Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: peterpan on January 07, 2021, 10:47:35 am
-
Hi Started Building Annie thread but immediately had photo problems. All sorted now (I hope) so starting again with Building Annie 2
I am building the Bearospace Schooner Annie which has brought me back to the forum for help after some years away and I noticed references to this boat in a number of posts so with lockdown and weather restricting the build a bit I thought I would post some of my progress.
First a disclaimer . Although for 50 + years I refurbished and sailed various boats (sail and power) from 7m to 36m, both as owner and delivery skipper, I am not an experienced model maker in the class of a lot of build posts on the forum. Since 2013 I have carried on my passion for boats by occasionally building models, mostly from plans in wood, with some reasonable results (with much help from MBM members) but my projects tend to be quit a long process in how to turn my actual experience into a reasonable build without the modelling experience.
The object of the post is not to show you how its done but to show some of the difficulties I am having along the way, how I am dealing with them and perhaps get some thoughts from the experts.
So why did I choose Annie.
Two years ago I discovered RC Yacht racing and got hooked racing a RG65 and rebuilding and racing an older IOM (another case of, “with my experience this will be a doddle”....not) and I now wanted to build a RC classic sailing yacht and Annie ticked all the boxes. Its a large scale, easier for older fingers. The hull is a simpler ply construction (I thought), no building half models to produce frames or hours/weeks of double planking . It has the potential to add detail on the basic build. There is a lot of information out there and great support from the designer Gary Webb. It fits in my car. All at a cost that I could afford to fail at should I not finish it for any hopefully I will actually get to sail it.
My main reservations were the draft and the all up weight, particularly with regard to launching and recovering the boat and the depth of sailing waters that are available reasonably close. I emailed Gary Webb and we discussed reducing the draft (more later)and this contact with him gave me confidence to give it a go,
I bought the plans for Annie in Aug 2019 and began the build in early Sept 2019. I am now about 30% of the way .
Pic 2 was taken in Nov 2020 alongside my one meter IOM but don’t be fooled by the apparent paint job. Its not good, I am still working on it, More latter.
-
My very first problem was ply thickness. The plans call for 2,5 mm which is widely available in large sheets in the states for lining doors. The design requires full length hull panels of at least 58 inch and the thinnest I could find locally to meet this was 4mm. My main concern was the increase in weigh and its effect on draft and balance. I exchanged emails with Gary Webb and we resolved these concerns so I bought the thicker ply and started Pic 2 but it did cause some build problems.
The hull panels are a gentle curve in one direction and were not to much of a problem to bend to shape,but the method of initial tacking them all in place was not strong enough to hold the thicker ply particularly at the panel joints and the frames twisted.
At this stage it is vital that the keel box and the two frames supporting it are absolutely central and parallel with the hull if the boat to sail straight and so I temporally screwed the keel box into the frames Pic 3 (sorry don’t have any pics of the boxes construction but it is an internally fibre glassed very strong box) and used this to set out and reinforce the rest of the frames and hull panels. Pic 4/5. I also used the deck panel and lots of measuring to help make sure the hull was straight and true. Pic 6.
-
The ply thickness also meant the panel joints had to be chamfered to give a strong joint. This was a long job getting panel edges to sit flush but was worth it making a very strong hull and avoiding lots of external filler. eventually I could remove the keel box and have a true and straight. Pic 7 and completed internal epoxy fillets Pic 8.
-
The inside of the hull and underside of deck then received 4 coats of penetrating epoxy sealer Pic 9 followed by 3 coats of waterproof paint Pic 10
-
Hi peterpan,
I've thought about building one of Gary's designs many times over the years and will follow your build with interest,
he has a nice little setup and life style aboard his boat - I think his great videos go a long way to selling his products.
How did you get on with the plans? pdf printed out by a printshop or good old fashioned paper plans -
if the latter did you get clobbered for dreaded import taxes etc??
regards Paul
-
Peter
You seem to have your photo problem well under control and the new larger size photos are much easier to look at on my screen. This is going to be a lovely model.
What is the white product that have you faired the joints with? If it is epoxy + ??
How much epoxy do you reckon that you will need to build the model? I can imagine that it is quite a lot!
-
Hi Paul. I got the PDF plans.
Did have bit of a problem getting them printed because of the size. In the end had to go to printer that printed shop signs. Bit expensive but was printed on a thicker material which made great templets
Cheers Peter
-
Hi Tug
Yes, the whole saga of the photos was well worth the effort. Thanks again.
The filer is two pot epoxy and you have spotted something that took me a bit by surprise. I have used International Watertight Epoxy Filler because I know the products from the marine world It is the best but expensive. Initially bought the smallest 125ml pack and this has done what you see in the photos plus a bit left but went a bit over the top to ensure the thick ply panel joints were strong as there will be twist pressure on the hull when sailing. I will have to get more particularly for the rudder construction so will be checking what is best when I get to it.
Cheers peter
-
5 coats of penertrating epoxy sealer to the hull. Pic 11 and 12
-
At this stage I decided I would have a look at setting up the RC.
I decided I would initially build the forward pully assembly and the sail winch housing using scrap materials and once I had the system installed and working would rebuild them when it comes to the final installation with fairleads through deck sheets etc. Pic 13/14/15
I bought the recommended sail winch HiTec HS-785HB from HobbyKing. I already use a Flysky radio transmitter for my racing yachts 6 channels basically designed for helicopter flying but extremely good value . I only use 2 of the 6 channels but I can add up to twenty boats and most important I can adjust the sail winch travel.
-
The rudder servo is a straight forward fit Pic 16.
With a bit of adjustment the winch/pully system for the 3 sail sheets worked fine Pic 17/18
Getting a suitable forward pully proved a bit difficult, standard larger sized pulleys are meant for thicker cord not the braided twine I am using . I have realized that building a model of this size means not sourcing items/materials from model shops but more from DIY suppliers. In normal times a trip to the local ironmongers and actually handling before you buy would be fine but in these on line only times your not sure it is suitable until it arrives. I now have an assortment of pulleys.
-
Coming along nicely - I can't tell from the pictures but is the forward pulley spring tensioned to keep the cord taught? Assume there are several wraps round the winch pulley so it pays out and pulls in to its full travel.
Typically one side (output) of the pulley has all the sail cords attached so that no matter what they are pulling directly on the pulley with the other side sprung loaded to ensure the cable does not come off the pulley.
I use copper tube for goose neck pipes to take the actual sail cords from the pulley rope to get them above decks and this works well.
Look forward to further updates.
Cheers
Geoff
-
Hi Geoff Thank you for the post.
Gary Webb uses various applications of this system in his boat designs and is the first to say “ its one way of doing it”.
This is one of those systems that when you set it up makes sense but is a bit long winded to describe, but is very good for controlling multiple sails.
There is no tensioner on the forward pully, the tension to the winch cord is applied by sliding the winch housing back on the fixing slots and locking it down. ( I will be building more substantial winch and pully housings for final installation)
There is a double pully on the winch. The winch cord goes from the bottom groove( with enough turns to travel distance from the winch to the forward pully) around the forward pully and back to the top groove of the winch pully.
This is now a continues loop which winds from bottom groove via the forward pully to top groove clockwise and back from top groove to bottom anticlockwise so there can be no slippage. Also when activating the winch clockwise the side of the loop from winch to forward pully is running towards the front of the boat and from forward pully to winch is running toward the back of the boat.
This allows you to control multiple sails by bringing the sheets through the deck at the back of the boat and attaching them, close to the winch, to the loop running from winch towards the forward pully and also through the deck at the front of the boat and attaching them close to the forward pully on the other side of the loop running from the pully to the winch. This means all of the sails are sheeted in or let out at the same time.
I have to say I am not happy that the forward pully I have will not let the loop cord slip off and will have to find something with more of a V grove ( if anyone knows where I can get one ) and /or a way of guiding the loop around the pully. Which brings me to copper tube.
I am currently a few posts away from getting up to date but am currently working on the problems raised above and will be using copper tube to guide and contain the running rigging. Pic 21/22
Cheers Peter
-
Moving on to the deck the question of permanently fixing the deck I think needs to be kept in mind from the start. The build instructions eventually call for the deck to be securely epoxied into the hull. I have always been nervous of this. The RC system in sailing boats works hard and under some strain and will inevitably have failures which will have to be addressed on a fairly regular basis
Now that I have seen the RC installed I am sure I will want much better access than the deck openings provide, particularly to the forward pully, Exactly how I will achieve this I will decide as the deck build proceeds. Pic 20 was taken further on in the build but shows the problem
There has been discussion on removable decks on other forums. However I think this is not just a question of access, with a heavy boat like this under sail the hull/deck joint needs to be strong and water/leak proof
When building the hull with the thicker ply I did add some blocks to enable me to screw the deck in place, not only to ensure the hull shape was correct but to maintain the camber of the deck. This system could be developed and fixing a removable deck is possible but making it waterproof as well is another thing. Another option would be to enlarge the hatches but I will have to have the below deck rc/sheeting system in place first to see if this would work.
-
Building the basic cabin and hatch sides are simple but when cutting the holes for portholes I realised that I needed to consider the subject of scale for these and any other deck fittings I may decide to add later. Pic 23. These were some eyelets I was thinking of using but decided against.
We are of course not building a scale model but a schooner rigged model RC sail boat that ends up 58 inch long and actually sails, however we do need to have a sense of proportion to make the finished model look right. In the beginning I did intend to add detail but now I think the answer is not to try and add a lot of different items on the deck, which would highlight the problem.
The one thing that I will consider is a steering position as its the first thing I noticed was missing.
Schooners of this type could have been between 40ft and 80ft. I know Gary Webb thinks in terms of 1:12 with his designs and is simple to work to and makes the boat 58 ft o/all so I am going to do the same.
-
I was able to get outside to continue the cabin and hold construction Pic 24 so took the opportunity to trail fit the masts to check the keel blocks and deck holes gave the correct rake Pics 25,26.
-
June 2020 So far so good. I am happy that I have the hull and deck construction completed Pics 27/28
-
Next decking
A lot of members including Gary Webb get great results staining and drawing planking lines on decks but I always intended to plank mine. However, planking with caulking lines raises the scale problem again so I have cheated a bit. I had some spruce strips which have slightly different grain on each side which if laid alternately gives a planked look. Pic 29.
I am not sure how this will turn out when deck has been treated with clear epoxy sealer but it will give a good surface and if I don’t like it I can re-do it once I know she sails OK. So started Pic 30
-
I had a small amount of mahogany strip and couldn’t resist using it (been looking at to many J Class builds). Again if I don’t like it I can modify it later. Pic 31/32/33/34
-
This just about brings me up to date on where I am on the deck as at today. I have started on through deck fittings Pic 35/36/37.
Still to do. Build hatches and cabin/hold roofs. Sort out through deck fittings for sail sheets and hull/deck fixings.
But,next will cover the hull painting saga.
-
Sorry post came out so small
This just about brings me up to date on where I am on the deck as at today. I have started on through deck fittings Pic 35/36/37 above
Still to do. Build hatches and cabin/hold roofs. Sort out through deck fittings for sail sheets and hull/deck fixings but next will cover the hull paiting saga.
-
Hull painting.
I have little experience of painting models or of spray painting. My previous models have been planked and varnished which has been applied by brush using marine varnish. Pic 37. Where I have tried to use modelling paint in the past, I have always had problems so approached painting this large hull with some dread.
-
I started the hull painting in Sept 2020. I have access to a large barn with overhead infrared heaters and I decided to use Halford’s spray cans for all painting.
The hull had been sealed with penetrating epoxy sealer and I gently rubbed this down and it looked like a smooth surface.
I then put 4 coats of filler primer on. Pic 38
This revealed a lot of the ply grain. I spoke to a contact who uses these spry cans a lot and he advised I just need to keep rubbing down and adding more coats finishing with wet and dry. This I did and got what appeared to be good surface with a slight sheen and prepared to paint below the water line. Pic 39/40 Note aluminium fin. More latter.
-
Yeah, rubbing down can be such a pain but well worth it in the end.
She's looking sleek even at this stage.
Nice work. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
-
Thanks Ray but looks can be deceiving.I began with the bottom (antifoul). On the can it said this was Flat Red ?? but this was the least of my problems. As you can see from Pic 41 after numerous coats of filler primmer and hours of work and now 4 coats of red paint the graining was awful.
At this point I abandoned the red and looked at the white topsides. They looked smooth before I applied paint, but after putting on 4 coats of white, it was obvious, the ply should have had a lot more preparation and I had a big problem. Pic 42.
In my defence at each stage of the preparation I had continued rubbing down and applying additional coats to fill the grain.
I could only think of three options. Strip it back and start again. Accept it as an RC model of a working boat and move on. Try to rescue it.
I decided to try a rescue.
-
This was in late November. I put the hull to one side and carried on with the decks, as posted and in the new year started to look at hull again,
-
I decided to concentrate on the white top sides and to see if I could use a fine filler on top of the paint.
Throughout the paint process I had tested each stage on a sample piece of ply to be sure there were no reaction problems. This had some grain showing so I used it to try fillers.
My son had some car body filler but if you tried to apply it very thin it set immediately.
I then spoke to Halfords and bought a 2- 30ml tube pack of Isopon Scratch &Stone Chip Filler. (Very expensive). When I first tried it, it also dried quickly the thinner it was applied but I found if I did a small area and sanded it with fine wet and dry immediately it had the desired effect. Pic 43
After a light sand I then applied it to all the topsides Pic 44/45 and put it aside with tube heaters to slowly dry.
-
A couple of weeks ago we had a slightly warmer less humid spell, so I decided to go for a white respray, still using Halfords Appliance White.
The first coat gave me some concern over coverage Pic 45a, but 4 coats latter it was looking good Pic 46.
When I got it back in good daylight there was no sign of the grain Pic 47/48.
Whilst preparing the topsides I also rubbed down the bottom with fine wet and dry which has improved it slightly so for now I consider the hull PAINTED. %%
-
This now brings me pretty much up to date with the build so far, so going forward I won’t be able to produce the posts with hindsight and the build will be in real time i.e. slower.
Peter
-
Hi I have been following this build with interest. As far as crew on board I do approve of Gary's choice of teddy bears!
I have used lengths of ply and a pre-bending with hot water treatment, my version of steaming, then use a hair dryer can be helpful.
Before attachment to frames an initial treatment of the ply sealing the surface and ready for an undercoat.
We all have our methods I had looked at the plans and had a build going in my head the boat achieves excellent character with so few lines, all very nicely observed. But I have enough going on so will just observe.
Carry on the good work.
Roy
-
Hi Peter,
I echo Roy's sentiments Gary's models are really interesting, great 'fun' builds !
One to watch with Halfraud's paints - I disastrously discovered around 10 years ago (formula's may have since changed),
their White Primer will pickle off Appliance White gloss, should you need to re -prime !
acts like paint stripper !
Paul
-
Hi Paul
During a filler primer respray of topsides I had left a tiny bit of the red bottom paint not masked off and the primer turned it into liquid paint.
I picked it up on my finger and I thought I had cut myself so it look like the problem is still there.
-
Moving back to the deck. Next job was to build hatch covers and cabin /hold tops.
At this point I decided I would eventually permanently fix the deck into the hull so decided to enlarge forward hatch to give more access to RC pullies. Pics 49/50/51/52
-
The hatch covers are built inside the frame to ensure a perfect fit using cling film to stop them getting glued in and using tape as a spacer. Pic 53/54/55
-
Hatch frame is then glued in place and cover glued on Pic 56/57/58
-
H Peter P. where did you get those deep grip but small screw clamps from? Clamps give a much better joint than just spring loaded ones. Nice job by the way!
Regards
Roy
-
Frame then removed trimmed and sanded 59/60/61
-
Hi Roy.
I’ve had the little G clamps for ages. I used them here because the deck has a slight camber.
I usually buy this sort of thing on eBay. I could do with some more so if I find them I will post a link
Peter
-
Because the hatch is bigger I added some stiffeners.Pics 62/63
-
Same method of construction for aft hatch. Pic 64
-
Very interesting and helpful. Am currently building an “Emma”, so your experiences are of great assistance
-
Thanks Andy.
I am enjoying the build and its nice to know the posts are useful.
With “Emma” being smaller were you able to get the thin ply recommended on the plans ?
Having to use the thicker ply sheets has caused me some issues.
Cheers Peter
-
For the cabin roof and cargo hatch the build process is essentially the same in that the frames are built in the openings, but the larger size and shapes needs a more detailed frame, and the tops are added after the frame is removed.
The cabin roof is curved, and the cabin sides have a slight slope so extra care is needed applying the spacing tape and spacers to make sure the frame is upright and can be removed. Pic 65/66
-
The frame is then built in situ and then removed. Note the curved cross beams and cut-outs to clear portholes. Pic 67/68/69
-
The curved roof top is then fixed Pic 70/71
-
Good to see your progress
I got the ply from B&Q, they say it’s 3.6 mm thick, but my micrometer says it’s 3mm !
Not had any problems. Currently trying to make mould for casting the lead.
-
I then trimmed the edges Pic 72/73/74. I may shape them a bit more when I add the final cabin fittings.
-
Hi Andy
Was that an 8 x 4 sheet ?
Sounds like you are well into the build.
Casting the keel is the one thing I am not looking forward too
-
Bought 2 smaller sheets, 6’x2’. Also downloaded the Flyer plans, so will use the left over pieces to start that, at some time in the future. We all have good intentions !
Agree about the lead casting, am going to try using a camping cooler outside with an old saucepan.
-
Before and after 2 coats epoxy sealer Pic 79/80
-
Main deck components finished Pic 81
-
Next step will be to complete the final rc installation and the rudder construction but first time for a final check on mast rake and mast steps as I don’t want to have to adjust these once the rc installation is complete Pic 82/83.
All looks OK
-
Hi Andybiggs, make sure your saucepan has a separate 2nd. handle you cannot manipulate it with just one handle as it will be very heavy. Difficult to aim and pour.
Roy
-
The casting went fine. Used a camping cooker outside and a small Dremel blowtorch to warm the lead. Yes - the saucepan did have two handles, was made steel. Looks bit of a mess now !
The mould survived well and a quick measurement realised that it is suitable for use when making Flyer. So it’s under the bench waiting for a second use. Just need to find some lead.
Your Annie is looking very impressive.
-
Hi Andy.
Glad the lead poor went well.
Poring my keel bulb will have to be the very last job.
All my local sailing waters have restricted depth, so I am reducing the length of the aluminium fin by about 80mm to reduce the draught and will need the all up weight of the finished boat to calculate the final weight of lead required.
-
All my local waters have restricted depth so I am reducing the depth of the keel fin by about 80mm and wiil need the all up weight of the finished boat to calculate the final weight of lead required.
-
I started to build the rudder and although it’s not in the plans decided to put a liner in the rudder stock hole. Pic 84/85
-
Made cardboard template and checked everything was straight and true. Pic 86/87/88
-
Made aluminium rod frame and ply core and epoxy together Pic 89/90/91
-
Just when you think it is all going so well!!!
I have now got to the point of building up the final rudder shape with epoxy filler.
I do not have enough of my preferred filler, International Watertite Pic 92 which I used when I built the hull but is expensive. I have been recommended various car body type fillers, but these are all large tins, most of which I will never use. Whilst pondering this my son said he had a tin of Fibral fibreglass two-part repair resin Pic 93. I did a small sample on some ply and this seemed to cure ok and sanded well so yesterday I used it. After 5 hours it was obvious it was not curing properly, and some 22 hours later it was still taky.
-
I scraped some of the surface back and it was harder Pic 94 but as I got to the edges it lifted Pic 95 and then came clean off.Pic 96
-
The why I will leave for now, (I think it may be using old hardener) but the good news is I do not have to build the rudder from scratch. I know the International filler works so will probably revert to this but in any case, will buy new epoxy filler.
-
I feel your pain. Best Wishes
-
Managing to get some socially distanced sailing in again so the build progress has been a bit slower but as well as working on RC installation I have sorted out the rudder.
Talking to people who use these fillers a lot I became more convinced that the problem was that the old hardener I used had gone off.
Whilst trying to decide which filler to get I saw that my local Toolstation had a really cheap filler, Pic 121. I intended to fibreglass the rudder anyway, so I thought why not give it a try.
It went on well and sanded to a nice shape. Pic 123.
-
I then fibre glassed it and using the same filler faired it ready for painting. I am pleased with the result. Pic 124,125,126
-
Build Continues.
I thought I should update the thread.
Over past couple of months I have been continuing the build but found myself working on different bits at different times as things like RC also need attention to through deck sheeting and mast construction and completion of rudder controls etc.
The easing of lockdown has also meant I have been able to spend more time club racing my IOM and DF65 so updating the build has slipped a bit.
I am still taking photos and am working on
Completion of rudder and servo controls.
Installation of RC winch lines /controls
Through deck sheet controls, with masts and sails
I will put together some posts as soon as I tidy some loose ends.
Rudder has been completed Pic 127
-
Sail winch line controls. I did a temporary RC installation (see Jan 21 post) during hull interior build to make sure everything was lined up ok but now needed to do a permanent installation, some of which would not be accessible once deck is permanently fixed to hull.
I removed the temporary components Pic 128 I decided to change the forward single pulley with two smaller ones with bearings and fit them to a stronger fixed base Pic 129 130 131
The main reason for this was that if the winch line came off the larger pulley, I found it could become jammed under the pulley and would be very difficult to get out through the hatch when the deck was fixed down. This does not happen with the double pullies, but I also found the two pullies with bearings had much less friction.
-
I also decided to make a stronger and more easily adjustable base for the sail winch using metal threaded adjustment screws and plastic edges for the runners Pic 132 133 I then set everything up with my transmitter. Pic 134
This subject could be a mini thread itself but basically it is setting the distance of travel of the winch line by setting the number of turns on the winch. This is easier to do if the transmitter enables you to set the end points of the winch, otherwise you need to adjust the amount of line around the winch pulley and the position of the winch itself.
-
Like the look of your smaller pullies. Where did you get them from?
Would be interested in how you are going to attach the actual sail sheets to the loop. Are you adding a tension spring for the loop? I’m currently building a Flyer design and have decided to use some Bowsie’ to attach the sheets but would be interested in other solutions.
Many thanks from a “beginner”
-
Just a small comment: pullies are called "blocks" in sailboats.
Also, you are doing it overkill. Look for standard RC sailboat blocks here: https://www.midwestmodelyachting.com/Blocks_c_135.html (https://www.midwestmodelyachting.com/Blocks_c_135.html)
Or here: https://www.sailsetc2.com/index.php/products-by-category/fittings/blocks.html
(You can find same blocks from several other vendors around the world).
-
Hi peterpan
That is one very nice looking SG&K 1920 Gentleman's Runabout.
I added chine rails to my one which cut down water spray and improved the turning.
Canabus
-
Hi all. If you have an elastic or spring return for the sail winch cord. Make sure that when the sails are pulled in they are being pulled directly by the winch.
Roy
-
Hi Andy. I bought the pullies on eBay. I tried various pullies before fixing on these.
The problems start because you need to wined around 18inch of cord onto the winch pully and the groove depth on the pully supplied with the winch limits the diam of line you can use. The only suitable turning pullies I could find had shallow U groove and thin cord did work on them as it works up the groove and using these small pullies solved this.
There are no springs. The winch line is tensioned by sliding the winch platform back and fixing in place with the screws.
Bowsies may look a bit out of place on a period boat but are a great way to tension lines on RC yachts.
I will be adding a post shortly showing the though deck installation of the sheets and attaching them to the winch line.
Roy,
You are absolutely right the sheets have to be pulled directly in line with the
winch as I discovered when I brought the sheets through the deck.
A bit more on that soon as well.
-
Hi tarmastro
You are correct, they are called blocks on sailboats but if you try to search blocks on the internet you get building products. It’s the same problem if you search for a starboard threaded bolt or a specific diam. sheet and do not try warps. %%
I do buy all my IOM RC yacht spares from Salesetc and did think about using some but there are problems, and I am scratch building which will include making my own wood blocks.
-
Hi Canabus,
Thanks for your kind comment. I bult my SG&K some years ago when I lived in Spain and it has not been on the water much. When I finally finish the schooner, I hope to dust it off and get it afloat and I will look at your comments on chines.
-
Next job was to complete the connection of the rudder to the servo
The brass arm on top of the rudder must be easily removed through the access hatch to the allow the rudder to be removed for transport. Pic 135 135a 135b.
I made a brass arm to fit the top of ruder stock. The bent wire arrangement is as shown in the plans and allows the arm to remain in the boat when the rudder is removed. Pic 136 137
-
Hi I usually file a notch in the top of the rudder stock where the securing screw is and just in case the securing screw comes loose, the potential is for the rudder to drop straight out the bottom. With a notch there you have a bit of leeway, its a belt and braces thing with me, do as you see fit! The braces bit is my rudders are mostly made of wood and ought to float.
Roy
-
Thanks RoyGreat advice, mine would sink like a stone. Not sure what you mean by a slot but I am thinking mabe a small hole with a cotter pin
Cheers Peter.
-
Hi Peter that would work, the slot I mentioned is where the screw touches the rudder stock, I file a flat, not very deep at this point it also gives a bit more of a seating for the screw to locate into.
Regards
Roy
-
Thanks Roy :-)) :-)) :-))
-
Hi Peter that would work, the slot I mentioned is where the screw touches the rudder stock, I file a flat, not very deep at this point it also gives a bit more of a seating for the screw to locate into.
Regards
Roy
I add a drop of blue threadlock on the screw.
-
Next job was to arrange to get sheets through the deck and onto the winch line. The recommended way is a simple flared copper pipe lead through the deck with fairleads to get sheet in line with the winch line,
This is the system that I have been thinking about almost since I started the project. Which resulted in a classic case of overthinking as you will see.
I have always been concerned that when trying to let the sheets out, the winch line will be letting the sheets loose in the bottom of the boat and if the wind is not strong enough to make the sail pull the sheets up through the deck and you then tried to sheet in would the sheets tangle.
The answer should almost certainly be no because this is how the designer controls all his boats, many have been built al over the world using this system, but I still thought I would try and make the sheets more captive
First, I worked out how I could run continuous tubing Pic 138. Then I did some friction testing Pic 139. Then I found I would have to flare one end in situ Pic 140. Then I realized that because some sheets must pass through the frames it would require a major redesign of through deck fittings to be able to install it, so I stopped thinking and went back to the recommend method.
-
Copper tube leads through deck Pic 141. I have raised the entry on the deck to help keep water out pic Pic 141a and will eventually dress these in some way Pic 141b.
I used copper tube to guide the sheets in line with the winch line Pic 142 The pics are for the 2 sheets, from gaff sail and main sail, which are attached on the winch line close to the sail winch.
The jib sheet which is attached to the winch line at the forward end of the line is a much simpler installation Pic 143
I will cover the attachment of the sheets to the winch line when I fit them.
-
There was one problem. The main sail sheet goes through the deck next to the cockpit and then must go across and through the bulkhead behind the winch, (don’t worry if this is not clear) and once the deck is fixed and there is no access to this space, so I had to make an access Pic 144. Another bonus of this access is that if I drop the wing nut when fitting or removing the rudder stock it would end up in this space.
There is not room to build a removable hatch so made a removable plate which at some later date I may use to attach a steering wheel. Pic145/146
-
I am now working on mast, booms and sails and looking at standing and running rigging. %%
-
Good luck with the rigging
Like how you are finishing the sheet leads with rope
-
During September made some good progress
The masts and spares are strait forward to using hardwood doweling shaped at the ends. Side cheek supports made for shrouds and wire loops fitted retain sheet blocks, and gaff jaws made all as the plans. Pics 147 148 149
-
Gaff Jaws
-
The making of the goose necks for the main and gaff booms was a bit mor fiddly, particularly as I have little experience of brass work, soldering etc. but we got there in the end. Pic 150 151 152 153
-
Before starting on sails, I needed to finish portholes in main cabin. From the start I intended to make the portholes, see post 30 Jan 21, but now with so many finishing jobs to do and they are important for the finished look, I chickened out and bought them. Pic 154 155
-
Coming together very nicely ! on the home stretch. Paul
-
Might seem a dampener, but rather than "Cheeks" soft soldered to the tube, I would have used a single piece wrap round onto the tube. Soft solder is not a good load bearer.
Regards Ian.
-
Hi Ian.Sorry I resized the photo a bit small, but it is a single piece wrapped round onto the tube :-)
Peter
-
Sails
All the sail work was carried out by my super seamstress wife. I just took the photos.
Make paper templets from sail dimensions on plans and match to mast and boom Pic 156
-
Make sails hems, bolt ropes, which form eyes and reinforcement patches Pic 157 158 159
-
Fit sails to mast and booms Pic 160 161
-
Sails complete Pic 162
-
This is looking very impressive
I’ll expect it will sail really well
-
Thanks Andy. I am pleased so far, getting closer to the water.
I have just finished the standing and running rigging, (see next posts),
the next and last major job is to cast the keel. I am taking a risk by having a shorter keel and heavier weight. If it does not work, I will have to build another one as the plans.
When this is done, I am hoping to do a short test sail with the deck temporarily screwed and tapped down to see how she sits with the shorter keel and check it all works before permanently fitting the deck and doing all the finishing bits.
Also, it will give some idea how I can launch and recover the boat with a bad back without damaging it. (The boat that is)
Cheers
-
Just a comment about standing and running rigging fittings.
The designer, Gary Webb, has specifically set out to enable the building of a good-looking recognizable style RC sailboat, using readily available hardware store materials, and basic hand/DIY tools, which is what attracted me to it in the first place.This is most apparent with the simple standing and running rigging fittings he makes.
Throughout the build my IOM experience has made me question some of these methods. Shroud/deck fittings are readily available in the RC racing world (at a cost) but I am finding that the loads that will be imposed on all aspects of the sail rig of the schooner are small compared to say an IOM, and of course she will be sailed for fun only in the right conditions, so am sticking with the plan and making these fittings
-
Standing rigging was completed using braided cord and the deck release / tensioning pelican hooks for the shrouds and backstay Pic 163. These are very clever and just apply some tension as they are locked in place with the tube.
-
The very simple wood blocks for the running rigging are a wood block with a hole through it, but the secret to them working is that there must be a continuous curve on the inside of the hole on the load side. And then of course be shaped to look like a ships block
I put a direct load on the block of 1 lb which was fine, but I am not so sure about a snatch load, say in a jibe. Also, how long they will last with the sheets running through them.
I know there are many members who could make stunning working blocks but then you would have to have the engineering skill, equipment, and time to do so, none which I have.
It will be fun finding out how they perform when we are on the water.
I used a hard wood for the block for the sheaves, Pic 163 164
-
A dowl for the pulley Pics 165 166, glued and fixed in with I fine brass pin Pic 167 and a brass wire for the shackle. Pic 168
-
Now for the keel %% %%
-
Hi Peter,
This is looking good and will have great presence on the water !
Interested to know what sail cloth Gary recommends? and what you've used on our side of the pond please??
With you regarding keel sizes, his keels seem exceptionally long/deep IMHO,
but he is able to sail in much deeper water at marinas and on the open sea etc, where its not an issue.
re keel bulbs -
I've had great success melting lead for smaller bulbs in an old thick bottomed saucepan, on the electric cooker's hob,
didn't expect it to get hot enough - after a previous experiment with a gas blowlamp failed - but it works fine !
The most important thing, is to get every last drop of moisture out of your plaster mould to avoid explosions,
again household applaince to the rescue - bung it in the oven for a while to dry out !
or there is the not so elegant laminated lead sheet method.
Paul.
-
Peter have you seen this amazing modified Bearospace Irene with retracting keel and even retracting rudder !?
fantastic idea and engineering, but extra weight - sadly the killer of anything with sails.
Paul
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?2550991-Bearospace-schooner-Irene/page113
-
Hi
Good Luck - it is easy than I thought - but did wear safety glasses and thick gloves
Recently cast the lead for the Flyer I'm making. Used an old two handled sauce pan, initially on the kitchen cooker, with the back door open. Then finished it off with a camping stove outside, which only just got enough heat into the sauce pan. Trying to keep the sides of the sauce pan hot enough was the hard part, a larger cooker/burner would have been better. I lost a little in the pouring process and some more will be lost when cleaning/shaping the lead. The mould is not strictly as shown on the plans, as it has parallel sides. Once cooled I cleaned the lead with a rough file and then made a fence of masking tape and poured in some West epoxy, to level the top surface. Once its hardened, I'll do the same on the underside, before completing the shaping/profiling process.
Bearospace Cutter FLYER - Page 37 - RC Groups (https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?3703011-Bearospace-Cutter-FLYER/page37)
-
Hi Paul
First Gary Webb uses “cotton poplin”. I used a cotton bed sheet, which I think is the same thing.
I have just looked at the boat with the retracting keel and rudder. Absolutely incredible design and engineering. I love looking at this sort of thing.
It has to be an exhibition piece. Otherwise, it’s an awful lot of work just to get the boat to fit in the car :} and I would think it would capsize if they were retracted on the water.
I am still in awe of the skill and dedication required, and the finish on the boat was up the engineering standard as well
Cheers
-
The Keel
Not only is working with these materials all new to me but it is a pivotal part of the build so I will cover it in a bit of detail.
From the start the draft has always been a concern (my very first post sets out these concerns). I discussed this with Gary Webb and at this time (Aug 2019) he had experimented with a reduced keel on one of his other designs and felt it should work on Annie but obviously at my risk.
In theory it simply means shortening the aluminium fin and increasing the amount of lead in the bulb to maintain the correct finished designed weight of the boat. In practice if the weight is not properly distributed on the keel bulb (centre of lateral resistance) the boat wont sail.
I started by shortening the o/a length of the fin from 20 ins to 17 ins. This will bring the draft very close to my IOM.
-
Casting the lead keel. The mold
There are many suggestions on types of molds and methods of poring lead, but again I decided to go with Gary Webb’s simple wooden mold design.
This calls for a base with an upright support and 3 blocks with the bulb shape cut at different angles to form the mold. Pic 1
The fin is then clamped to the upright and positioned in the mold Pic 2. 3. The blocks are then screwed together with a high temperature silicone sealant/ gasket between each block. Pic 4.
This looks straight forward but it is essential that the fin is centred as the plan and in line exactly in the mold and does not move when the lead is poured. This took a lot of trial and error to get it right.
Also, I increased thickness of the central block, to increase the weight of the bulb without changing the CLR (I hope).
-
Poring the lead
I had some help poring the lead. My grandson works as an engineer at a heavy plant hire company, and we did the pore there. He had welded together a tall narrow metal box and melted the lead in it with a large propane torch. This allowed us to pore the lead into the narrow mould slot without disturbing the fin.
Everything happened very quickly, and I did not get a photo of the actual pore Pic 5 shows half the pore (note the large extract system taking away all the smoke and fumes) and Pic 6 the finished pore. You can see that the required weight of lead (plus a bit) did not quit reach the top of the mold which was better than it overflowing.
During this process there was a lot of smoke but very little flames and no leakage and the wooden mold remained remarkably cool
-
I left the mold overnight and then opened it up.
Removing top block Pic 7 8. Removing bottom block Pic 9. Removing the centre block Pic 10
I was delighted with the rough keel and amazed how little damage was done to the wood mold. With a little cleaning up you could use it again.
-
Finishing the bulb
A quick rub with the file Pic 11. The overall balance was fine, but I was overweight by about 2 lbs. Better over than under, however I needed to remove a lot of material and a file was not going to do it.
-
I do not have any metalworking tools as such but then found that my multitool with a metal cutting blade if used lightly would shave pieces off with ease. Pic 12. Note the shavings in the plastic pot. This allowed me too actually carve the shape I needed and remove the material evenly around the bulb to maintain the shape and balance. Pic 13 14.
-
It did not take much filler to fair it off with epoxy filler and apply a couple of coats of primer. Pic 15 16
-
When fitted on the boat I was delighted. Pic 17. :-)) :-)) It is perfectly balanced, and I have a draft of 15 inch.
Now need to see if it sails. %%
-
Ingenious method of producing a fin and bulb in one hit Peter, interesting to see thank you - not for the faint hearted !
I've only cast simple shapes in two halves to date and taken note of this.
I trust you have safety securing bolts/pins passing through the bulb fin joint?
large model yacht keels are so easily bashed - often before you get them in the water !!
Paul.
-
Hi Paul.
Your comments made me realize I have left out a very important part of the process. (Partly because I didn’t photograph it) %%
Before the lead was poured three 15mm holes are drilled through the fin. When the fin is clamped in the mold a gap is left between the bottom of the fin and the bottom of the mold.
When the lead is poured it then surrounds and goes through the fin securely fixing it.
Having said this, I did put a pin through, not to fix it, but hopefully to stop it dropping off if the lead did somehow break away from the fin whilst in the water
-
I put myself under some pressure to get the boat on the water before the winter to check how she would sail, especially with the shorter keel. So, I screwed the deck down and taped it to the gunnels and taped the cabin tops and hatches down. Managed to find a perfect afternoon before the current gales arrived and went to Wicksteed Park model boat lake for A FIRST SAIL
-
She sits perfectly to her marks Pic 1 2
-
In a gentle breeze she sailed perfectly, goes through the wind on a tack with very little sail adjustment, on a beat with sails sheeted in needed no rudder input to maintain a course and was very quick downwind with no tendency to go bow down. The wind picked up a bit and she is amazingly responsive to rudder input and perfectly balanced. Pic 3 4 5
-
Now she is finally on the water I am absolutely delighted. :-)) :-)) All credit to the designer Gary Webb in producing such a responsive boat using deceptively simple, but clever building techniques using everyday materials that also looks good. Also, my reducing the draft seems to be fine .
We will have to see how she handle heavier conditions, but I am confident that she will be a joy to sail. :} :}
-
I can now move forward with completing the build.
This includes permanently fixing and sealing the deck, finishing the gunnels, and capping rails, adding deck fittings etc.etc.
Before I can fix the deck there is one problem, I must solve that was highlighted at the sail and that is how to launch and lift the boat from the water. I do have a work in progress on this and will post on it shortly when it is completed.
-
Looks great, especially seeing it on the water. Will be interested in seeing your device to get it out of the water.
-
Launching and lifting the boat from the water.
This has been a concern from when I was first looking at buying the plans (see first post). All of the videos of people sailing their boats show them wading into the water, which is not option for me.
For this first sail I had made a couple of straps, but I was not surprised that they were useless. They worked but the slightest imbalance and they slipped off.
Fortunately, the water level was only a few inches below the concrete dock (Photo a) and I could just get down and remove the hatch cover over the keel box and lift it clear of the dock. It was still very awkward with the masts and standing rigging in the way.
-
Because of my concerns I had been aware during the build that the easiest way to pick the boat up was by the keel box. (At this time without the keel attached). I also know that some of the larger RC racing yachts have a central rod from the keel with an eye protruding through the deck. So, I did some tests and found that the forward bolt hole to fix the keel was the exact centre of balance with the keel and all sails installed.
Fortunately, this was also just inside the deck hatch which made a lifting eye possible without going through the deck (Photo b c)
-
I decided to make it very simply with bent aluminium and bolts so it could be adjusted as it was built and no special tools or soldering skills required. (Photos d e f)
-
ff
-
I then made access for lifting eye through the hatch cover (Photo g)
And then made a simple bent steel lifting handle (Photo h i)
I intend to make handles of different lengths to give more control in various launching and weather conditions
-
When lifted she is perfectly balanced and can be lifted with one hand and steadied with the other (Photo j k)
-
In photo j its not that clear, but the keel is 8" clear of the carpet. Had to do it here because not enough head shed and to cold outside. :}
-
Headroom in the shed %%
I am not sure when I will next be able to test it on the water, but I have tested this outside with wind blowing and standing on steps to check different hights and it works well. The main advantage is being able to lift the boat with one hand and steady it with other. Also, once stood on its keel the handle can be laid flat on the deck without removing it from the eye, which can be done when the boat is safe in its cradle.
-
Sorry, Must be getting tired. I said the "the keel bolt hole at the forward end of the keel box" it is at the aft end.
-
An excellent idea
Very useful tip
-
Fixed deck
So, my final “build” job, is to permanently fix the deck in the hull.
At the beginning I favoured having a removable deck and for the build put in blocks to screw the deck down so I could have it fixed or off as required. (Photo A B)
-
But, because of the difficulty waterproofing and making it look neat I decided to permanently fix it, but in such a way that it should be possible, in an emergency, to remove it without destroying the deck or the hull.
I fitted a beam between the screw fixing blocks and applied white epoxy filler to it. (Photo C D)
-
Then masked of the deck and screwed it down onto the epoxy.
After smoothing it down and removing tape this leaves a neat joint. (Photo E F)
-
So, with all the outstanding questions resolved, I will spend some of the winter days adding the model detailing. I am not sure how far I will go as I quite like the uncluttered look.
I will add the occasional update.
At some time, I must look at the hull paint finish which has not been very successful. But that might be a different thread.
Merry Christmas All
-
The last 6 months have flown, and the world has been going mad around us, but Schooner Annie IS FINISHED
Because the boat is not to a specific scale adding detail can make the boat look out of proportion. Whilst there is nothing wrong with this I do like the lines of the uncluttered deck and decided to do some minimal finishing details to the main cabin top Pic F1 F2 and added a skylight window to forward hatch. PicF3 F4
-
Not sure why font size above so small [size=0pt]The last 6 months have flown, and the world has been going mad around us, but Schooner Annie IS FINISHED[/size]
[size=0pt]Because the boat is not to a specific scale adding detail can make the boat look out of proportion. Whilst there is nothing wrong with this I do like the lines of the uncluttered deck and decided to do some minimal finishing details to the main cabin top Pic F1 F2 and added a skylight window to forward hatch. PicF3 F4[/size]
-
[size=0pt]I am very pleased with overall finished look Pic F5 F6 F7[/size]
-
[size=0pt]And so, to the lake. You may have noticed in pics F5,6,7, the boat is in a trolly.[/size]
[size=0pt]At the lake the boat must be fully assembled and rigged where the car is parked, including inserting the heavy keel, and fitting the sails whilst pointing into the wind and then all 9 kg with sails flapping got to the water’s edge. Not a problem for the young and fit but as I was 82 last week (or at least my back was) this has required a lot of thinking about. The trolly allows all this to be done at waist hight Pic F8 F8a[/size]
-
[size=0pt]On the water[/size]
[size=0pt]Her maiden voyage was in very light winds but enough to show all the attention to detail and the excellent design has exceeded my expectations. K9 K10 K11 K12 The Thames barge belongs to a fellow club member.[/size]
-
[size=0pt]I have not done anything like this before. When I started the thread 18 months ago in lock down, I had no idea how it would go, but over 200 photos later I have not only enjoyed it but found the process helped me to rationalise the build as it progressed and spurred me to complete it.[/size]
[size=0pt]An amazing number of people have viewed it and I hope everyone got something out of it, as I did. My thanks to those who commented and to Garry Webb who designed Annie and produced the plans.[/size]
-
Absolutely beautiful! Be proud and "Build On". Cheers... Dennis :-))
-
Looks great, many thanks for sharing your progress
-
She looks beautiful.
When I suggested the model back in July 2020 I didn't expect you would build one. I think that they are a lovely elegant model and I started to look forward to the build once we sorted out your picture posting problems.
Congratulations.
What's next?