Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Radio Equipment => Topic started by: frogman3 on August 22, 2020, 07:02:23 PM

Title: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 22, 2020, 07:02:23 PM
HELP can anyone help me as to whether there is a failsafe unit for 2.4 gig R/C as my ship ran away out of control an i have a failsafe unit fitted but ive found iT doesn't work with 2.4 gig R/C as it was on my 40 meg R/C SET so can anyone HELP ME ?
CHRIS
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: barriew on August 22, 2020, 07:28:04 PM
It depends on the make of the Tx.


Barrie
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 22, 2020, 07:39:59 PM
It depends on the make of the Tx.


Barrie


HI Barrie the TX is a  FUTABA  6 CHANNEL T6L  SPORT 2.4 GIG
CRIS
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: Shipmate60 on August 22, 2020, 07:56:34 PM
What radio set is it?


Bob
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: malcolmfrary on August 22, 2020, 07:58:53 PM
Just done a bench test using a Saturn with a Marine Viper 25.
Switch on the usual way, set for forward running, switch off transmitter.  The motor immediately stopped, but started again on switching the transmitter back on.  The rudder, hard over, stayed put, but restored to dead ahead on switching the transmitter back on as the stick had centered when I Let go to switch back on again.


Pre-2G4 radios losing signal would generally stop giving an output.  This would (depending on ESC) stop the ESC, but leave any servo in whatever state it was when the signal went.  A fail safe would generally drive a throttle servo to idle or stop.
2G4 radios might work differently, each make, and a lot of models within the make, will respond differently, and might well have a setting that convinces your "fail safe" circuit that all is well.  A long, careful read of the instructions might help find out if this is the case.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: malcolmfrary on August 22, 2020, 08:00:44 PM
Copied across from the other thread -

Just done a bench test using a Saturn with a Marine Viper 25.
Switch on the usual way, set for forward running, switch off transmitter.  The motor immediately stopped, but started again on switching the transmitter back on.  The rudder, hard over, stayed put, but restored to dead ahead on switching the transmitter back on as the stick had centered when I l
et go to switch back on again.




Pre-2G4 radios losing signal would generally stop giving an output.  This would (depending on ESC) stop the ESC, but leave any servo in whatever state it was when the signal went.  A fail safe would generally drive a throttle servo to idle or stop.
2G4 radios might work differently, each make, and a lot of models within the make, will respond differently, and might well have a setting that convinces your "fail safe" circuit that all is well.  A long, careful read of the instructions might help find out if this is the case.
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: frogman3 on August 22, 2020, 08:03:50 PM
What radio set is it?


Bob


HI Bob  the tx is a futaba T6L SPORT 6CHANNEL 2.4 GIG
CRIS
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on August 22, 2020, 08:59:02 PM
http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf (http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf)


Page 13 indicates that the failsafe is set at transmitter power up, and is set at whatever position the ratchet LH stick is in at that point. The manual shows the normal position for a powered aircraft, but you would need to ensure that on power up your stick is in the neutral position instead ( halfway point between up and down ). Failsafe only available on Ch3.
Try it and see what happens.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: RST on August 22, 2020, 09:56:59 PM
I was going to say, it's been so long since I ran a nitro engine -the little in-line capacitor unit / box of tricks wouldn't know whether it was 27, 40MHz or 2.4Ghz, it was just plugged mid-line and would just recognise when a Tx signal was lost via the Rx and just returning that servo to (or close) to neutral.  I thought 2.4Ghz was supposed to eliminate all that, ESC's normally don't need it anyway?
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: frogman3 on August 22, 2020, 09:59:07 PM
http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf (http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf)


Page 13 indicates that the failsafe is set at transmitter power up, and is set at whatever position the ratchet LH stick is in at that point. The manual shows the normal position for a powered aircraft, but you would need to ensure that on power up your stick is in the neutral position instead ( halfway point between up and down ). Failsafe only available on Ch3.
Try it and see what happens.


OK MANY THANKS I'LL HAVE A GO CHEERS
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: C-3PO on August 23, 2020, 12:38:35 AM
Futaba Manual states on page 13 - My take if you follow the pic below at power on for a model boat you will have selected full reverse as a fail safe setting with a ESC capable of forward & reverse - unless of course you have the channel reversed  {-)

http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf (http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf)

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/22/failsafe.png)

C-3PO
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: RST on August 23, 2020, 12:44:34 AM
OP suggests they have a failsafe fitted anyway -doesnt say the circumstances though so it's a bit of a mixed message?  I only have one 2.4Ghz set and if signal is lost it switches off also, or tends to but OP says failsafe fitted anyway?
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: justboatonic on August 23, 2020, 12:45:02 AM
LOL, was just about to post that!
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: RST on August 23, 2020, 12:53:36 AM
LOL, was just about to post that!


Have found very little need for them, except for a very brief spell running nitro powered engines where I thought it a must in throttle. Might not be the same circumstance though.....
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: malcolmfrary on August 23, 2020, 08:29:25 AM
It might be a good idea for these two threads to be combined to save duplication.
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: frogman3 on August 24, 2020, 06:16:50 PM
http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf (http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf)


Page 13 indicates that the failsafe is set at transmitter power up, and is set at whatever position the ratchet LH stick is in at that point. The manual shows the normal position for a powered aircraft, but you would need to ensure that on power up your stick is in the neutral position instead ( halfway point between up and down ). Failsafe only available on Ch3.
Try it and see what happens.


HI Thanks for the info an yes it does say that in my instuctions booklet an i treid it an it worked a few times but not all the time so its unreliabable so what now ?
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 24, 2020, 06:36:34 PM
It might be a good idea for these two threads to be combined to save duplication.
YES i aggree
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 24, 2020, 06:39:19 PM
Futaba Manual states on page 13 - My take if you follow the pic below at power on for a model boat you will have selected full reverse as a fail safe setting with a ESC capable of forward & reverse - unless of course you have the channel reversed  {-)

http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf (http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf)

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/22/failsafe.png)

C-3PO


HI C-3PO well i treid it an an like you say in op booklet but it only works now an again so its not trustworthy
chris
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on August 24, 2020, 09:10:01 PM
This might be down to the left stick being a ratchet type, so never in the same place twice on start up. I am not sure how you tested it but if you were cycling the on/off switch up and down to see if it failsafed, that may have thrown it out. An alternative might be trying to figure out why it ran away in the first place, this is a pretty uncommon occurrence with 2.4G and probably more so with a decent brand of radio.
What actually happened when the model went out of control and what other kit is in the model?


Title: Re: HELP
Post by: frogman3 on August 25, 2020, 09:08:30 AM
This might be down to the left stick being a ratchet type, so never in the same place twice on start up. I am not sure how you tested it but if you were cycling the on/off switch up and down to see if it failsafed, that may have thrown it out. An alternative might be trying to figure out why it ran away in the first place, this is a pretty uncommon occurrence with 2.4G and probably more so with a decent brand of radio.
What actually happened when the model went out of control and what other kit is in the model?
 


HI   so does this 2.4 gig  failsafe  need to be set up every time i switch on ? as i thought once its set by the makers its set so if  the R/X  louses signal the failsafe just cuts in an cuts off power to the motors like it does on 40 meg as that one works fine.


 An how i tested it was just turn off the T/X power so the green led on the R/X went from green to red an like i said it worked  a couple of times by cuttin the power to the motors so they were just tickin over an then when i restored power by switchin the T/X back on the motors came back up to their previous power settin so it failsafed dint it ?


  but when i treid again after a little while of lettin the motors run for a few minutes no joy the motors just kept running at that set speed before i treid. An as for why it ran away in the first place i have no idea as  before this she had been sailin ok for 10mins or more the T/X batts were ok as the red led in the T/X was blindin bright as they are duracell batts fitted so i dont think it was a poor T/X signal.


An  what other kit fitted in her well i must admit its a quite a complex model eg. voltage reducer fitted down to 6v for the units that need it an a smoke unit that has the power increased to  24 v ,an radar motor, an whooper an fog horn sound units an hangar bay  door open an close fitted with a servo moph ,an a helicopter runnin on 6v power but all these units run off their own batt as in the model there is a two circut system an these are seperate from the main motors system as the motors  circut is just that for the motors with their own MAIN BATT an fuses an such. Thats the  best i can exsplain it an ive had this type of system used in all my big models ships they were ok when on 40 meg so it looks like i'll have to go back to 40 meg then
AN a linkpic of the model
 https://ibb.co/jWYGjDY
chris
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: C-3PO on August 25, 2020, 09:43:05 AM
 
HI   so does this 2.4 gig  failsafe  need to be set up every time i switch on ? a

Looking at the instructions the answer is yes.

With some radios you can "program/set" the fail safe and it is stored until overwritten.

It looks like the radio you are using simply takes the "stick position" each and every time at power on of the TX and uses that as the fail safe - this would not be so bad if you have a sprung throttle stick which returns to a central position and an ESC that also gets it's neutral postion on power on.

C-3PO
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on August 25, 2020, 09:44:45 AM
Reading the instructions over again, it looks like the failsafe position is set based on the stick position every time you switch on. I have a similar issue with an F14 Twinstick and a couple of sound units. They read neutral at the point of turning on the set, with the ratchets fitted, this varies just a bit each time. This has caused some problems with me trying to find the shut down positions, so tne sound units will shut up1 I have ended up opening the set up and filing slightly deeper notches on the internal ratchet at the neutral position. All I have to do now is ensure I have the sticks in the deep ratchets when I turn the set on. Your other option is to try and source a spring return kit for the throttle stick, or swap out the one on the right hand side of the set to the left. This would give you a positive failsafe position every time you turn the set on.
You still need to work out why you had a signal brownout in the first place. Check your batteries and check the spring contacts in the back of the set for corrosion.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: malcolmfrary on August 25, 2020, 10:05:19 AM
OP suggests they have a failsafe fitted anyway -doesnt say the circumstances though so it's a bit of a mixed message?  I only have one 2.4Ghz set and if signal is lost it switches off also, or tends to but OP says failsafe fitted anyway?
An extra "failsafe" circuit on a system that has its own "failsafe" built in is probably redundant.  The built in system "failsafe" will, at best, prevent the extra box from working by ensuring that there is never a "signal lost" condition coming out of the receiver.
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: frogman3 on August 25, 2020, 10:10:52 AM
HI AN THANKS GUYS C3PO  an unbuiltnautilus for your input could try what you suggest but as for [size=0px] corrosion no way ive looked there when i took out the batts to check them on a batt checker an this R/C is still nr new as i only bought it a about a yr ago  well any way will for now try an set the throttle setin right in the centre of up an down an see how i get on as i must admit this 2.4g is a big dissapointment to me as i was goin to buy a 14 channell carsons  2.4 g  R/C  for my tiger build so ive plenty of channels to work things but i think now thats on hold for now[/size][/font][/font][/size]
[size=0px]all best guys [/size][/font]
[/size][size=0px]chris[/size] <:( [/size][size=0px] [/size]
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: justboatonic on August 25, 2020, 10:32:49 AM
This radio doesnt have a 'fail safe.' It has a 'safe start up' procedure of throttle at bottom stick then switch on which Futaba have erroneously called a fail safe.
A fail safe should drive selected servos or esc to a pre determined position. This set doesnt do this.
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: JimG on August 25, 2020, 12:20:22 PM
One question that hasn't been asked yet is where do you have the receiver aerial/s mounted. ith 2.4GHz it is important to mount them above the water line, the higher the better.
Jim
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: Akira on August 25, 2020, 12:46:14 PM
After market failsafes are available and it sounds like this may be the easiest and safest way to go, in this instance. It used to be standard to add a failsafe to the throttle and the rudder servo circuits on when using the older radios. Now with new computer radios, folks take it for granted that it will be taken care of for them. Not So!.  If your radio does not offer the option of a failsafe that is not forgotten, then fit one. They fit inn line between the servo and the receiver and take no room at all and weigh nothing.
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: C-3PO on August 25, 2020, 01:01:21 PM
Many modern 2.4Ghz receivers will output a "valid" RC PWM signal in the event of loss of reception from the transmitter - the issue is the "valid" output may not be what you want which would most likely be a neutral, mid stick output (1500ms) for a ESC that has forward and reverse.

This would fool an external "fail safe" black box unless it was monitoring frame rate which tends to go AWOL with loss of signal from a transmitter or perhaps the time since the last PWM signal last changed - I have my own "fail safe" which do both but not sure commerical products work this way.

Some receivers will output your "preset" value, some just continue with the last "valid" one, some just start free running and jump all over the place


C-3PO
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: Captain Flack on August 25, 2020, 01:08:52 PM
On some makes of TX the "fail safe" is set to whatever position the throttle stick was in when it was bound. 
Obviously on a boat that should normally be  in "center" position or neutral.The problem that can be found is that, when you switch on, the radio gives you an alarm that the stick is in the center position and won't activate until you return that stick to full off, or full astern in our case.  Remember these radios are generally geared for aircraft not having a reverse.Consequently when bound you are binding at full astern, and not neutral as you perhaps thought.Ask me how I know :(( :(( :((
I don't know of a TX that sets the fail safe, every time you turn on. That is surely fraught with danger, as you won't know where you're at. :-))   You don't bind the TX/RX every time you turn on.

 
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: Akira on August 25, 2020, 02:03:34 PM
"Many modern 2.4Ghz receivers will output a "valid" RC PWM signal in the event of loss of reception from the transmitter - the issue is the "valid" output may not be what you want which would most likely be a neutral, mid stick output (1500ms) for a ESC that has forward and reverse."
Thanks for posting this. It is new to me, but then I have been a 75mhz addict for years and just moved to 2.4ghz. Fortunately my 2.4 radio allows for custom failsafe settings for all channels.
The continued output of a "valid" signal in the event of a true signal loss sounds like a plan by manufacturers to get you to buy more models...and radios. It probably isn't, but it is a problematic design. I guess that it pays to read up, carefully, before buying a radio, if you want to keep your boat, for some time that is.
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: C-3PO on August 25, 2020, 03:14:34 PM
I have been working on a project for a while - one aspect of that project would be ideal to diagnose exactly happens to the receiver output when it looses contact with the transmitter.

The initial brief was to have a "snazzy" servo tester but I extended the concept to also read the receiver output.

It uses any "WiFi" enabled browser device - e.g. smart phone, tablet etc.

Here is a sneak preview of the receiver output displayed on my iPhone screen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9C_GG0x0Fc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9C_GG0x0Fc)

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/25/servoplus.png)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9C_GG0x0Fc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9C_GG0x0Fc)

Regards
C-3PO
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: Martin [Admin] on August 25, 2020, 04:35:44 PM
 
Topics merged
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 25, 2020, 08:10:54 PM
OK THANKS GUYS looks like a bag of mixed answers  so i'll see what the chap in my model shop recomends
all best to you all
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: Bob K on August 25, 2020, 09:25:23 PM
You have to remember that such radio control is designed for aircraft.
When an aircraft loses signal the best "fail safe" option is to centre flight controls and turn the motor off.
The plane will lose altitude and hopefully come down somewhere you can recover it.

I always set fail safe to OFF for boats.  Not a lot you can do except hope someone lakeside has recovery push tug to get it back to shore.

Unless of course C-3PO can devise something very cunning  %%
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 26, 2020, 07:29:48 AM
You have to remember that such radio control is designed for aircraft.
When an aircraft loses signal the best "fail safe" option is to centre flight controls and turn the motor off.
The plane will lose altitude and hopefully come down somewhere you can recover it.

I always set fail safe to OFF for boats.  Not a lot you can do except hope someone lakeside has recovery push tug to get it back to shore.

Unless of course C-3PO can devise something very cunning  %%


HI  Bob yea it may be like that hopein somone will stop it from hittin the concrete side of the pond but im just as worried in case my ship hits an sinks someone eles model as i always take extra care when sailin to be sure i always miss others an when the guys come on with their big yachts sometimes i just dont know which way they will go as they are tackein to catch the wind but i dont want to be put off this hobby as im retired an i have no intreset  in any other hobby an its quite embarrasin if you have a nice model an then it hits the wall in front of loads of holliday makers as at time there is qiute a few all watchin the boat on the water
chris
Title: Re: HELP
Post by: frogman3 on August 26, 2020, 08:07:58 AM
One question that hasn't been asked yet is where do you have the receiver aerial/s mounted. ith 2.4GHz it is important to mount them above the water line, the higher the better.
Jim
AN HI Jim well to answer your question on where the r/x is mounted its right in the bow area mounted just under the deck under the 4.5" gun an at that point the r/x is about 4 inches above the water line so signal pick up should not be a problem
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: jaymac on August 26, 2020, 09:37:38 AM
Are you are talking about the  failsafe in the Esc  or a dedicated one. If the former is the Rx  powered via the Esc or  independent if  independent have you disconnected the Red wire ln the Rx connection.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 26, 2020, 08:13:27 PM
Are you are talking about the  failsafe in the Esc  or a dedicated one. If the former is the Rx  powered via the Esc or  independent if  independent have you disconnected the Red wire ln the Rx connection.


HI Jaymac  well if i understand you correctly the R/X is suppoce to have a F/S in built  on cha 3 an just lookin through my ESC instructions an it says if signal is lost motor stops so thats a failsafe isnt it ? an this ESC IS RATED AT 30 AMPS  but soeone eles told me to take out the red wire an i did an the ESC wont work until i reconned it AN THE ESC HAS NO BEC  so do i take out the red wire ?


cheers for your help
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: tsenecal on August 26, 2020, 09:16:07 PM
According to page 13 of the owners manual:

"The throttle position when turning on a receiver power supply will be fail-safe position.  The throttle moves to this low position in an emergency."

The illustration shows the throttle in the low position (idle for an airplane), but that just means if your boat has forward and reverse, you want the throttle centered when you turn the receiver on.

please note, the common practice is to turn on the transmitter first, then the receiver.  I have no idea what the F/S setting for the receiver would be if you turn on the receiver first, then the transmitter.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: JimG on August 26, 2020, 09:26:52 PM

HI Jaymac  well if i understand you correctly the R/X is suppoce to have a F/S in built  on cha 3 an just lookin through my ESC instructions an it says if signal is lost motor stops so thats a failsafe isnt it ? an this ESC IS RATED AT 30 AMPS  but soeone eles told me to take out the red wire an i did an the ESC wont work until i reconned it AN THE ESC HAS NO BEC  so do i take out the red wire ?


cheers for your help
chris
If the ESC doesn't have a BEC then you must keep the red wire to the receiver connected. This is providing the power to the ESC to control the output.
Jim
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 26, 2020, 09:44:11 PM
If the ESC doesn't have a BEC then you must keep the red wire to the receiver connected. This is providing the power to the ESC to control the output.
Jim


HI Jim many thanks for the info  an will leave the red wire in
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: jaymac on August 26, 2020, 11:27:39 PM
Hi Chris yes as Jim Says  leave Red in I only said  Remove if you were  feeding the Rx independently as opposed to from the Esc
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 27, 2020, 10:21:01 AM
Hi Chris yes as Jim Says  leave Red in I only said  Remove if you were  feeding the Rx independently as opposed to from the Esc


HI Jaymac yes im gonna leave in the red wire an hope that when this add on failsafe devise arrives i'll try it an see what happens as this problem is sendin me round the bend as i darein try an sail norfolk now in case she turns rouge an causes damage to others an herself but thanks to all for tryin to help me
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: Captain Flack on August 27, 2020, 11:52:33 AM
Are we not confusing the issue with BECs and red wire disconnection?  I thought the original question was about a fail safe, probably through the TX/RX combination.Can we keep it simple and not get too technical.Thanks
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: chas on August 27, 2020, 12:40:33 PM
I've read through this thread twice now, and I've found it quite confusing. All my models behave the same way, if the signal is lost, either through a flat battery, or switching the transmitter off the same thing happens. I.e. it just stops, and that's fail safe enough for me.
  I use futuba, Fleet, spectrum and hobbyking , 2.4 gig and 40 MHz radios. Speed controllers are viper and hobbyking. Brushed and brushless motors.
   Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've always assumed that this is the norm.
Chas


   
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 27, 2020, 01:23:01 PM
Are we not confusing the issue with BECs and red wire disconnection?  I thought the original question was about a fail safe, probably through the TX/RX combination.Can we keep it simple and not get too technical.Thanks


YES i totaly aggree an yes it was about failsafe at the start as thats my problem
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 27, 2020, 01:28:29 PM
I've read through this thread twice now, and I've found it quite confusing. All my models behave the same way, if the signal is lost, either through a flat battery, or switching the transmitter off the same thing happens. I.e. it just stops, and that's fail safe enough for me.
  I use futuba, Fleet, spectrum and hobbyking , 2.4 gig and 40 MHz radios. Speed controllers are viper and hobbyking. Brushed and brushless motors.
   Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've always assumed that this is the norm.
Chas


HI Chas you are lucky in my opinon but my model is fairly complex with severall workin features but if you get on ok with your R/C  great enjoy your sailin times
chris




 
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: chas on August 27, 2020, 03:51:26 PM
Hi Frogman, sorry if I wasn't very clear, I'm also sorry if you read some sort of criticism into my question. Some of my models have plenty of working features too,  including motor mixing, some are also quite quick and I'd hate it if they went off on their own.
    I was trying to say that regardless of the radio used, they all just stop if the signal is lost. Are there some speed controllers that don't do that? Even my very first esc, a home build from a kit 30 + years ago stopped on signal loss, hence my confusion with the issue.
 I'm obviously missing something here, I'd just like to understand better.
Chas

Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 27, 2020, 06:17:04 PM
Hi Frogman, sorry if I wasn't very clear, I'm also sorry if you read some sort of criticism into my question. Some of my models have plenty of working features too,  including motor mixing, some are also quite quick and I'd hate it if they went off on their own.
    I was trying to say that regardless of the radio used, they all just stop if the signal is lost. Are there some speed controllers that don't do that? Even my very first esc, a home build from a kit 30 + years ago stopped on signal loss, hence my confusion with the issue.
 I'm obviously missing something here, I'd just like to understand better.
(Chas Qoute)


HI Chas well for you to understand better i'll exsplain whats happening i have a big 6ft model of a type 23 frigate hms norfolk in 1/72 scale an its been sailin ok but its stood for a yr since the last sailin due to corvid an well i took her up my pond where i sail an an she was sailin great for about 10 to 15 mins then all of a sudden she just went rouge.


 An shot across the pond flat out an that's faster than i can run but thankfully some holliday makers see her comin towards them an one of the blokes put his hands  out to stop her hittin the concrete wall of our pond an saved her an i thought id got a fuse blew so i thanked them an towed her back to where our table is an i checked her over an all fuses all A-OK.


 So we lifted her back into the water an within say 10 mins or so it did it again an again thankfully the missus can run faster than me as she saved it hittin the wall again so i packed up an home with it an now when it loses signal the motors cut out a couple of time on test as my R/C is suppose to have a failsafe in built but its not workin properely  as when i switched off the T/X the green light on the R/X went to red sayin sinal loss.


but it dint stop the motors they were goin flat out so its a danger to itself an others as i dont want to clobber another model SO do you understand now Chas ? i only hope i can cure the problem as ive just been to my local R/C model shop an he got me a add on failsafe unit to fit between the R/X an the motors an im now goin to try it but im not confident it will work as ive herd so much that i now dont know what to belive  OH DEAR
chris

Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: DaveM on August 27, 2020, 07:05:37 PM
I've prepared a note which might help explain failsafe. I've tried to attach it as a txt file but the results were unusable, so if you'd like a copy then please PM me with your E-Mail address and I can forward it as a doc file.
Dave M
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 27, 2020, 07:54:09 PM
HI ALL well just to let you know that the add on failsafe did not work  >>:-( <*<
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on August 27, 2020, 07:57:07 PM
That was to be expected, sorry.

Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 27, 2020, 08:03:03 PM
That was to be expected, sorry.


HI you have nothing to be sorry about
all best
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on August 27, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Right. Lucky that I had a T6L knocking about! I have just had a play with the set. Using three Futaba servos and a Viper 10 Marine in ch3. Using a 6v 1600mAh pack to drive everything and an RS380 motor for load.
I can confirm that all channels except ch3 have a 'last valid signal hold' function on loss of signal. So wherever they last were, they stay there!
Ch3 sets its failsafe position on the turn on of the transmitter, the position based on wherever the stick is when the set turns on. The problem is the ratchet, it is not a precise instrument for repeatedly setting a precise failsafe point. So, while testing the system, turning on and off repeatedly, toggling the throttle in between to make sure everything is working, the stick does not return to precisely the same spot every time. So on turn off and failsafe, sometimes the motors creep a bit, as described previously.
If you repeatedly turn off and on without wiggling the sticks, the Viper speed control sits there and does nothing every time. So my thoughts, as mentioned previously, either source a spring return kit for the left side stick on the transmitter (might be a bit of a challenge, all the brainy people at Ripmax are currently furloughed!). Or file a slightly deeper vee in the ratchet inside the set. This needs to be in exactly the right place, dead centre on the throttle range. Best way to mark this is with a bit of tippex on the side of the ratchet, then mark with a pencil where the metal spring arm touches. You could lock the stick off in neutral with a big blob of Blutac on the outside face just to be sure.
Done right this will give you a positive position for your stick every time it turns on. This will set the failsafe in the right place every time you turn on. What it doesn't do is explain why your system keeps going into failsafe in the first place. It would be a good idea to see if you can trace the problem and solve it, rather than rely on the failsafe to get you out of a jam every time.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 27, 2020, 10:13:51 PM
THANKS i may try that or go back to 40 meg
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 08:39:15 AM
I've prepared a note which might help explain failsafe. I've tried to attach it as a txt file but the results were unusable, so if you'd like a copy then please PM me with your E-Mail address and I can forward it as a doc file.
Dave M


HI Dave many thanks for your email an yes it does exsplain a lot about this failsafe an cheers for sending it
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 08:55:29 AM
AN HI again guys well i treid out my old 40 meg on my model with my old same model failsafe  as the new one i bought yesterday an the model  works perfect when i switched off the T/X the red indicator came on in the old failsafe  with tha 40  meg but if i remember rightly i think the reason i bought this new 2.4 ghz was that the old 40meg was havin range problems  so i will see what happens when i go back to my local model shop where i bought the new FAILSAFE yesterday an see what they say as in the failsafe instruckions it say that it is ajustable by a small screw but i dont want to mess around with it in case i mess it up then i wont be able to get my money back so its up to them
all best all
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 11:32:44 AM
HI again  guys well went an had a word with my model shop an they treid it out an they said its to do with the R/X FAILSAFE is canncellin the new Failsafe out but its as one of you guys said as its on the throttle ratchet  if im not at the dead same point when ever i switch on the R/X IT IS CONFUSEIN the R/X FAILSAFE so they gave me my dosh bacK for the new F/S  an said it needs to  have in the T/X ON THE THROTTLE a spring to get it to dead centre so then the FAILSAFE should work an said you seem to have loss of signal problem  WHICH on a 2.4 gig i herd you wont get this problem but well i have an i said yes as that is it so they sold me a mountin an a spring to put it in myself an i will see how it goes on that well thats as far as ive got will let you guys know what happens if i can do it
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: justboatonic on August 28, 2020, 12:03:23 PM
HI again  guys well went an had a word with my model shop an they treid it out an they said its to do with the R/X FAILSAFE is canncellin the new Failsafe out but its as one of you guys said as its on the throttle ratchet  if im not at the dead same point when ever i switch on the R/X IT IS CONFUSEIN the R/X FAILSAFE so they gave me my dosh bacK for the new F/S  an said it needs to  have in the T/X ON THE THROTTLE a spring to get it to dead centre so then the FAILSAFE should work an said you seem to have loss of signal problem  WHICH on a 2.4 gig i herd you wont get this problem but well i have an i said yes as that is it so they sold me a mountin an a spring to put it in myself an i will see how it goes on that well thats as far as ive got will let you guys know what happens if i can do it
chris
I personally dont see how a rachet or spring on the throttle makes any difference. As Ive said before, the radio doesnt have a full fail safe system. It is a safe start system. The User Manual states on P6 says not to switch off the Tx first as this will make the model uncontrollable. This is good advice but re inforces the 'fail safe' isnt setting any servo(s) to a pre determined position.
It's possible the set has a fault if there is a signal loss problem but again, it would be unusual. Im more inclined to think the additional fail safe was causing a conflict rather than signal loss.
What Rx are you using, the supplied R3106GF?
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 12:10:51 PM
I personally dont see how a rachet or spring on the throttle makes any difference. As Ive said before, the radio doesnt have a full fail safe system. It is a safe start system. The User Manual states on P6 says not to switch off the Tx first as this will make the model uncontrollable. This is good advice but re inforces the 'fail safe' isnt setting any servo(s) to a pre determined position.
It's possible the set has a fault if there is a signal loss problem but again, it would be unusual. Im more inclined to think the additional fail safe was causing a conflict rather than signal loss.
What Rx are you using, the supplied R3106GF?


HI [size=78%]justboatonic YES the R3106GF [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]chris[/size]
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: justboatonic on August 28, 2020, 01:15:07 PM
If you have any signal loss during operation as suggested by the model shop, the Tx and Rx led should indicate this. On the Rx this would be a solid red led. It's not clear from the User Manual how this is shown on the Tx.
Id suggest trying the fail safe by first moving the throttle trim to full down then the throttle stick at full down and switch on the Tx then the Rx. Note, if your esc has forwards and reverse, you may need to recalibrate this if the throttle trim is set to fully down but see how it goes first as is.

Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 02:53:08 PM
If you have any signal loss during operation as suggested by the model shop, the Tx and Rx led should indicate this. On the Rx this would be a solid red led. It's not clear from the User Manual how this is shown on the Tx.
Id suggest trying the fail safe by first moving the throttle trim to full down then the throttle stick at full down and switch on the Tx then the Rx. Note, if your esc has forwards and reverse, you may need to recalibrate this if the throttle trim is set to fully down but see how it goes first as is.


HI REGARDS signal loss its ok when its nr the T/X but the signal loss happens when on the pond  about 60 to 100ft away an its impossble to see whats happening to the R/X an what colour as you say green for ok an red for signal loss  is happening in the ship an regards the T/X HOW IT SHOWS batt state is a bright red led AN IF LOW POWER i think it flashes as the instuctions is pretty vauge on this an  must admit this is the poorest idea to show T/X POWER as i always liked the gauge an neddle to show how much power is left but thats how futaba have done it poor show indeed
anyway cheers for your help an i'll see how things go
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: RST on August 28, 2020, 03:53:16 PM

Think you need to take a step back and take a breath.  If you are having these problems at a certain range why not do a range check?  Presumably you're not sailing entirely by yourself (maybe you are) but surely it's feasible to have one person with the tx with another at the model checking the functions or looking at the rx.  Not exactly the most exciting exercise but not exactly hard to do.  It might not manifest itself doing that, but it's a pretty standard thing to try.

...I still think ratchet throttle sticks create more trouble than good to us, but that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: justboatonic on August 28, 2020, 04:10:30 PM

HI REGARDS signal loss its ok when its nr the T/X but the signal loss happens when on the pond  about 60 to 100ft away an its impossble to see whats happening to the R/X an what colour as you say green for ok an red for signal loss  is happening in the ship an regards the T/X HOW IT SHOWS batt state is a bright red led AN IF LOW POWER i think it flashes as the instuctions is pretty vauge on this an  must admit this is the poorest idea to show T/X POWER as i always liked the gauge an neddle to show how much power is left but thats how futaba have done it poor show indeed
anyway cheers for your help an i'll see how things go
chris
There's clearly something wrong here because this is a radio that can be used in RC aircraft so should have a greater range than 100 feet.

Im wondering if the Tx is stuck in power down or range check mode? It should reset to 'normal' mode every time you switch on though.
This Tx is designed to work on 4 AA dry cell batteries. These have a higher nominal voltage than rechargables. Are you using dry cells or rechargables? If using rechargables, they may have insufficient power to reliably operate the Tx.

I used to have a Futaba Medallion years ago and the battery meter wouldnt budge if 8 rechargable cells were used instead of dry cells.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 04:22:41 PM
Think you need to take a step back and take a breath.  If you are having these problems at a certain range why not do a range check?  Presumably you're not sailing entirely by yourself (maybe you are) but surely it's feasible to have one person with the tx with another at the model checking the functions or looking at the rx.  Not exactly the most exciting exercise but not exactly hard to do.  It might not manifest itself doing that, but it's a pretty standard thing to try.

...I still think ratchet throttle sticks create more trouble than good to us, but that's just my opinion.


HI RST yes you are right about havin a rest as thats what im gonna do as up to this point im sick of hearing the word FAIL SAFE   an no i dont sail on my own as my missus helps me to lift norfolk in an out of the pond as she is 6ft long  an fairly hevty an ive done this range checkin before an all ok but for some reason i still have the rouge runaway prob  maybe as been said perhaps the T/X OR R/X is faulty  i dont know but havin a rest from it an doin some building on my tiger cheers
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: C-3PO on August 28, 2020, 04:54:37 PM
Hi Chris,

I am sure this has been very frustrating - can I check is the receiver you are using a Futaba R3106GF?

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/28/futaba.png)

According to this chart the Futaba 6L is for use as an "Air system" only - not sure if this relates to the technical spec or the fact that the stick may not be centre sprung.

And this link suggest that the R3106GF receiver is a high voltage version - the 2 voltage ranges are confusing - but it suggests (I think) that 4.0v is lowest operating - could the RX voltage be an issue

RATED VOLTAGE:
DC 4.8V~7.4V

VOLTAGE RANGE:
DC 4.0V~8.4V

https://futabausa.com/product/r3106gf/ (https://futabausa.com/product/r3106gf/)

PS No mention on this post about FS's :)

************************************************************

** UPDATE ** - Assuming Rx is R3106GF - This link to the RX manual states RX voltage 4.8 to 7.4V

http://manuals.hobbico.com/fut/r3106gf-manual.pdf (http://manuals.hobbico.com/fut/r3106gf-manual.pdf)

************************************************************

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/28/rx.png)

So it is possible that everything is working fine TX<>RX  - it may simply be that the RX does not have the right power supply!!!!!!

Regards
C-3PO
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 04:59:28 PM
There's clearly something wrong here because this is a radio that can be used in RC aircraft so should have a greater range than 100 feet.

Im wondering if the Tx is stuck in power down or range check mode? It should reset to 'normal' mode every time you switch on though.
This Tx is designed to work on 4 AA dry cell batteries. These have a higher nominal voltage than rechargables. Are you using dry cells or rechargables? If using rechargables, they may have insufficient power to reliably operate the Tx.

I used to have a Futaba Medallion years ago and the battery meter wouldnt budge if 8 rechargable cells were used instead of dry cells.


HI  IM useing 4 double AA NEW DURACELL  batts an i used a batt checker before i installed them an i did this correctly makin sure the batts are the right way so they should not be a prolem an when i go again up the pond as its a 40 mile round trip an nice wheather i'll do a range check again with the missus tellin me if things work ok  from one end of the pond to the other  an as you say this is meant for a plane so the signal should carry about a half a mile or more not just a 100 ft or so but now until i can get up the pond again all this is guess work but many thanks all you guys for your help as im a lot wiser now than at the start of this thread an ive never had a 2.4 gig R/C before an i must admit im not impressed
cheers chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 05:33:37 PM
Hi Chris,

I am sure this has been very frustrating - can I check is the receiver you are using a Futaba R3106GF?

(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2020/08/28/futaba.png)

According to this chart the Futaba 6L is for use as an "Air system" only - not sure if this relates to the technical spec or the fact that the stick may not be centre sprung.

And this link suggest that the R3106GF receiver is a high voltage version - the 2 voltage ranges are confusing - but it suggests (I think) that 4.0v is lowest operating - could the RX voltage be an issue

RATED VOLTAGE:
DC 4.8V~7.4V

VOLTAGE RANGE:
DC 4.0V~8.4V

https://futabausa.com/product/r3106gf/ (https://futabausa.com/product/r3106gf/)

PS No mention on this post about FS's :)

Regards
C-3PO


HI C-3PO AN [size=78%]frustrating[/size][size=78%] god im nr bald through pullin my hair out in clumps lol over this an yes thats the R/X   is correct as with this troble im also havin trouble with this pc as it was printin ok at the start then it goes an prints like its doin  now aaaaaaaaaahhhhggghhhh LOL in the last couple of yrs eletronics as been my bugbear not sure what you mean  by [/size][size=78%]could the RX voltage be an issue as its running off a 6v REDUCER FROM A 12V BATT mind you its shares with some other workin features now you have said this i wonder if i would be better off with the r/x havin just its own batt as that maybe the prolem but ive got a digital meter fitted tellin me the voltage bein fed to the R/X AN it 6v but as its sharein when i use the other items perhaps the R/X VOLTAGE DROPS as other units are takin their supply i think someone elese mentioned this but the penny dint drop but its a fair sized batt at 3ah an this is a 12 v batt but its goin through a 6v reducer to power the R/X  OH GOD THIS MAY BE THE PROB next sail i will remove the fuses that power all the other units an power just the R/X YOU MAY HAVE FOUND OUT MY  PROBLEM I MUST ADMIT I HAVE A COMPLEX SHIP BUT IT WAS NEVER  A  PROBLEM ON 40 MEG AN IVE USED THIS LAYOUT FOR YRS but as this now 2.4 gig it may play a big part OH WELL I LIVE AN LEARN THIS MAYBE MY FAULT SORRY GUYS but that what im gonna do nxt sailin oh well CHEERS GUYS IM BEGINING TO THINK I OUGHT TO PACK THIS IN LOL[/size]
[size=78%]CHRIS[/size]
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 06:03:02 PM
Well guys AFTER that relavation i think what i will do is leave all the workin features goin but fit in a 4 x double AA   BATT PACK for just the R/X alone an alter the R/X aireal so its pointin upwards out of the deck an see what that does an leave the T/X alone for now god it could be so many things as this is a complex model
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: microgyros on August 28, 2020, 06:05:52 PM
Quote
Do not use a dry cell battery with this system
Why not just try a 4.8v(4 cell) or 6v(5 cell) NiCD or NiMH pack?


Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 06:26:48 PM
Why not just try a 4.8v(4 cell) or 6v(5 cell) NiCD or NiMH pack?


HI i dont think there will be enough power with just them batts as ive got about 7 servos goin an i herd dont know if correct but a servo will take power even when its not goin but thanks for your instrest an comment but as i said i think this maybe my fault but at least its givin all you guys something to think an talk about hasnt it an im a lot wizer now than before
all best chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: malcolmfrary on August 28, 2020, 06:32:19 PM
Why not just try a 4.8v(4 cell) or 6v(5 cell) NiCD or NiMH pack?
Not knowing what's plugged into the radio, a 6 volt radio battery might not be a good idea.  Some items do not like more than 5 volts.  If receiver power is from a BEC, either a discrete one or one in an ESC, voltage should be adequate and stable.  Only caveat there is if a lot of stuff is plugged into the receiver, the load might be too much for it.
The most common cause of range problems on 2G4, apart from "park flyer" ses, is poor siting of the important bit of the aerial.  On the lower frequencies, it was difficult to obstruct all of the receiver aerial, on 2G4, it is very easy to hide the entire active length.


A servo takes some power when not doing anything, but not much at all.  Several operating at the same time, guess at about 1/2 amp each.  It adds up.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 06:47:43 PM
Not knowing what's plugged into the radio, a 6 volt radio battery might not be a good idea.  Some items do not like more than 5 volts.  If receiver power is from a BEC, either a discrete one or one in an ESC, voltage should be adequate and stable.  Only caveat there is if a lot of stuff is plugged into the receiver, the load might be too much for it.
The most common cause of range problems on 2G4, apart from "park flyer" ses, is poor siting of the important bit of the aerial.  On the lower frequencies, it was difficult to obstruct all of the receiver aerial, on 2G4, it is very easy to hide the entire active length.


A servo takes some power when not doing anything, but not much at all.  Several operating at the same time, guess at about 1/2 amp each.  It adds up.


HI Well there is no BEC on the ESC an yes there is a fair amount of thing bein powered an all the ports on the R/X are in use an it says 4.8 to 6v  for the R/X
Chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: microgyros on August 28, 2020, 07:07:09 PM

HI i dont think there will be enough power with just them batts as ive got about 7 servos goin an i herd dont know if correct but a servo will take power even when its not goin but thanks for your instrest an comment but as i said i think this maybe my fault but at least its givin all you guys something to think an talk about hasnt it an im a lot wizer now than before
all best chris
There is more power capability in four AA NiCadS or four AA NiMH cells than duracell alkaline batteries. That is the reason Futaba specify not to use a dry cell pack.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: microgyros on August 28, 2020, 07:12:49 PM
Not knowing what's plugged into the radio, a 6 volt radio battery might not be a good idea.  Some items do not like more than 5 volts.  If receiver power is from a BEC, either a discrete one or one in an ESC, voltage should be adequate and stable.  Only caveat there is if a lot of stuff is plugged into the receiver, the load might be too much for it.
The most common cause of range problems on 2G4, apart from "park flyer" ses, is poor siting of the important bit of the aerial.  On the lower frequencies, it was difficult to obstruct all of the receiver aerial, on 2G4, it is very easy to hide the entire active length.


A servo takes some power when not doing anything, but not much at all.  Several operating at the same time, guess at about 1/2 amp each.  It adds up.
You quoted me so I'll answer that Malcolm.
He's answered that and you possibly posted before reading.
He is fine with either a 4 or 5 cell NiMH or NiCd pack.
The four duracell cells cause the receiver brown out after 10 minutes.
An alternative is 2s Life pack or a low resistance reservoir capacitor.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 28, 2020, 07:21:39 PM
There is more power capability in four AA NiCadS or four AA NiMH cells than duracell alkaline batteries. That is the reason Futaba specify not to use a dry cell pack.
microgyros

HI THANKS for your quote an i think the best way is leave every thing switched off an if she sail ok that should be the cure then i'll rewire her an i think i'll fit a spring on the throttle of the T/X to try an cure the F/S
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: justboatonic on August 28, 2020, 11:44:49 PM
Well guys AFTER that relavation i think what i will do is leave all the workin features goin but fit in a 4 x double AA   BATT PACK for just the R/X alone an alter the R/X aireal so its pointin upwards out of the deck an see what that does an leave the T/X alone for now god it could be so many things as this is a complex model
chris
You will be ok to use 4 dry cells in the Tx as stated in the User Guide. Nominal voltage on these cells is 1.5v so 6v. To be honest, I wouldnt want to fly a plane with this radio and 4 dry cells. It would work out expensive.

The UG shows an Rx supply as an FR2F1800 6.6v 1800mah battery or with a bec equipped esc motor battery supply of a max 7.4v. Although the UG states the voltage range for the Rx is 4.8 to 7.4v. Nominal voltage on nicad \ nimh cells is around 1.2v each.

For a surface vehicle with 2 servos, powering the Rx off 4 of these, you'd be right at the bottom of the Rx voltage operating range.
If you have 7 (?)servos in the boat, 4.8v isnt going to be nearly enough as the servos will draw current and voltage even when idle. This is likely why you're only getting 60 to 100 foot range and iffy results.
I'd suggest you use something like the FR2F1800 battery to power your Rx.
Yes, repositioning the Rx aerial is a good idea.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: microgyros on August 29, 2020, 12:18:28 AM
... but fit in a 4 x double AA   BATT PACK for just the R/X alone ...
I missed that mention.
Yes I considered it too but perhaps after you are happy with results of a simpler & quick diagnostic test.
It's hardly worth the extra work if you already have a suitable battery pack to supply the servos together with the receiver and everything else.
What escs are you using?
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: RST on August 29, 2020, 01:00:10 AM
I don't know what an UG is but I mentioned to Chris on PM to take a step back and try and test things in series and hopefully, in isolation to make sure each part works as expected. Then work outwards.  I should just step back on 2.4GHz terminology as not sure all the terms.


Edit: just realised UG is the manual.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 29, 2020, 07:45:34 AM
You will be ok to use 4 dry cells in the Tx as stated in the User Guide. Nominal voltage on these cells is 1.5v so 6v. To be honest, I wouldnt want to fly a plane with this radio and 4 dry cells. It would work out expensive.

The UG shows an Rx supply as an FR2F1800 6.6v 1800mah battery or with a bec equipped esc motor battery supply of a max 7.4v. Although the UG states the voltage range for the Rx is 4.8 to 7.4v. Nominal voltage on nicad \ nimh cells is around 1.2v each.

For a surface vehicle with 2 servos, powering the Rx off 4 of these, you'd be right at the bottom of the Rx voltage operating range.
If you have 7 (?)servos in the boat, 4.8v isnt going to be nearly enough as the servos will draw current and voltage even when idle. This is likely why you're only getting 60 to 100 foot range and iffy results.
I'd suggest you use something like the FR2F1800 battery to power your Rx.
Yes, repositioning the Rx aerial is a good idea.


HI  [size=78%]justboatonic  THIS batt [/size][/size][size=78%]FR2F1800 whats its like an wheight as im limited to wheight in where my R/X power POSTION IS in the hull  could you post a pic of it please an where to get one if i can as funds are not great at the moment ( poll tax due ?  an i thought id got the  R/X aeiral AS CLOSE to the deck as possible an its right at the front under the 4.5" gun so well away from motor's an ESC  but im game to drill a  small hole in the deck an have the aeiral pointin straight up is that a good idea ? as this is a very exspensive model an dont want to wreck it [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]chris [/size]
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 29, 2020, 07:57:51 AM
I missed that mention.
Yes I considered it too but perhaps after you are happy with results of a simpler & quick diagnostic test.
It's hardly worth the extra work if you already have a suitable battery pack to supply the servos together with the receiver and everything else.
What escs are you using?


AN hi microgyros  what ESC im usein its an eletronize 30 amp FR30HX microprosser fairly heavy duty i think it is   as i like these as they can be set up for speed range easy as not
had much luck with other ESC's  an the cost makes me want to use it
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 29, 2020, 08:13:30 AM
I don't know what an UG is but I mentioned to Chris on PM to take a step back and try and test things in series and hopefully, in isolation to make sure each part works as expected. Then work outwards.  I should just step back on 2.4GHz terminology as not sure all the terms.


Edit: just realised UG is the manual.


AN HI RST an yes i was confused at the term UG  he's right but now you mention it ive now got it but as you say step back as you said because im gettin a bit confused with all this an the grey matter has gone a bit cloudy but thinkin this through nr everything works ok its just the failsafe thats the issuse  so im gonna alter the aeireal an have it stickin up through the deck so it can get as much signal as possible an stick a spring on the throttle an see what happens  but again all you guys who have put in your pence worth thank you very much an its certainly gave us all something to think an talk about has'nt it CHEERS ALL
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: malcolmfrary on August 29, 2020, 08:50:19 AM

If you have 7 (?)servos in the boat, 4.8v isnt going to be nearly enough as the servos will draw current and voltage even when idle.

Yes, repositioning the Rx aerial is a good idea.
While having the right voltage is important, what is more important is that the battery can both supply the current while maintaining the voltage under full load.  A radio plus 7 servos idle will probably pull under 100mA.  All of the servos going off at the same time, something over 3 Amps.  A good NiMH pack (with good wiring and connections) supplying a nominal 6 volts should give a healthy reserve of voltage and ability to deliver the required current.  The BEC built into the ESC might not be up to the maximum demand that might be made on it which "might" cause the voltage to dip.
Back when I was working for a living, it was surprising how many unlikely problems on customer equipment were caused by a poor power supply, and by that I mean a plug top transformer that was marginally adequate the was in the box with the gear.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: C-3PO on August 29, 2020, 09:14:21 AM
Hi Chris,

With a large complex model with lots of components hanging off the receiver I think you are likely to have the potential to bump into issues with the power supply especailly if a servo stalls, batteries start to run low etc. etc. etc.

So why not split/seperate the power supply.

One power source for the "Mission Critical" aspect - receiver and rudder servo another source for all the "nice to have but not important" accessories - rotating guns etc.

It's a very easy thing to achieve - it uses a simple wiring harness - I do it all the time when driving servo's etc from microprocessors which don't have the current handling ability to drive servo(s).

If you want to give it a go PM me your address and I'll post you a harness.

Regards

C-3PO
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 29, 2020, 09:34:08 AM
While having the right voltage is important, what is more important is that the battery can both supply the current while maintaining the voltage under full load.  A radio plus 7 servos idle will probably pull under 100mA.  All of the servos going off at the same time, something over 3 Amps.  A good NiMH pack (with good wiring and connections) supplying a nominal 6 volts should give a healthy reserve of voltage and ability to deliver the required current.  The BEC built into the ESC might not be up to the maximum demand that might be made on it which "might" cause the voltage to dip.
Back when I was working for a living, it was surprising how many unlikely problems on customer equipment were caused by a poor power supply, and by that I mean a plug top transformer that was marginally adequate the was in the box with the gear.


HI Malcolm  my ESC has'nt got a BEC it says so in the in the instruckions
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: microgyros on August 29, 2020, 10:10:06 AM
The speed control paperwork will state the limit on voltage from the receiver. If memory serves, there is a mention of an internal regulator allowing a higher level on the 3-pin plug.
 
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: frogman3 on August 29, 2020, 10:42:21 AM
The speed control paperwork will state the limit on voltage from the receiver. If memory serves, there is a mention of an internal regulator allowing a higher level on the 3-pin plug.
THANK you for the info [size=78%]microgyros[/size]
[/size][size=78%]chris[/size]
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: malcolmfrary on August 29, 2020, 12:05:53 PM

HI Malcolm  my ESC has'nt got a BEC it says so in the in the instruckions
chris
Sorry, I missed that bit. 
Either a good receiver battery and harness to the receiver, OR a handy thing called a UBEC to get the required receiver voltage from the main battery.  They are available very cheaply rated up to 5A, give a very stable 5 volts, and save the hassle of forgetting to charge a separate battery.
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: justboatonic on August 29, 2020, 12:29:27 PM

HI  [size=78%]justboatonic  THIS batt [/size][size=78%]FR2F1800 whats its like an wheight as im limited to wheight in where my R/X power POSTION IS in the hull  could you post a pic of it please an where to get one if i can as funds are not great at the moment ( poll tax due ?  an i thought id got the  R/X aeiral AS CLOSE to the deck as possible an its right at the front under the 4.5" gun so well away from motor's an ESC  but im game to drill a  small hole in the deck an have the aeiral pointin straight up is that a good idea ? as this is a very exspensive model an dont want to wreck it [/size]

[size=78%]chris [/size]

The FR2F1800 is quite chunky but you need the amps capacity not just voltage. Dimensions are approx, length 44m, 70mm wide, 16.5mm high. Roughly 2 inches long by 3 wide by 3/4 inch high. Unfortunately, being Futaba it is expensive at about 25 plus you'd need the dedicated charger.

Hobbyking UK has a similar voltage and capacity nimh pack for just over 6 plus postage.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-receiver-pack-2-3a-1500mah-6-0v-nimh-high-power-series.html?queryID=&objectID=41328&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-receiver-pack-2-3a-1500mah-6-0v-nimh-high-power-series.html?queryID=&objectID=41328&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products)

Alternatively, Vapextech do this one.

https://www.vapextech.co.uk/batteries/radio-control/6v-6-6v/

Futaba 2.4Ghz radio is usually very good at rejecting motor interference unlike the old 40mhz FM radio. Positioning of the 2.4Ghz aerial isnt as critical but you need it above the waterline.

Title: Re: HELP
Post by: frogman3 on September 14, 2020, 02:19:54 PM
http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf (http://www.ripmax.de/media/download//m/a/manual_t6l_e_.pdf)


Page 13 indicates that the failsafe is set at transmitter power up, and is set at whatever position the ratchet LH stick is in at that point. The manual shows the normal position for a powered aircraft, but you would need to ensure that on power up your stick is in the neutral position instead ( halfway point between up and down ). Failsafe only available on Ch3.
Try it and see what happens.


HI ALL well this is not my new R/C SO please dont think that this is my FUTABA 6CHA 2.4 gig that i had trouble with on the failsafe as the model went rouge up the pond when i was sailing  a couple of weeks ago well this morn i bought the spring an the arm to fit the throttle on cha 3


 an i took off the ratchet an fitted in the spring an its arm an now treid the model for FAIL SAFE CUTOUT an it works everytime as i treid it 5 times of running the motors an switchin off the t/x so no signal an the green led  changed to red an the motors stopped straight away how the FAIL SAFE should work hooooorrrraaayyy so i got something right an many thanks to you guys for puttin me on the right track cheers   all 
chris
Title: Re: HELP FAILSAFE FOR A 2.4 GIG R/C
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on September 14, 2020, 07:19:21 PM
 :-))