Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Bait Boats => Topic started by: taffybouy on February 24, 2021, 11:11:01 am
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Folks,
This is a long post so please be patient. I've included a wiring diagram of the existing setup and I'll try to give you the story and then the points I'd like help with.
I've done some homework already but there are a number of grey areas and I'm not just talking about my hair!!!
So, I have an AT Procat bait boat. It stopped working because the handset board was corroded. I took it to a model RC shop local to me on the Wirral and the guy really didn't want to touch it as he wasn't sure about opening it up. I convinced him saying that I'd seal it but didn't really know where to start with the internals.
He changed out the handset converting to 2.4 but here's where the issues start. Even though it now worked things were back to front. forward on the stick went backwards and left went right etc.. The reverse function on the handset did nothing to alter things.
At this point I wasn't bothered because at least I could use it.
During one early morning take and rebaiting or reboating as I like to call it, I wasn't entirely with it and steered it into shallow water getting the hopper door stuck and almost losing the boat.
This made me think of opening it up and getting things sorted and is where I am now.
Boat works but is back to front, underpowered on one motor and won't turn properly to one side.
Points for answering please:
Repair the existing:
1: Is there anything I can get to check the RPM of the motors to ensure they are both fine? Is there a measurement of resistance I can do with a fluke mutlimeter for example or something I can connect to the prop and let it rip to count their speed?
2: Looking at my wiring diagram, is there any way I can power the new handset from the power switch rather than directly from the battery? Is there a reason why it has to be direct from the battery may be a better question to ask?
3: VCC CH1 connects and works powering the motors and uses a 2 pin connection on one stick. VCC CH 2 only has 1 pin and doesn't seem to cut the motor when turned to the right whereas it does cut the motor when turned to the left. This confuses me to bogglement. There is space for a pin to be soldered onto the controller board which is what I'm tempted to do. Would you suggest this would resolve my issue or is not soldered there already because of a reason?
With the above being bespoke would you suggest replacing some parts for off the shelf products as per the below:
1: New esc's removing the function from the controller board?
2: My handset is a throttle left control stick and a steering right control stick. Can I still use this 2 channel handset keeping in mind that the hopper door releases when I go back and right on the control sticks?
3: If I need to remove the hopper control from the controller board too how can I open the hopper without an extra channel on the handset? The hopper seems to use a single wire which heats the wire pulling it tight and opening the hopper.
4: The main action of the controller board at this point would just be the LED lights which flash when its lost signal and go solid when signal is locked to the handset. Do I actually need it for this and is there another output from the new parts I could tap into for this function?
I appreciate I've given 2 scenarios here but this is logic I'm working from.
Repair or replace is the first question I need advice on then I need to work through the rest using your advice and experience.
I want the boat to be usable and hopefully not need to open it up again so something that will last. Money isn't the main driving force on this, function and reliability are, but in the same breath I'm not swimming in it so keeping costs reasonable would be great.
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Lets see if this pic attachment works better as the last went wonky for some reason
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Hi Taffy, glad you got the hang of posting photos, not having used a control board before I can't help with your problems, I use ESC's for motors and servos for any other functions, I know PCB boards in a wet or damp environment can have problems with the many tiny solder joints, I hope that some of the Bait Boat guys may be able to help.
Joe
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Would you be able to shed any light on the replacement options then?
Ignore the controller board being part of the scenario and go with new reliable parts.
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...Even though it now worked things were back to front. forward on the stick went backwards and left went right etc.. The reverse function on the handset did nothing to alter things.
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There is probably an additional step in the instructions, like rebinding or resetting.
Points for answering please:
Repair the existing:
1: Is there anything I can get to check the RPM of the motors to ensure they are both fine? Is there a measurement of resistance I can do with a fluke mutlimeter for example or something I can connect to the prop and let it rip to count their speed?
An infra red tacho (from ebay) will confirm what you already know. The motors are probably fine. Look for the reason one motor is turning more slowly.
2: Looking at my wiring diagram, is there any way I can power the new handset from the power switch rather than directly from the battery? Is there a reason why it has to be direct from the battery may be a better question to ask?
To answer, I'd need a clearer mental picture.
3: VCC CH1 connects and works powering the motors and uses a 2 pin connection on one stick. VCC CH 2 only has 1 pin and doesn't seem to cut the motor when turned to the right whereas it does cut the motor when turned to the left. This confuses me to bogglement. There is space for a pin to be soldered onto the controller board which is what I'm tempted to do. Would you suggest this would resolve my issue or is not soldered there already because of a reason?
CH2 only needs a signal and nothing else.
You already have a 0volt reference in CH1. Your Fluke meter continuity will show that.
Adding a redundant wire creates a parallel path, which you don't want.
With the above being bespoke would you suggest replacing some parts for off the shelf products as per the below:
1: New esc's removing the function from the controller board?
2: My handset is a throttle left control stick and a steering right control stick. Can I still use this 2 channel handset keeping in mind that the hopper door releases when I go back and right on the control sticks?
3: If I need to remove the hopper control from the controller board too how can I open the hopper without an extra channel on the handset? The hopper seems to use a single wire which heats the wire pulling it tight and opening the hopper.
4: The main action of the controller board at this point would just be the LED lights which flash when its lost signal and go solid when signal is locked to the handset. Do I actually need it for this and is there another output from the new parts I could tap into for this function?
I assume it is only a 3 function transmitter and receiver you got from the shop.
You generate more & better suggestions from more people if you describe what you have. - photos, radio and boat make/model/revision, internet links etc.
I've seen some online photos of both sides the procat controller boards that matches your sketch on an old bait boat forum. I understand a lot from a photo but I don't know the common faults. I suggest tracing the circuit in more detail and continuity test any switch or relay contacts.
I appreciate I've given 2 scenarios here but this is logic I'm working from.
Repair or replace is the first question I need advice on then I need to work through the rest using your advice and experience.
I want the boat to be usable and hopefully not need to open it up again so something that will last. Money isn't the main driving force on this, function and reliability are, but in the same breath I'm not swimming in it so keeping costs reasonable would be great.
I have no hands on experience of bait boats. I've sourced parts for a bait boat maker and designed RC electrics.
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Even though it now worked things were back to front. forward on the stick went backwards and left went right etc.. The reverse function on the handset did nothing to alter things.
There is probably an additional step in the instructions, like rebinding or resetting.
There is definitely a step that I found yesterday whilst looking at the manual I finally found on the web. I have an Absima sr2s 2 ch HH with a R3FS receiver. It states there's a method of checking then correcting this.
Thanks for confirming this as I was wondering if it was worth a try.
3: VCC CH1 connects and works powering the motors and uses a 2 pin connection on one stick. VCC CH 2 only has 1 pin and doesn't seem to cut the motor when turned to the right whereas it does cut the motor when turned to the left. This confuses me to bogglement. There is space for a pin to be soldered onto the controller board which is what I'm tempted to do. Would you suggest this would resolve my issue or is not soldered there already because of a reason?
CH2 only needs a signal and nothing else.You already have a 0volt reference in CH1. Your Fluke meter continuity will show that.Adding a redundant wire creates a parallel path, which you don't want.
This is what I wanted to understand before messing with anything else. Even though it doesn't work properly I was unwilling to do anything else to the original parts without a little more understanding. Thanks very much.
I'll get a more detailed diagram of the controller board over later today. I know the board has 2 relays on it and they seem to be engaging but I haven't traced the paths using a fluke yet.
I'll leave the points for replacing with off the shelf parts for now but I'd still like to revisit that just in case things go wrong in the future. Whilst I'm gaining understanding now I can detail the possibility and parts required and the method of creating the necessary components.
You've been really helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to sift through points for me.
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There should be three wires from CH 1 if only a signal wire from CH 2.
Two feed the low voltage power to 2.4GHz receiver and a third (as in CH 2) is pwm pulses from receiver to the procat board.That's the way they they were originally connected.
It may not require a full circuit schematic to pinpoint a fault or misalignment.
The descriptive function of the relay and the mosfet transistors (metal tab & 3 pins) would suffice.
Are the motors supposed to be disabled or change direction as the relays click?
Perhaps youtube is where I saw procat boards so I'll have another look.
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I am unsure of whether the boat should cut the motor or spin in a different direction as I never really paid attention to it whilst it worked, only when it stopped working. When the new handset was in place I've had these issues so I have no real baseline to work from.
As for the CH1 connections, there are only 2 pins on the board whereas CH2 only has 1.
Again, I have no idea if it was like this prior to the handset replacement but it doesn't look like the extra pins were used to me, far too clean.
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As for the CH1 connections, there are only 2 pins on the board whereas CH2 only has 1.
Again, I have no idea if it was like this prior to the handset replacement but it doesn't look like the extra pins were used to me, far too clean.
I think it unlikely there is an omission if it was converted by the model shop. However your diagram seems to point to a missing CH 1.
If the procat controller reacts to CH1 on the transmitter then there must be a feed.Do you understand a need for two sbec power connections to the 2.4 GHz receiver plus digital pulses for every receiver channel used?
All the fault tracing you need can be done with the various Fluke meter functions.
Here it would be looking for supply voltage (five volts?) and CH1 & 2 changing between 0.1 to 0.2 volt as you move sticks on the 2.4GHz transmitter (or handset)
If the relay cases are of clear plastic you can eyeball the contacts, otherwise you have to trace faults with a meter.
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Do you understand a need for two sbec power connections to the 2.4 GHz receiver plus digital pulses for every receiver channel used?
No sorry, I don't understand the need.
All the fault tracing you need can be done with the various Fluke meter functions.Here it would be looking for supply voltage (five volts?) and CH1 & 2 changing between 0.1 to 0.2 volt as you move sticks on the 2.4GHz transmitter (or handset)If the relay cases are of clear plastic you can eyeball the contacts, otherwise you have to trace faults with a meter.
I've tried this and can't see anything wrong. The relays are G2RL-2
Both relays work fine when the control sticks are used seperately. Use the control sticks together and thats where it seems to play up. This tells me there is something else at play here.
I also noticed the Normal/Reverse only works on one control stick, the one for steering rather than thrust.
I'll get some pictures uploaded of the board in a moment
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Pics of the board
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Pics of the board
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OK, I now understand the sbec output 2.5 volt and the red wires on the red plugs are the two channel signals.
That seems overkill when a resistor would do as good a job. I wonder if 2.5v is a touch too low for the procat board to read 2.5 v channel pulses.
Is that what you have written?
I'm at the limit of remote diagnosis ability without seeing the component side copper tracks
I would need to get a better picture a circuit schematic to know if there is actually a fault or misalignment.
It would seem quicker & easier to seek out someone local with RC electric knowledge. They don't need to have seen a bait boat.
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Could you spare a moment to consider what new parts could be used instead of what I have?
I'm thinking a servo could replace the existing hopper door release.
1 channel needed for this.
I need 2 motors so I'd guess 2 esc's
2 more channels?
Something to control the lights.
Another channel.
4 channel handset and receiver.
Is there anything else to add?
Ideally I'd like to use the 7.2v batteries I already have.
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Hi taffboy, if you are using the motors for steering as I presume you are you will have to convert your transmitter
left or right stick depending on what mode the set is to ratchet instead of return spring.
You will as you say need a switcher to work your lights.
If the bait dropper works by a solenoid you could use a switcher for that also.
Hope this helps.
John
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Taffybouy, if it was me, with your present gear, I'd start by ordering a pack of 9g servos from Ebay & then consider future use of a usb to 2s lipo charger, 2s lipo batteries before buying another 2.4GHz set.Another thread on radio suggestions might save you some search time or headache from choosing. An indication of your use & budget with a catchy title will help.
Meanwhile I'd suggest you soldier on to solve technical problems & use the forum to find a local helper if the shop won't iron out niggles.My method with something unfamiliar is to generate a circuit schematic from the copper traces.
The motor rpm problem is probably down to the need for cleaning and lubricating.
What voltage does the sbec output?
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Or use a steering mixer which will let you use both motors on 1 channel.
Bob
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I am unsure of whether the boat should cut the motor or spin in a different direction as I never really paid attention to it whilst it worked, only when it stopped working. When the new handset was in place I've had these issues so I have no real baseline to work from...
Operating function can be determined from a circuit schematic.
The schematic forms a guide for problem tracing.
For example, I would start by testing corrosion or a welded relay contact by the Fluke meter continuity range. It can't be done from a click.
The mirrored board underside should match your sketch.Motors are wired to relay contact pairs numbered 3,6 so the relay therefore normally connects motors(3,6) to 2,7 then changes over to contact pair 4,5 when energised.
If 4,5 terminals are not connected to anything by copper tracks then the relay function would be to disable the motor.If contacts 2,5 are wired together by copper tracks (also 4,7) the function of each relay is to reverse the motor.
That's a start! :}
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Operating function can be determined from a circuit schematic.
The schematic forms a guide for problem tracing.
For example, I would start by testing corrosion or a welded relay contact by the Fluke meter continuity range. It can't be done from a click.
The mirrored board underside should match your sketch.Motors are wired to relay contact pairs numbered 3,6 so the relay therefore normally connects motors(3,6) to 2,7 then changes over to contact pair 4,5 when energised.
If 4,5 terminals are not connected to anything by copper tracks then the relay function would be to disable the motor.If contacts 2,5 are wired together by copper tracks (also 4,7) the function of each relay is to reverse the motor.
That's a start! :}
Right.
Lets start with 4 and 5. These don't appear to be connected to anything by copper tracks.
I used the multimeter and 2/5 pin out to each other and 4/7 pin out to each other.
The above makes me believe it reverses one side as you describe.
I've then moved to basics and put some paper in the prop to confirm this works and the above is correct.
The only time the one motor cuts off is when the thrust stick is being used. Keep in mind that if I was to reverse and use the steering stick to either side it activates the hopper. I wonder if this is different to how it was previously done hence the issues?
I've enjoyed this and am very grateful for your help.
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OK, I now understand the sbec output 2.5 volt and the red wires on the red plugs are the two channel signals.
That seems overkill when a resistor would do as good a job. I wonder if 2.5v is a touch too low for the procat board to read 2.5 v channel pulses.
Is that what you have written?
I'm at the limit of remote diagnosis ability without seeing the component side copper tracks
I would need to get a better picture a circuit schematic to know if there is actually a fault or misalignment.
It would seem quicker & easier to seek out someone local with RC electric knowledge. They don't need to have seen a bait boat.
The SBEC is a 5 or 6v output. I've checked and it's set with a jumper to 5v. I've tested this and it is indeed outputting 5.14v.
It does say its a 8 to 24v input and although I'm only using a 7.2v battery pack it.s still staying with the same output.
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Hi taffboy, if you are using the motors for steering as I presume you are you will have to convert your transmitter
left or right stick depending on what mode the set is to ratchet instead of return spring.
You will as you say need a switcher to work your lights.
If the bait dropper works by a solenoid you could use a switcher for that also.
Hope this helps.
John
Cheers for this, it will give me some options if the repair fails.
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I've been trawling the interweb and youtube videos for anyone with a procat so I can see their original handsets and how the steering was done and it looks like it's the same as mine. Left stick for forward/reverse and right stock for steering.
Not sure if that helps at all but it's a little more info
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The SBEC is a 5 or 6v output. I've checked and it's set with a jumper to 5v. I've tested this and it is indeed outputting 5.14v.
It does say its a 8 to 24v input and although I'm only using a 7.2v battery pack it.s still staying with the same output.
Sbec set at 5volt is enough to use a channel-3 servo. The s3fs receiver is ok down to 4.0 volt so could otherwise tap off the procat board at one of the red CH1,2 plugs and use a resistor for filtering.
An underperforming or part drained six cell Nickel battery can drop below 6.0 volt when you throttle up and sbecs @ 5v output will drop out @ 6 volt input. That is something to consider in future upgrades.
Remedies are regular pulse charging of the existing battery or migrating to 2s, 7.4V Lipo packs or two individual 18650 (£2 powerbank) cells.
Look up 2s or 7.4v bargraph module and and also Lipo alarm. They are inexpensive and very useful indicators which will show this beyond dispute.
I wonder if the procat board supports different turning modes or if a low battery gives you a problem with loosing reverse. Can you trace what supplies juice to the relay coils? (pins 1,8) That helps with reverse problem diagnosis!
If relay coil power is from a regulated 5v, 1 amp line it would also be possible for receiver to dispense with the sbec and tap off from a red plug, as indicated above. The sbec would be provision for servo in conjunction with 8.4v-24v drive battery.
The power resistor might be a dropper to power 5v relay coils straight from the battery.
p.s. R3FS receiver PDF (https://downloads.absima.com/english/Receiver/3%20Channel%20SVC%20RX%20English%202020022.pdf) 790kb
I take it the gyro function is disabled and the trismitter sticks are at 100% throw setting.
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I see why more rc channels was in the offing. Transmitter pdf (https://downloads.absima.com/2000021%20SR2S_Manual_EN.pdf) 8.72 MB is 2-channel with a 3-channel Rx
...I also noticed the Normal/Reverse only works on one control stick, the one for steering rather than thrust...
The parts to do that are there. The same bits are used to turn left/right via the steering channel (2 x 2pole relays & 2 x throttle drive transistors).
Turning can done in two other ways:-
- WW1 tank style, by forward or reverse on one side only, other side stopped. (by transistor: off)
- By spinning on the spot by opposite rotation (both left & right transistors: on & one relay energised).
So is it also supposed to do as you described? The parts must be in full working order if 2. can be done. Otherwise, you have to test continuity of 3>4 & 5>6 in the energised position.
Logical though that is, it would mean you have to do something extra to dispense bait without moving off station.
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Sbec set at 5volt is enough to use a channel-3 servo. The s3fs receiver is ok down to 4.0 volt so could otherwise tap off the procat board at one of the red CH1,2 plugs and use a resistor for filtering.
An underperforming or part drained six cell Nickel battery can drop below 6.0 volt when you throttle up and sbecs @ 5v output will drop out @ 6 volt input. That is something to consider in future upgrades.
Remedies are regular pulse charging of the existing battery or migrating to 2s, 7.4V Lipo packs or two individual 18650 (£2 powerbank) cells.
Look up 2s or 7.4v bargraph module and and also Lipo alarm. They are inexpensive and very useful indicators which will show this beyond dispute.
I'll check out your suggestions, thanks for this as it helps my understanding.
I wonder if the procat board supports different turning modes or if a low battery gives you a problem with loosing reverse. Can you trace what supplies juice to the relay coils? (pins 1,8) That helps with reverse problem diagnosis!
If relay coil power is from a regulated 5v, 1 amp line it would also be possible for receiver to dispense with the sbec and tap off from a red plug, as indicated above. The sbec would be provision for servo in conjunction with 8.4v-24v drive battery.
The power resistor might be a dropper to power 5v relay coils straight from the battery.
p.s. R3FS receiver PDF (https://downloads.absima.com/english/Receiver/3%20Channel%20SVC%20RX%20English%202020022.pdf) 790kb
I take it the gyro function is disabled and the trismitter sticks are at 100% throw setting.
I've got 6 batteries in total. I've found 2 of them are faulty and drop drastically on load so these have been sidelined, not binned yet. The others are fine and hold solid with 2 being new because I was informed some time ago that this is often the most common cause of issues.
Theres a cap just before it (relay) linking into the common ground. Both relays have one UF105.
The rest of this sails above me right now but I'll try to google things and expand my understanding from what you've said. Thanks again for your patience.
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I see why more rc channels was in the offing. Transmitter pdf (https://downloads.absima.com/2000021%20SR2S_Manual_EN.pdf) 8.72 MB is 2-channel with a 3-channel Rx
The parts to do that are there. The same bits are used to turn left/right via the steering channel (2 x 2pole relays & 2 x throttle drive transistors).
Turning can done in two other ways:-
- WW1 tank style, by forward or reverse on one side only, other side stopped. (by transistor: off)
- By spinning on the spot by opposite rotation (both left & right transistors: on & one relay energised).
So is it also supposed to do as you described? The parts must be in full working order if 2. can be done. Otherwise, you have to test continuity of 3>4 & 5>6 in the energised position.
Logical though that is, it would mean you have to do something extra to dispense bait without moving off station.
2 is correct. If I was to use the steering control on its own it performs perfectly. If I was to use the thrust control as well as the steering then it only turn to one side properly. I just find it very difficult to drop the thrust and use the steering on its own as the momentum of the boat drop significantly.
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2 is correct. If I was to use the steering control on its own it performs perfectly. If I was to use the thrust control as well as the steering then it only turn to one side properly. I just find it very difficult to drop the thrust and use the steering on its own as the momentum of the boat drop significantly.
I could be wrong but my initial thought is the hardware is ok but rc trim ( particularly rudder) needs very precise adjustment because the procat board mixes the throttle and rudder together. Perhaps the influence of rudder needs to be dialled back.
Try rudder trim adjustment until motors are matched going forward when the rudder lever is centred.
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I'll give that a try although I did mess about with things before taking everything apart.
I've managed to pull one of the pins off the board and my soldering iron has just packed in so I'm waiting for a new one to arrive. Don't fancy attempting re-attaching the pin with my gas soldering iron, temp controlled all the way for PCB works.
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Cranked the opposite way, the listed measures would give problems that came with the new set so, logically, they would help.
- Receiver instructions call the heading hold, gyro stabilised mode (for drift cars) S.V.C. and it needs to be switched off.
- Choose a failsafe position for both transmitter sticks that kills the throttle whenever the transmitter is off.
- Turn the transmitter's throttle gain to 100%
- Steering gain at the minimum that allows "spin on the spot" speed.
They are from R3FS receiver PDF (https://downloads.absima.com/english/Receiver/3%20Channel%20SVC%20RX%20English%202020022.pdf) but I don't see the S2RS transmitter gain controls that may be needed to replicate the original AT Procat receiver/transmitter pair.
They could be hardwired with one resistor in the transmitter or simulated by going very easy on the rudder.
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Good news and bad news.
Good news is my temp controlled soldering iron arrived and I got the pin back on the board so I could test.
Bad news is embarrassing for me but is really good news, because it was indeed a settings issue on the controller. 100% gain on throttle and steering trim reduced to lowest and the steering now works with the throttle stick. Seems to do what I'd expect which is switch one motor to reverse whilst the other continues forward. This now works in both directions for left and right.
This just leaves 2 issues for me:
Can I tap off another part of the board to power the SBEC or should I just introduce a power switch to the supply to the SBEC?
What do I need to do to get the throttle the right way around i.e. forward to go forward and backwards to go backwards?
Is this back to the manual of the receiver?
Thanks again
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The two red plugs swapped (between receiver slots is safer) solves the problem.
The sbec can be dispensed with and you can add a 5v connection to the receiver from the 5v on the procat board.
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Been a bit of an idiot again.
If I change trim switch to normal on the controller it works in the right direction. I have to change the trim control slider to full in order to stop the motor spinning backwards though and the full throttle forwards is painfully slow whereas backwards is rapid.
Not sure if that even makes sense to me so I'll try it again.
2 switches on the controller for rev and nor. Only just realised that st stands for steering (which I knew and have played with) and th stands for throttle. Sorry, I'm a plonker.
So with the steering and throttle both in nor and both sticks in the center I have to move the trim slider on the throttle to fully forward in order to stop the motors spinning backwards.
Backwards on the stick spins 2 or 3 times faster than forwards.
If I were to move the throttle switch to rev and leave the trim slider in the middle position it behaves itself and spins the motors fast when pushing forward or backwards. If I move the slider to fully backwards it spins the motors faster when the stick is pushed backwards.
I'm still unsure whether the steering is the right way around until I put it in the water.
There's still something up with the throttle in my opinion, I think it needs spinning around somehow. I'm just charging the batteries again to rule this out as I've been playing with it a lot recently.
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usually if the sticks are not working in the right direction just change them with the REV/NOR switches.
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If ony it was as simple as that when there is on-board mixing, two motors and an aftermarket product with no diagnostics or push-button reset.
Unfortunately it isn't and taffybouy can tell you. :}
Here is how I would approach it:-If one motor turns the wrong way AND only one relay energises in reverse throttle then, disregard which motor actually rotated in the correct direction. Swap wires on the motor that engages its relay coil when throttling forward.
If you now have both motors rotating the wrong way then toggle the throttle reverse switch on the transmitter so you can have both relays off at forward.
You can then procede from there and crank up to 100% gain & use the relay clicking as a guide to:-- zero the rudder trim and
- trim the throttle midway between the relays clicking before reverse and forward throttle
- repeat if needed
The sbec before switch ensures the R3FS is settled before the main board is powered up. The procat controller should allow for that but a reset delay can be added if it misbehaves. The same behaviour would show up if the switch is left ON and power comes on by battery connection.
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Had a bit of a nightmare.
I managed to let the controller board touch the hopper release with power on. The hopper release is a wire which heats up and contracts opening the hopper door latch.
It's managed to short something on the board and now the lights don't work. Hopper wire has burnt out too.
Steering still seems to behave but it's another thing to repair now.
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How odd! That reads like a thermostat. If there is a reason it is preferred over an electromagnet it would logically be cost or accidental release or the safety delay. Do you know?
Three family members, including myself, have had washing machine door catches fail so stuff that technology and similar Heath Robinson nonsense.
Youtube viewing taught me how to strip down and service bicycles but has yet to reveal anthing useful about the working parts of a bait boat. I'm out my depth.
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I'm out of my depth is a real tag line of mine since messing with this bait boat.
The biggest issue is the boats are deliberately unique to the manufacturer so the average diy'er can't repair, they must replace.
I'm opting for replacement off the shelf parts now.
Esc's x 2. How do I work out what current these need to be from my existing motors?
My motors are fully encased so I can't see anything of them. Just 2 wires to them and I think they are brushed motors.
Vtail mixer.
New 4 (or more) channel receiver and Transmitter
Re use the sbec and batteries
New servo for the hopper door.
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A heated wire to open the hopper ? that's a new one on me when a solenoid would do a much better job and a servo even better, from following your problems with the workings of this boat, I think you have made the right decision, but you need to establish whether the motors are brushed or brushless it makes a difference to the ESC's.
Joe.
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Here's what I'm thinking after doing more research:
Planet TS2+2 receiver/transmitter
Vtail mixer mtronics
hobbywing 60a brushed esc (2 of)
Push/Pull solenoid for the hopper door
Already have a Turnigy SBEC which can be used for the reciever power.
Already have 6 cell NiMH 7.2v batteries (4 of, 2 new September 20 and 2 new January 20)
Can you see anything else that I'll need to get things working or do I have it covered?
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Yeah that would do it, personally I'd dispense with the vtail mixer and have a motor on each stick (Tank Steering) of course you'd need both hands to control, you haven't mentioned the lights you could use a remote switch or hard wire them to an on board switch.
Joe.
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I was just thinking of a remote switch for the lights as I have enough channels on the receiver.
With regards to the steering, how does that work with the receiver?
It's a throttle on left and steering on the right so I guess I'd need a different receiver?
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Tank steering you would plug the port esc into the throttle channel and the strbd esc into the elevator channel or the right hand stick up and down, the remote switches would work best with a switch channels on the transmitter so I would go with a six channel set There's not that much difference in the price of a four channel and a six, you can of course get remote switches that work by jabbing the stick to turn on and off but I prefer switches on the Tx.
Joe
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hi, thought I would jump in on this, Im in a very similar position to the poster, and having been following the thread. Ive decided to strip the boat entirely of existing kit (I shorted out the rx board attached to the main board) and have gone with 2escs, fs-i6 controller. I can do the mixing on the handset which eliminates the need for a separate mixer inside the boat. This will enable all steering from one stick and leave the other stick free for hopper release/maybe leds.
In order to have dimmable led function i will get another esc and wire this in to either vr-a or vr-b on the handset which will then control those. Hopper release... so the heated wire is memory wire/muscle wire/nitinol and works by shrinking when voltage is applied and it reaches a given temperature. I think I can control this via a spring loaded left hand stick by either moving left or right, or I rip that out and move to servo release
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I've just received all my bits I ordered. I'm thinking of a push and pull servo for the hopper release.
I'm also thinking of a remote on of switch for the lights.
I'll report back when I've had the chance to put it all together.
Is appreciate you updating this thread with your progress please
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Will do. Just waiting on everything being delivered. Like you i tried working with the existing board but it proved a nightmare. Easier to rip out and replace. Ive gone for the flysky handset as it has onboard mixing so its less stuff inside the boat. Ive mucked around with my own boats (microcats) for a few years, but needed a crash course in rc wiring thanks to this forum!
The manufacturers of the boat quoted £190 to convert to 2.4ghz
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I had the same quote. Seems a lot when you consider how much its cost for the bits you bought doesn't it?
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It does when all they do is swap out the board. The boat doesnt need to come apart. But he will normally charge £25 for split and reseal the boat. Then range testing etc
They are very baaic inside, ita the custom board that gives everyone the headaches!
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Im not sure how you are getting on, but i got the kit so spent my lunch hour wiring everything up and having a test.
Ive managed to get mixing working so throttle and steering is on the right hand stick (its what im used to)
ive got the hopper working with the muscle wire when i set the limits to 20% (so it doesnt overheat)
Cannot get LED's working on an esc, they flash when connected but when using either the dial VR-A or one of the left hand sticks nothing happens.
The other problem i have discovered is that my escs dont provide 100%power in reverse which is an issue for going in reverse and also turning. Are there escs out there that provide 100% power for fwd and rev? only need a 15 or 20amp esc
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Although I've got all the bits I've not started it yet. I've got an exam next week and another the week after so I'm focusing on them and will pick the boat up again in April and report back.
I did notice that Esc's had the option for break/stop and reverse but didn't pay attention to the percentage though.
Which esc's did you get?
Mine are mentioned in the posts but as I said, I haven't tested them yet so not sure how they'll perform.
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It would appear they are some Chinese imitation hobbyking escs. Work perfectly fine in fwd. Ive sussed the leds, i just needed to swap polarity so im pleased about that. Im just wsiting to hear back about the mtroniks marine escs to see if they give equal power in rev as they do fwd. Looks like it is quite common for escs to have a 70/30 split in fwd and rev power.
Good luck in the exams
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It would appear they are some Chinese imitation hobbyking escs. Work perfectly fine in fwd. Ive sussed the leds, i just needed to swap polarity so im pleased about that. Im just wsiting to hear back about the mtroniks marine escs to see if they give equal power in rev as they do fwd. Looks like it is quite common for escs to have a 70/30 split in fwd and rev power.
Good luck in the exams
Or the "A" version Link courtesy of the same German importer as taffybouy's radio. PDF download (https://downloads.absima.com/english/ESCBD/Brushed-esc-manual-2100003-4-ENGLISH.pdf)
As Absima's English language instruction says,
The difference between “BRUSHED” and “BRUSHED CRAWLER & BOAT” ESC:“Brushed” and “Brushed-Crawler& Boat” ESCs have different backward-running modes.“Brushed” ESCuses “Double-Click” method to make the car go backward. When you move the throttle stick from forward zone to backward zone for the first time, the ESC begins to brake the motor, the motor speeds down but still running, so the backwardaction is NOT happened at this moment. When the throttle stick is moved to the backward zone again (The 2nd “click”), if the motor speed is slowed down to zero (i.e. stopped), the backward action will be activated. The “Double-Click” method prevents mistakenly reverse when the brake function is frequently used in steering.
In short, it is no use in a boat!
The text below is copy/pasted from one out of thousands of unscrupulous oriental Ebay vendors of the same item.The false bait is scored through.
Description:
Waterproof Quicrun WP 1040 40A Brushed ESC Speed Controller BEC for Boat #1665
Features:
100% brand new and high quality
Support 380, 540, 550, 750, 775 brush motor
Water-proof and dust-proof, suitable for all-weather condition races.
Small size with built-in capacitor module.
Three running modes: Fwd/Br, Fwd/Rev/Br and Fwd/Rev, fits for various vehicles (Fwd =Forward, Br=Brake, Rev=Reverse).
Great current endurance capability.
Great built-in BEC output capacity.
Automatic throttle range calibration, easy to use.
Easy to set the ESC parameters with jumpers.
Multiple protections: Low voltage cut-off protection for battery / Over-heat protection / Throttle signal loss protection.
Specifications:
Power input interface: XT60
Part: Speed Controllers ESC
For Vehicle Type: Buggy, Car, Truck, Truggy
Model: for Hobbywing Quicrun 1040 Brushed Waterproof ESC
BEC: 5V/ 2A
2-3S Lipo, 5-9S NIMH
Size: approx 4.4x 2.8x2.6cm
Color: multicolor
Net eight: 65g
Package Includes:
1x 40A Brushed ESC Controller
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Thanks for the link. The ones i purchased appear to be the quicrun 1060's which by all accounts are used in quite a few boats.
Anu ideas if the viper marine series provide same power output for fwd and rev? I cant find any specs for that particular requirement. Or an alternative that is suitable?
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Hey folks, sorry for the delay in getting back onto this, I had some exams for my apprenticeship to focus on then I wanted a bit of free time to relax and go fishing. I'm back on this now and I passed my apprenticeship with distinction, well chuffed with the outcome so I'm hoping for something similar with this bait boat of mine.
I've got all the parts hooked up and have found that the V-tail mixer doesn't appear to do what it should. After reading the info it looks like it's a servo mixer and I'm assuming I should have bought a motor mixer if there is such a thing?
With the mixer removed the channels operate on each stick for each motor but the right stick (ch2) is positioned for steering as opposed to forward/reverse.
Can I simply rotate the right stick and use the boat in a tank style steering?
If not, can anyone advise me on a mixer please that will do the job?
I have a servo that will need hooking up at some point and some lights but thought I'd focus on steering first to get it sorted and deal with servo/lights afterwards.
I've attached a pic of my parts and listed them below:
Planet TS2+2 RX/TX
MTronics VTail mixer (now removed because it doesn't seem to work correctly)
Hobbywing 60a brushed ESC WP-1060
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Ignore me regarding the mixer, I changed my battery and it seemed to function for a while then stopped. I think I just need to charge my batteries then try again. I'll report back later tonight after charging a couple of batteries.
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In your pic it looks like you have both esc red wires connected to the mixer. Is that right for those esc's -do they both have bec output enabled?
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That's a very good question and not one I have an answer for. I just plugged things in and made sure jumpers were set to what I thought they should be set to.
If I were to remove a red cable would that be from Channel 2 usually?
Also, would you suggest having the esc's set to fwd/brk/rev or just fwd/rev. The later sounds more logical to me as it's a boat not a car.
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So the answer to your question of the ESC's providing BEC is yes. From further reading I can see that channel 2 should provide the BEC so I've removed it from channel 1 output.
With the additional reading I can also see that it suggests to operate the ESC's in crawler/boat mode which is fwd/rev. I have removed the jumper on the ESC's to achieve this mode.
Issue I still have is that only one channel operates. I can swap around the inputs to the receiver to alter which one is active but I still can't achieve what I want or expect in that both channels activate and can work together whilst using the mixer which I believe I need.
Any suggestions on what to try next folks?
New wiring pic below.
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So apparently I'm still an idiot who doesn't know what things do!
Everything is working to spec. The CH2 needs to be active before CH1 is recognised. So in essence, if I am not going forward or reversing then the steering channel will be ignored.
Throttle on then steer left or right reduces the speed of one motor depending on the direction.
Great news. I'm all set to move on to the lights and dropper now.
I have 4 channels on my receiver (TS2+2) with CH3 and CH4 as yet unused.
CH3 is a 3 position switch which seems the most likely for a servo for the dropper. Would you agree?
CH4 is a variable dial and seems the most likely for the lights. Would you agree?
I was looking at the following servo - HXT500 Micro servo 1.2kg/0.10sec/5g. It simply needs to push or pull open the dropper door release so I don't think it needs to be anything bigger or do anything more than this but please let me know if I'm missing something I haven't considered.
I just want a simple on/off remote switch for lights. Not sure I need anything on during the day and it will save power. Convince me otherwise and any suggestions welcome as I continue my search for something suitable. Everything I can find has multiple functions and I can't find anything that can be used with the variable dial for adjusting the brightness which is something I'd like albeit, not essential.
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Got my lights sorted and working lovely.
Everything is mounted and working well and the motors are completely different with the ESC's, I'd say around 5 or 6 times faster.
The issue I am struggling with now is the bait dropper release. It was originally a muscle wire but I thought I'd change it to a servo. The issue is the servo can't be mounted in line with the release due to restrictions on space and height. I'm not sure if I've got the right part in a servo and instead should have got a push/pull solenoid or servo.
Has anyone got any suggestions on how to do it preferably with some pics as I'm coming up blank even with internet searches as the options I can find aren't possible with my restrictions.
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You have Hubby's tel no ring him he will HELP
Kelly
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If you can't mount the servo in line mount the servo at 90 degrees to the bait door catch and add a bell crank
Just a sugestion ok2
Joe.
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Right folks, I managed to sort the bait door dropper by mounting at 90 degrees and using a spring loaded pully system. Works nicely.
Next thing I want is a power light. I wanted the red and green LED lights to be the only ones for power then control the front and rear ones if required for night time use.
What's the best way to get power to them?
Would it be from the power via the power switch or is there a better way?
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So I sealed the boat and went for a test run. It didn't sink which is the best news. Lights and hopper (door release) worked fine at all distances.
Steering was squiffy. Throttle and steering wrong way round. Quick trip back home to swap them round before another test.
The issue I have now is that it doesn't reverse. Due to dual motors they turn in opposing directions so forwards turns the props inwards towards the center of the boat and reverse turns them outwards towards the outside of the boat. Both of these actions causes the boat to go forwards. From what I've read this is expected. Inwards would give better speed where-as outwards gives better steering apparently.
Any ideas what I can do to correct this?
Is there a combination of setting max/min speed or direction to compensate?
I feel there should be an acceptable reverse action to allow me to go backwards but I can't suss it out.
Any ideas or suggestions welcomed because I'm coming up blank with my reading and don't want to start messing with the throttle response without knowing if it will work or not.
Any testing or advice would be greatly appreciated folks 🤷♂️