Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: mbm999 on December 13, 2020, 06:27:44 pm
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Hi,
I've just started on my SLEC Swordsman and thought I was following the instructions well, however, I seem to have hit an issue with the bottom hull skin.
The pictures in the instructions seem to show that the skin fits flush with the end of the hull but if i do that the skin runs out along the keel. I've taken some pictures to show what happens if I fit it in alternative ways but none seem right.
I wonder if anyone could point out what i have done wrong (and perhaps what i could do to fix it).
Many thanks,
Mark
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When I was doing the1:16 scale Swordsman review I commented as below on the hull skinning. It did all fit together OK on my model. Hope this helps.
Colin
The next step is to fit the bottom and side skin sections in that order. There is some leeway in extra material up and down but virtually none fore and aft so it is a good idea to temporarily pin the various sections in place on both sides to ensure that everything will fit OK before reaching for the glue. Basically when fitting, the bottom skins align to the keel and the upper skins to the deck edge. The upper skins overlap the lower skin edges along the chine stringers as a close look at the picture instructions shows. The upper edge of the lower skin between frames 10 & 11 needs to be trimmed away to expose enough of the chine stringers for the upper skin lower edge to sit on.
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Hi Colin,
Thanks for the reply - do you have a link to your build?
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There is no link. It was published in the April 2020 issue of Model Boats magazine. You may be able to find a print copy online or alternatively you can get a digital copy from Pocketmags.
Colin
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HI Mbm999 I have sent you a pm if you can send details via a pm will scan and e /mail the article
Stan. :-)) :-)) :-))
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All scanned and e /mailed hope the build goes ok all the best .
Stan. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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It doesn't look as though you have sanded the keel to suit both bottom skins yet? The skin looks as though it will span between the centre of the keel and the outside of the stringer then.
Usual practise is to butt both skins up to each other along the centre of the keel and then sand off the excess along the chine stringer. The skins should be slightly oversize to facilitate this and allow for slight variances in build.
Chris
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Dave Milbourn's instructions are pretty explicit for this kit, and the preceding Huntsman. The CNC parts are very precisely cut and accurate so if they do not appear to fit then stop, think and have another look at the instructions and photos. The parts do fit, but there is no leeway to 'bodge' things as you might do with a more traditional kit.
Also, make sure you have got the skin sections the right way round! This nearly caught me out as the surface finish/colour on mine was slightly different from one side to the other and I assumed that the same finish would be facing outwards on all sections. This wasn't the case on one of my kits. It doesn't matter though as you still have to fill in the grain and cover with glass cloth whichever surface is facing outwards.
So try the middle and back sections back to front and turn them over until you get the right fit. Tape them all in place to be sure before reaching for the glue.
And, as Chris says, check the instructions re bevelling the keel and chine rails.
Colin
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Really appreciate the advice and suggestions.
This is why I have stopped where i am.
The keel and chine have been sanded to the profile - not easy to see perhaps on the photos - i can understand how hard it is take a picture to convey a meaning - maybe a video would be better :-) .
Can i just ask in your builds was the bottom skin (part 17) flush with the back of the stern on both the keel and the chine "out of the box" or did it need to be sanded to fit flush.
Many thanks,
Mark
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To the best of my recolletion, yes. That is why I made the comment earlier about there being no leeway fore and aft with the skin pieces. If the frame and keel has been put together right then there should be an exact fit with a small allowance for sanding allong the chine rails.
I think your best bet is to take part 17 (the rear bottom skin piece) and try the fit by turning it over and around as needed to get the back edge flush with the keel and chine. One of these positions should give a decent run along the and there will probably be a bit of an overhang on the chine rail. Pin it in place and then offer up the piece in front (18) and do the same to butt it up against 17.
You may find, as I did that you then have a slight gap along the keel where the skin pieces on each side don't exactly meet. It may be possible to elliminate this by a bit of extra chamfering but even if that still leaves a slight gap then a bit of filler will sort it out. It is best if any misalighnment is along the keel as it is easy to deal with there to maintain shape of the keel externally.
Although not strictly necessary I used some fillets of stripwood between the keel and the inner side of she skins to strengthen the joint.
Colin
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Thanks Colin, that's really helpful. I think i can make some progress now.
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Hi,
Could anyone point me at any pictures (links?) of what the final shape of the bow should look like as i'm unsure how long and deep the concave flare should be.
The pictures i've seen so far on the web/fairey website don't seem to quite show it explicitly (enough for me that is :(( ).
Thanks,
Mark
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That's a difficult one, it is hard to show it in a 2D image.
All I would say is, don't overdo it and keep checking that both sides are the same. As long as you have got a reasonable dgree of concavity it will be OK. After all, these kits don't pretend to be 100% to scale.
The image below may help.
Colin
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Unlike the flared bow of the Huntsman 31, the Swordsman had a little flare at the bow, just below deck level, so I certainly wouldn't worry about trying to make it overly concave.
Have a good look at the pictures of 1:1 scale Swordsman and you'll see how little flare there actually is, especially compared to the H31.
https://www.faireyownersclub.co.uk/default.asp?content=boats&type=sword (https://www.faireyownersclub.co.uk/default.asp?content=boats&type=sword)
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Thanks for the replies.
I've looked at those photos and sadly i still can't really see it - perhaps looking at a real boat is the answer :-) . Maybe when lockdown finishes I should take a trip to the seaside to see one.
If I can't wait til then maybe i'll just take a best guess - no hurry at the moment as it's too cold in my garage to do anything!
Cheers,
Mark
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Hi Mark
I had the same problem with my 1:12 build. I looked at a number of photos and it is difficult to see the flare especially if the hull is white!
It is quite subtle and hopefully you can see it in my photo. It starts at the bow and finishes about 2 thirds along the balsa block - rear of the block is about inline with the front screen.
Vertically it starts just under the deck and then blends into where the chine/spray rail will be. You don't really want to form a hollow, just a smooth transition.
Chris
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Found this photo which probably shows it the best of a boat under restoration. Look at the right of the hull as viewed which shows what I was saying about it blending in from deck to chine.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for the photos (the description was especially helpful), it's given me a better idea of how to do it now.
After seeing that photo of the real one, i'm even more keen to see one in the flesh.
Cheers,
Mark
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Hi,
I would like some advice please on another part of the build.
It concerns the windscreen support rail which goes over the cockpit side and aft cabin.
I can't work out if the rail is done in 1 or 2 pieces as none of the ways (I can think of) seem to give smooth transitions.
I was going to list the ways I'd thought of but that might be more confusing.
Thanks,
Mark
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I'm not altogether clear what you mean but the cockpit sides should have a slot to accommodate the base of the windscreen. You can see this in illustration 47 in the picture instructions marked as 51. This slot is explained on page 3 of the instructions, paragraph 4 referring to part 51. The top of the slot sides should be level with the fore and aft cabin roofs.
Your illustration doesn't appear to show a slot so you will need to cut it.
The windscreen itself has a step in it where it bends round to the cockpit sides. The windscreen sides bed into the slot and the curved front section should then fit snugly against the top of the forward cabin roof. (see my earlier illustration above). If it doesn't you will have to fiddle around with it a bit, possibly by sanding the cabin roof. In my case I found that I had to extend the slot slightly around the corner where the cockpit side meets the cabin roof to improve the fit. Another trick to help the fit is to squeeze the curved section one way or the other and secure it with unobtrusive pins through into the cabin roof. See photo below
I added a bit of hardwood trim along the cockpit sides to improve the look.
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Thanks for the reply.
I've not explained myself very well I don't think, sorry.
I'm at the point of item 50 (pic 44) - that piece looks like it sits on the inside of item 40 (the side) on top of the aft cabin and then sanded to the side profile (pic 45).
Then piece 51 is fitted - for me it will sit flush with the top of the fore cabin and on top of the side (item 40).
So, if piece 51 joins where piece 50 starts, there will be a mismatch of the width of the cabin side.
Or is piece 51 supposed to go all the way from the back of the fore cabin to the rear of the aft cabin on top of the previously contoured piece 50?
I hope that helps explain my dilemma a bit better (probably not).
Thanks for the info about fitting the windscreen, that will be handy when i get to it.
Cheers,
Mark
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Hi Mark
These photos of Dave's model should help. If I understand it you are talking about the different thicknesses that the mahogany needs to sit on, that of the cockpit area and then the narrower coaming that runs alongside the rear cabin roof?
The coaming is very thin and I can imagine it will quite difficult to glue the mahogany on the top. I will have a similar problem, but being a larger model my coaming is a little thicker.
Colin - in your build, are the coamings a sandwich i.e. sitting both sides of the deck upstand? If so, this would give a much greater thickness to sit the mahogany on.
It also looks at though Dave sat a piece of mahogany on the front cabin roof for the screen to wrap around and be glued to, which is the approach I'm going to take.
Chris
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Mark, Chris,
Yes I did 'bodge' it a bit to get a better look by widening the coamings to lay the mahogany strip on top, see pics below. Looking around online shows that these boats have been modified over the years according to owner preference when repairs wer needed. Dave's boat was a prototype with wide hardwood coamings, the kit may have been simplified somewhat.
Chris,
I also thought about adding a piece of mahogany in behind the windscreen for it to sit on. But there were three issues. Firstly there would need to be a cut out to accommodate the top section of the control console otherwise it wouldn't fit properly. Secondly when looking at the size of the driver and then the doors to the forecabin I wondered how he would ever get down there! Normally in these situations there is a lifting top section to facilitate access which I saw online and decided to incorporate on my boat. Thirdly it's not so much a case of wrapping the screen around a mahogany piece as on Dave's boat but in shaping the mahogany piece to fit the curve the screen needed to make to keep the bottom flat against the cabin roof! A bit fiddly and I needed to get the review model completed.
As the two pins gave me the right fit for the screen I made an 'opening' top section for the doors and added a bit of mahogany trim to fill in the gaps along the aft end of the forecabin roof. It was a quick and easy solution really. There is no reason not to follow Dave's curved piece idea but I still think the doors on his boat are too small without the top opening. Access to the aft cabin entails opening the doors and sliding the hatch back and that is obviously more to scale.
Colin
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Hi Colin
I know that Dave based his second prototype (the one I've shown) on Tireur and the photo shows the lift up section in the hardwood cabin top as per the attached photo. For some reason he hasn't included it - though likely it matched and you'd hardly see the joint. I don't have any schedules/timelines to meet (good job! :-) ) so shall have a go at including the hardwood top.
As you know with models you can't always be totally accurate as the small details and construction often won't scale down (the coaming cappings being a case in point) and you just have to do something that looks acceptable and use a bit of artistic licence! And as you say subsequent owners had repair/refurbishment work done which sometimes differs from the original build.
Mark - sorry to have gone off on a bit of a tangent but I hope you find some of it useful! You'll probably have to run a small timber section along the inside of the top of the coaming to give the capping something more substantial to sit on. Or run a small section of mahogany up both sides of the coamings and sit the capping between or on top (dependent on sizes) and then sand to profile afterwards. I'm going to have to do something similar.
Chris
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Hi,
The photos speak volumes, thanks for posting them - the discussion is welcome too.
There is no mahogany supplied for any of these areas, i guess the parts should be stained.
I'm still not 100% what the correct course of action is yet, so, i'll study the pics some more - i think the answer is there.
Thanks again,
Mark
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When I built the Huntsman it was on the basis of reviewing the kit as received. But with the Swordsman I said I reserved the right to amend and add detail to enhance the realism as a semi scale model. All kits include compromises to make them commercially viable but there is nothing to stop you improving them.
If you buy the kit yourself then you have no obligation to slavishly follow the instructions although it is sensible to add to the model rather than alter it which is what I did. The Swordsman was built according to the instructions and I simply embellished it in various ways including applying mahogany stripwood. It's all part of the fun.
My Swordsman is not a patch on Dave's original but I am still quite pleased with it.
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Just glancing through the thread and your pics.
Am I right in thinking that your crew is from the farming community? We might have the same driver :o
Cheers
Tony
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Yes Tony, we are all Bruders. Too bad the female interest only seems to come in wellies rather than something more appropriate for a posh power boat.
Colin
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Thought i'd post a "where i'm up to now" photo instead of a "please help" message (just about to add glassfibre to the hull - should be fun).
I know there's a few bits to "fettle" yet (no zooming in) and i just temporarily added the laser etched deck to give me a boost as to how its going to look - pleased so far.
Cheers,
Mark
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Coming on now Mark and really looking like a Swordsman.
Chris
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Hi,
I was hoping i was finished with issues with the hull after my first attempt at fibreglassing went so well but i've come to fit the chine rails and found - they don't!
The rail provided is 609mm (seems a very precise length) and for where i think it should end at the bow, it's too short. If i move it down the bow to where it would fit (ie. join with the other side) then it seems much too low.
I'm also wondering if i've got the shape of the bow wrong too as i did not sand to a point as all the pictures i looked at seem to indicate it was more flat at the front.
The bend at the bow would also be very tight (unless it is supposed to be done in 2 pieces hence the short rail).
I'd welcome some thoughts/advice please.
Thanks,
Mark
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I don't recall any problems with mine so maybe you have left the bow blocks a little 'fat'. Photo of mine below.
You can't change the shape of your bow now but it should be an easy fix. Fit the rail starting at the bow and steam it if necessary to get round the curve. Then just add a short straight section of 1/8th sq strip at the back.
Colin
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I don't know whether this might help but on both my current powerboats I templated then cut pieces of ply of the same thickness as the chine rail strip to give "V" shapes matched to the locations needed. They only went back a couple of inches. I then glued them in place with epoxy and ran the strips :-)) from there. A bit of fettling and job done.
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Funnily enough I've been fitting the chine rails to my bigger Swordsman today. Been a bit of a job as I'm using a larger section and even with steaming it's been a challenge to get the one fitted so far.
The chine rails do meet at the bow and the bow is rounded rather than coming to a point so you will probably have to use some filler.
As yours are short I'd do as Colin suggests and fit a piece in towards the stern where it isn't under tension unlike at the bow.
I like your idea Tony as it can sometimes be difficult to get the chine rails to meet neatly.
Chris
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Thanks for the suggestions.
Haha, yes i think fat balsa blocks absolutely is my problem - i can see it now when i look at the bow - i should have tried the chine rails before fibreglassing. Next time!
I don't seem to have much success with steaming (more practice i guess!) and i would have thought a piece on the front would be "cheating" but i rather like it :-)
@Chris - good luck with the other side.
Cheers,
Mark
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It doesn't matter what method you use as long as the result is the same. That is the beauty and versatility of wood. Once blended in and painted no one will know the difference.
Colin
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Hi all.
Thought i'd post an update picture if anyone's interested - got a list of 9 "potential" things left to do but struggling with motivation as it runs and looks ok on the water (to me).Sadly, i caught the mast with my sleeve and broke it off (held with blutack for the purposes of the picture) so i'm thinking about making it removable (somehow).
Cheers,Mark
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Hi Mark, we're always interested in Faireys!
Looking good, what's left to do?
Any thoughts on a next build?
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Here's just a few of the things:-
ladder (maybe bathing platform too).
red pinstripe over the waterline and long arrow pinstripe on the side.
Swordsman lettering in white on cabin sides (couldn't see the supplied gold one when I put it on - not sure how to do this).
Compass for the dashboard (supplied one really needs the face adding as it looks a bit plain - not sure how to do this either).
Hmm, don't really have any ideas for the next boat really - how sad! (suggestions welcome)
I have a "side project" which is an Albatross speedboat for which i just have a picture of the plan! It's a throwback to my youth so purely sentimental. It was an aluminum boat but i'm going to try and replicate it in wood.
So far i've just constructed it in cardboard to see how it might go together.
Cheers,Mark
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Hi Mark
I'm nowhere near the detailing stage myself but Radiojoe had good results with waterslide transfers in his Hunters Moon build in this section. If you have a look at Captain Podges Another Huntsman Rebuild on Page 5 of the thread there is discussion on the process. I've seen the odd build where the long arrows on the side have been raised by I think using thin mahogany.
Speedboat sounds interesting.
Chris
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Mark,
The Albatross plan that you have, does it show bulkheads? If not, I have a PDF one that has transom and two bulkheads shown, plus a side and top view.
If this is of any use to you, send me a pm with your email and I'll send it to you.
Will
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Regarding the mast, does the cabin roof lift off?
If so, could you cut a slot and add a piece to the bottom of the mast that passes through the slot and you put a small R clip through to keep in in place?
Or, the same at the bottom of the mast and two pieces of spring metal on the underside, that will grip and hold the piece that passes through the slot. Then when you're done, simply pull on the mast to remove it from between the jaws of the spring metal clip.
Hope that makes sense. It does to me anyway %%
Will
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And does the Albatross plan show the location of the radio equipment installed to become the "Queen Gull"?
Regards Ian.
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And does the Albatross plan show the location of the radio equipment installed to become the "Queen Gull"?
Regards Ian.
My one doesn't, it's just a 2 view plus bulkheads and for the 1:1 boat, not aimed at building a model.
Will
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@Chris - thanks for pointing me there, will have a read and research.
@Will - thanks for the offer of a pdf. I don't have a pdf (I've got jpg and png ones) but it sounds like the same drawing - would be interested to have it even so, so i'll PM you.
- the mast ideas sound interesting, however, it's a bit busy just there (the slot for the windscreen is there) but maybe i can make it work.
@Ian - Sadly not, it's the plan of the actual boat so all that would have to be worked out (fudged in my case!). The drive train will be awkward to fit in never mind the rc stuff, it may never come to anything, who knows. I (think) I've done it as 1:8 but may need to go bigger. Someone has done an ic engine version in aluminum at 1:4 but no RC.
Cheers Mark
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Wish I ate cornflakes....the mock up looking good, 40 inches with a serious brushless maybe in wood not breakfast boxes {-) (by others here...I know nothing about strange electric things)
Winter project I think :-))
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Wonder if substituting with "Crunchy Nuts" boxes will make the performance sweeter?? O0
Regards Ian