Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: morfa on August 31, 2020, 11:16:07 PM

Title: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on August 31, 2020, 11:16:07 PM
Maybe this is elementary, but my MSM steam plant should run 10 minutes with the gas tank (butane) full (75%) and boiler full @ 355ml water.
What happens if I don't bring it in before one runs out?


My test are in a backyard pool where I can control and watch the water level.


Thanks,
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: carlfmiller on September 01, 2020, 12:35:03 AM
There are experts who no doubt will tell you what for, but my opinion is that since you never want the fire under a dry boiler (call that ruination), that you should adjust the amount of fuel to run out before the water. You can do this by successively weighing the fuel tank, adding a little less fuel each time.  Every time you use it, be sure to open the stop cock the same amount so that is not another variable.


And please remember to post pictures and any performance info-- I am an MSM user and very interested in your experiences.


Carl




Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: tigertiger on September 01, 2020, 02:40:58 AM
Could you short cut this process?


Put fuel in the burner tank and weigh it. Run the system until the steam drops. Re weigh the fuel tank. Calculate the fuel used. Then minus 10% fuel weight as a safety buffer. Remember to leave stop cock settings the same in future.


Just a thought.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: KBIO on September 01, 2020, 08:00:31 AM
Hello!
Sure that some tests has to be done before to be confident with your plant!
Normally , the manufacturer is aware of the problem and you should run out of gas before water. Unless you build your own plant .....
But to reassure you, the MSM boilers are very strong and well manufactured. It can support dry heating :-))
if I can allow myself a good advice : -" DO NOT answer the phone when testing your plant!! <*< " Above all if this is your wife who says that it will take one second only!!! :embarrassed:

Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 01, 2020, 10:47:49 AM
Bonjour Derek,

I fully agree with Kbio, I always test my steam plants at home in my bathtub before going to the pond, except when my boat is lo,ger than 137 cm.


Example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSOSj89BY_M


I let the machine run at full speed, blow the whistle and measure the time it takes for the water to reach the bottom of the boiler level. I know I will use the boat less on the lake, so my calculated time is safe.


Besides this, do not worry, if the boiler has been soldered with CuPro, your little burner will never be able to destroy it if you do not insist when the boiler is empty.


For me, the major risk is the over pressure awith a damaged and non operational safety steam valve.


This is why, with the gas regulator/attenuator, I always install a RC safety gas valve on my steam plants :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCgLBAxieNU
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: jpdenver on September 01, 2020, 03:37:07 PM
Hello Derek,
I have an MSM Vertical plant in my Borkum, running a Clyde.   

May I suggest you add a Gas Pressure Regulator - Like the BIX029, (from Forrest Classics)
  into the system.It will help keep you from wasting both Gas and Water. 
That being said, I wear a stop watch around my neck when on the pond. 
 and when close to the end of 10 minutes, I start to swing the boat back by for a glimpse of the sight glass.   
I have never run out of gas, but have come close on the water.Needless to say, but I will anyway, run out of either one, or battery power on the receiver, 
and your boat tends to just sit in the middle of the water.  Not a good thing. 


 If I am running alone, I also have a little Club500 racer with me to act as a tug/pusher to get a steamer back to shore.
I like Raphael's cutoff valves.   Wish I spoke French to understand the narrative on his videos.

Regards,
Jim Pope
Hilltop Boatworks
Denver, CO USA
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: tonyH on September 01, 2020, 04:18:45 PM
This, I presume, is the sort of thing that Rhavane suggests. I've fitted one to my torpedo boat and it certainly takes some of the stress out of the steam business. Not overpriced either IMHO
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 01, 2020, 09:50:16 PM
Great ideas - will need to study them and chose a route to take -thanks for all the advise.


jpdenver (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=15448) - do you have a picture of the BIX029 installed on your MSM steam plant?


Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: jpdenver on September 01, 2020, 10:01:06 PM
Derek,
I use the Bix029 on all my plants.Wander around my you-tube channel and there are a couple of versions.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1J8hR50Urzx9gU6LZYdlMg/videos

Regards,Jim
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: RST on September 01, 2020, 10:15:55 PM
I can't add anything but to say I watch Rhavanes videos and I'm not modelling live steam but still interested. I work in France but my French is still awful!  But if you switch-on subtitles, there's often an "English" option to convert which is quite bad, but fills in some gaps. For me anyway, he's quite unusually clear and narrative about his videos which is applaudable so you can pick up a few things, as with everything in life, if you make a bit of effort also. His English is better than most of us can speak French, but it's wonderful if you try a little bit.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Martin [Admin] on September 02, 2020, 12:49:06 AM
 
 Also found this regulator on Utube:    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7MhkUN5No
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on September 02, 2020, 04:25:59 PM
In my experience using the old Cheddar Models Puffing boiler (both Mk 1 and Mk 2) nothing much happens if you run out of water before fire. I have had this happen a couple of times and suffered no damage to the boiler as such. The wooden lagging was a different question and it was charcoaled! Not good. Cheddar confirmed that there is not enough heat in one burner to unsolder a silver soldered boiler. The heat required to unsolder is more than the heat required to solder and a single burner just cannot produce enough heat.


It is however not wise to do this but the boilers in question have been steaming for at least 8 years with no ill effects. If you do suffer this misfortune do nothing when you get the model back and let the boiler cool down naturally for several hours. Under no circumstances attempt to fill the boiler as it will immediately flash steam and shoot a jet straight up and the shock could then do some damage.


On the Mk 1 boiler I have a blowlamp and arranged a small windscreen washer to shoot water onto the flame to put the flame out. This works well. On the Mk 2 I have a ceramic burner and water would destroy it so I inserted a gas valve (Clevdon Steam) on the supply line which is operated by a servo so I can shut the burner down.


In general I time the sailing session and you soon learn how long it will last. For example one of my ships runs out of water consistently at 31 mins so 31 mins and 30 seconds and I'm in trouble so I typically sail for 25 mins and bring it in.


To put to bed an urban myth a small boiler that runs out of water cannot explode as there is no pressure.


Hope this may assist


Cheers


Geoff

Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 02, 2020, 05:41:18 PM
Thanks for your advice so I can learn from your experience.


I will put the gas value from Clevdon Steam on my wish list and hope when I get it the forum will help me install it correctly.


If I go that route, I will need a new transmitter (TX) as the one I have Flysky FS-GT3C is only 3 channels.
Any suggestions?


I like the trigger models.
I would need it to run
Cheers,
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 03, 2020, 06:12:05 PM
Bonjour,
Cheaper gas regulator double diaphragm (smoother) here, I have several of them : http://www.microcosm-engine.com/p5-automatic-boiler-pressure-regulator-p-156.html#.X1EhiHkzbIU
Examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHSrvRRYzNc or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dFmxZs5vOQ

Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 04, 2020, 12:56:25 AM
rhavrane,
Will study your video and see how I could connect one to my steam plant.
Good price.
Love your boats!


Thanks
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 12, 2020, 12:11:25 AM
Quick test today - all good.
Well after a little leak in my "oiler", tightening all the pipes and quick fix from the local brass fitter I finally got my boat in the water (all be it my pool) to do a test.
Have to rework the throttle as reverse is weak and not getting full power I think the little Clyde can do.


But - very happy , and thanks for all the encouragement.
Hope to hit the pond this week before the it ices up - hahaha.
Love my country Canada, just gets cold too early.


http://www.morfa.ca/firstlaunch.mp4


Derek
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Jerry C on September 12, 2020, 01:32:53 AM
Y Draig Goch!  You jammy "illigitimate" ", I have to blow my pool up!!
Well done you. Don’t expect astern to be as fast as ahead as prop inefficient astern. Won’t steer either.
Jerry.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 12, 2020, 07:27:04 AM
Bonjour Derek,
You made a great job and I have just one concern, where is the whistle  ok2  ?
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 12, 2020, 02:27:36 PM
Funny you should ask as I was going to to post a question.
How to tune a steam whistle? Any suggestions?
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 12, 2020, 03:05:53 PM
Bonjour Derek,
If the whistle is correctly buit, you need to unscrew the nut on the top of the whistle and screw/unscrew its body to find the right tone at your working pressure.
Here an example of the same kind of whistle operating at about 30 PSI : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhpJoPB0eAY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhpJoPB0eAY)
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 12, 2020, 03:34:13 PM
Bonjour back,
Nice sound.

Thanks, will give it a go and thanks for the video.
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: plastic on September 12, 2020, 06:37:06 PM
I'm not into steam models but I've worked a lot with autoclaves.       Surely you would always want the gas to run out first because the process of conversion of water to steam will keep the boiler temperature / pressure within its safe design levels.       Directly there's no more water, the temperature of the whole system can rise up to the temperature of the burner flame (assuming no heat losses).
I'd guess that the boiler would probably survive that excursion - but what about the model built around it?     All that wood and plastic and paint will suffer damage or even catch fire.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on September 12, 2020, 07:06:12 PM
Have been watching this discussion with interest since the old school rule/advice that I was given - make sure the gas runs out before the water - seems to be falling out of use. When we were able to meet and attend shows, in my quest to learn about steam plant in boats I spoke with many model owners who were replacing their refillable gas tanks. The refillable gas tank could be filled by weight with a known quantity of gas to ensure it was empty before the water ran out. Now these tanks are being replaced with the disposable cartridges with much higher capacity. While there are many good reasons for doing this, it does leave the model vulnerable should it become stuck by weed or other debris - so methods of isolating the gas remotely or automatically need to be given consideration. Some models are fitted with devices that automatically turn the gas down to a pilot flame but even these can still leave an empty boiler cooking in the middle of the lake. I guess there are many ways that mayhemers have achieved remote gas shut off that would be worth including in your build
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 12, 2020, 07:42:59 PM
DBS88 and plastic — could not agree more - that is why I posted the question and spending my early day with my boat trying to find the sweet spot on the timing side.
If I get a bigger boat, I like the shut-off value approach. Will need to research it a lot more.


[/size]rhavrane — thanks for the advice/help — my tuning of the whistle www.morfa.ca/tuning.mp4

[/size]Cheers,
[/size]Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 13, 2020, 09:14:22 PM
Bonjour Derek,
Well done and happy to have been able to help you  :-))
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on September 16, 2020, 04:51:29 PM
If you run out of water before gas the boiler will get hot enough to charcoal and wood lagging which may eventually cause a fire. I speak from experience! If you can get to the model quick enough then no problems but otherwise the model can be destroyed which may then cause a problem with a half filled gas tank - not sure though because as the tempo rises the gas pressure rises so the flame gets bigger and exhausts the gas tank. Not something I care to put into practice.


Obvious solution is to use a gas valve to shut off the supply or some way to put the flame out remotely but in the old days when radio was more expensive that meant another channel!


Its all good fun and every time I sail a steam model it reminds me parts get hot!!  :-)
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 16, 2020, 06:38:39 PM
Bonjour Geoff,
Thanks to you message, I note that I forgot to mention another accessory for gas safety which doesn't need a channel, the automatic safety gas valve based on the lack of pressure at the end of the water in the boiler, see at 2'30" (combined to a double daphragm gas regulator) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoE4gl1qtw&ab (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoE4gl1qtw&ab)
 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on September 16, 2020, 07:19:17 PM
Rhaphael have watched the video with great interest please would you let us know where to get these valves from since they certainly look very good
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 16, 2020, 09:26:58 PM
Bonjour Dave,
This specific safety valve and the handset are made by Fabrice ANTON Bretagne, french manufacturer whose site is : http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/ (http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/)
He makes the accessories on demand, even if his site is not updated with all his products.


 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: derekwarner on September 16, 2020, 10:34:27 PM
Raphael........the Swiss Company Kramer [ANTON distributor] has always had a far better WEB detail listing for the ANTON product which appears to be near complete with the more common products


Currently Kramer lists 
ANTON Elegance Gas regulator = in production CHF 288 [Swiss Franc] = $433.66 AUD
ANTON Elegance Stop valve = no longer in production [ similar price to the Regulator ....12 months? ago]
ANTON Elco Gas regulator = no longer in production

I have an ANTON V71, which is the same as the Elco Gas regulator.......works well $270.00 AUD many years ago.......not as sophisticated in adjustment as the Elegance or the version from Microcosm   

I do not find any of them on the ANTON WEB site  :o


Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 16, 2020, 11:45:16 PM
Raphaël, et al,

I am not sure I fully understand the differences in the gas regulators other than the price. Are they apples to apples or mixed fruit.
Some people liked the BIX029 from Forest Classics in the UK for 60 pounds with nut assemble or just over $100 CDN for me
Then there was talk of the P5 Automatic Boiler Pressure regulator from Microcosm at $70 I assume US so just under $100 CDN for me.
Now we have a suggestion for the Anton Gas regulator for 288 Swiss francs or $420 CDN for me.

Which version is best for my "little" Clyde MSM steam plant?

Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: derekwarner on September 17, 2020, 12:31:08 AM
Morning Derek.......


This is certainly a little disconcerting from a monetary perspective. >>:-( ........ Raphael himself has told us that the Microcosm P5 twin diaphragm gas controller/regulator for $70 US function correctly


When I purchased my ANTON V71 single diaphragm regulator  for ~~$270 AUD, manufacturers had not yet marketed a twin controller/regulator


So the French were the first to manufacture the twin diaphragm controller/regulator, then some years later the generic P5 twin diaphragm controller/regulator appears on the market for approx 1/4 of the cost of the French original...the functionality of the of twin diaphragm unit is technically far superior in over the single diaphragm unit


In 1972 I purchased as French made Renault 12 motor vehicle.........now this Brand has teamed up with Nissan and cross manufacture in many Countries around the World including China


Some people swear by crisp & crunchy Granny Smith apples...others would never go past the slightly sweeter new season rosy red Delicious  {-)


In 2021, if I needed, or were to purchase a new gas accessory for a model boat, it would be without question the P5 from Microcosm

Now with your vessel, any additional component in the existing gas line will require some modification, including rotating the gas inlet tube for the burner I think to the vertically down orientation O0

Derek 


PS...you will need a boiler water or steam pressure source for a gas regulator [irrespective of Brand or type selected]....I see your boiler has a plugged tapping in line with the burner axis, however on the opposite side of the boiler
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 17, 2020, 02:26:01 AM
Thanks, some things to sleep on.
Need to put serious thought on how I might do those modifications.


Again thanks
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on September 17, 2020, 03:11:16 AM
i all I don't want to sound negative but I have been building and sailing steam boats and engines for years now and really can't see the need for for all these very expensive add-ons as all I have ever needed were a boiler feed pump with bypass and full burner also sailing in short runs 20 min or so to check should not run out of water  keep it simple.
Cheers
John
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 17, 2020, 03:48:48 AM
Good points, open to all options, do nothing to modify.
Thanks
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: derekwarner on September 17, 2020, 04:57:41 AM
I know that John..... southsteyene2 would never offer a negative comment.....and his point is certainly correct  O0 .......saying this, I am not aware of a marketed option for an engine driven boiler feed pump for his MSM Clyde setup


Derek ...morfa was simply asking for information on a gas valve setup in Raphaels posting........



I was going to add to my earlier post ...buy a $10.00 stop watch with an alarm, but thought that sounded a little tongue in cheek


Derek ..[in OZ]
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on September 17, 2020, 07:31:55 AM
Bonjour,
I woudn'nt have imagined so many reactions to my post. As French collector, I have always built my steam plants with metric measures and bought my accessories to Anton or JMC (https://www.jmc-vapeur.fr/ (https://www.jmc-vapeur.fr/)) Especially, the first one offers a 2mm piped gas line and JMC a 3 mm one.

Based on the prices I know, as I guess resellers take their margin, when I recently discovered Microcosm, Jin's products were almost half the price of my Frebch manufacturers so I tested him. Objectively, the quality is not equal but is worth its prices.   

Examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDF7jQmvvRo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDF7jQmvvRo) or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnNkqDPZnWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnNkqDPZnWw)

Besides this, I fully understand and agree with John, all these accesories are not mandatry at all... but to my opinion, as they exist, they are reassuring.

One of my first boats had not a RC safety gas valve, a leaf blocked it in the middle of the basin, I went to get it barefoot and ended up in the hospital after stepping on a shard of a bottle  :((

I do not know if Anton goes on building or not these accessories, if you would be interested in one pg them, you would contact him, I am not at all in his business !
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 17, 2020, 08:00:14 AM
Hi all, well myself and Malcolm Beak started the ball rolling in November 1988 by publishing the automatic water level controller in Radio Control Boat Modeller magazine, and that was quickly followed by Malcolm's gas pressure regulator. valve. This was intended to allow a steam boat to sit out on the water with full pressure and the gas supply turned down until called upon and so not wasting gas or losing steam through the pressure release system.

The original gas pressure valve was constructed and quite cheap in parts.  The original open launch 'Cyril' has the same working parts from 1988 and is still working and comes out regularly for running.  The electronics were robust in choice of components and have also performed over the years.

I could ask Malcolm to put up his gas valve construction drawings if wanted?
 I had the same system in my Streamlinia which was on the St. Albans club stand in the Model Engineering exhibition the following year.  That worked very well.  I did go electric but that was a quest for speed rather than anything else.

To Southsteyne2 I can only say that is what Cheddar Models said to us when we demonstrated the system to them.  However they were quick to start looking at a similar water level control system and although using a different sensing method, within the year were selling their own kit to do the same job!

The cost of parts for our system was less than a fiver, I think the CM version was double that plus a nought.
Regards
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: frazer heslop on September 17, 2020, 11:26:56 AM
Although Malcoms design is excellent you have to be in a position to be able to make it for yourself. Also from memory if using the original magazine build there is/was a problem with some pics shown back to front.
I made a couple of them in bronze not alloy as it furs up as does one of the French ? designs
I now run only basic set ups keeping it as simple as possible and would simply fit a hand pump bringing her along side to check the water level on a regular basis.
Another option not mentioned would be to fit a Goodall valve in the boiler and use a simple spray bottle as a pump as per the small loco guys use. This is what is fitted to my ongoing build as the boat is a bit small to get a hand pump fitted
Im surprised the plants makers dont offer an engine driven pump although it would be a simple job to make one again you have to be able to do so
cheers
frazer


 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 17, 2020, 12:00:35 PM
Hi Fraser H, I know there was a publishers error with one wire not right but that was corrected.  I did not know there were any transposed photos though.  But over the years things move on and experience is gained so thanks for your information. 

The only thing that annoys is, as did happen, someone announced to me they had a better one!  Intrigued, I checked the circuit but it was very basic and did not take into account any failsafe which the original circuit had.  I think what was meant that there were less components! 

These days if anyone would take the trouble my circuit could be reduced to half a postage stamp size but with all the things needed to run a steam boat there is not much point.
I was with Malcolm yesterday and he was showing me his latest ideas in steam engines for model boats, I was impressed.
Best regards
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: frazer heslop on September 17, 2020, 09:22:47 PM
Hi Roy, I built the circuit as published cannot remember a wiring problem. The system worked very well although I think I had to substitute the transistors not a mayor problem to overcome
I've seen a few circuits that have no  on/off delay so tend to end up with the inevitable problems
The transposed pics are for the gas regulator not the electronics

Guess now an op amp would be the way to go although my electronic knowledge is about 30 years out of date
I enjoyed building Malcolms MB22 engine a cracking little thing that punches above its weight.
I can understand the need for a gas safety cut off valve and also a regulator but have found in the small boats I now play with KISS rules OK
At the moment playing with a simple no tube flue boiler with a radiant burner coupled to a simple self starting single double acting wobbler just for the fun of it
Genuinely pleased to hear that Malcolm is still actively building and designing a true gentleman who has been kind enough to help when needed.
Keep well
kindest regards
frazer 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: belli on September 17, 2020, 09:52:03 PM
Hi Roy,
I would very much like to see the electronics, please post if you have the info.  Are the gas regulators the same as mentioned in Stan Bray's book?  I'll need to pull the book out to check.  Were these updated in anyway?
One issue is, I think MB was a jeweler and I guess could make these really small little gems as that was his skill, regrettably my fat fingers would never allow that.  I wanted to build the MB22 (?) engine as a lock-down project but it's just too tiny for me......
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 17, 2020, 10:03:16 PM
Hi Frazer don't get too effusive he reads this stuff and we don't want it going to his head!
I agree that MB 22 is a lovely engine, that is what was in my Streamlinia, and as long as we could keep the steam pressure up to 30 lbs. the engine would make her plane, just like in the adverts. 

Having seen an original with the original engine the performance is pathetic!   It just pootles along.  I had designed a rev counter I made 2 and Malcolm has the other ( a 2 off 555 circuit) and we found that a brass 2 inch prop running at 2000 revs was what was needed to plane a Streamlinia.  We used to have great fun testing etc,
As an aside I was always concerned about setting up the rev counter for accuracy and by chance I pointed it at a neon light and that registered as 3000 rpm.  Obvious when you think about it.
With that data I built a dummy plastic boiler and the gearbox I was using looked just like a turbine so I put plastic feed tubes in and it fooled quite a lot of steam enthusiasts.  The 9v 5 pole HFM motor slightly geared down but running on 12 volts gave 2000 rpm and the 2 X 6 volt SLA's hidden under the boiler weighed the same as a steam plant and she planes for 40 minutes.

My electronics stopped just before surface mounted stuff, and probably like yourself it started on valves!  What ever happened to suppressor triggered phantastrons?  I learnt mine as a techie in the RAF on a/c radar.
Regarding that w/l control circuit I had an odd experience.  The club puts on an annual model show, must have been in 1989 and I went out to the lads selling tickets to relieve them for lunch a few minutes later a chap arrived and bought a ticket.  Then he got out that issue of the magazine and turned to the circuit and told me he was having trouble with it could anyone help?

 I asked him how he knew about the exhibition and he said he was on holiday from South Aftrica and saw the advert on passing the school!  I told him it was his lucky day and Malcolm and I sorted him out.  He came and said goodbye before he left and he was just slightly stunned at the chance of that happening.
regards
Roy





Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 17, 2020, 10:26:58 PM
Hi Belli, it might take me a time to find the circuit.  It is very basic and uses Veroboard, is that what you call it as well?  The circuit uses 2  X 556 chips these are 2 555 chips in one 14 pin chip.  I am not sure that these are still available.

 There are logically 2 parts to the circuit a transistor with an input from the sensing rod in the boiler which incorporates a 2 second delay then the conversion to a digital signal.  I seem to remember a second transistor which inverts the o/p so that the default is pumping water.  The second 556 has a simple drive to a standard servo that is spread over a 1 and 2 milli second pulse 50 times a second.  That is the normal servo control signal.
That sums up the idea and nowadays I would probably do it differently, but this was 35 years ago!

You also need an engine driven water pump although I did a special for someone who wanted to pump water using an electric motor.
The boiler needs a port for the water to be pumped in and on the top an insulated hole for the sensor rod to be sealed in.
So not just some electronics it does need some engineering.

Just to correct you Malcolm used to make jewelry as a hobby he is/was a research Boffin working for a UK government Agency.
We are both past our 80th. birthdays and it was all a long while ago!
regards
Roy


Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: frazer heslop on September 17, 2020, 10:30:17 PM
Im sure that is not the case and any accolades he may receive are well earned.
Oh yes the good old days pre trading standards  .No way could the original plant have made her plane
She is on my build list once I get my grubby hands on one to copy
I simplified the MB22 valve design using gauge 1 practice re the valve and ports and dont think the performance has suffered to any measurable degree
Started out on miniature valves and finished with surface mount for a well known Korean company , Did a little work for Marconi  ;)
Getting back to the original post and sorry for taking it off track
Paddleducks from memory have the drawings
cheers
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 17, 2020, 10:39:38 PM
Hi Frazer I think I can find a spare set of plans for Streamlinia.  Mine are copied from the 1937 Hobbies Annual!.

 It does suggest that you take a 40 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch piece of pine and start carving!  I made mine with bulkheads and 1/16th. ply.  You will need a spray strip if you want a dry deck. 

There are rather a lot of different tops as well.  After WW2 there was a radio controlled version sold as well.
I hope I have put up a photo as well.  You can see my spoof turbine!

regards
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: frazer heslop on September 17, 2020, 10:50:20 PM
Hi Roy, many thanks I will pm you tomorrow as sister bacteria is telling me in no uncertain way its bed time and I have to do as Im told
Keep well. Ho hum it keeps the peace
kind regards
Frazer
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: belli on September 19, 2020, 08:49:12 PM
Here's a scan of MB's valve.  Regrettably I don't have more details than this.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: belli on September 19, 2020, 09:03:59 PM
Here is Roy Amsbury's electronic level gauge.  Transistors were listed as ZTX302 which I think is a fairly standard NPN part (could use BC337, 2N4401). 
I think RH has a video where the boat owner put the LEDs in a signal light at the front so that he could see the levels, I guess you could use the NAV lights too...
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: belli on September 19, 2020, 09:10:44 PM
This post is a little OT but I'm not sure where to put it:
My first passion is really aero modelling and those fellows outnumber the steam boat fellows by about 1000:1.   The aeromodellers have a large following of people building electronic gadgets of every description, from single channel radios to full telemetry radios with all designs and code posted freely.  To add telemetry for the steam boats would be relatively trivial by today's efforts, the TX could display boiler pressure, engine speed, gas consumption and so on without adding too much mass to the boat.  The tricky bit might be the sensors themselves as commercial units would be a bit pricey but certainly doable.  There might be forums where these exist but I haven't looked for them.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 19, 2020, 09:26:48 PM
Hi the probe system in the boiler only needs 1 probe.  This is established at the required water level.  The electronics I developed just activate as the water level falls below this level.  Then there is a 2 second delay this is to eliminate water sloshing about in the boiler and giving false responses and also possible over filling of the boiler.  Trust me it works.
 
There are LED's in the circuit and these have their connections at the point where things happen.  e.g. if the servo is called then the LED is in this circuit.  Not indicating that the servo should be called.  I used ZTX 302's but any similar PNP transistor would do.

Malcolm designed a small vertical boiler which did not respond as expected to the electronics.  After Malcolm cut away part of the boiler and fitted a viewing panel it could be seen that the very vigourous water boiling issuing through an external heating tube was squirting water straight on to the probe.

The circuitry that signals the servo to move could be used operate a relay.  The relay could then switch on an electric pump to using a clean internal water supply.  This would take away the need to have a water pump driven by the steam engine and also the electronics that drive the servo.

Regards
Roy




Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 19, 2020, 09:44:20 PM
Hello Derek in Oz, hope all well my son keeps me upto date on the virus situation I gather there are 27000 Oz residents trying to return home!

Just picking up on an earlier remark you made about Renault and Nissan.  My son in law was a senior manager in Nissan at the time and He personally showed around the Renault contingent.  There were a lot of mutterings and the final opinion of Renault was that Nissan cars were 'over engineered'!  I think they were building Primeras at the Sunderland factory at the time.

 I had one of these a 2 litre automatic, kindly supplied via my daughter also a Nissan Manager and I kept it for 7 years, the only thing that failed were the windscreen wipers replaced in the first month under warranty.
I like 'over engineering'
regards
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: frazer heslop on September 19, 2020, 09:49:26 PM
I had a similar problem with a horizontal centre  flued boiler as per Peter Arnots V4 one of the water tubes was directly inline with the level probe and gave false level readings. Not a problem with the circuit just the muppet who built the boiler %% . This was solved by placing the probe in a pocket
Although I agree modern RC would do the job with a pressure sensor . There would be no fun in buying it of the shelf
Basically a Schmitt trigger with anti bounce and a couple of timers
All good fun and thanks again Roy and Malcolm .Gentleman in the true sense of the word
Re Nissan I had 4 of the French companies diesel vans that all blew the turbos at 120k to 130K and three other that blew the diffs and you could cut the gears with a file ho hummm
Keep well all
Kindest regards
frazer 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: KNO3 on September 20, 2020, 09:24:55 AM
Hello belli, you are right.  Telemetry had established itself, but not yet much in the stream boat gibt. The reason is the lack of useful commercial sensors for a steam plant.
One would need at least:
- boiler pressure (or temperature, as it is directly related to pressure)
- water level
Optional but nice to have:
- fuel tank level
- engine rpm

What I was thinking: I could do away with all these sensors if I could install a tiny camera in the boat to show me the water gauge and pressure gauge on a screen on my r/c unit.

Is there such a thing?
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 20, 2020, 10:44:54 AM
Hi I am not up in these things but you could set up a hot spot with your mobile phone and place it in the boat and I think a web cam could transmit pictures to another phone, but not sure how far.

The FSV sysatem in drones is an option as well, do not know costs though.  Is live video a compromise?
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Jerry C on September 20, 2020, 11:06:13 AM
I was thinking of a drone system. I thought it was called p2p (person to person) but can’t find anything.  Monitor attached to r/c transmitter with tiny camera in the boat looking at sight glass and pressure gauge.
Jerry.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 20, 2020, 11:22:50 AM
Hi I think I got the abreviation wrong it Is First Person Viewing.  Check out FPV for on board flight viewing.
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on September 21, 2020, 08:52:58 AM
This is proving to be a very interesting discussion. I have two steam tugs, one has the full cheddar automatic boiler control system (ABC) the second tug has no controls other than a sight glass and safety valve. The ABC works well using the pressure/temp sensor to control the gas supply (full flame or pilot flame), the optical sensor on the sight glass controls a by pass valve so the engine driven pumps are either filling the boiler or pumping water round a loop to and from the onboard tanks. There is also a low water warning for the on board tanks. The second tug is new to me and certainly makes me nervous in its use - it has a disposable gas tank so the gas will not run out before the water so I use the cheap stop watch method and bring it in after about 12 mins. I wish to add controls so am looking first to add a servo controlled gas shut off so in the event of unforeseen circumstances the gas can be shut off, next gas control, either mechanical or electrical to manage the flame so as to use both steam and gas more efficiently to achieve longer running times. A few months I also began investigating the use of cross over tech from drones, and see great possibilities for the use of cameras, gps and other telemetry. But first need to address the basic issues of making sure I do not end up with a stranded boat that has an uncontrolled flame in the boiler.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 21, 2020, 04:28:24 PM
With most of the Boilers and engines I have run in Boats I have depended on the stop watch and cruse by slowly method. This is not because I am not interested in adding all the bells, whistles and electronic doodads, but sometimes due to cost (being retired and this not my only hobby), but quite obtain due to lack of initiative and others to bounce ideas off of. I belong to both a model boat club and a model engineering society, but in both of them I am the only one interested in this aspect of modelling.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 22, 2020, 07:30:32 PM
This discussion fascinated me and the high level of science vs the K.I.S.S principles. When I started this, I thought it was a simple question that probably had a very simple answer - but it has really opened my mind to "steam" and all its vagaries. I thought it was just a matter of sticking a regulator on and adjust my piping and "bob's your uncle".


But I think in the short term I am going to go the simple route but add a little technology. I like ROYCV's approach near the end of the discussion - a simple FPV camera that shows my water level. When it can't be seem (the level that is) time to come ashore. Short and sweet like others mentioned the stopwatch approach. Great ideas, so happy to find this forum and all you "guys". Thanks

A picture from my FPV camera.
Cheers, be safe
Derek




 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: belli on September 22, 2020, 09:02:30 PM
The simplest solutions are often the best....     :-))
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: derekwarner on September 22, 2020, 10:21:53 PM
Most matters can actually benefit by the completion of a Risk Analysis Study..... :-)) .

These days, a PhD [in Thought Logic for the 22nd Century] [from a highly regarded University] can assist in the final decision making processes and most importantly the result


You know simple things like the what is the IP rating for the electronics & dust protection {against ingress} of your FPV camera?, and what are the electrical Ev characteristics?....could it spark a gas leak?...what would happen if you forgot to charge the camera battery?


Grandpa didn't quite have these challenges, nor the PhD   {-)


Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Jerry C on September 23, 2020, 12:04:59 PM
Da iawn  Morfa. That’s what I was getting at.
Jerry.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 23, 2020, 12:10:59 PM
Hi there is an old engine driver's solution to easily reading the sight glass on a boiler.

If you place an obviously striped board behind the glass, when there is water present it alters the angle of the stripes and shows up very easilly to the human eye.
regards
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: plastic on September 23, 2020, 03:59:57 PM
Most matters can actually benefit by the completion of a Risk Analysis Study..... :-)) .

You know simple things like the what is the IP rating for the electronics & dust protection {against ingress} of your FPV camera?, and what are the electrical Evcharacteristics?....could it spark a gas leak?...what would happen if you forgot to charge the camera battery?

Derek
Do you ever consider that with your receiver and servos? 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 23, 2020, 04:26:16 PM
plastic,


I didn't but will be careful. Most of my electrics are in the front end away from the gas and burner but I guess anything can happen.
But that won't stop me "sailing" and enjoying the craft.


Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 25, 2020, 01:11:16 AM
This issue did not stop me from sailing - will spend the winter deciding which simple route to take.
Spent a fine Fall evening at the pond enjoying my boat, the comradery of my club, and a fine time outdoors to forget COVID-19.
http://www.morfa.ca/brownsinlet2.mp4

Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Jerry C on September 25, 2020, 02:15:10 AM
Derek, I’ve managed for 9 years with “Wear”, which is fitted with engine driven feed pump and bypass valve, by doing sail by to observe pressure and level. I sailed on Llyn Padarn at Llanberis  with no problems. Also sailed her on Llangollen canal between Lion Quays and Chirk Tunnel. I take water from the lake or canal as it’s very clean and had no problems with lime scale. Prop never picks up weed.  At the end of every season I put dilute citric acid in the boiler but never seen any fizzing or evidence of scale build up.
Jerry.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on September 25, 2020, 03:59:41 AM
Hi dbs88 you can shut down the gas with a simple pico switch connected to the receiver and then to a gas cutoff valve with no need for a servo
,yes you are right weed or twigs around the prop can ruin the day.

Cheers
John

Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on September 26, 2020, 12:37:01 AM
Hi dbs88  these are the switches I use to shut down the gas supply in an emergency never used it yet but you never know  .https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-DC-Electric-Solenoid-Air-Valve-1-8-2-Way-Pneumatic-Aluminum-Gas-Liquid-AU/312895090845?hash=item48da00309d:g:6DYAAOSwGEFd-Ua3&frcectupt=true  The pico switch can be purchased at Hobbyeking
Cheers
John
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: KNO3 on September 26, 2020, 10:32:34 AM
Interesting solution John,  seems easy enough. But aren't those 12V solenoid valves too large for a model boat?  What pipe connections do you use?
I would appreciate some photos of your installation.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: derekwarner on September 26, 2020, 10:46:17 AM
Evening Calin...if you log onto the link from John, then scroll down....images, dimensions & the full specification is listed


I am still unsure what triggers the alarm/control signal to shut down the 12Vdc power, to allow the N/C valve to shut & isolate gas from the boiler burner?


Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: JimG on September 26, 2020, 01:31:17 PM
Check out the parts available for model jets, these use a solenoid valve to stop the fuel flow. This set are 28mm wide, 35mm across the festo fittings and 10mm deep. Would probably need altering to use the normal pipes for gas but the festo fittings are screw in. They have to pass up to 150ml of liquid fuel per minute at full throttle so should pass a lot more gas.https://www.turbinesolutions.co.uk/solenoid-valve-4mm (https://www.turbinesolutions.co.uk/solenoid-valve-4mm)
Jim
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on September 27, 2020, 12:02:29 AM
Derek the pico switch for gas on-off is actuated by the transmitter or auto whenever the power to the solenoid switch is interrupted .
Cheers
John
 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: derekwarner on September 27, 2020, 03:14:26 AM

Thanks John.....I was not aware of such a device.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGZakWwZUYQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGZakWwZUYQ)


When I add install both the solenoid valve + the Pico switch it into my theoretical Risk Analysis Study, I get  5 x  :-)) ....4 x <*< ...and 1 x :embarrassed:

One would think that the newer current 2.4GHz signal reliability would be ~~95% as opposed to 27mHz reliability of ~~80% for a surface water model vessels....as opposed to underwater? or in the air environments?

Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on September 27, 2020, 08:21:01 PM
This topic is showing the true power and strength of this Forum, as we learn from each other and share experiences, whilst I did not start this topic i am truly benefitting from it so thank you.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 27, 2020, 08:28:38 PM
DBS88,
I could not agree with you more. I started the question - it went from a grade 3 math question to a Master's degree answer.
I too have learned a lot.

I look forward to having my morning coffee (5 hours back from UK and hours back from OZ) and reading the threads and get an education. I guess that's why they call it life-long learning.
Cheers,
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 28, 2020, 03:37:01 AM
Hi it's me again, no one has mentioned the size of the gas tank.  The volume stored in liquid form can only supply so much gas and if called upon for more, it gets colder and freezes up.  If you want a bigger gas flow then a larger tank is needed.

Back in the late 80s we experimented with warming up the camping gas cannister with varied results.  Too much heat to the cannister and the gas pressure expanded thick walled neoprene tube like a balloon!  This happened in my Streamlinia when she was stationary looking to build up steam pressure to plane.  Malcolm reduced the size of the copper warming plate, but eventually we decided to abandon that experiment.  The gas cannisters vary in size so the larger the cannister the more gas it will supply without cooling over much. I presume that is still true?

A friend has a steam driven toy workshop (Mamod and Wilesco accessories) which I am allowed to operate on my own.  This has two proper engineering type stationary engines driving the toys.  The steam is generated from a large boiler about 30cms long and has a blowlamp inserted for the heat.  We use a big 30cm diameter gas container and this stays just cool although must be using supplying a fair quantity of gas.
 In an afternoon of operating we get through about 5 - 6 litres of water.  So it is all action keeping an eye on the water level sight glass, the water is pumped into the boiler via an engine driven pump but this is sort of balanced.  However inattention leads to some frantic hand pumping of the water into the boiler.  All that plus the frequent application of oil to the moving parts.  The stationary engines have displacement lubricators and they last very well.

The pressure of the steam is surprisingly low managing to operate the two stationary engines at about 5 pounds pressure.  It is best to dress when operating in one piece workmans clothes but that adds to the occasion as the children love it.  It all operates at eye level for them.

So managing a distant steam boat does need some thought and reliable equipment.  We only had one fire in my Streamlinia which was from the gas fuel line, the boat was quickly brought in and the fire dealt with, the paint was slightly blackened but not burnt.  However that might not be so good for a detailed model.
The club has a steam driven Envoy tug with twin Cheddar engines and water level control (not mine) and is beautifully set up and runs like a sewing machine and was a small feature in Model Boats magazine that was prompted by myself after a warning from elsewhere not to expect too much.  This boat just requires topping up with water and uses camping gas supply.

 It could almost seem to be electric powered but for the hot steam out of the funnel.  This same member built a steam lorry kit with live steam and RC and that ran remarkably well having instant forward and reverse.  His day job was assembling Electron microscopes so he was very precise in his hobbies as well.  He died last year much too early as well.
Has anyone tried using a 'French blow lamp' they can be a lot of 'fun' as well.  During one experiment I literally fled the area much to the laughter of Malcolm and friend.

Bye for now.
Roy


Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 28, 2020, 03:47:52 PM
I have had two fires on Model Steam Boats;
The first one was a boat I built in High School back in the 1960s. I had built everything in the school shops except for the safety valve, which the instructor insisted I buy. I should have made my own, because we think that that was the part that failed The model was in the middle of a small bay at a friends cottage, when the safety valve lifted and then there was a bang. With the bang flames started appearing, and my buddy started spraying it with water from his model fireboat. My model started to get lower in the water and I suggested he push it ashore instead of filling it with water. Well it sunk before it made shore and was never found even with the help of scuba gear.
The second fire was about 15 years back, my model Launch had weeds tangle its prop. One of the other boaters tried pushing it back to dock. When the models were about twenty feet from shore we noticed that there was a flame coming from the side of the gas burner as well as the front where it should have been. While this was happening all the other Modellers had gathered around, when the models approached the end of the launching dock I went out to retrieve it. I bent down to look at the model to decide whether I could just shut off the gas supply or whether I would have to push the model under if the flame was heating the gas tank. Fortunatly I only had to shut the gas supply off and use a wet cloth to smother the woodwork that was scorched. I then took a deep breath and straightened up and looked around. Where a few minute earlier there had been a crowed of modelers watching, I was alone on the dock with no-one within twenty feet of me, even the modeler who's boat had been pushing mine ashore was twenty feet back. Since then all my gas powered model steam powered boats will have a remote shut off valve.
Gerald.           
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on September 28, 2020, 04:41:21 PM
I've experienced one small fire and one bad scorching: Common cause for both in a way!


The Fire.


Model Battleship Canopus 53" long 1899 using Cheddar Models Puffin unit. All worked well in the bath but not on the water with the burner going out every 6 mins or so so it was not unusual for the model to stop. On this occasion the model stopped and I assumed the flame had gone out. Not so as I'd run out of water and the boiler just got hotter and hotter until the wooden lagging charcoaled and gave of black smoke out the funnels. Yes very realistic but not normal! Had to wade out on 5th December to just below the delicate parts - as I got there a small flame appeared on the boat deck which was easily extinguished. Lifted the superstructure deck off and turned the gas off. The lagging looked like it had exploded but due to the insulation and metal shielding under the deck the only damage to the model was one deck light.


Cure:


1) fitted a small windscreen washer which pumps a jet of water onto the blowlamp burner so I can put it out remotely


2) Because the boiler is completely enclosed, in the bath hot oxygen starved air could exit through the cowling vents. On the move this was precluded by the force of the air due to motion, so the starved air gradually increased until it reached the burner putting it out. As soon as the deck was lifted the hot air went up and fresh air dropped in and the burner would relight - repeat the process as many times as you like! Lack of water stopped the model so no motion so the burner continued to burn. Solution was to open some side gun ports and enlarge some deck gratings to facilitate better air flow.


No damage to the boiler and Cheddar confirmed you can't un silver solder one of their boilers with a single blow-lamp.


 
The scorching


In my model of Velox 1904 destroyer I just mistimed it and the boiler ran out of water. Lagging scorched badly but no damage to the model otherwise. I was able to retrieve the model quickly but it was still very hot.


Cure: Inserted a gas cut off valve to the gas can be turned off remotely. In turn this meant replacing the radio as it was only 2 channel - now four and use one for the gas valve. I can't use a water pump as Velox has a ceramic burner and even if I could facilitate access it would shatter when water hit it.


Cheers


Geoff
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on September 28, 2020, 05:49:33 PM
Geoff sorry to hear that you suffered two incidents but glad to hear no serious harm done, it would be lovely to see photos and or an explanation of how you achieved the remote gas cut off. Just this week a fellow club member told me he sent his electric tug off to rescue a yacht that had blown into the reeds, his tug ended up with a plastic dog pooh bag wrapped round the prop result burned out motor so it can happen anywhere anytime - it could have been me with my Steam Tug and no gas control!!!. So I am looking to fit remote gas cut off in a boat I am refurbishing and also into the new build that I am collecting the materials for. Heres a photo of the burner that came with the boat I am refurbishing - can you imagine sending out your boat into the middle of a lake with a flame like that and no way of controlling it remotely !!!- the flame would not look out of place beneath a NASA rocket. Anyway to cut a long story short the burner does not look right so will not be using it, currently awaiting a new burner specially made by Pendle Steam and will be fitting gas controls.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on September 28, 2020, 11:42:45 PM
Derek whilst the mathematics look good unfortunately I don't think they apply in this situation ,simply because hopefully the system would most likely be used once or so in an emergency
Cheers
John
 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on September 28, 2020, 11:45:21 PM
Hi all another way to help with freezing gas tanks is to use two tanks with a tee piece.
Cheers
John
Title: Freezing tanks and Hot boilers
Post by: carlfmiller on September 29, 2020, 12:19:30 AM
Freezing gas tank was a big issue on this set-up. I fitted a shaped copper block between the boiler face and the gas tank to transfer heat. That worked.  Then I made a bigger tank (Pendle). I had the copper block ready to use on  another boat with Jin's 3" boiler and M29, but the P5 gas regulator made it unnecessary. No cold weather operation for me, so can't speak to a universal solution. Oohya George suggested a fold of copper sheet between boiler and tank; that keeps itself in place (like a spring)  and easy to adjust how much heat gets transferred by changing the width.


Reading this thread, on the MSM Mildura gear now I worry that there is so much gas the water will run out, so it is definitely time to keep using the stop watch (everybody's phone has a timer). The idea of timIng a "hot run" of the burner with the tank full makes good sense, thank you Rafael. Can adjust the fill level (weight) so it runs out before the water.


This thread looks like it hit the forum's funny bone! (keep it up, we're learning a lot)


-Carl




Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: KBIO on September 29, 2020, 08:06:14 AM
Hello!
I've been reading this post again and I read a lot about gas regulation, gas shutoff  safety valve but I can't find the reason  why the fire has started ?
According to my experience, 99% of the of the time , it is due to a solid loose connection , or worn out and leaking slightly. Gas accumulates  inside the bottom of the boat and fires up when the level hits the burner.
Interesting to get more information on the origin of the fire , though!
Also, concerning the gas tank freezing, due to liquid gaz evaporation in the tank => the bigger the gas jet is, the faster the tank freezes , one solution to solve the problème is to use liquid phase on the burner. Above all for big burners.
At standards condition: - 1 drop of liquid butane / propane  is equivalent to +/- 270 times its volume.
Easy then to understand that it better to warm up the liquid out of the tank than inside it.
And so easy to implement that after you never get back to gaseous phase.
 {-) The fire brigade may be under pressure  when your boiler is not ! Too bad!! :embarrassed:
Regards.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on September 29, 2020, 03:09:43 PM
I've been reading this post again and I read a lot about gas regulation, gas shutoff  safety valve but I can't find the reason  why the fire has started ?Hi KBIO   I believe the main fear here is the model can become stranded allowing the boiler to run dry and igniting cladding followed by total loss of the model.
CheersJohn
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 29, 2020, 03:32:13 PM
John,
Thanks for the explanation re: Gas accumulates  inside the bottom of the boat and fires up when the level hits the burner.
When I do a refill and do the first start with the igniter in the top, I get a pop of unused gas burn-off. Is that natural?
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 29, 2020, 03:46:14 PM
The recommended procedure for refilling gas tanks is to remove them from the model and fill them in a well ventilated area. When you can not remove the tank and must fill it in the model, it is best to use some method of blowing spilt gas out of the model, do not use canned air as most of them contain butane. 
Gerald.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 29, 2020, 04:13:42 PM
Gerald,
My winter project - once sailing season ends and the snow arrives (ugh!) I want to take the tank and make it removeable and off the tray.
Working with a fellow model boat mayhemer about a new longer boat. If that becomes a reality I will need to factor the position of the gas tank in a new boat.


Lot's to think about. What type of air or apparatus would you suggest to "blow away" the excess gas?


Derek



Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on September 29, 2020, 04:21:02 PM
Carl re gas freezing, thats a very neat installation with the re fillable gas tank being warmed by the burner.
Also very tidy with the gas flow valve, in close proximity, maintaining the flame to deliver the preset boiler pressure eg 45psi - what happens with this type of gas control valve if the boiler runs dry?
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 29, 2020, 04:27:40 PM
Great question DBS88- and the answer is Carl?
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 29, 2020, 04:30:41 PM
Gerald,
My winter project - once sailing season ends and the snow arrives (ugh!) I want to take the tank and make it removeable and off the tray.
Working with a fellow model boat mayhemer about a new longer boat. If that becomes a reality I will need to factor the position of the gas tank in a new boat.


Lot's to think about. What type of air or apparatus would you suggest to "blow away" the excess gas?


Derek
Hi Derek,
I have used a fan from the $ store, the type they sell for summer cooling or some times a good puff of lung power.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on September 29, 2020, 04:32:14 PM
Hi assuming the water in the boiler comes from the surrounding water, not going t happen.  Otherwise keep enough water on board to ensure boredom will set in first.
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 29, 2020, 04:44:15 PM
Gerald,
I have been using the "lung method" but really like the Dollar/Pound Store approach.
Might look into the battery operated version so I can take it to the pond which is remote to power.


Where do you sail in Toronto, my old haunt years ago when I was in the film business — Humber, High Park, Sunny side, Beaches?


Thanks
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 29, 2020, 04:47:34 PM
I have had one boiler run dry a Willesco D48, which uses Butane as fuel. These boilers are soft soldered and the end cap at one end came unsoldered. I cleaned up the inside of the boiler and the end cap, then resoldered the cap back in using Stay-Brite silver bearing solder. This is not a hard Silver Solder and melts about 500 F, which allowed me to resolder the one end without melting any of the other joints. I then hydrostatically tested the boiler to 100psi which was four times the working pressure of 25psi.


Derek,
Most of the guys who sail sheet boats do it at Humber Bay, there are a number of the scale boaters sailing at Bluffers Park where I have sailed a number of times. I have also sailed at Rouge Park Beach a couple of times. I am hopping to do most of my sailing in Hay Bay Nappanee where my son has a trailer.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 29, 2020, 05:01:37 PM
Gerald,
I have a cottage in West Quebec where I hope to sail my new sailboat that is in the planning stages. My lac/pond is deep.
Happy sailing until the freeze.
Derek



Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: carlfmiller on September 29, 2020, 06:05:23 PM
The gas attenuator valve, at least this one (Jin's P5) seems to be a binary operation-- it operates at full gas flow when more steam is needed (this is an adjustable setting), and when satisfied, the gas is reduced to an idle flame. When the water runs out, the steam would slow and stop and the gas valve would think more steam is needed so it would open full and stay that way. So this is definitely not a safety feature.


-Carl
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: carlfmiller on September 29, 2020, 06:17:30 PM
Derek/Morfa re the refillable tank-- it comes to you bolted to the tray, but all you need to do is unbolt it, and replace the nuts on the screws without the tank there-- they become 4 little studs and the tank can come in and out of the boat in a jiffy. Gravity holds it in place.  The gas line nut that makes up to the valve has an easy thread to start, and the knob (nut)  is nicely knurled for easy finger-tightening. Since you are supposed to open the valve a little while the tank is being filled, of course there will be spilled gas, so get the tank out 'o there when refilling. Yikes.


I think you got some longer 3mm screws when the steam plant was shipped-- those can be used to make two of the studs longer if you are worried about maintaining the tank location while the boat moves.


-Carl
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on September 29, 2020, 06:26:44 PM
Thanks good to know and will do it. If I go the route of a longer boat, I will need help with measurements and placement of the MSM steam plant with the gas plant removeable.
Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on September 29, 2020, 07:11:00 PM
Have been giving some thought on how to shut the gas off remotely so thinking of using one of the two position (on/off) switches on the transmitter to operate a 90 degree valve via a servo or other method of operating one of the valve - so turn it on for full gas flow then at the end of a run or in case of a problem turn it to the off position to close off the gas supply - I know very little about rc and electrics so this may or may not be possible but it seems in keeping with the keep it simple logic.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on September 30, 2020, 03:25:46 PM
That's how I do it on Velox. I'll try to get a picture and post it to show the set up. The gas tank is removed to fill it. In terms of heating the gas tank I use the oil separator and place it so it just touches the tank so at the end of a run in cool weather the tank is hand warm which is perfect,. In hot weather its warm to touch but not hot.


On balance I prefer the blowlamp burners to the ceramic burners because I can hear them roaring as the model goes past so I know all is working well.


With Canopus the blowlamp and gas tank are permanently joined so I have to remove both as a single unit to refill and use the schraeder? valve built into the tank. With Velox the tank is separate from the burner using a knurled nut and "O" ring as the seal so is removed from the model and I fill it through the outlet valve with a solid connection to the filling tank. When inverted you can hear the gas trickling in. This works well every time and does not waste much gas.


Cheers


Geoff
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on September 30, 2020, 03:29:44 PM
Derek,


If you light from the top of the funnel, you have a ceramic burner, and its always pops at the top as the gas flares back to the burner - quite normal and nothing to worry about.


Cheers


Geoff
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Jerry C on October 01, 2020, 01:41:34 AM
I designed the steam plant on “Wear” to come out of the boat with less fuss than to remove the gas tank for refilling. I also did a test of putting a load of gas in the boat, letting it settle then igniting it (from a distance). Result, disappointing pop, in visible flame and zero damage. There are no contained spaces for any over pressures to occur unlike tugs and the like. Did have a conflagration at Poachers pub on the cut near Chirk when lighting the boiler via the funnel and accidentally ignited my very expensive BECC Welsh courtesy flag but when I thought of all the cottages the Welsh Nats had burnt down I just thought of it as payback.
Jerry C. 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on October 01, 2020, 02:45:14 PM
Please see attached pictures of the steam installation in Velox. Engine is double acting oscillating of my own design. Boiler is Cheddar Models Puffin Mk 2.


Note the square structure in the engine compartment - this ducts air from a computer fan into the boiler room. Also the inner silver funnel to protect the plastic outer funnel.


The steam valve (Clevdon Steam) will turn off in 90 degrees  and is operated by the servo arm which just pushes it up for off as I don't need to turn it on again if I need to turn it off!


Note the oil separator which is a metal tin which touches the gas tank to keep it warm.


Cheers


Geoff
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on October 01, 2020, 02:47:39 PM
And the last one - damn PC crashed on me twice!



Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on October 01, 2020, 03:24:01 PM
Wow so beautiful yet extricate. Was it a complete scratch build from plans or a hybrid kit?
Such detail - something to aspire to, spending my time now just learning "steam" and all this helps.
Derek/Morfa
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on October 01, 2020, 05:15:16 PM
Thank you . Its all scratch built from plans in "The First Destroyers". The hull is about 4" longer and 1/2" deeper than the plan to allow room and weight and stability for the steam plant but it doesn't notice 1/48 scale.


The superstructure amidships is also 1/2" higher to allow for ventilation slots. There is also an extra hatch positioned so I can see the pressure gauge so some artistic license but the main point was to see if it could be done. Hull is 1/8" balsa planks (which is a new departure for me as its too soft), but covered inside and out with fiberglass and then plated with plastic card down to the waterline. The hull has proved to be quite tough and easily withstands handling. Lots of boiler insulation but when raising steam you can feel the hull gets warm amidships. Weight was a major consideration but in the end I needed about 3 pounds of lead beneath the boiler to bring it down to the correct waterline. Its about  9 years old now. Maximum speed is a fast walk and I get 25 mins sailing before it runs out of water.


Sometimes I got it wrong and nearly set fire to it, hence the modifications with the gas cut off valve!


Cheers


Geoff
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: carlfmiller on October 01, 2020, 06:15:37 PM
Geoff this is extraordinary detail. Your gas cut-off valve is spot-on.  A superb job! I wish I could see Velox on the water.  Just a question, I know nothing about these boats but what are the two arc-shaped things on deck near the rail parallel to the stacks? The white tubes nearby might be torpedos. I cannot imagine what it takes to create such complex miniaturization. I have made some little parts but nothing of this scale. Congrats. Just one more photo please-- a view of the boat from standing back so we can see the whole thing? Or maybe on the water?


Nice!


-Carl
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: belli on October 01, 2020, 09:06:05 PM
I've attached the drawings for a simple gas regulator which I guess is very similar to the commercial units, if the boiler ran out of steam then the gas would open fully.

I thought that MB's design addressed this where if the water ran out then the gas would shut down.  I haven't figured out his design but I think it would be possible to shut the gas off if it fell below a predetermined level.  It might need some kind of manual override for starting up or something.

Edit: Now that I look at the drawing I have no idea how it works...
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: rhavrane on October 01, 2020, 09:48:20 PM
Bonjour belli,
To my opinion, this regulator should possibly not work, I do not see any needle valve allowing the setting of the idle flow. Here two videos which will, I hope, highliht what I presume (and show a possible reason of malfunction) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoVFzwmXbnE and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi7mrO_zvOU
And for fun, listen to the regulation when the burner has the exact power of the machine : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk74P2k8W2o
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on October 02, 2020, 02:05:13 AM

From Roy - "Hi there is an old engine driver's solution to easily reading the sight glass on a boiler.
If you place an obviously striped board behind the glass, when there is water present it alters the angle of the stripes and shows up very easily to the human eye."

Roy,
I like the stripped card idea - where the strips vertical or horizontal.
Might try it with my FPV camera approach.
Derek/morfa


Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on October 02, 2020, 03:58:28 AM
Hi I should have said the stripes are horizuntal, good luck
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: JimG on October 02, 2020, 10:04:42 AM
I don't know if it is still available but you used to get glass tubing for sight glasses with a paint stripe along the length. Water in the glass would magnify the stripe giving a clear difference from the air section.
Jim
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on October 02, 2020, 10:54:44 AM
H Jim that is not what happens!  When the water is present the horizontal stripes will appear at about 45 degrees to the ones that only have air in the sight glass.. Someting to do with the miniscus and or prism effect altering the angle of the light.  So there is an obvious change in what you see when water is present.
Regards
Roy
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: ooyah/2 on October 02, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
Hi Jim is quite correct the sight glass that Jim mentioned was called Selbach tubing and it has a blue stripe moulded into the glass.
It was unavailable for many years but it came back in metric sizes , don't know if it's still available.


George.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: Geoff on October 02, 2020, 05:43:56 PM
Carl,


The "Arc" shaped things are Berthelon collapsible boats as there was very little deck room. The grey round things are rolls of canvass dodgers. There are two single torpedo tubes further aft.


I have some on the water and full pictures somewhere and will try to find them and post them. Thank you for your kind comments which much appreciated.


She is certainly an unusual steam powered model!


On another note I thought about making my own gas cut off valve but wasn't entirely confident I could make it gas tight. On the port side near one of the collapsible boats there is a black open ended tube. This acts as a vent tube to the bottom of the forward compartment - the idea is if there is a tiny gas leak it would suck the gas up (wind and motion) and away. Does no harm!


Cheers


Geoff
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: carlfmiller on October 02, 2020, 07:52:31 PM
Geoff --Sorry for a little shift off-topic, %)  but I was fascinated by the collapsible boat, and in fact found a video of one.  It's a great idea to save space, but  wow putting it together in time of an emergency would be daunting. The company seems to still be active, that's great.


https://www.berthon.co.uk/about-berthon/berthon-history/#tab9Tab


Once you told me what it was I can see every detail like the rudder and tiller and floorboards. Thanks!

-Carl

Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on October 02, 2020, 11:45:00 PM
Geoff 

any uncontrolled gas in a boat is bad news so I would advise stick to an approved commercial valve and check with soapy water for bubbles.
Cheers
John.
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: southsteyne2 on October 02, 2020, 11:48:33 PM
Hi all the latest site glass I purchased had a red line embedded which magnified as the water rose .
Cheers
John
 
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: DBS88 on October 08, 2020, 10:35:26 PM
To continue the conversation I have just fitted this red stripe sight glass as a replacement after carelessly breaking a sight glass on my boiler, so thought I would share with you and let you decide how effective the red stripe is or not?
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: morfa on October 08, 2020, 11:00:04 PM
DBS88
That's super cool. What are the dimensions and where did you get it.
It will be perfect for my needs, this and a stopwatch and I am golden.


I have setup my FPV camera to point at it but this will really help.


This has been a great thread. Such great information from a simple question - thanks to all.


Derek
Title: Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
Post by: roycv on October 08, 2020, 11:48:27 PM
Hi that's fine and a nice photo.  The horizontal stripes option just need to be on a card placed behind the sight glass.  No need to replace the boiler sight glass.

Roy