Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: frogman3 on July 10, 2021, 04:22:25 pm
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HELP PLEASE could any body advise me with a problem im havin on my tiger as i just wired it up all 4 motors an 2 x 40 amp viper ESC 's fitted with 30amp fuses an ive taken out the red wire on one ESC an one ESC DRIVES the back two motors ok an the other ESC should drive the front motors i treid it as this is a BECC system AN when i switched on every thing looked ok as all the lights an the one in the R/X came on but when i treid to open the throttle to get all four motors running they came on for a few seconds an ran an then they started to cut out an then all four stopped completely so it makes me wonder if this is a power shortage an WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I REJIONED THE RED WIRE ON THE OTHER ESC ? SO CAN ANYONE HELP
Chris
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Do Not reconnect the other red wire.
Stan
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WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I REJIONED THE RED WIRE ON THE OTHER ESC ? SO CAN ANYONE HELP
Chris
If you connect both red wires, the little power regulators in each ESC will fight each other trying to set their output voltage - within a fraction of a second, all the smoke-fairies will escape.
It's not totally clear from your post - do you have a separate power supply to the receiver too? Try unplugging all the other systems from the receiver apart from the two ESCs for the motors and try again.
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If you connect both red wires, the little power regulators in each ESC will fight each other trying to set their output voltage - within a fraction of a second, all the smoke-fairies will escape.
It's not totally clear from your post - do you have a separate power supply to the receiver too? Try unplugging all the other systems from the receiver apart from the two ESCs for the motors and try again.
HI Plastic thats just what the set up is main batt 12amphr SLA an the the main live wire in to a fuse box with a 30 amp fuses x2 one for each 40 AMP VIPER ESC 's an the R/X takes its power through one lead from one ESC an the other ESC is into a Y lead to the R/X an the red wire has been removed best i can exsplain it
CHRIS
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Well to state common practice, the recommended is to fuse each motor at just under stall current when running more than one motor off each esc. So one might look for 4 fuses in this respect. Plus many of us forget that main fuse off the battery itself.
For the problem with the esc's follow the simple fault finding plan...
Unplug one esc, does it work off the radio or with a servo tester?
Unplug that esc, try the same with the other and see if it works
How many esc's, servos etc are you running off the radio? (Carson if I recall?). If too many things the bec from one esc may not be enough. If it were me I'd be prepared to check things out with a 4xAA ni-mh pack connected to the receiver, but obviously then no red wire from any esc may be connected at the same time.
I'd go KISS, strip all the connections and try each one in turn individually then start combining and take note at which point things stop working.
Rich
PS, I'm finding with all my Viper esc's if I try and move the sticks before they've done their self learning thing then they all play up afterwards. They can take a few seconds after switch-on to work.
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HI RST well ive done what you said about running just one ESC an on the two rear motors an they run fine forwards an back an to test the second ESC i'll have to reconect the red wire an try it but i will disconnect the other ESC so no problems blowin up anything an yes ive waited till the ESC sets it self up an no different
chris
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Hi Chris, just remember for that set up you should really in best practice have at least 4 fuses, one per motor as you are commoning up. I know you spent allot of time on this model so skimping may hurt for a couple of quids worth of parts.
...Other thing. I hate just about every propshaft out there these days they thread them more than the prop tube allows for. No chance of a set of shafts binding is there? Easy to be caught out that way!
Rich
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All good advice, but check the voltage of your sla on load, i.e trying to run the motors. It should be reading 13 volts plus. 12 volts or less and that will be your main suspect.
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.Othe[/size]r thing. I hate just about every propshaft out there these days they thread them more than the prop tube allows for. No chance of a set of shafts binding is there? Easy to be caught out that way!
rich quote
HI RICH NO NO PROBLEM WITH THE SHAFTS AS THEY ALL TURN EASY BY HAND SO THEY ARE NOT LOCKIN UP
CHRIS[/font]
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SLA batteries have never been good at providing continuous heavy current. A few seconds, like starting a car, OK. A few minutes, no.
As described, the problem sounds like the SLA not being able to maintain its voltage (OK, its a 12AH, but I didn't notice the voltage), either because it isn't fully charged or its not holding its charge or it just can't supply heavy current for more than a few seconds anyway. Or the load is more than expected.
Unless a lot of ballast is needed, NiMH packs of the same capacity are much lighter and far better behaved. In the old days, SLA were the only game in town, and were tolerated. Nowadays there are much better alternatives.
The ESCs have a built-in BEC to provide a regulated voltage to their own internal circuits and, via the red wire, to the radio and whatever is plugged into it. As has been said, it is bad practice to connect more than one supply together, so only one BEC in circuit at any one time. For testing by swapping ESCs about, it is better to use a separate battery for the radio and have both red wires disconnected.
Using a servo tester is also highly recommended. They don't just test servos. They can test anything that would look like a servo to the radio.
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Thanks Malcolm, I did indeed misread a/h for voltage, but the same check applies. If it's a 6 volt sla, then it should be reading at least 6.5 volts on load. The smaller reserve of voltage would make the sla even more of a suspect, as many escs cut out around 5.5 volts.
I'd bet that undervolt sla batteries account for a massive proportion of problems in models.
Of course, I could be wrong to suspect the battery, but a 30 second check would find out.
Charles
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HI ALL well i'll put that right its a 12v 12amp hr SLA BATTERY an ive used these for yrs an had plenty of running time with my nimitz carrier an that had 4 grupner 600 motors in it an never had any probs but this is my first time with this BECC SYSTEM i must admit im not impressed i think the 40meg was far better an easyier to wire up as thats what i had again in my nimitz but thank you guys for your replys an ive a freind comin over tomorrow to have a look so see what happens from there
all the best all chris
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Hi Chris this picture shows four motors fitted in my Missouri model. You will note I have not fitted fuses to every motor albeit the motors have a low stall current. The fuses will be rated at at the stall current of two motors the BECC system works fine. I suspect your battery may be the problem on test the Missouri was powered using a gel cell battery with no problems at all. Can you supply pictures of your installation? I take it your vipers are showing the normal green red lights. Should they show a solid red light this would indicate a signal failure.
Stan.
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HI STAN yes i will show some linkpicks but have got to load them up to imgbb first but i have typed out my wirein system an here it is
but i'll try an exsplain my wirein layout i have a main batt 12v 12 amp hr positive off it to a fuses box x 2 fuses so the postive wire is soldered together the to go through two 30 amp fuse as the ESC are 40 amp an both positve wires come out from the fuses box an each postive connects to the positive on both the VIPER ESC an then the yellow or blue wires go to the motor terminals an the back to the ESC an then the black negitve wire goes back to the neg on the battery an ive fitted the R/C FLY LEADS both into a Y lead an takin one red wire out an the fly lead then goes to THE 2 POSTION on the R/X as i dont like twin stick as i have not got good hand to hand coodernaition so all four motors work from one stick hope you understand what ive said as i have disconneted the fly that has the red wire removed an the remaing ESC AN THE MOTORS RUN OK it only when i reconnect the other ESC FOR THE BACK MOTORS THAT THE PROBLEMS START LIKE YOU WAS SAYIN MOTORS RUN FOR A FEW SECOND S THEN OFF AN ON THEN NOTHING
ALL BEST CHRIS BUT TOMORROW I'LL CHECK EACH ESC THEN GO FROM THERE
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HI AGAIN Stan here is a linkpics an here ive only wired up one esc an it all goin through a relay forgot to mention that as when i had trouble i removed the relay an had a direct feed to the FUSE BOX then from them to the ESC AN FROM THE ESC to the MOTORS an then BACK VIA THE YELLOW OR BLUE TO ESC then through blacks neg back to the batt an the fly leads off the ESC GO TO A y lead an one flylead has the red wire removed an the other lead to the R/X
CHRIS
https://ibb.co/t3JzV4F
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AN HERE BOTH ESC all fitted but relay is shown here but i did remove it when i had the problems
https://ibb.co/nf4mWwT
or have i fitted it all too close to the motors ?
chris
(https://i.ibb.co/NpfC4FX/IMG-6382.jpg)
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an yes i just fitted in 3 amp fuses just to test as i thought they would blow rather than have any thing like ESC DAMAGED but they blew staight away as i knew they would but this was just a test but after that i fitted in 30 amp fuses
chris
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HI Chris looking at those motors they may draw lots of power. Do you know what motors they are ? If you use my picture of the Missouri your installation should be the same. The motor cables seem to be red and black I always wire them using yellow and blue. If possible can you tidy up the wiring it is very difficult the see how this all works. Looking at those motors I suspect the will have very high stall current which could be more than the rated value of the ESC. Just one more question are you getting the red and green light on the ESC when you turn on the small black switches?
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HI Chris looking at those motors they may draw lots of power. Do you know what motors they are ? If you use my picture of the Missouri your installation should be the same. The motor cables seem to be red and black I always wire them using yellow and blue. If possible can you tidy up the wiring it is very difficult the see how this all works. Looking at those motors I suspect the will have very high stall current which could be more than the rated value of the ESC
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HI STAN no i dont know the name of the motors as i first had some smaller johnsons motors fitted but the drive shaftwas too short only 1/4 of an inch an the universal jionts kept comin off as they are held on by allen grub screws so i removed them an went to a model shop an asked for some motors that had a longer drive shafts but there is no name on them so it looks like ive wasted a load of money again ? an yes the black an red that you see on the motors come from the yellow an blue as they were not long enough so i solered on some extenshion leads
chris
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HI Chris What you need is some one with a multi meter who can check the stall current of those motors. I think it could be a motor stroke battery problem. If you lived near me I would gladly take a look for you.
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HI Chris What you need is some one with a multi meter who can check the stall current of those motors. I think it could be a motor stroke battery problem. If you lived near me I would gladly take a look for you.
WELL Stan many thanks for your offer as you say pity i was not far off you but i have a freind comin tomorrow to have a look an see if he can sort it but yes i do now see what you mean about the motors may be too big for the ESC BUT YET THE ESC with the red wire in its flylead from the R/X runs the two rear motors ok as this is what i cant under stand as the ESC ARE 40 AMP ONES
BUT CHEERS FOR YOUR HELP
Chris
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Hi Chris, the motors 64370 are Johnson’s motors with high torque capability, output could exceed 40 to 50 amps.
Stall current 80A at 12v, nominal voltage 6v. 11:500 rpm,12v. 23:000 rpm
Dia, 36mm x 65mm, shaft 11.5mm dia 3.175
Hope this helps.
John
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HI John thanks for info an it looks like i have bought to big an heavy on current an power motors then so it looks like i'll have two scrap them then an refit more new motors but what motors would you recommend ?
please as im at a loss
chris :D >:-o >>:-( <*< <:(
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It all depends on the size and type & weight of the boat, size of the propellers etc, I would really alter the wiring
What is the relay used for?what radio set are you using how many channels?
John
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It all depends on the size and type & weight of the boat, size of the propellers etc, I would really alter the wiring
What is the relay used for?what radio set are you using how many channels?
John
WELL John if you look in battleship section on here an go down an you will see boatmans tiger build thread an u can get the size but tiger is nr 8feet long so a big model an props are about 35 mm 5 bladed an im usein a carsons R/C 14 CHANNEL
CHRIS
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If they are the motors I am thinking of plenty of revs at 6 volts and a reasonable current, but on 12 volt I call them ESC killers.
Bob
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Hi Chris, the motors on the Tiger build look like Johnson 540,s have you asked boatman for advice on the
motor esc controls etc.
John
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If they are the motors I am thinking of plenty of revs at 6 volts and a reasonable current, but on 12 volt I call them ESC killers.
Bob
HI BOB AN YOU would be right as them motors were heavy currunt an i took them back to the shop where i bought them an asked for a refund an got it so im now back to my first johnsons motors an my freind came over an helped to
get a solution on them an it seems to have worked so it back to fittin all four motors back in an then rewirein them cheers an to all you guys for your help
chris
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Just for curiosity Chris, what size were your first Johnson motors you have re fitted?
John
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Just for curiosity Chris, what size were your first Johnson motors you have re fitted?
John
https://ibb.co/vxVZBhz
HI John here is a pic of the first johnson motor an you can see its a lot smaller that that heavy currant ones i took back sorry pic its upsidedown
chris
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HI Chris is there any other marking on the motor case trying to find more info on this motor.
Stan.
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HI Chris is there any other marking on the motor case trying to find more info on this motor.
Stan.
HI STAN IM SENDING YOU A PM
CHRIS
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Hi Chris, the motors on the Tiger build look like Johnson 540,s have you asked boatman for advice on the
motor esc controls etc.
John
HI John boatman is me FROGMAN 3 is a name i came up with as was on mayhem about 10 yrs ago an i left as movein house an when i came back online i treid to rejion as BOATMAN but the site says there already is a BOATMAN so i had to come on as frogman 3 hope that clears that up
chris
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HI Chris looking at those motors they may draw lots of power. Do you know what motors they are ? If you use my picture of the Missouri your installation should be the same. The motor cables seem to be red and black I always wire them using yellow and blue. If possible can you tidy up the wiring it is very difficult the see how this all works. Looking at those motors I suspect the will have very high stall current which could be more than the rated value of the ESC. Just one more question are you getting the red and green light on the ESC when you turn on the small black switches?
HI STAN yes im getting the red an green lights come on ok on both ESC's an when i run the motors the lights go out is this correct ? an do you think ive fitted the ESC 's to close to the motors ? an if yes how far away should i refit the ESC's ? AN
i have not fitted any suppresers on my motors will they help ?
AS i have not wired up motors for yrs an ive forgotten a lot of what not to
do 's an if you say yes to any of my questions then i will take it all to bits an rewire it like your [/size]Missouri model. or as nr as possible as the reason i have fitted this all togeather closely as in model boats mag they say keep the wirein as short as possible so i have an plus im a bit pressed for space as i wanted to fit other things in an maybe another batt for ballast if you see what i mean
chris
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an ive taken the relay out in case that was causeing problems >>:-( <*< >:-o so i sharnt do any more untill i hear your answers ? an Stan a linkpic to SHOW how its NOW back to what it was in the first place BAR THE RELAY so are they all to close ?
https://ibb.co/264zgTc (https://ibb.co/264zgTc) AN Stan i think i will cut off the white plastic plugs as lookin at your pics i see that you have cut yours off an ive had trouble with them before as they welded themselves togeather an i could not part them in my big nimitz carrier
chris cheers :-))
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Hi Chris,
Have you sorted your ESC/Motor issue out yet ? {:-{ {:-{
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HI Frogman I will reply later with my findings from m/ tronicks they suspect the problem may be one battery cannot supply the demands of the four motors. I have tried to find information on the johnson motors you intend to fit with no joy. In terms of the B E C stopping and restarting this could be due to a voltage drop hence the B EC stops working.
Stan
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Hi Chris,
Have you sorted your ESC/Motor issue out yet ? {:-{ {:-{
HI Dave in a word NO an i tried it today again an still its was cutting out an if they are like that running freely what will they be like under load in the water
so i thought right its all comin out so now it is out an while ive got it all out i thought i regrease the prop shafts so im doin all 4 tomorrow an when ive done that then im movein them bloomin viper ESC BACK in the hull away from the motors an ive also been to the model shop today an bought some capister to fit to the motors to stop any interfearance an this will take all week >>:-( <*<
but then if i still get trouble then i'll buy some different ESC 's an try that
but one thing i know its getting exspensive hope you are well dave
chris
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HI Frogman I will reply later with my findings from m/ tronicks they suspect the problem may be one battery cannot supply the demands of the four motors. I have tried to find information on the johnson motors you intend to fit with no joy. In terms of the B E C stopping and restarting this could be due to a voltage drop hence the B EC stops working.
Stan
OK Stan many thanks for tryin an as for one battery cannot supply 4 motors
well one batt worked ok on my four motors in my nimitz with power to spare an i had sailing times of half an hr or more be quite honest i think this BECC idea is not as good as the good ole 40 meg as i never had this trouble on that
freqency but as i said to dave in my last post i'll give it one more try with these vipers ESC an if no good then i'll buy some different ESC 's an try them an ive been lookin at your layout in missriue an im goin to try your idea out of space thing out
ALL BEST Stan
chris
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Hi Chris, how old is the battery you are using, have you checked the voltage drop across the battery with a
multimeter when you power up your 4 motors. BEC, battery elimination circuit takes power from a esc to the rx
When you switch on it does not matter what frequency you use.
John
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HI Chris which ever E S C you buy they are all nowadays fitted with the B E C system. Maybe you should try and fit a separate battery to power your receiver. I understand you can run one motor without any trouble by everything stops with two I still think you have a battery /motor problem.
Stan.
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OK Stan but i'll give it one more try but in my R/C book intructions it says i must not ues a seperate batt to power the R/X an you stan are running the same setup up as me you have four motors through two vipers from what i see on of your pics but cheers for your help ps personably i think these vipers are not up to the job but just my opinion
chris
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... I have tried to find information on the johnson motors you intend to fit with no joy.
Stan, they are used by MFA Como as the RE 540/1 in the 942D gear boxes
The shaft is 5mm rather than 12mm.
Howes webshop photo shows the numbers on the can.
Chris, they are not up to running the props direct.
Once your woes are over, a 12v test with a healthy battery and wiring would show up current draw over 8 amps and rpm falling below 7,500 rpm.
If you can get your hands on four 555 motors and check voltage right up at the input of escs and bec you are sorted.
You also misunderstand the "do not use batt to power R/X" reference so you can remove both red wires and use an Rx battery in place of the bec.
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OK Stan many thanks for tryin an as for one battery cannot supply 4 motors
well one batt worked ok on my four motors in my nimitz with power to spare an i had sailing times of half an hr or more be quite honest i think this BECC idea is not as good as the good ole 40 meg as i never had this trouble on that
freqency but as i said to dave in my last post i'll give it one more try with these vipers ESC an if no good then i'll buy some different ESC 's an try them an ive been lookin at your layout in missriue an im goin to try your idea out of space thing out
ALL BEST Stan
chris
If a 12AH SLA is giving a bit more than 30 minutes, it means that 20+ amps is being pulled. That is not good for an SLA battery. They are just not meant for that level of continuous use. They are delivering something over 20 times what they were designed for. After a few cycles like that, they stop being rechargeable batteries.
Having the right motors for the size and type of boat to give the required performance is a vital start. I didn't notice a mention in this thread, but what scale is it? Knowing the scale and model gives a starting point for working out what actual power is needed. Then you can start to ponder over what props are fitted and what motors are going to be happy turning them at the right speed without going into a semi-stall mode where they mostly just discharge the battery and heat up the hull.
BEC units do a perfect job giving a 5 volt supply from a 12 volt battery, even an overworked one as long as the common ground connection is as solid as it should be. It doesn't matter at all what kind of radio is involved, 27MHz AM, 40MHz AM or FM or 2G4. The only difference is that on any AM system, interference from the motors in the boat is likely to be a problem. Much less likely with 2G4, but you might give problems to nearby models on the AM radios.
Having ESCs near their motors is not a problem. Shorter wires is generally a good thing.
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New to this thread, but it is obvious that the big Johnson motors originally fitted were a terrible choice of motor for a scale ship, more so four of them! Given the lack of info on the currently fitted motors I would suspect them of being the problem. That and the 12v power supply. 12v is great but you need to match the motors to the voltage, and I think this is what is going wrong here, again and again. I feel your local hobby shop is giving you some pretty duff recommendations on motors. Which motors are they, specifically? Give us a link to check out their rpm etc. If they turn out to be too fast for 12v, which will trip out the speed controls as described, the easiest fix is to drop down to a pair of 7.2v NiMh batteries. Lower current, less chance of tripping out. But we are getting ahead of ourselves.. what are the motors, exactly?!
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HI The motors are Johnson marked 1061157 3m0631 hope this helps.
Stan.
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HI The motors are Johnson marked 1061157 3m0631 hope this helps.
Stan.
Not at all, but good try ok2
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For a scale setup I think we would be looking at somewhere between 4000rpm and 7000rpm motors. These ones 'could' be 12000rpm plus. Difficult to tell trying to look them up online. We don't know if they are Howes motors or MFA motors at the moment, so everything is currently guesswork till we get more info.
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OK Stan but i'll give it one more try but in my R/C book intructions it says i must not ues a seperate batt to power the R/X an you stan are running the same setup up as me you have four motors through two vipers from what i see on of your pics but cheers for your help ps personably i think these vipers are not up to the job but just my opinion
chris
Chris not sure how you are reading the manual but the first slot on the rx is for a batt pack, you disconnect BOTH red wires from the esc then you use a batt pack I agree with Stan that its not the Mtroniks, thaye are usually very good and trouble free. How I told you I wired Leviathan up is exactly how my Tiger was wired and no problems with that.
Bob
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https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/johnson-540-3-pole-motor-4-5-15-volts/ (https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/johnson-540-3-pole-motor-4-5-15-volts/) same electrical spec as RE540/1
They do the RE 540/ln (https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/mfa-540-5-pole-low-noise-6-12-volts/) , currently sold out.
The 540/ln does a bigger prop than what you have now, Chris.
555 motor suits a bigger prop.
Last night I did a reverse image search to get the above and also somehow got a hit on RS components (export shop) listing of the geared 942D motors. The painted numbers showed there too.
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OK GUYS MANY THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP an i'll see how it goes (or not )
CHRIS :-))