Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Painting, Finishing and Care. => Topic started by: Bodger on October 23, 2007, 12:17:23 AM

Title: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Bodger on October 23, 2007, 12:17:23 AM
Just in the process of planking my St Canute tug, I will have gaps and profiles to make up, what is the best type of filler to use?  Last model I  made the filler was too hard and when sanded the wood was removed leaving the hard filler and a 'rippled' hull!

Cheers Bodger :-\
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: RickF on October 23, 2007, 12:29:19 AM
I use the cheapest P38/P40 filler from Halfords - sands very well. For tiny jobs I use Humbrol plastic filler.

Rick
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: boatmadman on October 23, 2007, 06:50:14 AM
P38 for me as well, great stuff, goes off quickly as well so you dont have to wait long to get sanding.

Ian
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Shipmate60 on October 23, 2007, 08:12:21 AM
Yep,
P38 for mee too.

Bob
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 23, 2007, 08:55:11 AM
And me! It doesn't seem to be too critical on the filler/hardener ratio either so you can just mix up small blobs if you need to. Nice and soft to sand and sticks to plasticard too.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 23, 2007, 09:03:37 AM
Last car filler I used was from the pound shop... and it was the easy sand type too!
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: DickyD on October 23, 2007, 09:18:01 AM
P38 and Humbrol  O0
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Guy Bagley on October 23, 2007, 09:55:03 AM
p38 and upol fillers everytime, the humbrol filler is good on plasticard and you can soften it by adding a few drops of MEK too........
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: John W E on October 23, 2007, 12:32:17 PM
Hi there Bodger, how is Badger  :D :D

First of all, may I ask what material your hull is planked with?  If it is balsa wood, I use a trick, when working with hulls that have been planked with balsa.   This trick is to first of all coat the hull with polyester resin with hardener mixed in.   Then allow the polyester resin to cure, and, once cured then I fill with the bog-standard P38 filler.    This process toughens the balsa up and avoids a situation of the planking sanding down before the filler sands down.

Also, I have several different shaped sanding blocks which I always use when I am going through the process of fairing a model hull.

Just another tip, if you are ever stuck for filler and have polyester resin and hardener - raid the Christmas talcum powders - the stuff that is put in cupboard every year  :) and, what you can do, is mix a ratio 1 part polyester resin to 20 parts talcum powder.   Once the consistency of the mix is like a putty, and smelling rather sweet  ??? you can scoop out what you require and add the hardener mix.  For those who are wondering, the majority of standard P38 fillers is just a mixture of French Chalk sweet smelling talcum powder and polyester resin with one or two thickeners added by the manufacturers.

Hope this of some help.

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: dougal99 on October 23, 2007, 04:58:13 PM
When I filled the gaps on my Brittany trawler, I covered the hull in paper masking tape and forced the filler (P38) through the planking from the inside. This way the filler is moulded close to the shape of the hull and needs little sanding to match the hull surface. Worked for me  O0

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Stavros on October 23, 2007, 05:02:18 PM
This is the stuff I use it is a lot softer and hence a dammed easier to use available from Halfords
Stavros
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 23, 2007, 05:39:27 PM
Yes, I've seen that Stavros - but only in whopping great expensive tins. Do they do a smaller size?
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Stavros on October 23, 2007, 07:41:43 PM
Come on it's only 8

Stavros
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: ABRAD on October 25, 2007, 01:05:09 AM
My farther was a cabinet maker and In those day a lot of veneer was used, any gaps were filled with chewed bread!! (yes you read right) it sands like wood when dry and takes stain similar to timber, leaving no tell tale filler marks,
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 25, 2007, 09:17:46 AM
That's something I didn't know! The phrase "feeding the ducks" takes on a whole new meaning, your boat could be eaten!  :o
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: John W E on October 25, 2007, 09:53:10 AM
Hi there Abrad

Yes, my Grandfather was a cabinet-maker and he often told us of different methods for filling. Like you have said 'chewed bread' mixed with saw dust and large wood chips were then mixed in with the bread that was used to fill some gaps.   It was the starch in the bread that bonded it all together.  Also, the glue (which they used to boil in a pot) can't recall the name at the moment but someone may remember the name of it they used to mix the sawdust with that as well.

I dont know if anyone can recall the horrible smells that were sometimes around from - what we used to call the bone yards, where they used to boil animal bones to make glue.

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: barriew on October 25, 2007, 11:18:47 AM

I dont know if anyone can recall the horrible smells that were sometimes around from - what we used to call the bone yards, where they used to boil animal bones to make glue.

aye
john e
bluebird

Yep!! Lived in Padgate for a time and the Evostick works was about half a mile away - if the wind was coming that way you had to keep the windows closed!

Barrie
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: tigertiger on October 25, 2007, 11:59:13 AM
I remeber we used to use another glue called Cascamite, which is a resin based powder, just add water, is waterproof when dry and very strong. I think we mixed this with sawdust as well.

We certanly mixed the stinky white fish glue with sawdust.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Subculture on October 25, 2007, 02:00:18 PM
I'd take the earlier suggestion of coating the timber hull with polyester resin first. I'd also add that a adding a layer of glass tissue will make your hull incredibly tough and waterproof. Polyester resin on it's own can be a bit brittle.

Then just use one of the polyester fillers recommended already to fill in any lumpiness and sand to smooth.

Andy
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: DickyD on October 25, 2007, 03:55:30 PM
Hi there Abrad

Yes, my Grandfather was a cabinet-maker and he often told us of different methods for filling. Like you have said 'chewed bread' mixed with saw dust and large wood chips were then mixed in with the bread that was used to fill some gaps.   It was the starch in the bread that bonded it all together.  Also, the glue (which they used to boil in a pot) can't recall the name at the moment but someone may remember the name of it they used to mix the sawdust with that as well.

I dont know if anyone can recall the horrible smells that were sometimes around from - what we used to call the bone yards, where they used to boil animal bones to make glue.

aye
john e
bluebird
The glue they used to melt in the pot was animal glue otherwise known as hide or scotch glue. I spent many hours of my apprenticeship boiling this for the joiners.

I also when I was truck driving used to take occasional loads of Supermarket butchers bones, 20 tons at a time, from the cold stores to a place near Heathrow airport where they were boiled down, which was a derelict factory with no roofs. When we arrived we stayed in the cab with the windows up while the trailers were unloaded. The workers opened the doors and most of the bones etc walked out on their own. The smell, the dust in summer and the slurry in winter were awful . The blokes that worked there earned every penny of their wages.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: DickyD on October 25, 2007, 03:58:58 PM
I remeber we used to use another glue called Cascamite, which is a resin based powder, just add water, is waterproof when dry and very strong. I think we mixed this with sawdust as well.

We certanly mixed the stinky white fish glue with sawdust.

I think you will find that Cascamite is now called ResinMite. Used to use it alot doing joinery. A really strong glue.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: John W E on October 25, 2007, 04:01:28 PM
hi there

For those who are interested, the procedure I use, for finishing a planked hull, whether balsa or obechi planked, is, first of all coat the hull with a covering of polyester resin, with hardener mixed - allow this to soak through into the planking and cure.  Then proceed and do all the filling with P38 - and when I have finished sanding and faring the hull in, I finish sanding with a coarse abrasive paper of something like 80 or 60 grit.  This allows for a good mechanical bond for the first coat of polyester resin. Then when that polyester resin has cured, then I give another coat of polyester resin and immediately lay over the top of this, tissue matting.  I draw the resin through the tissue matting by rolling it, using a washered-roller or a short haired brush - once this lamination has cured, I then give a further two coats of pure polyester resin over the top of this, thus allowing this to cure for at least a day.    I then go back and finish sanding the hull using various grades of wet 'n dry.   It may seem a long process, but, I have never yet had a hull fail apart from when I tried to take out a concrete dock side at the lake  ;D and even then it just took a little chunk out of the bow.  Easy fixed with a little bit more P38 filler.

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 25, 2007, 04:32:58 PM
Quote
I think you will find that Cascamite is now called ResinMite. Used to use it alot doing joinery. A really strong glue.

It also goes under the name of Extramite as marketed by Humbrol.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: John W E on October 25, 2007, 04:36:10 PM
Humbrol though, they owned Airfix and several other companies and now with Hornby taking Airfix over and Humbrol - will we will be able to get these Glues?   or are we getting into a Sticky situation here  {-) {-) {-) {-)

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: djrobbo on October 26, 2007, 08:32:38 PM
Hi all...  cascamite which is now called extramite is available from screwfix......just recieved a new tub...........wonderful stuff...sticks like the proverbial and the army blanket

              regards  bob..
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 26, 2007, 08:40:17 PM
Just goes to show that the original is sometimes the best! And it's as closest to waterproof as you will ever get.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: portside II on October 26, 2007, 10:24:15 PM
Bob
 Do you have a product number for extramite as i looked /searched for it on the screwfix site  and it did'nt come up with anything.
daz
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 26, 2007, 10:50:03 PM
Portside II is right, it isn't listed on the Screwfix Website.

It is advertised here though: http://www.tool-up.co.uk/shop/diy/CAS125G.html
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: djrobbo on October 26, 2007, 11:28:14 PM
Hi guys..didnt order mine from the website , got it from the catalogue.....i"llhave a shuftie tomorrow and see what the item no and page no is. (its all outside in the workshop)..... O0

                                         regards....bob
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: djrobbo on October 26, 2007, 11:37:11 PM
Hi guys....just had a look on the website...it is listed as two part resin wood adhesive....item no...93511.....1.5 kg tub......7.99....but it is listed as a clear out item

                                         regards...bob..
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: portside II on October 27, 2007, 10:53:58 AM
cheers Bob  i will be calling into my local for a tub (thats the screwfix shop) ,from what i have read this stuff is good not only as a sealer /waterproofer  but as an adhesive too .
just one thing what is the cure time or is that dependant on the viscossity (how thick you make it).
daz
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: DickyD on October 27, 2007, 11:32:43 AM
cheers Bob  i will be calling into my local for a tub (thats the screwfix shop) ,from what i have read this stuff is good not only as a sealer /waterproofer  but as an adhesive too .
just one thing what is the cure time or is that dependant on the viscossity (how thick you make it).
daz

Cascamite/Extramite is an adhesive and can be obtained from the following:

http://www.buckandryan.co.uk/search.php/search/Manufacturer:CAS
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: djrobbo on October 27, 2007, 12:59:19 PM
Hi daz.....mix with water to a thick cream consistency and stick bits with it ! cure time about 45 mins but depends how thick you make it ...needs extra time to fully harden......I have a telectra launch i built in the 60's using cascamite and every glue joint is still good, and that includes getting wet and origionaly diesel fuel.....so its pretty good stuff.......problem is does not like being left on shelf in shed and getting frosted  so keep container tight and warm


                               regards.....bob.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Circlip on October 27, 2007, 04:31:09 PM

  Well DJ I have a Sea Hornet built in the 50s' using cascomite and is still strong -so there! Seriously though Daddy found
  that the old brown Fish glue CROID didn't work (come on wrinkleys get the memory cells working) and had to rebuild
  our ADAMCRAFT Seaplane tender (think again) due to it rekitting itself,  -water soluble glue don't work!!!!!
  Another tip with casco is to mix a small quantity of METHS in the mix, no, I didn't miss my gob when I was drinking it,
  it breaks the air bubbles down, another source of weakening the joint, that one given by an ex RAF airframe mech.
  probably didn't know what he was talking about, I think he worked on wooden airframes? Another one for the resin
  brigade is that on toy glider fuselages, instead of using glass matt over balsa i have used NYLON, in the event of a
  conflagration with Firma terra - quite often - not  only did it keep all the bits together, but it didn't split.  It takes a
  bit longer to fiddle with putting on but I found it worth it.
 
   
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: djrobbo on October 27, 2007, 10:33:00 PM
Hi circlip.....also in the 50"s or 60"s i cant remember which for sure (its age you know)....do you remember another glue called aerolite 306 ( i think)...could never make it work.....probably me....It does look as though screwfix are clearing out their stocks and not stocking it anymore , its not in their new catologue...probably worth stocking up on it at 7.99 for a 1.5 kg tub...beats humbrols price by a long way.


                                     regards....bob.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: DickyD on October 27, 2007, 11:05:39 PM
Just been on the Screwfix web site and according to that they dont stock it any more.
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: The long Build on October 27, 2007, 11:10:33 PM
Did you try the code " 93511", I put this in earlier and  it accepted it.. 5.00 delivery charge though..
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: portside II on October 28, 2007, 06:55:54 AM
i put the code in and there it was ,no problems
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Circlip on October 28, 2007, 10:46:39 AM

    Certainly do DJ, also remember the stuffing I got from Dad for bringing that home from Modeldrome in town
    on a saturday shopping trip with Mum, - should have been said Cascomite. It just shows what a pair of sad old
    b3ggers we are remembering glues of the 50's, and NO the rest of you out there, we didn't buy it to sniff,
    it was too dammed expensive to waste. Aerolite was another throw back from the WW2 era, Think it may
    have been developed for gluing Mosquito's back together, no doubt someone will correct me.

         Ian

Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: djrobbo on October 28, 2007, 05:15:48 PM
Hi guys...dickyd....its not actually called extramite any more at screwfix   its called two part resin wood glue, but can asure you it is the same stuff..........glad you found it guys O0 ;D ;D


                 regards all..........bob..
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Circlip on October 29, 2007, 12:49:50 PM

    Should I put my blue labled tin on fleebay under Antiques & Collectables ?
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: RickF on October 29, 2007, 01:00:14 PM
Of course -  some silly ********* will bid for it!
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: DickyD on October 29, 2007, 03:41:45 PM
Hi guys...dickyd....its not actually called extramite any more at screwfix   its called two part resin wood glue, but can asure you it is the same stuff..........glad you found it guys O0 ;D ;D


                 regards all..........bob..

Hmmmm see what happens when you retire, they change things behind your back and 40 odd years of experience is wasted. :(
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: portside II on October 31, 2007, 07:25:25 PM
Ha ,called into the screwfix branch in Hull the other day .gave them the product number and name ,oops "sorry sir this product does not exist ".
So on the web that afternoon put in an order for two tubs and a box of screws , and this aft a package delivered with my stuff ,Ha  take that trade counter .
daz
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: Bodger on November 05, 2007, 11:04:13 AM
Just got back to web site and a wealth of ideas for filling and finishing my hull, thanks all

Bodger
Title: Re: Filling in the gaps
Post by: ABRAD on January 16, 2008, 11:42:41 PM
Hi all,
       Heres a bit of useless info, as you may have read back somewhere in this string my farther was a cabinet maker, well, he used cascmite (made by Boardon adhesives) but to make it cure faster they added oxalic acid, derived from rhubarb leaves I think, it was also used to bleach Oak to give it an aged look. They soaked the oxalic acid in sacking and layed them on the table tops and bruised the surface by hitting it with chains and the like to push the acid into the surface, tricky little devils.