Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Carlsson on March 30, 2021, 09:13:28 am

Title: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on March 30, 2021, 09:13:28 am
Hi Everyone!
I would like to build the HMS dreadnought of 1907.Iīve got the Trumpeter kit in 1/350 and some aftermarket stuff (wooden deck, photo-etched parts and brass turned parts).I also got some books about her as references.But here is where my problem comes from. While "Anatomy of the ship" is very detailed, I am not able to reconstruct the rigging of the ship from that book  :(( Kageroīs "HMS Dreadnought" on the other hand, would be exactly what I am looking for ... I just cannot believe that it is correct!  :((
What disturbes me most is the arrangement of the signal halyards, from the main mast down to the decks.In "Anatomy of the ship" I can find a lot of detailed views of the mast section, but nothing about the lower end of these halyards. (Where exactly and how are the mounted?)
In Kageroīs book they end far behind the mast and build a "trap" for the main crane of the ship. I just canīt believe that the Royal Navy would build such a construction ...
Is there anything out there, that is readable for a casual ship modeller but also correct?
Many ThanksAndreas
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on March 30, 2021, 09:16:40 am
Sorry for this "wall of text", I tried to format it a bit, but that wasnīt accepted, when I pressed the "Post" button  :((
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Geoff on March 30, 2021, 10:21:27 am
Ha, I completely understand the problem having just finished a 1/96 of Invincible I had the same issues. Quite where the halyards go and are fixed does seem to be something of a mystery.


I suspect the fittings were just changed around to suit preferences. Also with such ships it was quite typical to have to disengage rigging to move the main boom and other booms and the crews thought nothing of it.


Regards


Geoff
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: suffolk1928 on March 31, 2021, 11:27:55 am
There is a note in one of the articles reprinted in 'the life & ship models of Norman Ough' that suggests the rigging could be detached to allow these booms to swing out.


There is also a discussion of how they work in the Admiralty manual of seamanship vol 1. Though I can't find anything about moving the standing rigging (revenge & Queen Elizabeth class used as examples - where it was less in the way)
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: dodes on March 31, 2021, 12:38:23 pm
Know of anyone with an Admiralty seamanship manual dated about 1910, that may have the info, trouble is getting these books, otherwise its a trip to the maritime museum for a rigging plan for the class, if you are rich enough!!!
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on March 31, 2021, 02:01:45 pm
Manual of Seamanship 1909 at Caird Library. Volume 2 listed but I haven't checked about vol 1. You could....get a copy but Vol 2 is 704 pages so could be expensive! Anyhow, who said model boats was cheap :((
Tony
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on March 31, 2021, 04:01:10 pm
So, you want to tell me, that Kagero is correct, and those halyards were in the way of the main boom?
And the crew moved them out of the way, when the boom was used?
And I could find the used procedures in the Manual of Seamanship? (sorry I am not familiar with that book)


Or does the Manual of Seamanship provide a rigging plan as the Royal Navy had issued it in 1909 and therefor answer my question finally?


Andreas

Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: raflaunches on March 31, 2021, 04:38:18 pm
Andreas


It’s a difficult subject as it’s so variable and no one has a clue how they operated over 100 years ago, I have a copy of both Manuals of Seamanship and have attached the pictures of the relevant chapters which may help. The problem is that it’s one of those things that was taken for granted in that era and was probably never written down.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: raflaunches on March 31, 2021, 04:46:08 pm
Some pictures from RA Burt’s book British Battleships of World War One-
I’ve also included a picture of my version of Dreadnought as she appeared in June 1916 after a refit. It appears that in the 1906 and 1916 photos the signal halyards went to the same area as seen in my model.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: raflaunches on March 31, 2021, 04:56:17 pm
And to back up Tony H


He is correct too- many parts of the ship especially when they went to battle were removed including parts of the rigging, ships boats, stanchions, and parts of the masts. They had the manpower to do this sort of thing which today we wouldn’t even consider to be common sense.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on March 31, 2021, 05:59:40 pm
Thank you very much Nick!


I understand that it is hard to reconstruct information, that was common knowledge a hundred years ago.
But I actually thought, that for the Royal Navy with all its (or is it "her" in this case?) traditions and continuous service, itīs much more easy to get to such information.
Compared to the German Navy for example ... I have a similar issue with the SMS Markgraf, from the Kaiserīs König-class (Konig or more correct Koenig if the "ö" didnīt work) of WWI.
There is no continuity like for the Royal Navy, not after WWI and of course not, with all the losses of information, after WWII  :((


And especially for the HMS Dreadnought, which is historically famous, for being the first of her kind.
But thatīs probably the modern point of view ... in those days, when those ships still existed, she was probably "outgunned" (regarding fame) quite fast by ist successors.


I understand, that the procedures in those days where different and manpower had another meaning than today.
But in all references that I have (except Kagero!) I couldnīt find any sign of halyard or other kind of rig, that would interfere with the boom.
There are a lot of drawings in "Anatomy of the ship" which look quite authentic, but none of them shows even the idea of such an interference.


On the other hand, even the drawings in "Anatomy of the ship" seem to be inconsistent/contradictory, but that might just be me not being able to read them properly.
and knowing, that the ship has gone through a couple of refits, doesnīt make life easier either  :((
And not being a sailor AND having German as mother-tongue makes understanding of nautic-english nearly impossible  <:(


Anyhow, thanks for all the pictures.
I will do my best with the books that I have and take your version of the halyards as reference (since I like it the most  {-) ).


By the way, what is the scale of your Dreadnought?
She is not in 1/350 is she? It looks more like 1/200 ... or even larger?
I am pretty sure, that I am not able to make the fittings of the boom and boom-rig in that detail in 1/350!


Andreas











Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: raflaunches on March 31, 2021, 06:21:49 pm
Hi Andreas


No problem- the only place that you might find exact details of the modifications of the Dreadnought may be the National Maritime Museum plans section but that is an expensive route to get hold of copies of the original plans.
Despite Dreadnought being the revolutionary ship she was the exact details of features would have been identical to most other battleships of the Royal Navy of the era. This would have been common knowledge at the time and would never have been thought to be recorded as something important but to modellers it’s something we wish they had!
My model is 1:96 scale and is fully radio controlled with smoke generators inside the funnels.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Colin Bishop on March 31, 2021, 06:25:06 pm
The earlier comments are right. A lot of 'routine' things never made it into historical documentation as 'everyone knew that' and no one thought to make a written record, or if they did, it was not thought worth keeping.

On my last visit to the National Maritime Museum archives to research the plans of a liner I'm building, a lot of fittings were shown in outline only such as lifeboats and steam winches (photo below) because these were 'off the shelf' items and bought in so you have to research them separately.

There is nothing new about this. Haynes have yet to publish a user manual on building a pyramid, the ancient Egyptians never really bothered to document how they did it.

Colin
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on March 31, 2021, 07:49:29 pm
Well, as I already wrote, I understand the issue with history and common knowledge ... I just thought I am not the first one, who has got that question
and somebody worked it out ... but I guess I was a bit to starry-eyed then.


I donīt have the opportunity to visit the National Maritime Museum (not in near future) and I also do not want to spend much more money for that model (the aftermarket stuff was expensive enough  :o )
So, I will have to stick to Nickīs version and use the books I have for all other questions.


By the way, really nice work Nick, I hope I can get close in smaler scale  :-)
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on March 31, 2021, 08:05:07 pm
Hi Andreas,
Fortunately for us the print records for Royal Navy ships are rather good but a lot of the information about exactly how the operating systems worked was down to individual senior officers so was lost with their deaths. Running rigging was often, in part, one of those choices that the Captain could make from the 16th Century right up to the Dreadnought period. The various naval establishments such as the Royal School of Naval Architects, The Royal Corps of Naval Constructors and the Institute of Marine Engineers were not around until the later part of the 19th century so ships were in themselves test-beds and design was pragmatic rather, as was the case in France, centrally planned with hull design, propulsion and armaments being vested in government departments.
So, basically, halyards could be be anywhere and fixed to anything if the skipper thought it appropriate! If it looks right it probably is right :-))
Good Luck with the build,
Tony
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on March 31, 2021, 11:11:49 pm
Hm, this means then, the answer to my question finally is: I have to decide!


Which is definitely not what I expected  :o
But as Grandpa used to say: You never stop learning!
I really thought, that such things like the rigging (as a whole) was more regulated for a given type of ship and a given periode of time.
It did change over time and it was not as standardised as we think of standardisation nowadays ... but captainīs choice is far away from what I believed  :o


Thank you for all your answers and the good wishes.
I will post pictures once I achieved some publishable results, but that will take some time.
I am not the fastest modeller and actually I am still waiting for some pieces (coming from Japan, are in customs at the moment).


Best Regards
Andreas
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on April 01, 2021, 09:19:19 am
Hi Andreas,
Do not despair! Most of the rigging was designed in and some was changed during trials. It was generally only some of the running rigging that was down to the captain's experience.You only have to make some decisions!
Tony
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 04, 2021, 06:07:07 pm
Donīt worry Tony, I didnīt lose my courage  :-)


Actually I received the last bits and pieces and started with the build meanwhile (itīs way too early for pictures, but I will post some, if I have something to show)
And from the very start I found a lot of other small decisions to take ... the order of glueing and painting the various steps of the whole process for example.
But thatīs part of the job and I will work that out according to my best knowledge and experience.


But I got another question, actually again regarding those halyards:
They are two parallel strings between two blocks (actually I think they are just one string in a loop, but just for the question ...).
So I have two possibilities:
.) the simple version would be just to mount one string and "simulate" these parallel strings (and say: "Hey, itīs 1/350, thatīs to small for blocks!")
.) find a way to mount such small blocks that fit to 1/350 and mount the parallel strings.


Does anybody have an idea how to create blocks of that small size?


Cheers
Andreas

Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on April 04, 2021, 06:22:10 pm
Hi Andreas,
You can actually buy the blocks or deadeyes as part of etched sets such as the ones made by Gold Medal Models. The pic below is the set for Mikasa at 1:350 Ref. GM35035 BUT it's about 60 euros for the set. You could also use ladders etc from the set but it would be an expensive choice.I'd also suggest you have a look at www.steelnavy.com for ideas because I'm sure they use all sorts of methods to get the same effect.
Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 04, 2021, 11:44:53 pm
Hi Tony,


so you really think PE parts could do it? Well, then I will give it a try.


I already have PE sets for the Dreadnought (unfortunately they do not include blocks or deadeyes  :(( ) so I do not need any ladders or other stuff.
And I consider additional 60 euros as too much for that issue (keeping in mind, what I already have invested :o ).

[/size]But I searched for some more specialiced PE parts and while my favorit online-shops didnīt have anything useful, I found this:
https://www.bnamodelworld.com/model-ships-boats-detail-up-parts-rainbow-models-rain-3519 (https://www.bnamodelworld.com/model-ships-boats-detail-up-parts-rainbow-models-rain-3519)


[/size]Will give it a try :-)


[/size]Thanks for the pointer into the right direction!I actually didnīt believe that PE parts could be a feasable solution (at least not in this scale).Now, I am looking forward to get that set and see if it really works and how it looks! CheersAndreas

Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on April 05, 2021, 09:49:34 am
Hi Andreas,
Good Luck with the p/e. I simply couldn't use it at that scale simply because I wouldn't trust my eyesight. So I'd probably cheat with a few drops of glue!One of the best pointers I can suggest is looking at the work of Jim Baumann. If you google the name you'll see a lot of stuff that could be useful in terms of approach. Most of it is simple when you know about it but you've got to know about it first!
Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 06, 2021, 08:54:30 pm
Hi Tony


You got the point, eyesight is becoming a problem, but I think I can handle it ... for now  <:(
But working with PE is something I really like ... as long as I can handle (see) it.


Thanks for the information about Mr. Baumann, this guy is incredible!
Does he do anything else than building models?
It would be a lifetime job to read through all the articles, that describe his work ...


Thanks
Andreas
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on April 07, 2021, 02:28:26 pm
Hi Andreas,
All being well you'll have a lifetime of model boating!
I still make the odd 1/350 or 1/700 but only use the bigger bits of the kit to get a feel of the ship when and if I decide to build a big version. I just find it helpful to have a 3D maquette to look at.
Have fun with the build and keep the pictures coming!
Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 14, 2021, 12:37:06 pm
Hi Tony,


Iīve been told already, that you all like pictures  :-)
But for now I only have a few of my previous work (no ships) in a gallery here:
Carlsson (carlsson) - ModelBoatMayhem-Images (https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/carlsson/albums)


I am still working on the hull of the Dreadnought and try to work out how to add the
PE details to the build (which is important for the order of doing build and painting).
Especially the addition of the turned brass parts (masts, derricks and so on) is
more complex than I thought. But I need to know, if I can work that out, because
I might need to drill additional holes in the hull and glue in/on some mounts then ...


But I am working on it and I will post pictures as soon as I can  :-)


Cheers
Andreas
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: dodes on April 14, 2021, 08:35:28 pm
I do not know if it is any help but the National Naval Museum in Portsmouth Naval Base is having a Dreadnought exhibition at the moment with a large museum quality model on display plus other things about her.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 15, 2021, 10:32:08 am
That would be great news ... if I had the chance to visit the UK these days  :((


Do you know, how long this exhibition will last?
I visited the museumīs homepage, but could find any information there.


Does anybody have some pictures of that museum quality model?


Cheers
Andreas
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: dodes on April 15, 2021, 10:42:23 am
Did you find an email address on their website, have found them helpful in the past.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: dodes on April 15, 2021, 10:52:37 am
Just been trying to get back to that site I mentioned and came across some original black and white movie clips advertised on U Tube if that helps, but if I find the museums email address will pass it on.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 15, 2021, 11:20:48 am
There is a contact form for enquiries on there website.
I will give it a try and ask for pictures of that model.
Thanks for that hint.


I also checked youtube (again  ok2 ) but the only footage of the HMS Dreadnought I could find, was interesting, but not helpful for my issues  {:-{


Cheers Andreas
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Liverbudgie2 on April 15, 2021, 11:22:26 am
You can obtain a copy of the rigging plan from the NMM at Greenwich (as well as a full set of drawings). Nowadays, they come as a PDF file so that you can print off the whole drawing, in full colour and at any any scale, or just the bit you want.


Makes excellant decoration for your man room should you have such a thing.


LB
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on April 15, 2021, 11:25:51 am
This is probably the one but this was from a 2006/7 exhibition. Probably the same model though? https://www.nmrn-portsmouth.org.uk/dreadnoughts
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 15, 2021, 11:31:21 am
I found a build report of the Dreadnought which helped me a lot to work out ho to deal with many details.


In this report the author mentions some structures on the boat deck and calls them "signal flag lockers" (see attachement, no thatīs not my Dreadnought, I am not that far yet)
Are those structures really the storage facilities for the signal flags?
If that is true, than it does make more sense to mount the halyards next to them, than on the other side of the foremast ... even if I donīt like how that looks  :o


Cheers
Andreas
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on April 15, 2021, 11:33:18 am
You have probably seen this already but it's fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mn4849-2oI
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: dodes on April 16, 2021, 08:31:06 pm
Found out why the museum in Portsmouth is non contactable, they are moving house, I sent a email about the where abouts of the famous Chesapeake figurehead at the moment in UK, they just replied with a curtsey email "sorry we are moving our artefacts to another location and all enquiry offices are closed". 
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: tonyH on April 17, 2021, 10:56:49 am
Yup, those are the flag lockers. If you have a look at the youtube thingy I posted, it's easy to spot them.
RN type and USN types below. RN type are easier to model  as well!
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 19, 2021, 10:51:45 pm
Yes, I found this 3D video on youtube.
Itīs nice, but as far as I can tell, it holds the same information as the Kagero 3D book, so I have this information at hand.


Thank you for the confirmation regarding that signaling flag lockers.
To me it seems, that this is then the final answer to my inital question.


Anyhow, if I (as captain  :} ) would be allowed to decide where to run that signaling halyards, it simply does not make sense to end them anywhere else except on that boat deck,
as long as I would not also command that lockers to be re-located. And I cannot see any useful space on the other deck (in front of the foremast), where to put them.


So, even if I donīt like the look, I will have to mount those halyards the same way as Kagero shows it ... otherwise I could not explain why the signaling flags are stored that far away  :((




After all this discussions and recommendations, I also sent an email to the Museum at Greenwich and got a first reply.
Here is the list, of plans they offer for the Dreadnought:

EDIT: See next post.
 
Unfortunately, I still donīt know, what such a plan does cost (as digital copy in PDF format), but I raised that question ...


Cheers
Andreas

EDIT: Posting that table did work in the editor, but not in the final message post, so I will post it as picture.
Title: Re: Rigging references for HMS Dreadnought
Post by: Carlsson on April 19, 2021, 10:55:18 pm
Here ist the list of plans mentioned above: