they look 8)
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Triangular stickpics.....
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The Aerokits plans shows 5 strakes fitted on each side of the hull but I did read somewhere that during testing with their early Swordsman models, Modav found that 3 strakes worked best.
My home made strakes are a bit over-size anyway and will seldom be seen, so I went with just 3 on each side and I will look forward to testing them against my other Swordsman when the boat is finished.
The other Swordsman that I am building is from an old Aerokits kit that I bought on eBay last year, and it came with the original small section triangular wood to be used for the strakes, and this hull has had all 5 of the strakes fitted on both sides as shown on the plan, so if the size and spacing of the strakes makes any difference at all on a 1/12 scale model, I will be able to see it - but I am not expecting much (if any) difference to be honest!
There is also a lot of variation seen on different models regarding how long the strakes should be and where they start and finish. I have made mine stop level with the transom and tried to follow the line of the keel forwards until they meet the side stringers - pretty much as per plan except for only fitting the 3 on each side and spacing them a little wider apart to equally cover the width of the hull.
I used PVA to fix them onto the hull, and the brass nails were only used to keep the wood against the hull until the glue dried and I have just popped out to the workshop (shed) this morning and removed them all. The strakes have dried OK, but I do have a couple of small splits to repair - but not as many as I expected when I started nailing the strakes down!
Some very thin super-glue was run along both sides of the strake edges just to see if any of it will wick (self-creep) into any small gaps and to help seal the strakes onto the hull skins.
My next job is to add some small amounts of P38 into the nail holes and to repair the wood where it split - only minor work - but I always find filling small areas like this take a lot more time than it should!
I may test to see how I get on with covering the strakes with cloth and resin, but that could be tricky and so the next best thing would be just to brush resin onto the strakes and along the edges to seal it as best as I can prior to under-coating.
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When I was building th SLEC kits I noticed that the photos online of Fairey craft sported a variety of different sprayrail patterns. Whether they were the originals or subsequent replacements I don't know. Dave Milbourn confirmed that on the models it is the chine rails which do virtually all the work of dispersing spray and that they MUST be sharp edged.
Possibly not so important with the other sprayrails but if you glass cloth them over then you will lose any sharp edges and possibly create voids underneath so I just applied resin directly to the rails after running thin glue along the joint, Superphatic in my case but Cyano will have the same effect of strengthening and waterproofing the joint.
Colin
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I think painting resin on these strakes will be by far the easiest solution to harden them and protect them.
Keeping the spray rails "sharp edged" is something I have always done - right from my first Swordsman that I built in the 1960's, but the strakes can also be quite important to keep "sharp edged" too as they help to control the "side slip" (not the spray) and come into play when turning the craft at speed.
This is especially so with a "deep vee constant mono-hedren" hull format like that used on the Swordsman that encourages the craft to "dig-in" and lean over when "cornering" fast.
There may or may not be any straight line "directional stability" advantages to running with sharp edged strakes, but some claim this to be another advantage of adding them.
When I was interested in racing, I also took note of the theory of applying an "orange peel" type texture to the "in-water" under-surfaces as being the "slipperiest" and most efficient surface of least resistance - better (more efficient) to have a textured surface than a polished smooth surface - apparently!
If I could apply a cloth covering with no trapped air pockets well enough, the natural weave could be used to give a textured surface as long as it was wiped off (carded) when wet to remove any surplus resin and not "glazed-over" with too heavy a coat of resin - but to be honest, I have no plans to race anything anymore and a smooth surface is a lot easier to achieve than a textured one - so I won't be spending any time on texturing this Swordsman hull.
I used a very thin super-glue to "wick" into the joint between the strakes and the ply skin using capillary attraction to pull the thin liquid into any tiny gaps that the aliphatic PVA may have bridged. I may also brush some of this very thin cyno-acrylic into the obechie strakes to harden them before applying the resin.
Whilst I am at it, I may as well treat the chine rails in the same way too.
The resin top coating will seal the strakes and the chine rails nicely and when dry it will leave a nice hard surface to protect the sharp edges from rounding-off too quickly when in regular weekly use. I am not too sure if it would be best to use glass fibre resin to get the hardest surface coating - but it is a bit smelly to apply in a small workshop (shed) and it is too cold to work outside at the moment so I think I will use epoxy resin this time!
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After filling the small holes left after I removed the brass nails that I used to hold the strakes in place until the PVA had dried, I used P38 to fill them along with the odd couple of small splits that I caused when nailing the obechie strakes to the hull.
After sanding the filler back, the finished result looked OK, but I know that when under-coated, any small problems are much easier to see - so I painted the area with white wood primer.
This may have been a better idea if I had done it after coating the strakes with resin - but I forgot (!), and it's too late now - so I will have to stay with a conventional finish without any epoxy coating!
After recovering from my "mistake", it got me thinking.............
Back when I first started building r/c model boats in the 1960's we never used epoxy finishing coats or cloth coverings (other than nylon and dope for control-liners wings) so we painted the models (often with Humbrol or Japlac enamels without any under-coat!) and sanded and gradually built-up the paint coats to a nice finish - and that was it.
I used my r/c boats a lot and even raced my first "conventionally finished" (see above) Swordsman in the sea.......and it survived to a grand old age, and when it was finally passed-on to its new owner many years later - it was still intact.
The old Rapier that I recently restored was also "conventionally finished" by its first owner (painted straight onto wood) and as I sanded back down through various layer of paint to the original wood, I could see that it had never had any "specialist" coatings either, and although not finished particularly well, it has survived some really bad treatment before I restored it some 50 plus years later!
Having recalled these things, I reminded myself that r/c model boats have been built and finished "conventionally" for well over fifty years and have mostly survived without any of these technical finishes to help them.
Now I am happy again to stop worrying and continue to paint and finish my Swordsman with "conventional" finishes - and only use epoxy's etc when it will help me reinforce areas such as motor mounts etc - and I always used glass fibre to reinforce these areas in the past in any case - so there is nothing really new there either !
I am sure that many will produce "exhibition quality" models using all of the currently available technical finishing aids, but I am happy to get my boats "wet" and enjoy running them a little sooner and accept that my boats will not have a show winning finish - but it won't stop me enjoying them!
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I can understand why some people go to great lengths to achieve superb detail and a 1st class finish, but I would much prefer a 20 yard boat, one that gets used and looks good one the water, but like my school reports, could have done better.
Then again, I am very much a novice in model boat building, especially from a plan not a kit and without Dads help, so I'll be happy if it even floats and doesn't fill with water quicker than the battery lasts O0
Will
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{-) {-)
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Hi Will,
Once you get started you will soon see for yourself that there is nothing to fear about building r/c powerboats from a good plan (or a classic kit) as it is quite a simple construction....it has to be simple or I wouldn't be able to do it!
I have made card templates from the plans for most of the boats that I have made - including this Swordsman - and drawing around them onto the plywood makes it easy to make new parts - as often as you like.
The best tool you can have is a small hobby size bandsaw - with one of these, cutting parts accurately is really easy. When I made my boats from plans back in the 60's (Suzie Q and Remora), I only had a Hobbies fretsaw frame - it took longer to cut the parts out - but I wasn't in a hurry.
I still have that same Hobbies fret saw frame and its as good now as it was when I first bought it! Sometimes I still use it as I find that cutting parts out with it is a very satisfying process.
A "20 yard boat sounds good to me" .......but you will probably find that it will still look good when it is a lot closer too ;)
Bob.
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When I checked the strakes tonight they looked OK and they won't need much cleaning-up before I give them an under-coat, so I drilled and fitted the rudder and water-scoop so the underside of the hull is now completed.
Sadly, the only rudders and water-scoops that I can find are the type that come with black moulded plastic parts. I would love to be able to buy them in brass as the moulding quality of these is quite naff!
The water-scoop and outlet are moulded OK and if you like the shape they do work. I slightly re-shaped the inlet and fitted it......but I would replace it in a flash if I could find a traditional brass one.
The rudder has the main post mounted in a black moulded plastic post. I have used these before, but they are getting worse! Mine came in a Perkins packet, and I think the moulds that are used to make theirs from must be getting well worn as the moulded thread is really badly moulded.
My fingers were sore after running the brass nut up and down the threaded post several times to try to make it loose enough to be able to turn once it was fitted inside the hull (and harder to reach)! I was hoping that they used an M8 thread so I could run a die down the shaft to cut the thread properly - but sadly it is not a Metric M8 thread - and I don't know what it is.
I cleaned-up the moulding line with a scapel and gently re-formed the thread - but only enough to allow the nut to turn - it is still very tight!
I am sure that if anyone started to remake the old originals in brass there would be a lot of us queuing-up to buy them and throwing these plastic ones in the bin!
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The Swordsman now has the its underside work finished and it has now been under-coated. The 3 homemade strakes on each side look good and hopefully they will work well too.
A second Swordsman that I am finishing had been part assembled from an old Aerokits kit when I acquired it, and it has had 5 smaller sized strakes fitted on each size that were made from the smaller size triangular strips that were included in the original kit. Sadly this small section triangular stripping is now longer available so the only way for us to get some in the future will be for us to make it ourselves.
The two hulls make an interesting contrast with each other, and it will be good to find out what (if any) difference there is to be seen between a hull with 5 smaller strakes on each side of the hull and the other with only 3 (larger) strakes on each side.
Both hulls will have the same rudder and water pick-up fitted. If I get some spare time later (and I can find some suitable bar) I will replace the plastic posts with some made from brass. Although I dislike the plastic types, I have to admit that "in use" they have performed well enough in my Rapier so replacing them is not going to take any priority over any other builds at the moment.
I had some spare stripping left over that I had cut to use for strakes and I used them to give a sharper edge to the Aerokits (kit-built) Swordsman as the previous owner had got as far as the skins and fitted the side spray rails, but he then sanded them flush with the underside of the hull, so there was no angled "square shoulder" left on the sides of the hull.
By adding a pair of these oversize strakes along each side it has given a nice angled edge along each side to supplement the function of the strakes......and look good too! I really like the way this has turned-out, they are not has impressive looking as Harry has achieved with his Sea Raven, but they are over sized and I like the exaggerated look they give.
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Rail Pics...
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The last picture shows the Aerokits Swordsman that I am finishing from an original part-built kit, with my own Swordsman in the background that has some white under-coat on it ready for final "snagging" and ready for top coating at a later stage.
The kit model shows the nice small triangular strakes that came in the kit and all five have been fitted on each side, whereas my model only has three of my slightly bigger home made strakes fitted so the two can be compared.
Also visible is the extra home made strakes that I fitted on top of the lower spray rails of the kit built model as they had been sanded flat to the bottom skins by the previous owner/builder, and I wanted to try to re-establish a better profile - even though it is now a heavier that "true scale" would be.
The brass tacks held the triangular section wood in place while the PVA adhesive was drying, but they have since been removed and the tack-holes filled.
When both hulls have their undersides under-coated I can turn them over, put them back on their stands and return to building the super structures again. Painting in this cold weather out in my workshop (shed) is not much fun and I am looking forward to cutting some fresh wood again!
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Are these brass water scoops any good?
They were out of stock for quite a while but seem to be back in now (though i haven't actually checked they really have them - maybe worth a phone call first).
They seem to have gone up in price a little too :((
https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/brass-water-scoop-set/
Cheers,
Mark
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Those brass pick-ups look very good Mark - thanks for the link.
Unfortunately they don't give any dimensions, but I am guessing that they will be well worth a try and have just ordered one this evening.
Bob.
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My 1/16 Swordsman has the overall size of the sliding hatch as 44 x 44, which wil need to be scaled up to suit your model (approx 59 x 59).
Dave M
Hi Dave,
I am just returning to working on the Swordsman superstructure after "finishing" my work on the hull underside.
59 x 59 for the sliding hatch looks "right" on my rear cabin top (I have just drawn it on) - can you let me know what the overall diameter of the circular escape hatch is please?
Judging by the photograph of your Swordsman, it looks like the diameter at the base of the escape hatch is not much smaller than the width of the hatch?......but I know that the angle of the camera may make the closer escape hatch look a littler bigger than it is.
Thanks for your help,
Bob.
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Bob
The 'donut' base is 36mm OA on my 1/16 scale model and made of 1/8" thick bass, so yours will need to be approx 48mm diameter. You could use the spacing between the planks as an "eyeball" guide.
Dave M
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Bob
The 'donut' base is 36mm OA on my 1/16 scale model and made of 1/8" thick bass, so yours will need to be approx 48mm diameter. You could use the spacing between the planks as an "eyeball" guide.
Dave M
Thanks Dave,
That looks about "right" too.
Stay safe!
Bob.
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It's been a bit cold in the workshop (shed) this week, but I popped out there this afternoon and cut a couple of round shapes to form the base and the top cap of the circular round window/escape hatch.
When I had cut the two disks and tidied them up a little I bored a 5mm hole into the middle to each of them and put a long 5mm bolt with a large washer on the top and under face and clamped one of the disks between them. Using this M5 bolt as a mandril I could then use it to hold the plywood disks while I trued them up.
I have a couple of the tiny little Sieg X0 Micro Mills that I use whenever I can, they are very small and can be lifted on and off of the bench whenever I can find a use for one of them. One has a drill chuck fitted so I used this to bore the holes and then put the first disk assembly into the drill chuck and sanded it until it was perfectly circular and then rounded the top edge off slightly.
After repeating this process with the second slightly smaller top disk I had a pair of nice round shapes to work with.
The larger of the two disks was positioned on the rear cabin top, glued, and then screwed down through the M5 hole, taking advantage of the thick central ply rib that I had fitted to give the roof skins a wide bonding surface.
When the PVA has dried I will remove the screw and laminate the top cap centrally onto it after I have decided how I am going to replicate the shape and fitted the brass cover rails.
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Pics
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Are these brass water scoops any good?
They were out of stock for quite a while but seem to be back in now (though i haven't actually checked they really have them - maybe worth a phone call first).
They seem to have gone up in price a little too :((
https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/brass-water-scoop-set/ (https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/brass-water-scoop-set/)
Cheers,
Mark
Hi Mark,
Just to let you know that I did order a pair of these brass water scoop sets (the same evening that you suggested them) and they have only just arrived this morning !
The cost was £22.40 including postage and they are made by Raboesch (Water-cooling Nipple 100-01 6mm M6).
My concerns about the dimensions are unfounded - they are the perfect size for my Swordsman (should that be Swordsmen?) and although they are a little expensive, they would also work well on any of my future powerboat builds...........so I had better start saving %)
Stay safe,
Bob.
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Hi Bob,
Glad i could help!
Cheers,
Mark
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I have had my first attempt at planking!
The rear cab roof that am working on was the recipient of my attentions and although it is not too bad - it could be better!
After I have sanded it to improve the surface, I will no doubt have to find out what to use as a grain filler (or even a small gap filler - in my case!) followed by a sanding sealer (?) and some sort of varnish.
Any recommendations on any of the above would be gratefully received !
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A little research can yield a lot of information. I use Option #3 (Zap Finishing Resin and 34gsm cloth). I've found it wise not to mix a water-based finish with a solvent-based one or with a resin-based one, so once you've chosen a finish base-type then keep with it.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/finishing-and-sealing-of-wooden-hulls/18771 (https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/finishing-and-sealing-of-wooden-hulls/18771)
Dave M
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A little research can yield a lot of information. I use Option #3 (Zap Finishing Resin and 34gsm cloth). I've found it wise not to mix a water-based finish with a solvent-based one or with a resin-based one, so once you've chosen a finish base-type then keep with it.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/finishing-and-sealing-of-wooden-hulls/18771 (https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/finishing-and-sealing-of-wooden-hulls/18771)
Dave M
Thanks Dave,
I never thought about using a cloth covering over the wood planked decks.
My thought process was to either varnish or perhaps consider epoxy resins, but first I need to find a suitable filler and sealer to prepare the surface.
As long as I can get a fine finish, I can see the benefits of sealing everything in with the cloth covering.
My first thought was to look for some clear polyurethane varnish - but that would probably be considered a bit "old fashioned" these days as this dates back to the 1960's when I last varnished a deck with a "marine varnish" and as far as I know that was just a clear polyurethane ?
I also have some nice dye to give a realistic weather faded finish to one of my Swordsman decks, but I am asking about a clear finish as I would like to show the wood colours on one of the decks as a contrast to the other model that will have a "weathered deck".
Bob.
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A little research can yield a lot of information. I use Option #3 (Zap Finishing Resin and 34gsm cloth). I've found it wise not to mix a water-based finish with a solvent-based one or with a resin-based one, so once you've chosen a finish base-type then keep with it.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/finishing-and-sealing-of-wooden-hulls/18771 (https://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/finishing-and-sealing-of-wooden-hulls/18771)
Dave M
That is an excellent and helpful article on finishing a model using covering materials to improve the surface smoothness and to add strength etc.
The first time I used Z-Poxxy with cloth was on the inside of my Swordsman around the motor mount and I found it to be a little too thick to penetrate the cloth readily and that made it difficult to keep the cloth from moving around on the end of the brush!
Tony suggested using a very thin coating of 3M SprayMount to hold the cloth in place and to thin the epoxy with Isopropel (rubbing alcohol) - so I put them both in my Amazon basket - and forgot about them - until now!
Both are now on the way to me so I will be ready to have another go with the finishing resin when they arrive.
I am still a little unsure about covering the deck planking with a cloth covering because I don't really want a "glass-like" finish on the planking, but I will experiment by planking a piece of scrap and try using the finishing resin with and without the cloth to see what it looks like before deciding which way to go!
Stay safe,
Bob.
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I am still a little unsure about covering the deck planking with a cloth covering because I don't really want a "glass-like" finish on the planking
Read the article again. None of my own models has ever used glass-cloth-plus-resin on areas which were subsequently finished in 'natural' wood stain and varnish. My current preference is for Rustin's Clear Plastic Coating 2-pack varnish followed by a rub-down with a Scotchbright pad to flatten it down. As I've always said, however, suit yourself.
Dave M
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I have had my first attempt at planking!
The rear cab roof that am working on was the recipient of my attentions and although it is not too bad - it could be better!
After I have sanded it to improve the surface, I will no doubt have to find out what to use as a grain filler (or even a small gap filler - in my case!) followed by a sanding sealer (?) and some sort of varnish.
Any recommendations on any of the above would be gratefully received !
Hi Dave,
Your answer to this question was to direct me to your article on hull finishing.........and I thought that was your answer to my question about what to use as a grain filler. %)
I was going to use sanding sealer but I was unsure if this would be a good idea if I was going to use a polyurethane yacht varnish to finish the deck as I thought that they may not be compatible with each other.
My original thought was to use yacht varnish on the planking, and I have seen Rustins two pack "floor varnish" used on some models on this site :-:https://www.thercmodelboatforum.com
Some like to build the two pack coating up over several applications and like the shiny finish, but taking it back to matt with a light abrasive (as you suggest) would be my preference.
I suppose it would be possible to achieve a similar result using finishing epoxy and taking that back to matt with a light abrasive too?
I am not in any rush, so I will experiment with different "varnish" finishes and epoxy some test pieces and see what works best for me.
Stay safe,
Bob.
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Getting back to the build - I checked the strakes to rub-out any areas that needed some attention, so the underside of the hull is now ready for some more under-coat.
The planked rear cab top and the hatch was finished-off and is ready for finishing after I have experimented with different varnish (or even finishing epoxy) to decide what works best for me in my somewhat over-crowded workshop(shed).
I added a little lip to the rear of the cabin top as I thought it would look better when viewed from the stern - but that turned out to be a lot trickier than it should be and I may have to cut it off and try again!
I also added some mahogany capping to the Swordsman cab sides so when they are fully dried I can look to see what sort of profile would look best. I am not sure if I should add some square stripping under the overlap to give it a thicker outer edge profile before I sand it to shape.
I also need to get some air intakes made and fitted and decide what to do about a deck finish. If I keep practising with planking - I might even get the hang of it one day..... ok2
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After doing a little more work on the Swordsman this afternoon, I thought I would get some varnish on order so it will be here when I need it - and to test against any other possible finish that I would like to try on my planked areas.
My first stop was on Rustins own site to see what they make that would be the most suitable, and the only coating that they sell for outdoor use (ie water-proof) is Rustins Yacht Varnish.
Their two-pack plastic coatings are not recommend for outdoor use - which came as a bit of a shock, so I checked their two-pack flooring range and again nothing was recommended for outdoor use!
Even their polyurethane varnish is now water based and is not suggested as being suitable for outdoor use!
My Swordsman is being built for regular use (and not as a display model) so it is looking like my initial thoughts on using yacht varnish could still be a good choice.
I will keep looking at other manufacturers products and I have also sent a product enquiry to Rustins to ask them if they have anything other than Rustins Yacht Varnish that would be suitable for regular outdoor use on the decking of a boat, yacht or radio controlled model boat (one that would get regular use and exposure to water).
Back in the 1960's I remember "International Yacht Varnish" was also being used on the decks of "the real thing" and r/c model yachts and models with planked decks so I will check them out as well and then get something on order that will work well outdoors and stay waterproof in use.
I would like to find something that will wear as well as the paint on the rest of the model, but maybe that is not possible?
I have made and modified anatomical pistol grips for years and use various finishing oils (mainly walnut oil on pistol grips) so I was thinking about trying various "stock finishing oils" as I know oils are also used for treating and protecting outdoor woods, but most of them will gradually turn grey when left outdoors without regular attention so at this moment I am thinking it has to be yacht varnish ......or perhaps a finishing epoxy?
I need to do some testing!
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Try Ronseal Polyurethane hardglaze.
https://www.ronseal.com/for-home/wood-care/wood-varnish/ultra-tough-hardglaze-varnish/
Although noninally for interior use it is fine for models unless you leave them out in bright sunshine all the time in which case they might yellow a bit. Not a problem with model boats.
Blackfriar also sell the same type:
https://www.blackfriar.co.uk/product/polyurethane-varnish/
Colin
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Try Ronseal Polyurethane hardglaze.
https://www.ronseal.com/for-home/wood-care/wood-varnish/ultra-tough-hardglaze-varnish/ (https://www.ronseal.com/for-home/wood-care/wood-varnish/ultra-tough-hardglaze-varnish/)
Although noninally for interior use it is fine for models unless you leave them out in bright sunshine all the time in which case they might yellow a bit. Not a problem with model boats.
Blackfriar also sell the same type:
https://www.blackfriar.co.uk/product/polyurethane-varnish/ (https://www.blackfriar.co.uk/product/polyurethane-varnish/)
Colin
Good Shout!
Thanks Colin.......I had forgotten about Blackfriars - but they have been around for ages ..and they say theirs is still spirit based!
Ronseal hard glaze is also "tough against water" so that could be spirit based too?
I will check them both out - thanks for your contribution.
Bob.
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Yes, hardglaze is spirit based. I use it all the time.
Colin
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Planking pics.....
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My 6 berth (?) Swordsman rear cab roof has a plywood skin and has been overlaid with planking (my first attempt at planking anything). Maybe if I can get a little better at adding planking to a model in the future, I will see if if I can replicate the distinctive caulking lines that can be seen on the real thing, but for now I have tried to use strips of wood that vary in shade a little and hope that when they are varnished they wont look too bad.
The un-finished turret will be the base for the escape hatch but I won't be dong any more work on that until after I have got some varnish on the planks and I have found some better pictures of the real thing as I believe the four bars that run across the top of it are right-angled sections of steel (presumably stainless).
On one Swordsman that I have seen pictures of, these four bars actually look a bit "agricultural", and (to me at least) don't look like they belong on such an expensive and well finished boat. These four angle bars look like they are cut in the middle and welded in a peak shape to cover the domed roof light "lens" rather than being "shaped" to make them follow the lens curvature and look nicer.
I don't know how much detail I will try to replicate on this escape hatch as my Swordsman will be a "working boat" and so it will only be seen at some distance as it plows around the lake. I also think I have positioned the escape hatch base a little too far forwards - and that looks even worse now that I have added a small "lip" on the rear end of the cab roof - although the lip does make this cabin top look better when viewed from the stern than it did without the lip.
The wooden "cap" that temporarily sits on top of this base is too heavy and would make the escape hatch too tall, and even though I will be taking some "artistic licence" by claiming that my finished model has been "custom built to a particular customers individual specification" this needs changing and the finished item will be lower.
I think in the longer term I will scrap this roof and make anther one, but for now it will stay as I want to make some more progress on getting the boat on the water so I can enjoy running it. This lack of attention to detail would probably horrify the true scale modellers, but I like to use my boats rather than worry too much about every last detail - if they "look right" - I am happy!
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Looks pretty good to me.
Colin
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Bob, I agree with Colin. Nothing wrong with that at all.
I can tell you now, if my first attempt at planking turns out that well, I'll be very happy indeed.
Will
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The enquiry that I sent to Rustins regarding the suitability of any of their products for use on my planked decking received a reply this morning:-
"Thankyou for your query, our Yacht Varnish is the best option we have for a weather resistant finish on boat decking. We do not have a two part exterior finish in our range that would suit this application more than the Yacht Varnish."
For more information, please visit www.rustins.co.uk/rustins (http://www.rustins.co.uk/rustins)
kind regards,
Max Lloyd Technical
Rustins LtdEst. 1924
I was pleased that Rustins took the time to reply to my enquiry and so I have ordered some Rustins Yacht varnish to use this time, but I will also remember the two spirit based varnishes from Ronseal and Blackfriers that Colin suggested for future reference as well..
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Today I had two small 250ml tins of Rustins Yacht Varnish arrive in the post so I can get started with my plank finishing experiments. I see the suggestion on the tin is to thin the first coat on previously untreated wood with 25% white spirit, so that should penetrate well into the planking.
Also (using Dave M's colour advice) I ordered some Ford Olympic Blue for the cab tops and some Ford Royal Blue for the cab sides (and stern), and these colours also arrived today so when the construction is finished I have the finishing colours in stock and ready to go.
I already have some white paint (although I have no idea what shade it is) but I am fairly sure that it will look OK, however, I couldn't find anywhere that stocked any nice warm weather, so I may have to wait for that to arrive naturally! %)
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Yes, thin the first coat or two to buld up a decent base for the finishing coats.
The Faireys do look their best in blue and white and many of the full size ones are still painted in those colours.
Colin
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Yes, thin the first coat or two to buld up a decent base for the finishing coats.
The Faireys do look their best in blue and white and many of the full size ones are still painted in those colours.
Colin
Its the classic factory colour scheme Colin, but you know that I am also finishing an old original Aerokits Swordsman at the same time as my own plan-built Swordsman and my original Aerokits Swordsman kit that I built in the 1960's was RED................so you never know............... %)
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moved.
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moved.
The coloured silicone fuel tube that I use in my cooling systems is also shown on page 9 of this thread Colin. It can be seen linking the water-cooling mount nipples to those on the motors water cooling jacket sleeve.
Bob.
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The first coat of a thinned-down yacht varnish has been applied to the planked rear cab top and the planked cockpit floor of the Swordsman
I tried to replicate the square hatch shapes of the cockpit floor that covers each section of the engine bay frame with the planking pattern on a 4mm plywood floor. It looks OK, but as the PVA dried it has caused the floor to warp slightly upwards, so I nailed it down on the bench before the thin varnish was brushed on and hope that I can persuade it to dry flat again.
When looking at "The White Swordsman", I noticed that the owner had fitted a stainless wrap-around Fairey badge on the bows.
I really fancy replicating this badge on the bows of my Swordsman model. Cutting the shape would be OK, but stamping or engraving the detail onto it would not be easy, but I suspect that if a few of us "clubbed together" we may be able to get some stamped-out at a reasonable price?
Any other Fairey enthusiasts interested? ...........especially anyone that may know where to get them made! :-))
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Another thinned coat of varnish was added yesterday and I started to make the outline of the lockers that some Swordsman have towards the rear of the cockpit. I have seen these with fitted cushions on at least one Swordsman to provide some extra casual seating and thought I would try to replicate them.
I have changed my mind about trying to stamp out some Fairey badge style of shields to fit on the bows, but rather just make an individual design to fit my own Swordsman.
In-between waiting for glue or varnish to dry I will have little "fettle" with a small piece of stainless steel to see what I can come up with and bend it to shape to see if it looks any good.
The snow and cold weather does not encourage me to spend too much time out in my little workshop(shed) but a few minutes now and again helps to keep me occupied!
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For my 1:16 scale Swordsman I went on the Fairey Owners website and copied some of the emblems and the flag onto my PC as Jpg images. I then put them into a MS Word document and resized them and printed them out on paper which I stuck in place with Superphatic glue (water clean up). I then sealed them with clear artists varnish. It worked quite well.
With the flag I just copied and reversed the image on my PC and stuck the two halves together.
Colin
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For my 1:16 scale Swordsman I went on the Fairey Owners website and copied some of the emblems and the flag onto my PC as Jpg images. I then put them into a MS Word document and resized them and printed them out on paper which I stuck in place with Superphatic glue (water clean up). I then sealed them with clear artists varnish. It worked quite well.
With the flag I just copied and reversed the image on my PC and stuck the two halves together.
Colin
..........if only I had that amount of knowledge ............computers are not my thing (sadly) <:(
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Pics.......
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Coming along nicely.
It's good when you get onto the detailing, can be very time consuming but makes all the difference and is very satisfying.
Chris
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Coming along nicely.
It's good when you get onto the detailing, can be very time consuming but makes all the difference and is very satisfying.
Chris
Thanks Chris,
I am using 1.5mm thick planking. If I had used thinner wood I might have been able to make better joints (like marquetry) although I am not too pleased with my first effort I hope I can improve with practice.......meanwhile I need to find some mahogany coloured filler %)
Painting the decks does have some appeal.......................
Stay safe.
Bob.
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Great progress Bob.
Loving the detail, she's looking better and better with every post.
I have all of this ahead of me and to attempt for the first time.
We all really need to have a Fairey get together one day in the future, that would be an impressive sight.
If we can make it in a few years though as I may have finished at least one of mine by then :embarrassed:
Will
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Thanks Will,
I am gradually chewing away at it.
Detail is not really my thing, I mostly enjoy running my boats and like you, if it looks good at 20 yards then that will do for me, but I also like to try things that I haven't done before - and decorative planking was one of them!
This extended lock-down has made the difference between adding some planking or just painting it, but I doubt that the second Swordsman (being completed from an old Aerokits kit) will be so lucky - especially if the inoculations programme goes to plan as I would rather be out in the fresh air, riding my MTB and enjoying some time at the lakeside sailing my boats!
Yes it would be good to get together some time and give all our boats a run. I would love to see a group of Fairey boats all together on the lake, but I would also like to see some of the old classic power boats from the early days to include the superb Vic Smeed powerboat designs (such as Remora and Suzie Q) and of course the equally impressive boats that came from the pen of Les Rowell so that would embrace lots from the Wavemaster 34 through all of the Aerokits range and the LesRo power boats such as the Rapier and Javelin.
If we were to also include the scale models that have been made of powerboats from that same era (such as Tonys Jackie S) we could have quite a well supported regatta - so get your camper van finished and bring a couple of boats with you!
Bob.
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I know what you mean Bob.
My intention is to attempt some accurate details on my boats, but I won't be losing sleep if I'm not skilled enough at present to carry this out
As you say, I will be happy if the boats look good on the water, rather than worrying about how detail correct they look on a table/bench at the lake side.
I like your idea of a Classic Power Boat meet too, that would also be a fantastic sight I'm sure.
We'll hopefully get some more done on the van this weekend. Slowly slowly, catchy monkey as they say.
Keep up the good work.
Will
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Hi Guys,
Re Classic Power Boat meetings - Fleetwood Model Boat Club host an annual classic model boat weekend in July,
it attracts lots of Fairey's, usually ic. powered and all manner of vintage boats - Aerokits, Veron, Frog, Lesro cruisers and crash tenders etc,
many Vic Smeed designs - Remora's, Suzie Q's.
The event evolved around 12 years ago from the Fire Boat/Crash Tender days originally held at Burton, Leicester and Fleetwood model boat clubs,
where Leicester ic. enthusiasts met fellow Fleetwood ic. enthusiasts and organised an event for classic powerboats.
Videos of past meetings are around on Youtube etc. regards Paul
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Hi Paul,
That is a great picture - it could have been taken in the 1960's!
Maybe when we are free to move freely again I could come over to Fleetwood and join in a future event?
It would also be nice to arrange a similar event on the superb Southport Model Boat Club lake - but this event would have to be for electric powered boats as ic engines are not allowed on the Southport Club lake.
It is nice to see a couple of Fairey models in the foreground - and I see that they both have "improved" wooden framed windscreens rather than the wrap-around clear plastic screens. This has always been a popular modification, and if done well it looks good too!
Stay safe,
Bob.
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My intention with my Faireys is to build them as well as I can and put some detail into them but not be too obsessive. With my Huntsman 28 I simply varnished the deck, no lines or planking as I just fancied a gloss deck which is totally wrong!
I'm not rushing my builds as I have RTR/ARTR including a yacht to use in the meantime. Looking forward to getting my own builds on the water though. Taking my time as I don't intend building the same models again as I've got others to start and don't want to look at my existing builds and think that I wished I'd done things better. They won't be perfect but I want to get them as good as I can with my skills. I enjoy using them but the build is important to me and provides a lot of satisfaction.
Chris
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Chris how about a round britain racer version with painted decks etc ? Paul
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Actually Paul, that's not a bad idea. I started the H28 before I had a go at deck planking and as I said just fancied a model with a high gloss deck. No detail on the deck yet so easy enough to change.
Chris
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The question then Chris, would be which design would you go for? :-)
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Got to be one of the Ford boats in blue and white. The bow rail is nice and easy as well!
Chris
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If it was me doing it, then it wouldn't be FordSpeed, as she's been done so many times before.
Would be nice to see one of the other ones instead.
Will
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Hi Will,
Are painted racing boats all Huntsman 28 - or are they Huntsman 31 ?
Was there ever a painted Swordsman?
Bob.
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I'd forgotten to post requested pics of my modified cockpit version - recent health issues are stopping me gaining access to the model packed away in the loft.
While 'snowed in' yesterday afternoon, I searched around on Mayhem and found early photo's of my Swordsman at Mayhem, Wicksteed Park in 2009.
The white taped area is a removable section of planking that's replaced by a mesh grill, covering a speaker mounted under the cockpit floor,
pics taken before the sound system was fitted and the hull painted.
Amazed how tiny the brushless looks compared with the monsters available today, but she really goes !
way faster than scale speed - leaping out of the water if you wack the throttle wide open, this can be seen in the 10th photo !
Paul
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17021.125.html (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17021.125.html)
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Nicely built Swordsman Paul, no wonder it won an award. An interesting thread as well as there are some other nice models shown.
Chris
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Bob
Of the wooden hulled race boats Huntress, Huntsman 28 and Huntsman 31 had some of them with painted decks, especially the Ford supported ones.
There was only 4 or 5 Swordsman race boats (none being Ford supported I think). One definitely had a painted deck (pale blue) but the superstructure was a bespoke design as only the hull was supplied by Fairey. There was another race boat designed by Fairey but with a different superstructure and two which looked pretty standard.
I can't find any good/clear pictures but of the standard ones there is one called Sou Too which looks as though it has a planked bow area and painted side decks, in a dark colour.
Chris
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Chris, Sou Too #636, a 1972 Swordsman was my Uncles boat from new. She replaced an aft cabin H31 called Sou and he did race her a few times.
He kept her moored on a mooring on the Cleddau river. My Dad and his brother used to take Sou Too and Sou before her, back to Faireys for servicing. A good run, all the way from Pembrokeshire down to the Hamble river.
I only have one picture of Sou Too and it's a very faded/discoloured one, from many years of being on the wall.
Sou was replaced before I was born and I didn't get to see her until a few years ago, whilst going into the harbour at the Isle of Wight, she was in the marina at East Cowes.
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Hi Will
Great that you have some family history with a couple of Faireys' finest. Your uncle must have ben pretty well off.
Your photos of Sou Too are better than the one I found and the third one down would suggest that the whole of the deck is planked rather than painted as in my photo.
All good stuff.
We had a cruiser in the family some years ago which we had moored at a house on the Avon, near Pershore, which I used to take down onto the Severn - happy days. Unfortunately we sold them when my father died. Wish we'd still got them now that I've retired.
A sister and brother have narrow boats but they aren't really my cup of tea.
Chris
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Chris,
My Uncle has a couple of garages, Renault dealerships back in the 60's and 70's, so I guess he was doing ok for himself, being able to buy two new Faireys.
Sou Too has since been renamed, Slipstream of Beulieu I believe she is called now.
The deck does appear to be varnished planks rather than painted. I guess the race boats were painted for extra protection and ease of upkeep, where as Sou Too, was still used mainly for pleasure and occasionally raced, so a varnished deck would be more in keeping.
Apparently, Sout Too was quite noisy apparently (I was only 2 when he bought her and don't remember)and had straight through exhausts. My Dad says she sounded lovely as the revs climbed, the turbos spooled up as she accelerated up onto the plane.
I wish I had been a little older and could remember her.
Apparently the self steering/autopilot used to keep me amused. My parents would sit me at the helm and I would watch the wheel turn all by itself, with no human input.
Will
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Hi Will
I should say he was doing Ok for himself! Faireys were very expensive in those days, you could buy a nice house for the same outlay!
Yes, there were basically two types of race boats, those specifically prepared for racing like the Ford backed boats and certainly for the Huntsman 31 Sport race boats having an extra layer in the hull construction for extra strength and then there's the boats bought primarily for pleasure and used for the occasional race and therefore having varnished decks.
Chris
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Thanks for sharing your family pictures with us Will - it must have been nice to have some close wealthy family members who were able to give you some posh powerboat rides when you were younger, and to leave you with some fond memories that you will be able to treasure forever.
Seeing your uncles Huntsman (still with its same original name) when on a trip to the Isle of Wight must have been an exciting find, and knowing that the current name of Sou Too is now "Slipstream of Beulieu" will allow you to keep track of the Swordsman in the future too!
I think you should add a Swordsman to your model boat collection to replicate your family fleet in miniature!
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Unfortunately, I don't remember either Sou or Sou Too at all. I only have stories that my parents have told me of being out on Sou Too (I wasn't even born when my Uncle had Sou :embarrassed: )
Yes, seeing Sue for the 1st time ever and for it to be for real, not a picture, was fantastic.
Sou Too, the only picture I actually own of her is the 1st, faded one. The other pictures and the ones of Sou, are internet ones.
Only recently did I learn of the name change of Sou Too. As you say, at least that gives me more chance of keeping track of her.
As you know, I have plans to build a Swordsman, so will definitely be attempting that one day, after I have done something with the ones I already have. Will definitely have the twin antenna and #636 though.
Will
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Does anyone know if the Swordsman that were raced had a fabric covered deck to give some level of grip on the painted deck surfaces?
I think this is the case (?) and I have decided to give my own Swordsman (built from a copy of the original Aerokits plan) a painted deck to replicate the colours of my first Swordsman model that I raced in the off-shore races in the 1960's.
Adding a slight texture by laminating a fine cloth (like one of the wife's petticoats) onto the deck would not be difficult (the hardest part would be getting hold of a "spare" petticoat) and would give the required effect. %)
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Hi Guys, In the 1960's/70's, before epoxy glass arrived in the model boating world, we covered decks on Suzie Q's and Cachalot's with doped on nylon,
followed by a coat of Humbrol - the go-too method of the period.
Nylon fabric of the type used by aeromodelers for covering wings on control line model aircraft etc, still used and available today,
recently bought a couple of metres from Flair Model Products (white, red, yellow, orange or blue).
Depending on how much paint was applied, the fabric weave grinned through - similar effect to what you are trying to achieve.
Todays fine weave glass cloth would give the same effect with a single light coat of epoxy rollered on,
(the stage at which you would normally add a second coat to fill the cloths weave),
lots of different weights of glass cloth available to experimentation, followed by a whiff of Halfrauds aerosol.
Paul.
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In about 1970, as a young man in my mid twenties, I began making the AeroKits, Fairey Marine, Swordsman. After a month or two, work got in the way, it remained unfinished, and I forgot all about it. About this time last year, a friend found it in his garage and suggested I might like to finish it in lockdown. After 50 years storage it looked rather sad!
A lot has changed in 50 years and It was a certainly a big learning curve. But after a year’s work I’ve just finished it.
As you will gather from the transom photograph, I live in Bournville. The Model Yacht and Boat Club is about a mile away, and has an excellent, fully restored, model boat pond. As soon as this wretched lockdown in over, LizzyB will be launched with due ceremony for the very first time.
If people are interested, I will post more information including: Motor, electronics, circuit diagram, paint and transfers, and mechanical components.
The link shows photos of my Swordsman: [size=78%]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jIU8JpIFY3tLzKOhOc6ARQVZgtiqc_DQ/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jIU8JpIFY3tLzKOhOc6ARQVZgtiqc_DQ/view)[/size][/font][/size]
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Hi Guys, In the 1960's/70's, before epoxy glass arrived in the model boating world, we covered decks on Suzie Q's and Cachalot's with doped on nylon,
followed by a coat of Humbrol - the go-too method of the period.
Nylon fabric of the type used by aeromodelers for covering wings on control line model aircraft etc, still used and available today,
recently bought a couple of metres from Flair Model Products (white, red, yellow, orange or blue).
Depending on how much paint was applied, the fabric weave grinned through - similar effect to what you are trying to achieve.
Todays fine weave glass cloth would give the same effect with a single light coat of epoxy rollered on,
(the stage at which you would normally add a second coat to fill the cloths weave),
lots of different weights of glass cloth available to experimentation, followed by a whiff of Halfrauds aerosol.
Paul.
Hi Paul,
I remember those days of trying to find thin silk cloth (or more probably cheap synthetic "nylon" copies) to use with dope to cover The Nobbler and other such control line stunt aircraft with!
When I built my first Suzie Q my pal built the Catchalot so we had both of those two classic Vic Smeed designs running together in our club (along with the Piranha) at the time and the cloth covering method we used then is what gave me the idea of replicating the "non-slip" deck covering on my Swordsman.
The only use we had for glass fibre in those days was for strengthening the inside of the hull with chopped glass mat and for making repairs that we could then "fine finish" with Plastic Padding before the final rubbing down prior to painting.
Humbrol enamel paint was the only way to go back then (some rebels discovered Japlac)......along with a modelling paintbrush that was far too small for the job and took ages to finish!
Happy days!
Bob.
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In about 1970, as a young man in my mid twenties, I began making the AeroKits, Fairey Marine, Swordsman. After a month or two, work got in the way, it remained unfinished, and I forgot all about it. About this time last year, a friend found it in his garage and suggested I might like to finish it in lockdown. After 50 years storage it looked rather sad!
A lot has changed in 50 years and It was a certainly a big learning curve. But after a year’s work I’ve just finished it.
As you will gather from the transom photograph, I live in Bournville. The Model Yacht and Boat Club is about a mile away, and has an excellent, fully restored, model boat pond. As soon as this wretched lockdown in over, LizzyB will be launched with due ceremony for the very first time.
If people are interested, I will post more information including: Motor, electronics, circuit diagram, paint and transfers, and mechanical components.
The link shows photos of my Swordsman: [size=78%]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jIU8JpIFY3tLzKOhOc6ARQVZgtiqc_DQ/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jIU8JpIFY3tLzKOhOc6ARQVZgtiqc_DQ/view)[/size]
That is a really nice story (and a good looking Aerokits Swordsman) - thanks for sharing it with us!
All of the extra info you mention would be good to read too!
Bob.
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That is a really nice story (and a good looking Aerokits Swordsman) - thanks for sharing it with us!
All of the extra info you mention would be good to read too!
Bob.
Hello Bob
[/size]
[/size]That was my very first message on Model Boat Mayhem, and you were the very first to reply - thank you for those kind words. I will post some detailed information in the next couple of days, including: Motor, electronics, circuit diagram, paint and transfers, and mechanical components. [/size]
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Here’s another “yes please” from me. Having only joined this forum a few months ago, I have found such a wealth of useful information, great pictures and helpful posters. I’m a Lesro fan and am fast being turned to Faireys having read about and seen them on here.
Your Swordsman looks so good, especially when looking at the state it was in to start with. I haven’t seen the sort of electronics that you have included before but would always be interested to read about them.
From memory the first 10 posts take a while with all the questions to make sure you are really keen to stay with it, but after that it’s much easier.
Interested to know what you used for the windscreen material. And how you created that subtle Arrow style rubbing strip.....
Welcome!
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Several people have asked me to provide more in formation on LizzyB, Swordsman, so here it is, including: Motor, electronics, circuit diagram, paint and transfers, and mechanical components:
The circuit diagram shows the various electronic modules and their specification, so no need to list them again. The high current wiring is red and black as usual, and so is the lamp wiring. Signal wiring colours are R = red, B = Black, W = white, and Br = brown. These colours vary between manufacturers.
Futaba radio TX T2HR, RX R202GF, 2.4GHz FHSS 2HR, and servo is a Futaba S3003.
Motor coupling: CNC5 Kali coupling M8 thread to 5mm plain plus a home-made M8 to M4 adaptor - Prestwich Model Boats. Note: Huco type couplings are rated up to 1000rpm, and there are reports of breakages penetrating hulls! The CNC5 coupling has a considerably higher capacity both torque and revs. - probably in excess of 20,000rpm.
Motor has a home-made water-cooled mount.
ESC brushless speed control - ZTW Shark Marine 70A with BEC and water cooled.
Windscreen - 2mm polycarbonate. Very tough, but can be bent cold. Much stranger than Perspex. Central support, aluminium. Hame made.
Navigation lights - red, green, and white 12V, 20mA LED. Instrumentation lamps - 12V, 20mA LED.
Motor isolation switch (normally used on motor bike). 60V DC, 100A continuous current, max current 300A
All fixings - stainless steel
Current propeller - 2 blade, X series, G.F. M4, 45mm diameter. Depending on pond trials, I also have 40mm and 50mm diameter.
Paintwork - All paint solvent based. Inside - I coat primer and one coat white under coat. Outside - One coat primer, one coat white undercoat, one coat gloss finishing - white for hull and cabin roofs. Ultramarine blue - transom and cabin sides. Paint by Johnstons Decorating Centre.
Deck finish - LF Teak Stain, one part stain to three parts thinners. Then, four coats of Ronseal Gloss Yacht Varnish.
Transfers - Transom lettering and logo - medium yellow, plotter cut vinyl. Cabin sides Swordsman logo - white on transparent backing. Designed by me and supplied by Stickers International.
General - I'm not one for sticking sticky to scale. For example: I decided not to fit an eye-pocking-out mast. I have not fitted hand rails to the cabin roof or around the deck, because they easily get broken. And i have purposely not fitted a pretend steering wheel, but just fitted a motor isolator switch, indicator lamps to show the state of the electronics, and an audio visual alarm for when the battery starts to go low.
That's about all I can think of at the moment. No doubt more things will come to mind. Please let me know if there is anything else I can tell you about LizzyB.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Sorry but just to say 1,000rpm is a little unfair of a huco coupling. Many of us use them ansolutely fine up to 8-10,000 rpm (ish) absolutely fine. I've never heard one breaking a hull at 1,000 -they wouldn't be much use!
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Thanks for the extra information Fuse Wire.
I really like the oblong rear window frame on the rear side of the hull - sadly window frames of this shape are no longer commercially available. Did you make yours, or were you lucky enough to have bought one when they were still made?
I see on your wiring diagram that you are using a Tornado 4260 -500KV out-runner and that you are useing a 4mm prop shaft. Let us know how well it goes when you have had a chance to run it.
Stay safe!
Bob.
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Here’s another “yes please” from me. Having only joined this forum a few months ago, I have found such a wealth of useful information, great pictures and helpful posters. I’m a Lesro fan and am fast being turned to Faireys having read about and seen them on here.
Your Swordsman looks so good, especially when looking at the state it was in to start with. I haven’t seen the sort of electronics that you have included before but would always be interested to read about them.
From memory the first 10 posts take a while with all the questions to make sure you are really keen to stay with it, but after that it’s much easier.
Interested to know what you used for the windscreen material. And how you created that subtle Arrow style rubbing strip.....
Welcome!
Hello Stuw
You asked me how to make the Arrow Style Rubbing strip. I looked a a lot of picture of real Swordsman to get the shape and size right. Then I made a brass template of the feather end and one of the pointed end. Then i used the templates to make two of each in wood, leaving a a short straight length. I tapered the straight length. Then I made two strips of parallel wood - the section in the middle, I taped the end so they matched the tapers of the feather ends and pointed ends, and glued them together.
I marked the position on the hull (you don't want wobbly strips!), and I glue them in place with the help of dressmaking pins.
It's a bit tricky, but easier than making and fitting splash rails.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Thanks for the extra information Fuse Wire.
I really like the oblong rear window frame on the rear side of the hull - sadly window frames of this shape are no longer commercially available. Did you make yours, or were you lucky enough to have bought one when they were still made?
I see on your wiring diagram that you are using a Tornado 4260 -500KV out-runner and that you are useing a 4mm prop shaft. Let us know how well it goes when you have had a chance to run it.
Stay safe!
Bob.
Hello Bob
I made the rear window frame, and yes, they are glazed. I may put lights in the rear cockpit.
I have no idea if the motor will be ok. I read a post (may have been Mayham) that someone was using them successfully in larger boats and that it was his motor of choice. I rather liked the idea of relatively high power 900W and low speed 500KV (presumably high torque). It is an outrunner. Seems a bit silly to go for high revs and then have to introduce a gearbox to get the torque.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Thanks Fuse Wire. It looks a very tidy setup. If I may ask some more brief questions?
1. What is the vertical “tube” at the end of the Rx aerial in the rear compartment?
2. I’m assuming the rudder is aligned in the photo but the control rod and linkages are offset from a 90 degree position. Is there a reason this is done that gives benefit?
3. Is the paint brushed or sprayed? Finish looks great.
Apologies to all if these are obvious questions.
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Thanks Fuse Wire. It looks a very tidy setup. If I may ask some more brief questions?
1. What is the vertical “tube” at the end of the Rx aerial in the rear compartment?
2. I’m assuming the rudder is aligned in the photo but the control rod and linkages are offset from a 90 degree position. Is there a reason this is done that gives benefit?
3. Is the paint brushed or sprayed? Finish looks great.
Apologies to all if these are obvious questions.
Hello Stuw
1 There are two bits of red wire covering, one at each end of the active end of the aerial. These serve merely to hold the active end of the aerial (last 28.8mm) in place in the white wooden block stuck to the bulkhead. The receiver and aerial are place away from electrically noisy components, like the motor and ESC. The aerial is mounted vertically and above the waterline to maximise the Tx, Rx range. See attached: OpenTX University - Introduction to Antennas.
2 The rudder is shown positioned straight, and the servo is shown positioned in the mid position with the Tx stick vertical. The rudder tiller arm and servo arm arm are parallel,l so that at the extreme left and right of the TX stick the rudder moves equal angles left and right (well, nearly). Actually, the servo arm is a bit shorter than the tiller, to make the rudder turn an optimum maximum of +/-33 degrees. The turning symmetry and rudder sensitivity can of course be adjusted on the Tx. Actually, I would have preferred to have mounted the servo further from the rudder pivot, making the four bar chain linkage response more ideal. However, in practice, I don't think it will make a scrap of difference. So, in answer to you question: The layout is merely due to space restrictions.
3 Re: painting: You have just payed me the greatest complement! Ever since I was a little boy of 6 or 7 (some 70 years ago!), I have always been totally dissatisfied by my finish - and, frankly, I still am. The paint, staining, and varnishing of LizzyB are all brushed. The secret is of course in the preparation, clean bushes and paint, and allowing plenty of time. I always vacuum off any dust, and I have recently discovered 'Tack Cloth', which helps. I delighted to say we are about to become grandparents for the first time. So, making a rocking horse is priority, rather than model boats. I'm hoping this will be my great opportunity to persuade my wife - I just cannot live with out a a compressor and spray outfit any longer.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
http://open-txu.org/home/continuing-education/introduction-to-antennas/
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Fuse Wire:
Thanks for all that. I am probably the only one, but hadn’t realised the importance of parallel aerials. No problem so far as I haven’t controlled a model yet (long story but very slow Lesro Javelin restoration on another thread).
I’ve gone for a rattle can metallic planned paint scheme for first Javelin but may consider brush for others!
Bob:
Regarding the oval shaped window frame, I’ve trawled the web and come up with oval brass eyelets that might do the trick but probably not the right size/profile? There are many different colours/sizes/quality available.
For example - [size=78%]https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202145757879 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202145757879)[/size]
Most seem to come in bags of 50 though!!
Edited: to remove my attempt at a joke! Although too late you’ve quoted me..
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Bob:
Regarding the oval shaped window frame, I’ve trawled the web and come up with oval brass eyelets that might do the trick but probably not the right size/profile? There are many different colours/sizes/quality available.
For example - [size=78%]https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202145757879 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202145757879)[/size]
Most seem to come in bags of 50 though!!
I will check my Swordsman plans and see if there is a size close enough to use.
Being made of brass they have some "potential".
Thanks for the link Stuw.
Bob.
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Fuse Wire:
Thanks for all that. I could of course undo my praise by saying it’s the low res pictures that make the finish look good! (Seriously only joking!)
Bob:
Regarding the oval shaped window frame, I’ve trawled the web and come up with oval brass eyelets that might do the trick but probably not the right size/profile? There are many different colours/sizes/quality available.
For example - [size=78%]https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202145757879 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202145757879)[/size]
Most seem to come in bags of 50 though!!
How interesting. Didn't know such things existed. I definitely prefer to buy things rather than having to make them.
You're right - Low res. pictures hide a multitude of sins....
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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I will check my Swordsman plans and see if there is a size close enough to use.
Being made of brass they have some "potential".
Thanks for the link Stuw.
Bob.
Once you know the sort of size you need, I don’t mind helping to search. There are many many options out there..
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How interesting. Didn't know such things existed. I definitely prefer to buy things rather than having to make them.
You're right - Low res. pictures hide a multitude of sins....
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
I’ve edited my post to remove my jest in case it wasn’t taken the right way! Also added a bit about my lack of knowledge on Tx and Rx orientation so thanks for that link!
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I’ve edited my post to remove my jest in case it wasn’t taken the right way! Also added a bit about my lack of knowledge on Tx and Rx orientation so thanks for that link!
Hello Stuw
I certainly wasn't offended by your jest.
On the orientation of Tx and Rx antenna, a lot of modellers have reported that it makes no difference, and that may be so in their case. On the other hand, if one is looking for the optimum performance, I prefer to look to the scientific evidence.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Once you know the sort of size you need, I don’t mind helping to search. There are many many options out there..
Checking the Phill Connolly plans the dimensions for the rear hull side window is approximately 32mm long x 15mm high including the 2mm window frame width.
Checking the same window from an Aerokits plan that I have here (in an original kit - not a copy plan) the same overall measurements are 30mm wide x 14.5mm high with no window frame shown on the drawing.
Basically they are near enough the same as each other so we are looking for something about 30mm long by 15mm high.
Most of the eyelets that I have seen are not very tall in height, but if there is anything close, I am sure it could be used.
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Indeed so far I’ve only found about 30-33mm wide and internal height about 6-7mm. When adding the rim you get about 11mm top to bottom but not quite the right thing?
I also googled “oval loop ring” and found these which obviously have a circular cross section so probably not the right look. Similar sort of sizing. Many options from many suppliers in different countries. Just for an example:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264964405671?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%3D6e6e55756b7d49bf97a27d94ca402825%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D264964377548%26itm%3D264964405671%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264964405671?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%3D6e6e55756b7d49bf97a27d94ca402825%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D264964377548%26itm%3D264964405671%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1)
I thought of eyelets because I had been thinking of alternatives to dashboard dial surrounds when I noticed some in the shed!
I’ve just thought of oval metal tube for wardrobes which fits the sort of size but wall thickness only about 1 mm and you’d only want a sliver off the end:
https://www.diydirect.com/oval-wardrobe-rails-chromed-15mm-x-30mm-x-1220mm-4-foot?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsciLzrG18AIVavx3Ch27pQt7EAQYCSABEgIEbfD_BwE (https://www.diydirect.com/oval-wardrobe-rails-chromed-15mm-x-30mm-x-1220mm-4-foot?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsciLzrG18AIVavx3Ch27pQt7EAQYCSABEgIEbfD_BwE)
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Indeed so far I’ve only found about 30-33mm wide and internal height about 6-7mm. When adding the rim you get about 11mm top to bottom but not quite the right thing?
I also googled “oval loop ring” and found these which obviously have a circular cross section so probably not the right look. Similar sort of sizing. Many options from many suppliers in different countries. Just for an example:
I thought of eyelets because I had been thinking of alternatives to dashboard dial surrounds when I noticed some in the shed!
Not to worry - we have the choice of either running our Swordsman without this small hull side window (as most do) or making our own frames from whatever material works best.
ABS plastic would be easy to cut and thin ply skins would do it too, alloy would look nice but it is probably the hardest of the options to cut to shape.
I used to know several people who would cnc alloy parts out for me when I was still working, if I still have their numbers I will see if I can arrange something.
As usual, making the programme is the time consuming bit, but "spitting out" small basic shapes like these should be quick and easy and can be really inexpensive as long as "large numbers" are needed because the programming cost is usually amatised (programme cost divided by the number of components and costed per item + machine time + material cost).
Getting the programme done as a 'favour" might be the best option as we are unlikely to need thousands of them!
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Indeed. Got a bit carried away trying to source something in metal when a styrene frame painted would be simpler for me!
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Indeed. Got a bit carried away trying to source something in metal when a styrene frame painted would be simpler for me!
...........and me O0
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Indeed. Got a bit carried away trying to source something in metal when a styrene frame painted would be simpler for me!
Hello Stuw
I'm afraid my frames are 1.5mm thick aluminium alloy, but it's pretty easy to shape.
Mine is the 33 inch long AeroKits Swordsman. I bought the kit in about 1970 and it cost £5.95.
The plan that came with the kit did not show the rear cabin windows, so I scaled them off pictures of real Swordsman.
Here are the drawings of what I made, and the fixing position relative to the corner of the transom. The decorative arrow (not shown) is central on the windows.
The frames are held on with M2 domed head, hex, stainless steel screws. Once you have screwed them on you can cut out the wood using them as template. The glazings are just rectangles of polycarbonate fitted to the inside of the cabin.
I used a filing button 16mm dia, 4mm small dia to make the curved ends neat.
As I mentioned, I may put a light in the cabin. I think Bournville Model Boat club has an evening regatta, where the boats are illuminated.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Thanks for the extra information Fuse Wire.
I really like the oblong rear window frame on the rear side of the hull - sadly window frames of this shape are no longer commercially available. Did you make yours, or were you lucky enough to have bought one when they were still made?
I see on your wiring diagram that you are using a Tornado 4260 -500KV out-runner and that you are useing a 4mm prop shaft. Let us know how well it goes when you have had a chance to run it.
Stay safe!
Bob.
Hello Bob
You asked me about the Tornado 4260 - 500KV out-runner: This is the reference I was thinking about, and the main reason why I fitted that motor to my 33 inch Swordsman. I have asked 'flack' for more details, and if he did in fact run it in a 46 inch Sea Queen. But the post is about four years old and I have not had a reply yet.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Thanks for the extra information Fuse Wire.
I really like the oblong rear window frame on the rear side of the hull - sadly window frames of this shape are no longer commercially available. Did you make yours, or were you lucky enough to have bought one when they were still made?
I see on your wiring diagram that you are using a Tornado 4260 -500KV out-runner and that you are useing a 4mm prop shaft. Let us know how well it goes when you have had a chance to run it.
Stay safe!
Bob.
Hello Bob
In my reply regarding the Tornado 4260 - 500KV motor I forgot to add the Link, so here it is:
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=58719.0
I have messaged Flack and asked if he ran it in a 46 inch Sea Queen. I have not had a reply, but the the post was four years old.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Don't worry too much about the motor info regarding how it performed in a Sea Queen as it may not be very much comparative help to you in any case.
The same motor may perform in a very different way in a different size and type of boat, and some owners who would be really happy to cruise around at a decent scale speed may have a very different expectation to someone why wants the highest possible performance who is happy with short run times between charges etc.
I am happy to cruise around at a scale speed with my TID tug knowing that it will run all day on a 6 volt dry battery or with a slightly improved speed for most of the day if I changed to a 12 volt dry battery.
This same performance would not impress me at all in a Swordsman as I would be looking for a performance superior to what my 10cc Merco 61 TwinPlug ic motor delivered in my last Aerokits Swordsman back in the 1960's as I like my powerboats to make some "white water" and deliver a good turn of speed.
When we have a few of us running our 1/12 scale Swordsman it would be interesting to compare our findings with our different brushless motor, ESC, propeller type and LiPo choices.
Stay safe - and enjoy your weekend!
Bob.
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Don't worry too much about the motor info regarding how it performed in a Sea Queen as it may not be very much comparative help to you in any case.
The same motor may perform in a very different way in a different size and type of boat, and some owners who would be really happy to cruise around at a decent scale speed may have a very different expectation to someone why wants the highest possible performance who is happy with short run times between charges etc.
I am happy to cruise around at a scale speed with my TID tug knowing that it will run all day on a 6 volt dry battery or with a slightly improved speed for most of the day if I changed to a 12 volt dry battery.
This same performance would not impress me at all in a Swordsman as I would be looking for a performance superior to what my 10cc Merco 61 TwinPlug ic motor delivered in my last Aerokits Swordsman back in the 1960's as I like my powerboats to make some "white water" and deliver a good turn of speed.
When we have a few of us running our 1/12 scale Swordsman it would be interesting to compare our findings with our different brushless motor, ESC, propeller type and LiPo choices.
Stay safe - and enjoy your weekend!
Bob.
Hello Bob
You're absolutely right. Lets see how various motors perform. I've got a laser tachometer and voltage/current data recorders in my Swordsman. I don't have torque or speed sensors. I can't find cheap ones, so if anyone has any suggestions let us know.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Thanks for the detail on that window. I too would be I interested in performance of your motor setup, especially as you have a tachometer installed.
kV (and associated rpm based on volts provided) and prop size are the variables as I understand it. So a 500kV on 3S will have lower rpm than a 1900kV for example but “could” take a larger prop potentially without overheating versus the higher rpm motor?
Sorry not wanting to digress but I’m still intrigued by the various kV options. I’ve got a 1900kV motor which I haven’t used yet but I’m planning 2S as rpm could be excessive otherwise. My prop will start small to avoid trashing everything!
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Thanks for the detail on that window. I too would be I interested in performance of your motor setup, especially as you have a tachometer installed.
kV (and associated rpm based on volts provided) and prop size are the variables as I understand it. So a 500kV on 3S will have lower rpm than a 1900kV for example but “could” take a larger prop potentially without overheating versus the higher rpm motor?
Sorry not wanting to digress but I’m still intrigued by the various kV options. I’ve got a 1900kV motor which I haven’t used yet but I’m planning 2S as rpm could be excessive otherwise. My prop will start small to avoid trashing everything!
Hello Stuw
The tachometer cost the princely sum of £8.99. The laser points to a white patch stuck on the back of the motor casing (outrunner). The tachometer is held in place with Velcro. If you hold down the TEST button it will remember: Lowest Revs, Max Revs, and Last Revs. When you press MEM Button, it will display the aforementioned values. You can keep the TEST Button held down with Velcro while the boat is on the water. it seems to work ok, but because of lockdown LizzyB has not been on the water yet.
Here's the ebay link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383733541209 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383733541209)
I only came across the unit of KV last year, after a 50 years break from making model boats, and was totally confused (still am to some extent). I though it had something to do with Kilovolts - it doesn't! As I understand: The KV motor rating is the speed of the motor in thousands of revs perm minute, with out any load applied, per volt of the battery voltage. So in my case, with a 500KV motor and 3S Lipos (12 volts approx), the free load speed is 500 x 12 = 6000rpm, and that's what I actually measure with my tachometer.
Long, long, before brushless motors were invented, I studied Applied Thermodynamics mainly in relation to ic engines. The performance of the engine was invariably shown on graphs such as torque against rpm, BHP against rpm, and so on. I have NEVER seen such a graph for a brushless motor. We can find the maximum off-load rpm (in my case 6000rpm), and are often given the maximum power (in my case 900W), but we are not told at what speed the maximum power is produced, or if the power is the input electrical power or output mechanical power. So if anyone can point me to a simple history of this strange new unit, the KV and absence of power/speed curves - I'm all ears...
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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Hello Stuw
The tachometer cost the princely sum of £8.99. The laser points to a white patch stuck on the back of the motor casing (outrunner). The tachometer is held in place with Velcro. If you hold down the TEST button it will remember: Lowest Revs, Max Revs, and Last Revs. When you press MEM Button, it will display the aforementioned values. You can keep the TEST Button held down with Velcro while the boat is on the water. it seems to work ok, but because of lockdown LizzyB has not been on the water yet.
Here's the ebay link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383733541209 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383733541209)
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
Sadly these are no longer available - I just tried to buy one!
It looks like the same thing is still being sold by other sellers a higher prices!
Bob.
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Sadly these are no longer available - I just tried to buy one!
It looks like the same thing is still being sold by other sellers a higher prices!
Bob.
Hello Bob
That's a shame. I'm sure they are all very similar. I'd still pay £10 or £12 - even a bit more. I'd just go with a UK supplier with a decent rating.
Kind regards - Fuse Wire
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I just bought one on eBay for £9.49 from "toolworld-uk"
.......and it is being delivered from Guangzhou China.
...with an estimated delivery between Wednesday 26 May and Friday 9 Jul. >>:-(
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I saw another unfinished Aerokits Swordsman for sale the other day and thought that it may like a new home with some fellow Fairey craft %)
The plan is to get this one finished and on the water as soon as possible without spending too much time on adding details that I wont be able to see when it is out on the water giving me some fun !
A plain painted finish is planned with no added planking, so I guess it could look like one of the racing Swordsman craft? I will see if I can find any pictures of a "racing Swordsman" but if not I will just paint it with whatever colours I have available.
I have a spare alloy water cooled mount and a suitable motor so as long as the shaft is an M5 it will not take too long to fit it out and get it painted, but if it has an M4 shaft I would like get that changed to an M5 so I don't have to go back to it at a later date.
Lets hope it has been put together OK and will not need too much (none would be nice) restorative work to get it finished and working reasonably quickly.
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Well done Bob, good to see another one being saved, finished off and then enjoyed.
Yours looks very tidy from what I could see in the pictures.
Looking forward to seeing your progress on this one.
Will
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As Bob invited me to share my Swordsman in this thread, here it is as bought.
As you can see, it needs a fair bit of work, but it will get done and back on the water.
Like all of my boats are going to be, it will be converted to brushless. But as it's in a 'bit of a queue' of projects %) it may be a while before I make a start on it.
Will
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That looks like a complete strip-down job Will - take plenty photos when you get started on it and maybe start a new thread when you do...
These refurbishments seem to take longer than a new build - kit or scratchbuilds - good luck with it anyway. :-))
Ray.
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Thanks Ray.
The hull seems pretty good to be fair, no soft spots or anything like that(that I've found). So full strip down, I don't know if I'll go that far or not. Time will tell when I start to delve into it. But for now, it can gather dust with the others and await it's turn.
I can however well believe that these resto projects take up much more time than working with nice new, solid, clean materials.
I have Lesro Rapier and Javelin kits that have never been started to build one day, plus a Fairey Huntress too, so I have those to look forward to tackling one day as my first kit builds.
Will
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more pics
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Hi madwelshman
It has taken me a week to strip, remove nails, fill and sand under my new/old boat !!!
Canabus
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That looks like a complete strip-down job Will - take plenty photos when you get started on it and maybe start a new thread when you do...
These refurbishments seem to take longer than a new build - kit or scratchbuilds - good luck with it anyway. :-))
Ray.
I hope you don't fit the windscreen on backwards (as shown in your first picture) - but it would be handy if you intend going backwards a lot {-)
Thanks for adding your Aerokits Swordsman to this thread Will - it could help to expand it into a very useful reference for Aerokits Swordsman models, as when we build and restore ours we should (between us) cover just about everything!
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I'd add mine as well, but it's not an Aerokits! {-)
It does have some DNA though as I did use the drawing as a basis.
Chris
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I'd add mine as well, but it's not an Aerokits! {-)
It does have some DNA though as I did use the drawing as a basis.
Chris
Yours is a 1/12 scale Swordsman that is based on the Aerokits Swordsman drawings. The Swordsman that I am building from scratch was based on the Aerokits Swordsman too - so I guess they both share the same DNA?
Both look remarkably like an Aerokits Swordsman and share exactly the same profiles. :-))
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Yeah, pretty close Bob, though I did change the shape of the coamings where they meet the deck to suit the raised rear cabin.
Chris