Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: old man on August 08, 2021, 10:07:10 am
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Following a recent poor experience with a model shop in pursuit of a Riva type launch for use when the wind doesn't blow, I am looking to build my own.
I particularly like the Riva style boats. This type of craft would fit in well with other members models, much better than a pre-built fast job. Fun and function?
I have neither the eyesight, time or inclination to build anything too complex so have found the Amati Bellezza and Riva type launches which could fit the bill as hulls and decking come assembled.
I am use FlySky radio kit but need advice on running gear etc. to enable a fairly nippy model that functions reliably?
Any or all comment thank you, even alternative kits, possible cooling issues, anything relevant please shout up.
Regards om
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Have you looked at the Dumas Chris Craft range?
https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Dumas-chris-craft.html
(there are other suppliers)
They seem to be very well regarded.
Colin
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Thanks Colin, yes I have. They don't seem to float my boat hull shape or trim wise.
om
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If you speak to Hobbies, they used to sell a complete Amati Riva pack with motors/esc/shafts etc etc which may be worth while.
They have it as out of stock at present BUT some time ago they had a slightly damaged kit for £100.00 which could still be there (They don't seem to get too many visitors!) Might be worth a call even to pick their brains as to the rest of the package? :-))
For some strange reason the set appears on the Hobbies web site if you Google Amati models but won't copy onto here {:-{
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Thanks Tony, a very useful contact.
om
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Sorry OM, see the PS,
Tony
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Got it, thanks.
om
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Hi Old man
Any good to you
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154558344164?hash=item23fc652be4:g:n6gAAOSwMDphDAVJ (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154558344164?hash=item23fc652be4:g:n6gAAOSwMDphDAVJ)
Jason
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Thanks Jason, now have a quandary?
om
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Pretty Good! 6 minutes ago! You've got great reactions for an old man!
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Mm, sometimes {-) ?
om
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Still welcoming comment about engines, cooling etc?
om
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Have a look through the boats from Zooma, Chris, Madwelshman etc.on the Pleasure, etc section for the sort of options because it really does depend on what you're trying to achieve. I.e. scalish speed, out-and-out racer etc. Weight is going to help you decide on single or 2 screws anyway. Once you know that you can plan accordingly.
:-))
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Thank you.
Current thought around scale ish speed, resulting in reliability, more run time and fun than breakdowns.
Most likely NiMh, single prop, cooled?
Should take delivery early next week.
om
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Then when you've got it in your mitts, check how much weight it can carry by sticking it in the bath and loading it down to the waterline and then you'll know how much you've got to play with. Deduct a few percent to allow for odds and sods etc. and if you allow about 500gms for a decent size battery, about 150gms each for the motor and the ESC and probably the same again for the propshaft and prop. I've assumed brushless motor with Lipo battery because they're more efficient. Nimh batteries are slightly heavier and don't deliver as much power but since it's for leisure it should'nt matter too much. Bob (Zooma), Chris, Madwelshman etc. know a lot more than me and can recommend model numbers/sources etc. for the motor etc but I reckon the weight is the starting bit because you can then sort out the balance of the boat etc. I'm early in the powerboat learning curve myself and I've learnt a lot from the others so Good Luck :-))
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Thank you again Tony.
Regards om
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Aeronaut Models:
https://aero-naut.de/product-category/schiffsmodelle/yachten/
https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut-p1.html
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Thank you martin, lots to absorb and fun to be had.
Regards. om
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The fun continues, seems like the Bellezza was designed for and outboard? Luckily for me a tip from tugboyben resulted in a good buy from ebay (thanks again) so no drama in having to bodge it a bit if needed.
Still trying to investigate propeller position etc.
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If it was designed for an outboard then the prop and the rudder will be well behind the transom so bringing them forward would b****r up the driveability etc. Why not stick with the outboard theme? Pricier probably but a lot simpler! The boat seems to come under the Krick banner so the consruction vids are out there. This one covers the mechanics etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P16lwfQDHU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P16lwfQDHU)
Just an idea {:-{
Or, of course, you could use an internal motor and concoct an outdrive or a dummy outboard setup. Tricky but certainly doable :-))
Decisions, Decisions........ %)
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Thanks Tony, I'm not considering outboard at present? as I saw a video of that set up and didn't like either the cost or perceived performance.
It seems likely so far to be a punt at an 850 brushed, 50A ESC, NiMh set up cobbled to fit. My criteria is just a quickish reliable fun model to use when no wind about. Not concerned with scale visuals if that makes sense. Quite willing to modify underwater profiles as needed and add deck fittings to cover access points to achieve this.
Should be fun as so much research needed to compensate for lack of modelling skill, eyesight and ability? O0
I really need to get a grip. Could imitate a long tail outboard if all else fails.
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A trick that was mentioned a lot of years ago to achieve an outboard look (free magazine plan for a mini racer, mid-90's) was to mount the steering servo on top of the transom by its horn, and attach the rudder to the (inverted) servo body. The motor/ prop layout was a fairly standard inboard motor, but with the prop beyond the transom. One of my club members did a RIB lifeboat that way, it worked very well and, when exhibited caused lots of questions about the availability of his "outboard". Dressing the servo up to look like an outboard enhanced the illusion.
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Great idea!
50p to first person to find the article. :-))
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If it's gettable from Krick direct(ish), then this is cheap enough. It's a tad small (1:15) but with the 40+mm prop should be easy enough.
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Brain starting to ache now, should have stuck to chess?
Thanks for the ideas guys.
Seems like at Kricks the recommended outboard alone is 175 euro + everything else.
Don't think the 1/15 one would sparkle as bare boat weighs 5lbs.
Still digging the hole.
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Forget the Krick outboard, but the sterndrive is a compromise at about £15.00 and then you have whatever motor/esc you want inside the hull.
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Thanks Tony, could be a brilliant solution.
Looking now.
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Hi om,
Sorry, I am probably leading you up the garden path judging by the weight factor. I've looked at the sort of things that are on line with the Krick/Robbe sterndrive fitted and they all seem to be in the 3-4 lb all-up weight. If you have a look at this one, and the notes from the builder, you'll see what can be got and adjust brain accordingly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc57_rDts2QLarger ones, of course, are available BUT starting at about £90.00 which, defeats the object! :embarrassed:
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Thanks again Tony, not necessarily a defeat yet?
Maybe twin z's or a £90 as it solves the problem of getting the prop and rudder behind the transom?
Still working on it, no sweat as the kit was cheap second hand, giving room to move.
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This is the £90 one. There's another recent thread about getting stuff from Germany and Bauer are mentioned.The product info sheet is worth looking at. https://www.bauer-modelle.com/epages/Bauer_Uwe46269592.sf/en_GB/?ObjectID=68185802
O0
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A trick that was mentioned a lot of years ago to achieve an outboard look (free magazine plan for a mini racer, mid-90's) was to mount the steering servo on top of the transom by its horn, and attach the rudder to the (inverted) servo body. The motor/ prop layout was a fairly standard inboard motor, but with the prop beyond the transom. One of my club members did a RIB lifeboat that way, it worked very well and, when exhibited caused lots of questions about the availability of his "outboard". Dressing the servo up to look like an outboard enhanced the illusion.
I don't know the article/ boat mentioned above but this is a similar idea but not having the servo in the head. The motor construction starts around post 25:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1710137-1-10th-Scale-Caballero-%28Mechanix-Illustrated%29&perpage=50#post22446190z (https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1710137-1-10th-Scale-Caballero-%28Mechanix-Illustrated%29&perpage=50#post22446190z)
Whether this is easier than disguising a servo as a motor is up for debate
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Needing more illumination please concerning sustained brain fog.
Nearly definite on use of twin z drives which are rated to 15000 rpm and rigid prop shafts maintenance free rated to 13000 rpm. Question please any benefit/disadvantage with using flexible shafts, assuming such beasts exist in the correct sizes?
Also the benefit/need for flexible mounts to motors such as twin Outlander thumpers 2836/08?
Thanks in anticipation again, still trying to win?
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Flexible shafts are great in a racing boat, not very practical in other types. You can't reverse, and they nead regular maintenance. They wouldn't be my choice.
Chas
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Thanks chas.
om
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Be interesting to see how you get on with installing the stern-drive(s).
I'm using one in my Huntress build (same as in Tony's link) which is an interesting challenge - good to do something new. With this stern-drive you don't need a prop shaft or flexible shaft as the motor bolts straight onto the drive and connects via a small flexible shaft inside.
I haven't done anything for a couple of months though as it's mainly a winter hobby for me apart from running them.
Chris
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Thanks Chris, I didn't realise no shafts needed, will investigate that.
Regards
om
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Hi - when I'm back home a little later I'll post up a couple of pictures.
The drive cost me about £100 including 2 props and postage then you need to add a motor, I've got an Overlander of similar spec. to that recommended. Bit more expensive than a prop shaft and rudder but not too bad. I did think about two in the Huntress but mine's a smaller model at 23" and it's a bit tight in the hull.
Chris
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Few piccies. As the part that bolts onto the transom is quite bulky for my 1:12 scale build I've set the stern-drive into a recess.
As I said before the motor bolts onto the stern-drive. Installing the system for steering is a little bit fiddly - I'm using twin snakes (will be longer than shown) that run forward, past the battery and into the cockpit area where the servo will sit. More work to be done on that though and is where I left it.
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Topic renamed - Admin
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Thanks again Chris, a brilliant illustration giving me lots to consider.
Thanks Martin, if only the rename cleared some mist away.
om
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Whilst not in the same class, by some margin (!), the photo a few posts back reminded me of one of our family's earliest power boats and whilst going through old photos at my mothers the other day I was lucky enough to find a picture of it.
My recollection is vague as we are talking about 60 years ago, but I remember my father converting it into a family runabout. And I seem to remember being told it was some sort of remote control boat and had no seats in it. I definitely remember him cutting through the deck to form the seating areas. The boat was approx. 17 feet long.
Sorry about the quality but I took a photo of a very small B&W photo.
Chris
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Thinking more about it I seem to remember it being used for target practise and have found a picture of a boat with a very similar hull being towed/controlled and having a target mounted on it.
End of thread hijack!
Chris
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I seem to remember it being used for target practise
Sounds like the Queen Gull Ford E93a side valve engine powered. Muddle boats did an updated version of the original Muddle Maker Queen Gull plan.
Regards Ian.
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Thanks for the info. Ian, glad someone has heard of them. Here's the picture I mentioned, can find nothing else. Might be bigger than the one we had though, difficult to judge. Tow boat is HMAFV Wellington.
Apologies OM.
Chris
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They were 13ft 6ins long
and could be "distance controlled"
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Thanks N. Found some more info. following Ian's lead. Smaller than I thought.
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Well, at a stop for a while now.
Having unsuccessfully managed to source said z drives in the UK I contacted Krick in Germany, looked all good from a stock point of view so filled out my order, clicked to complete, Oops no postage destination in UK. We have been removed from their list post Brexit due to tax and other complications. Emailed a very helpful customer services to be given their UK agent details, no answer on the phone so email sent......Zzzzzzz?
Tried stockists in other EU countries to no avail even for suitable outboards, There may be a cheap boat on the ebay soon? O0 Only joking.
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Finally a moment of clarity? ? ?
Have decided to go outboard with an Aeronaut Retro. Found UK stock, motor and cooling fitted, no holes below the waterline. What's not to like.
Thanks for all of your help and replies.
om
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Very Nice OM,
Are you going to run it on the full 14v (4S) Lipo? Could be very interesting! :-))
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Nooooo Tony, trying to avoid Lipo, thinking cowardly NiMh?
Lipo maybe a bit too unstable for me knowing my propensity for getting smoke and grinding so easily?
Thinking 8.4v 3000A initially, comment welcome as looking for easy use and few breakdowns. 9.6 v 5000 an option?
om
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No, not cowardly atall. Just thinking about weightwatchers! :-))
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Considering bare boat weight of 5lbs 9.6v probably best all round?
O0 ?
om
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:-))
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More information needed please.
Most things bought now so need advice on how to avoid smoke, grinding and wallet stresses?
I have:
FlySky Tx and RX.
Aquanaut Retro Outboard (800W water cooled)
80A water cooled ESC BEC.
9.6V NiMh 5000W racing pack Tamiya
HiTec servo
Tamiya connectors.
Wiring plan from here.
Need advice please regarding suitable fuse ratings and fitments for fitting to + on battery and + ESC to motor? No doubt will require more wire. Plan to layout prior installing.
All comments gratefully received, thank you. O0
om
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Hi om,
Others better qualified can advise on connectors etc because there are plenty of options but I'd certainly suggest you get something like this https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-180a-watt-meter-and-power-analyzer.html?queryID=26638358d7dbd7dc97a1e23bed0726a1&objectID=42854&indexName=hbk_live_products_analytics (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-180a-watt-meter-and-power-analyzer.html?queryID=26638358d7dbd7dc97a1e23bed0726a1&objectID=42854&indexName=hbk_live_products_analyticsThere) There are plenty around down to less than a tenner but it means that you know what current you're using so you can decide on a fuse.
Cheers
Tony
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From the shopping list, ditch the Tamiya connectors, replace with XT60 or similar.
The 8 cell 5AH (5000mAH) NiMH pack should be fine.
Before considering a fuse, you do need to know what current to expect to draw. There soon comes a point in any battery operated system when, with higher currents, the size and weight of the appropriate theoretical fuse and its mount outweighs its usefulness. Normal Tamiya connectors are a very effective fuse, but often, not when one is wanted.
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Auto fuses are very cheap so an alternative method is to start small and work up 5amp at a time until it doesn't blow.
You don't even need a fuse holder, you can use a female spade connector on each blade.
An example where I recently fitted a 3 amp fuse to my bilge pump. You can go as high as 40amp in standard size auto fuses.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Stevns-Arctic/i-MRHmnT8/0/a2eb6aa9/L/6A6CB1C6-BA32-416B-93E6-579768A5F334-L.jpg)
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Thanks so far guys.
om
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Oops!
Not a good moment, maybe don't try this build on your slipway? Inexperience may have caused an about turn on drive method?
The Retro outboard will not fit the transom rake or sit in the vertical position required for the cavitation plate to site correctly, additionally the steering eyes fall below the transom top? Needs a major GRP remodel to rectify?
Taking it to club Monday for confirmation from the scratch builders that it's a no go?
Could be Outboard and ESC for sale, reverting to original Z drive idea or maybe the whole lot to go and buy one ready to run?
Oh, what fun? {-)
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Can't you just sandwich the transom between a couple of wedge shaped plates. Looking at the pics of a bellazza you could size them to lift the motor enough and also change the attitude?
Never give in at least until you've sunk it!
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Even with a Z drive the transom needs to be vertical. I've no experience of modifying GRP and plastic hulls but doubt it is easy. I suppose you can glue Plasticard in place and fill?
The outboard can't be raised too much as the prop won't be in the correct position. To accommodate the steering the transom often has a cut out in it.
Chris
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Thanks guys. Had a eureka moment this morning at 05.50. Pretty sure I am wrong. It should fit.
I need to stop fiddling when tired. I was trying to mount cavitation plate mentally at the keel level not the actual waterlevel noted from buoyancy test.
Lots to learn. Phew.
Om
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My understanding is that the cavitation plate needs to be just skimming the water surface when the boat is on the plane so in fact it will be down at the bottom of the boat and not at the waterline when the boat is stationary. Also needed there to give the prop a decent flow of water.
On my Huntress I'm fitting the Z-drive (same principle) with the cavitation plate just above the bottom of the hull and the majority of the prop below it.
Chris
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Thanks Chris, If that is the case, not doubting you, that goes to my thought of the motor not fitting the hull without a stand off to allow the outboard to turn and position to drop more then can be accommodated without major modification.
No Z drives available anyhow.
I am back to looking on the tube as my memory of the video of my hull seemed to receive an outboard easily? will have to track down the one used but think it was slightly smaller than the Retro I have?
om
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Found the Outboard twinned with the hull (Krick S85 flex) but unable to compare actual dimensions needed from data on line. Seems slimmer and taller. After consulting with a real modeller decided to make a jack plate allowing the motor to step off the transom and give some height adjustment to allow trial runs without butchering the boat too much, it may just plane fine?......Will see?
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I was looking at building a boat with an outboard on but it is difficult to find one of a suitable size and more importantly height. One's like the one you have are more suitable for race boats with shallow transoms.
Ones that are more suitable are the old ones but they go for crazy money now and are a bit big as I build at 1:12. I did find a cheap plastic one which might do the job - it is only low power but as it's a small river cruiser it might be Ok. Needs modifying as well though for RC steering.
I've started doing the drawings for the model (haven't done anything for awhile though) and am working on it being an inboard now.
Chris
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Thanks Chris, agreed about my outboard choice, still learning that too much research is impossible and that model shops can't know compatibility of all products they sell?
Scale of mine 1/10 so will see how it goes, not sinking will be a good start. :} Have planned a recovery float and line.
Uwe Bauer from Bauer Modelle in Germany was very, very helpful, unfortunately for me after my purchase. {-)
om
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Well, finally back to it, maybe. Thanks for all of the information so far. I have taken the advice of up rating the wiring plugs etc to avoid meltdown and will change asap during build.
Next question please, has anyone here experience of using a Shark Marine 80 A ESC, specifically the easiest way to re programme for NiMh battery use? I think that the other settings will suffice for outboard use as supplied?
As declared previously I know nothing of sparky things. <:( Have not yet managed to find a programming card whatever that is.
There is a lovely nearly ready to go Tug on the bay now. >>:-( {-)
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There seem to be loads of sources for the ESC, so logically each of them "should" be able to sell you one. The main source is likely to be Bangood but you'll find one elsewhere. https://www.banggood.com/Surpass-Hobby-Program-Card-for-RC-Airplane-Boat-ZTW-Shark-Beetle-Brushless-ESC-p-1558326.html?cur_warehouse=CN&rmmds=search
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Thanks once more Tony, hope you are well.
You beat me to it once more as I got sidetracked again. >>:-(
Regards om
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Just goes to show what an unstressed life I lead :-))
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Wow, can't imagine that at present.
Card now on way, can be on a free loan to any other unfortunate soul. %%
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Sorry, you've got to get a better Yogi!
Come to think of it, I can hear the words from the orange garbed faithful in Oxford Street calling to you "Om.......Om........Om!"
%)
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Mm, thicker than Yogi bears opinion of Ranger Smith is me. Boo, Boo to you too.
I hear the call from the orange robed disciples regularly here on my way to boat club. {-)
Om. Om.