Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: ivorthediver on July 02, 2021, 05:54:37 pm
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Hi Lads , I am at a point where I need to be thinking about my next / last build and since completing the CAP Suzan Brittany lobster boat which I installed an auxiliary motor in , I think it will be a sailing boat again with an auxiliary motor in and I would like to know your thoughts on choice of subject .
I have been looking at Sariks plan and GRP hull of a " Grand Banks SCHOONER" , and have ordered the plans to see what this company's like and how detailed the plans are going to be , she is 47in long [ hull length is 33in ] and 3 ft high
I enjoy scratch building and although this will be my second sailing model, I have built a total of severn other models along the same lines but all these were powered war canoes O0
I would be very grateful for any advice you could offer please [either for or against ] .
I have noticed a lot of you tube videos on Bluenose Schooners which I enjoyed watching , so what do you think .............. %)
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Hello Ivor
Mobile Marine Models also make a hull the same ish, but a lot cheaper. I have have had one for years it sails very well indeed, it is not as fine underwater as the Sarik one. Side by side the Sarik is a little bit quicker at going into the wind, we have two of each in my club and we get tangled together quite a bit. Build it strong!
MF...
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I have modified the Grand Banks schooner model Mary J Ward, by Victor Models. I am not sure if Victor Models are still trading , but they no longer make the Mary J Ward, however the same ABS molded hull is used for the Ruby B cutters (single mast) model.
This type of model can sail beautifully, they are not fast (they are a working boat after all) but the cut a wonderful wide wake. They look great on the water.
My Avatar is a picture of the modified model.
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Thank you both for your helpful input lads , very grateful and I will look further into your comments and If I proceed I will hopefully be considered good enough to show it on our /forum .......
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Hello Ivor
Mobile Marine Models also make a hull the same ish, but a lot cheaper. I have have had one for years it sails very well indeed, it is not as fine underwater as the Sarik one. Side by side the Sarik is a little bit quicker at going into the wind, we have two of each in my club and we get tangled together quite a bit. Build it strong!
MF...
Hi Mike , thanks for the heads up on the Schooner , very interesting and I will contact Brian and see how much it would cost and what that includes in the way of details on build ......and consider it alongside others in the melting pot at present .
I am trying to make room in my workshop to accommodate the space but at present I may have to reduce the dock yard berth's if you get my meaning , but will keep you posted .
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I have modified the Grand Banks schooner model Mary J Ward, by Victor Models. I am not sure if Victor Models are still trading , but they no longer make the Mary J Ward, however the same ABS molded hull is used for the Ruby B cutters (single mast) model.
This type of model can sail beautifully, they are not fast (they are a working boat after all) but the cut a wonderful wide wake. They look great on the water.
My Avatar is a picture of the modified model.
thanks Tiger , I have severe aversions to Vac forms of any type as they have all ended up a waste of money IMO.
Your vessel looks stunning and I can only hope to come close to reflecting your care and skills taken over her build . :-)
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Good afternoon John and thank you for the PM which was of great interest and gave me much to try to emulate .
Your mode and design are beyond my personal abilities I fear and the scale a tad large for me to both build and transport wise as you kindly pointed out , however if I had more room and skill set I would have been very tempted to have a go at emulating your brilliant format , however you have given me much to think on and many ideas to incorporate in my final choice of hull but it will almost certainly be Fibreglass
As it stands at present if I can mange to clear enough room [ and charm the wife ] I will be looking at a scale around 1/20 [ not much difference from the last build ] but as I said nothing is set in stone as both finance and health issues have a baring on the final decision :((
I never thought in all the years of model making that a sailboat would have given so much enjoyment even though the last was a resurrection of a part built model that another had given up on [ due in part to the manner in which he had tried to cut corners and save money on cheap fixes ]
Anyway enough for the moment and I will attempt to build the Schooner in the best traditions and health permitting complete it to an acceptable standard .
Kind regards from one silver surfer to another and again my thanks for showing interest in the question .
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Forgive my ignorance lads but how do you control your Schooners sails please
In CAP SUZAN I used an arm on my servo which controlled all the sails [3 plus Gaff ] perfectly with a sail arm set up ......but with an additional mast how do you control the extra boom please .....as I would prefer to use the same set up but not sure how it would be done successfully
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Hi Mike , thanks for the heads up on the Schooner , very interesting and I will contact Brian and see how much it would cost and what that includes in the way of details on build ......and consider it alongside others in the melting pot at present .
I am trying to make room in my workshop to accommodate the space but at present I may have to reduce the dock yard berth's if you get my meaning , but will keep you posted .
High Mike are they still trading as I tried to order but no success unless their system has a glitch :((
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Forgive my ignorance lads but how do you control your Schooners sails please
I did mine using a double sided sail arm, as shown in the picture. One servo for all sails
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Thank you Tiger for your swift response to my question , which I will try to implement .
I had tried to order the hull from MMM but kept getting problems with payment even though I know the money was in my account , so ended up buying the Sariks hull as I had already bought the plans and it would save me the grief of trying to make one fit the others hull so I look forward to receiving the hull in about a week or so all being well .
I intend fitting an auxiliary motor in her to ensure she returns to me at the lakeside God willing .
I have ordered the doweling and eye fittings , and have ample sail and rigging in house to make a spirited attempt at her build, so all being well I will start making up the rudder / prop shaft fittings and digging out the spare motor and and lipo's that she will end up with and the RX and wiring / esc and oddments should soon take form
I hope to have the masts demountable along with the standing / running rigging with sails attached to the respective masts/ booms but this should evolve as time progresses
I tend to make my models without thinking of taking pictures so forgive me if I omit important facts / photo's ......
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Hi all, just picked up on this thread. I have a 33 inch hull of the Grand Banks schooner and it has been work in progress for some time now. Deck has been planked and masts made and sail servo fitted just got hung up on some sail issues and a bowsprit I am not happy with.
This an old plan from the late LR Armstrong and he did 2 other simple working boats, Pearling Lugger and a Thames Barge yacht, which is a Thames barge cut in half to make 2 yachts! His method was to make them bread and butter fashion using old floor boards, which are about 7/8ths inches thick.
Can I very strongly recommend you get hold of a copy of the old Spencer Tracy film Captains Courageous from 1937. I say get your own as I have watched my copy at least 30 times! Watching the film will save a lot of research. It is less than £10 on-line.
It is a great film and has so many Grand Banks schooners in it, together with how they fished from the dorys and all the detail you would like to see. It is an excellent film and was nominated for an Oscar. Best Actor.
There is a modern re-make by Disney which is crap, don't go there!
Regards
Roy
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Thanks for looking in Roy and for the tip which I will endeavour to obtain .
At this stage just accumulating stores but the hull won't be here for a month so it shouldn't be an issue as long as the account can stand it O0
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Well the hull for the Schooner arrived and I have been busy checking stock and marking out the hull for the model I wish to build .
Today and yesterday has been nose to the grindstone days with marking out the hull cutting holes in the hull and deciding what's going where ...
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Can I very strongly recommend you get hold of a copy of the old Spencer Tracy film Captains Courageous from 1937. I say get your own as I have watched my copy at least 30 times! Watching the film will save a lot of research. It is less than £10 on-line.
It is a great film and has so many Grand Banks schooners in it, together with how they fished from the dorys and all the detail you would like to see. It is an excellent film and was nominated for an Oscar. Best Actor.
Thanks for the heads up. Downloaded and watched.
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Hi TT I decided to buy the DVD on-line and watched it yesterday. Really good film especially for its' time, the story was written by Rudyard Kipling . All those schooners!!! Marvellous shots of them in heavy weather and they did not mind wrecking the schooner. The start was longer than I remember but none the less part of the film.
Many modellers forget the fishing dorys stacked up but without them they are not fishing boats. They did a good job of fishing as the current stocks of cod etc on the Grand Banks is just 2 % of what it was according to Canadian sources.
I think the most telling part was the service at the end for the fisherman who died and that was just for the 3 months that the fishing fleet had been out there.
Regards
Roy
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Hello Ivor has your hull had a previous life in someones garage? I would get shot of the prop rather out of place this boat will sail on a puff of wind. The rudder stock looks a bit iffy, hope you are going to start again?
My yacht has the same masts and they are quite high and this boat is easier to transport fully rigged. To this end I discarded my first set of masts and made new ones with the upper mast able to slide down, you have 2 rings/holes etc for this. The rigging stays the same and the top masts can be held in place with sliding brass wire locking pins.
The boat then goes much easier in the car boot.
The DVD I suggested gives you lots of detail where there are chains etc and I have the authentic up and down deck-winch drive mechanism as shown in part of the film. It was amongst my collection of old brass Billing fittings and I had wondered what it was until I saw the film.
regards
Roy
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No ... it was purchased new Roy and is also based on Armstrong design which Sarvik sub contract out locally [the hull that is ] and the plans are on two sheets but very lean on detail and no I am not trying to copy your vessel , but thats the joy of modelling surely, and the prop will be staying .
I also bought the DVD and thanks for the recommendations as you were right about the detail that can be gleaned from it
In case there is any future confusion , I am posting this build for my own enjoyment , not to prove what a brilliant modeller I am ......I will leave that to others who feel they have something to prove to others ..........mine .....is more likely to illustrate the points I have yet to learn and steer others from ....if this offends your sensibilities .....well there are plenty of other threads to follow who portray perfection ......sadly not this one O0
The sliding top mast suggestion is a good idea and I will look at that when nearer the build progress but at this early stage I had planned on having removable masts [as the plans suggest ] along with the fitted rigging and sails all as outlined on the plans and clipped onto the reinforced bulwarks .
but that is away off at present .
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OOps sorry Ivor put my foot in it. We all build for our own satisfaction so your choices will be respected.
TT gave a nice illustration of sail control, I have an old double arm winch in my version, does save a lot of tangles.If you need any suggestions for making items let us know. By the way I think there are some curtain rings available from haberdashers. These are rolled 'brass' and very light. Size should be the diameter of the mast plus 25%.
The model like the full size is a very wet boat so make sure hatch coamings are high enough.
Good luck
Roy
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Indeed Roy ...no offence taken........ but thought I should set out my stall and save future discourse .
On my first sailboat which I had the planked hull was built [ badly with no provision for waterboards at all and painted without any decking but the bulwarks went straight up to the rail so I had to learn all about water integrity very quickly and study the correct way to do it [ and made a few mistakes en route ] but the CAP kit which he originally bought must have been great , but all I received was a hull no masts no sails or anything else other than the plans which were in French so to put it mildly ....."..I was the guy in the canoe without the paddle up a very smelly creek " O0
So crash course on rigging , hardware , sails, laying decks and waterproofing a hull internally along with all the other myriad of fixtures and fittings needed to get her on the water helped by very kind hearted club members who helped me .
I made , run and serviced the club tug which recovered all of their sailboats at some point or other so in away it was pay back time ......if you cant beat them join them O0
Thank you for your offer which I may take you up on .......lets face it know one knows it all.........unless of course its you in which case I'm sorry ;)
Been a model freak for many years and started on planes but kept taking more home than I took .....raised a family [ a few times and got the bills , receipts to prove it ] and restarted but with boats 12 years ago but these were all scratch built war canoes in " Deans hulls " and he along with dear departed Dave were my mentors .....and now this my eighth boat [ and my last due to health issues]
I enclose pic of my first sailboat described above [in case your the one I haven't shown it to yet] and she sails like a dream, albeit slowly ,but my sailing skills are weak and I vowed that any boat I built WILL have a motor in her to ensure she gets back to the shoreline safely ......and she does bless her
Sorry forgot I was on this Forum where pictures are a rarity
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Roy have a look at CAP Suzan lobster boat elsewhere on this Forum ....
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Hi there Tiger , proceeding well with the model but wondered what kind of keel weight you use on your excellent model please ?
I made my own for the previous model , but wondered how you went about it and roughly where you positioned it .
I bought the hull and plan but no reference is made re ballast other than a 1" square box section of steel tube fitted inside the hull about 300mm in length which I have done but with all that sail and upper Gaffs it seemed to cry out for additional ballast .
My last one was made out of 1mm brass sheet , about 300mm long by 80mm wide and with lead section bolted to the bottom and positioned just aft of the main mast , and it seems to work very well in deed , so would be grateful of your input please .
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Hi you are quite right, my mate had one and we were talking about performance and he said it needs more ballast and for my one I increased it and also built up the bulwarks as well. The other option is to cut back on the sail area.
But if you remember your physics the weight of the bar acts at it's centre. I would cut back on the sail area myself and leave the balancing of the boat in the water alone.
regards
Roy
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Mine has a drop keel I cannot remember the weight, it was achieved with a hollow moulded bulb, which was filled with lead shot and resin.
The drop keel is about 3 inches wide, and is roughly amid ships. Placement was already set by the slot in the moulded hull.
However, I don't think the exact placement is critical as I increased my sail plan, in a way that affects the center of effort of the sails. This sail plan also changes based on the wind forces. I can drop the flying jib and the topsails, however handling is not compromised.
At the end of the day there is a lot of theory about center of effort calculations etc. that would be useful and relevant for finely balanced racing hulls (IOM etc). However, this is IMHO unnecessary with a model working boat. The hull lines of a Grand Banks schooner are very stable with a wide beam. The original boats would have had a wide variety of load balance as the boat slowly filled with its catch.
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Attached are the arrangements for the keel fin on the Mary J Ward model
The photos are borrowed from Romain Peck's build.
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I don't know if the Sarik plans are for a static or working model. If for a static model you will need to increase the rudder area for the working model.
The rudder for the Mary J Ward model is huge, but performs well.
Sorry about the poor image
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Thank you both very much for your valuable advice Gents .
The Sarik plans specified a 300mm x25mm sq steel box section which I have already fitted , sadly had I seen your comment TT I would have gone for that idea instead .
As far as the rudder goes TT I could not agree more , as I learnt from my first sailing model the Gaff rigged cutter " Size does matter " O0
I have also extended the bulwarks up to 20mm from the deck surface as the moulding showed scant height which would have worried me a lot . :((
I have built the sail servo the same as you recommended and it is currently being temporarily installed as we speak as I juggle the electrics around inside this "Greyhound" of a hull
Thank you again for taking the time and trouble to respond to my question and for the detail you supplied which is very useful indeed and has helped me a lot
Kind regards Ivor .
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Well things are proceeding well and last week I completed the temporary installation of all the electrical gear , motor , Esc , servo's cable runs , control surfaces , battery containment , and once satisfied that it would work and more to the point "fit" I striped it all back out after running it and checking everything was serviceable gave the inner face a coat of resin to seal it up and beef it up
including the waterboards and underside of the decking sheets fitted thus far
Not sure if I had a "duff budgie" hull , but the freeboard was so small relative to the finished deck level that I decided to fit an extension to the bulwarks by about 20mm by lining the inner rough face of the bulwarks with 2mm ply and fairing the outer face where it stepped with a little body filler which was completed today ready for sanding tomorrow .
I then completed the base structure along the lines of how I was advised to ,[ strong , and waterproof ] and once the skeletal was made I coated everything with resin above and below prior to laying the deck.
The decking will be planked on top of the 2mm ply with 2mm maple strip wood which in turn will be varnished [ 2 coats] and once thats done I will look at constructing the mast and rigging .[having already layed all the sail control pipes / cord runs
The decking will probably make a few purists cringe as she has bigger and broader cabins born, out of necessity, to ensure the model would not only work but be serviceable once afloat should the need for rework/ alterations arise ,
So far so good , and just thankful that I had the knowledge of the first build to draw upon :-))
I'll keep you posted on progress as and when ......thanks for looking in . ok2
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I don't know if the Sarik plans are for a static or working model. If for a static model you will need to increase the rudder area for the working model.
The rudder for the Mary J Ward model is huge, but performs well.
Sorry about the poor image
High Tiger , cant help but notice the that the hull shown here is very different from the "Armstrong " hull I have in that the keel is much shorter and slimmer than mine[ see post 10 July ] O0
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Hi I agree with TT it is a different hull.
regards
Roy
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High Tiger , cant help but notice the that the hull shown here is very different from the "Armstrong " hull I have in that the keel is much shorter and slimmer than mine[ see post 10 July ] O0
Some model boat designs stretch out (vertically) the hull lines, below the water line. This is deliberate which allows the ballast to be much lower in the water. This is done to make the boat more stable and to eliminate the need for a drop keel (keel fin and bulb).
The lines of the hull for the Mary J Ward are possibly closer to the original lines of the boats she was modelled on. The hull lines may be closer to scale, but the keel fin and bulb are not.
Your hull shown in you post of 10 July has a keel that is deeper in the water, and is probably a vertical exaggeration of the lines of the original boat, BUT you will not need a drop keel.
Elongating the lines vertically is a compromise, and models like this are less stable than those with a fin keel, but unless you are close hauled in strong winds the model will be stable enough.
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Hi TT, I have noticed that with some plans. If you look at a MM plan for Caribee it looks short and tubby. But many years ago I checked with the owner and the lengthwise lines of the plans need to be increased by 20% to get the right hull shape. Then she looks really nice.
regards
Roy
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Well you live and learn each Day do you not :o
So all that trouble I put into the positioning of the steel tube and the S/S bolts down through the keel were all for nothing {:-{ such is life eh ......but thanks for enlightening me ..........
I think an unscheduled water test would be prudent once the hull is primed and before I set about fitting out the hull /mast / rigging dont you .
Never mind if as you suspect she will no longer need a ballast keel and bulb that will save me having to make one up and the materials bought can be put to use elsewhere O0
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Hello,
Have a look at my Website !!!. www.John-Dowd.co.uk
John.
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I already have on another website Jaydee . and learnt much from it John , whilst I will never be in your league I will enjoy the project very much .
Since this mornings response I have spent the day titivating the hull and having now seen JAYDEES thread again I note that he also had a lower keel fitted to his " foam beauty" :-)) O0
Progress to date