Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: Welsh_Druid on November 14, 2007, 12:20:45 pm
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Tiger
re your request on another thread, I will certainly post a build thread when I get it. All the kits had been sold at the show (5) so mine is on order and will be about 6 weeks I think he said. Attached are some photos ripped off a CD that Dave Metcalf gave me. I dont think he will mind its good publicity.
I should have it finished when you come over next year - you might even be allowed to sail it O0
Don
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Real nice ;D ;D ;D
What are her dimensions. Looking at the photo from the show the hull appears to be about 1m without bowsprit.
And thanks for the offer of a sail.
I may actually be home in late Jan early Feb, as well as the Mahyem 'do' in August.
TT
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Its 52inches overall (hull only 48") beam 11" Draft 8.5" approx 18lbs displacement.
From the advertisng leaflet - It is a replica of a 1913 pond yacht, fibreglass hull taken off a yacht that is known to have been sailing on the Round Pond Kensington in early 1913 - probably dates from late 1890's. As well as taking a mould of the hull we also sketched the original rig which we have faithfully reproduced. However the model has been enhanced to have a more scale appearance. The rig can be easily & quickly folded flat for transport and storage.
Kit - GRP hull, together with very comprehensive kit of parts including CNC cut beams, printed deck etc., Sail cloth, rigging cords, full size drawings ,including rigging, setting up of sail winch and cable runs plus building manual and much more.
All for £245 + p&p www.metcalf-mouldings.co.uk details of the hull are there but not the kit yet.
Don
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When she arrives, I would be interested to know what the packing wheight is. I may take one back on the plane with me. :angel:
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Why not contact Metcalf direct and find out
Stavros
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My Moonbeam arrived today 48 hours after dispatch. I was confronted with a large box, 48"x141/2"x11" (122x37x29) shipping weight shown as 9kg. Inside was ANOTHER box, the contents of which were comprehensibly wrapped in foamed plastic material. Absolute full marks for packaging and delivery . (Photo 1)
After unwrapping everything I found,
an excellent white grp moulded hull. Very smooth finish but (as expected) joint lines which will easily sand out. (Photo 2)
a sheet of CNC cut ply internal frames and formers for the servo and sail winch assembly, a printed sheet of ply for the deck, a printed sheet of ply for the deck cabins etc , a bundle of spar material and metal rods, 3 printed styrene sheets for the rudder assembly. (Photo3)
2 boxes of fittings ( various white metal castings of excellent quality) nuts and bolts, and a quantity of sailcloth. (Photo 4)
4 very large (full size) plans for hull and rig and sails plus a VERY comprehensive building manual including how to make your own sails.( Photo5)
So far VERY well pleased and impressed with the quality of the kit. Full marks to Metcalf Mouldings for this one.
watch this thread for an account of the building process.
Don B
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First Step - Stand completed.
Templates included with the kit made this easy.
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Progress report 2
Side strips and deck beams in place. The deck side strips which are glued to the upper edge of the hull are in two layers of 6mm x 3mm hardwood. The length required is 42 inches but the strips provided in the kit are only 36 inches long thus requiring butt joints. These joints must be staggered between the two layers but even so the joints can give a hard kink in what should be a smooth curved hull edge unless care is taken to avoid it (I clamped extra layers of wood either side until the glue had set). Full (42 inch) pieces would avoid this but Dave Metcalf says that his supplier could only supply 36 inch lengths. However I have (in the past) been able to obtain 48 inch lengths of spruce in these sizes.
The deck beams are CNC laser cut from a sheet of 6mm ply. These remove very easily from the sheet but of course still require edge shaping to fit the curve of the hull. No problem using my belt sander.
However when I came to fit beams 5 and 6 they just did not fit. After much study of the plans and measuring the hull, I realised that they were wrongly numbered and switching them round did the trick. Dave Metcalf says that he is aware of the problem and future kits will have the plan suitably amended.
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Rudder fabricated and fitted.
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Sailing next weekend then Don
Stavros
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No - I need a sail winch and Howes have run out of them until the New Year they say (and everyone else is much dearer) ::)
Anyway - I'm not rushing this one :D
Don
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No - I need a sail winch and Howes have run out of them until the New Year they say (and everyone else is much dearer) ::)
Anyway - I'm not rushing this one :D
Don
Have you tried Als Hobbies?
http://alshobbies.com/shop/cat.php?id=566&Desc=
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Have you tried Als Hobbies?
http://alshobbies.com/shop/cat.php?id=566&Desc=
Thanks Tiger, I needed some other items which are not stocked by Als. ( Al Machinchy is a model flying man so stocks mostly 35 meg stuff ) so I have them all on order from Howes. Anyway the HS785 servo is 99p more at Als - as my Mother used to say - look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves ;)
At this rate I guess the Moonbeam won't be finished when you are over here in January I'm sorry.
Don
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Have you tried Als Hobbies?
http://alshobbies.com/shop/cat.php?id=566&Desc=
Thanks Tiger, I needed some other items which are not stocked by Als. ( Al Machinchy is a model flying man so stocks mostly 35 meg stuff ) so I have them all on order from Howes. Anyway the HS785 servo is 99p more at Als - as my Mother used to say - look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves ;)
At this rate I guess the Moonbeam won't be finished when you are over here in January I'm sorry.
Don
No problem. I will be back in August as well hopefully so I can join the Mayhem shindig
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Nothing done over Christmas but a little today. Rudder heel fitting and rudder tube glued in, servo mount assembled from laser cut plywood pieces (piece numbers again differed from plan but easily spotted), servo fitted and whole assembly glued into place with 30minute expoxy reinforced with kevlar pulp. Servo operation tested - OK. Pulley wheel attached to front of servo mount is for the sail winch closed loop system.
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Further progress. Ballast installed, lead shot poured into the keel and fixed with resin.
Winch servo plate and sheet guide beams installed. ( Once again the laser cut beams were wrongly numbered !)
Winch and radio gear installed. The instructions suggest that all the radio gear should be fixed to the winch plate but the room is limited so I made a box for the battery as can be seen. (The switch seen lying at the bottom of the hull will be fixed through the deck.)
The closed loop and sheeting system was installed and the servo movement adjusted. All this is easiest done before the deck is fixed. Thats the next step.
Don B.
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Shroud plates fitted and deck put in place.
Then I encountered a snag. The shroud plates supplied are white metal castings and are fixed to the hull by glue and bolts through the hull sides. I do not like white metal for fittings which will take a strain but went along with these as they should not be subjected to any sideways bending. They are drilled for the bolts and countersunk which leaves very little metal around the bolt holes. They have to be fitted before the deck is put in place as the nuts are inaccesible afterwards.
Once the deck was on there was ,inevitably, some minor filling to be done and whilst moving the hull around to do this I knocked the protruding part of a shroud plate which snapped off at the weak point at the bolt hole. Not just one but on three of them >:(
As I could not get at the nuts to remove the remaining parts, all I could do was to reglue the loose bits and then put a further screw (not countersunk this time)through the plate and hull and into the deck beam inside. If I was starting again I would make some much stronger brass plates.
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What will your shrouds attach to the chain plates with? is there a risk of the white metal failing?
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I know nothing about white metal, but if it has low tensile strength I assume they will snap in the first strong blowof wind, or soon after.
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Thanks for the comments chaps. If you look carefully at the photo you can see where the break happened. I think that possibly the plates were not completely in contact with the curvature of the hull and thus not sufficiently glued to the hull above the top bolt hole. An outwards force thus allowed them to snap at the bolt hole. Now properly glued and the extra screw should help. The shrouds are attached with cord to the upper hole in the plate and I believe that white metal should be strong enough in tension to be OK for the pull exerted by the shrouds.
There is however another hole in the plate just above the deck line which does not appear to have any purpose on the plans. The kit has toe rails provided which are short white metal castings which must be joined together and fixed round the hull edge. I dont like this idea at all and propose to fix a mahogany toe rail instead. I should be able to use the "spare" hole to screw the plate to this toe rail for extra strengthening.
Once the mast is on and connected I will give it all a VERY good pull testing before going on the water :-\
Don B
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Hello Don,
White Metal for use as Chainplates has got to be the very worst choice of metals ever !!.
Having served an Apprenticeship in Engineering, a "feeling" is developed over the years as to what will work and what will not.
Chainplates are subjected to quite considerable shocks and strains, least of all being bashed into the quayside when docking.
I would scrap the ones supplied with the kit and make some new, stronger ones.
Buy some Brass Strip, 1.5 mm thick, 6 mm wide, or as near as possible to the original ones.
Copy the original Plates, then file a Radius on the outside edges of the new Plates to prevent then being pulled off the hull when rubbing against the Dockside.
Fit the new Plates to the Hull, with another Plate inside, so that the screws are clamping onto the Hull, no need for glue !!.
Rig the boat up fully, place into the water, hold the top of the Mast and shake from side to side "with vigour", did it break?, if the answer is NO, go sailing !!!!.
Have fun !!.
John. ;) ;) ;)
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Thanks John - you are so right. Before logging on and seeing your posting I had been having second thoughts about this and realised I was just bodging up the job because I was aprehensive about what seemed to be probably a major job to change the plates.
Access to the nuts on the bolts on the inside of the hull now that the deck is fitted is very difficult and I had also superglued the nuts to ensure they would not come loose :embarrassed:
Anyway I grasped the nettle so to speak and drilled out the bolt heads and then punched the bolts through the hull - of course it turned out to be an easier job than I feared (don't they all when you try ?) and now all I have to do is make some new shroud plates. Off to look in my "bits" box for suitable material such as I used on all my other yachts.
Don B. O0
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Hello Don,
Do it right and you should only do it once !!.
A little bit of "over engineering" does not come amiss!.
John. ;D ;D ;D
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Glad to see you not bodging it Don
Stavros
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Deck Saloons and cockpit assembled and varnished.
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Deck varnished, hull part painted, waterline needs to be filled in. Toe rail to fitted next ( when the timber arrives :( ).
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Looking good, Don. Following it with interest.
I'm viewing a 5 foot hull with the idea of having a go at one.
Cheers...Ken
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Latest update. - Hull finished ( white metal toe rails not used, instead I used mahogany strips. Varnished , I think they look much better than the white painted short metal srips in the kit) - mast(s) built - now waiting for the other spars and the sails.
Don B.
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Finished at last. First outing today on the lake. Sailed superbly, and tacked like a dream. Remarkably well balanced she would sail along steadily with no control inputs whilst I took photos and video shots.
Only drawback was the tendency of the rigging to stretch a lot - to the extent thaat I had to use all the adjustment on the shrouds and still could not stop the mast leaning forward when all was tight. However this will easily be rectified. Altogether a very nice boat.
Video here http://www.durnfords.co.uk/Moonbeam.wmv
Don B.
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You are a scrouge not wanting to buy a bottle of champers for us lot O0
ps looks good
Stavros
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Don is that mast raking fwd, it seems so in the pictures
Stavros
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Don is that mast raking fwd, it seems so in the pictures
Stavros
Yes a little - I said in the previous post that the cord provided for the shrouds in the kit stretched a VERY lot and there was not enough adjustment to pull the mast back - strangely enough it didn't seem to upset the trim - she still sailed straight with hands off the TX. I would have preferred to use wire for the shrouds but hey - its a 1900's model and cords are in keeping :embarrassed:
No champers on this launch - not even coffee with us today ??? ( Hey - I can't afford to build boats and buy alcohol !
Don
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Very nice video Don. Boats not bad either. {-)
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Don,
Instead of using cord, try using the braided line they use for backing on fly fishing reels, almost no stretch and available in all colours, should do the trick.........
Roy
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Hey, that's impressive Don
I know where to come for advice now. O0
Cheers...Ken
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Lovely looking boat Don.
You must be well pleased. O0
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Very nice i like the look of the topsail. i used fishing braid for standing rigging i had the same problem with my mast leaning forward the braid did the trick.
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I had the pleasure of seeing Mr Druid's Moonbeam recently in Llanberis.
Unfortunaltey not windy on the day so I did not get her to sail.
I hope he doesn't mind me posting some pics
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and a few more detail shots, that I know will help me in construction of my next project.
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last few.
As can be clearly seen, the Metcalf Moonbean is a very nice kit.
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Hi Don,
I have just come across your thread with great interest, checking Metcalfs website he only lists the yacht as a hull and plans are they in full kit production now? If it is a complete kit what else is needed did the sails come with it, also reading the thread what sails are adjustable on her with the winch servo. ???
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Hi Don,
I have just come across your thread with great interest, checking Metcalfs website he only lists the yacht as a hull and plans are they in full kit production now? If it is a complete kit what else is needed did the sails come with it, also reading the thread what sails are adjustable on her with the winch servo. ???
Yes it is available as a full kit. Sail material is included but you have to make them yourself. Patterns and instructions are included. The amount of thread supplied for the edges of the sails is slightly inadequate. All the sails are adjustable - there are good instructions on siting the winch and and fitting the control lines.
Further use of the boat (both mine and a friends) has shown that the white metal fittings in the kit are woefully inadequate - just not strong enough. The boat is rather overcanvassed for the amount of ballast that you can put in and still keep the waterline OK. We usually reef the topsail in anything other than a minimal breeze ( but then we do sail in a normally windy spot)and even then it can be overpressed quite easily.
The rudder construction needs to be beefed up by using a heavier gauge rudder post. This of course means adjusting the fittings that it fits in as well. I sailed it in the wild conditions at Wicksteed this year and damaged the rudder because I had stuck to the material supplied.
However it is a good looking boat and two sailing side by side looks very nice.
Don B.
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Hi all, I have seen the one due for magazine review soon. As an avid yachty I have two comments about mainly the design of the model.
1, A full size yacht would have a pair of backstays, either releasable depending on which tack she is on. These would support the mast when the wind is coming from astern. The model I saw did not look to me like a it would stand up to a real gust of wind from behind, I think the mast would collapse forward.
2, It is much easier to rig a yacht at the pond side if the mast is seated on the keel as it is then self supporting, afterall there will be a wind blowing!
If the mast was positioned like this it would help solve the above.
On a model of this size a working releasable backstay is entirely feasible and I would think safer. A collapsed mast in the middle of a lake is a bit of a b****r.
Its only my opinion but to me the triangles of support are not there.
regards Roy
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With reference to your comments, Roy. Have you built one or sailed one of these, with or without back stays.
I can assure you, that in a strong wind with gusts, they sail well. :-))
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Hi Nhp651, I bow to your experience.
I have seen one completed and the stern most shroud seemed hardly behind the mast, also bearing in mind that the mast is deck mounted. Apart from the sail sheet to the boom, I could not see what was going to hold the mast up with the wind astern.
I have an Endeavour J class (1 metre loa) and there is no way that could sail without a backstay.
I have 9 RC yachts plus 2 in building and have been out with several of them under extreme conditions. So I tend to build with possible disaster in mind.
On one occasion a scale yacht just 27 inches long sailed in high winds with the hull and all of the superstructure under water, just sails showing. Ran like that for 4 or 5 minutes still under RC control whilst trying to retrieve her, most eerie.
A medium breeze is about 20 mph and it exerts a force of 1 pound per square foot on a sail and Moonbeam has a lot of sail.
Anyway I shall keep my fingers crossed.
Admire the boat and she is very elegant and the build looks great.
Regards Roy
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no need to do that Roy, just go down on one knee and jenuflect, that'll do.
as for experience in yachting, I will confess I have ABSOLUTELY NONE.
my comments were made purely from obsevations of one I have seen sailing on Fleetwood lake...........well reknown for it's highly unpredictable wind and sailing patterns.......on numerous rough days, when she sailed very charactoristically as what she is....a replica Edwardian pond yacht, <*< :-))
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NHP651
I have sent you a PM.
Roy
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Ah well, nhp,
I have read the review in Marine Modelling for the Moonbeam and the reviewer decided that the mast should be seated on the keel, and also commented about the problem of there being no backstay.
Thats good enough for me, as here is someone who has built her and sailed her.
There was some comment on the mast leaning forward and using non stretching braid. My reel of braid is finished and the local fishing tackle shop does not sell it any more.
Does anyone know where I can buy some more?
With a gaff rig like this, when I have been drawing up a sail plan, I work out how far the mainsail boom will go out without spilling wind from the sails. There is no point in the mainboom going out any further so I use this to determine how far back a mast stay can be placed. This gives a good chance of the mast staying up in bad weather.
Sometimes with a scale sailing boat it is difficult to balance the wind forces so that she will sail on most points with a neutral rudder. When this happens I go for a larger (or smaller) jib or perhaps an extra one. They work quite well without having to be winched with the rest of the sails. Just have an eye at the clew with a running line through it.
It is surprising what can be worked out on paper beforehand with a little bit of geometry.
Moonbeam is very nice looking yacht, I look forward to seeing one sailing
regards Roy
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I have only just started mine (got the kit from Dave over a year ago !!!!) and having read the review in MMI I will be taking my mast down to the keel. Will post some pics of progress in a while.
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Topic moderated.
Martin :police:
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Hi steamboatphil, Don't forget to increase the length of the mast to allow for this. Sorry, sounds obvious but easily overlooked when the saw comes out.
The reviewer suggests using a tube to support the mast, looking always to save a bob where possible I experimented with diy rolled up paper tubes and with glue and stiffening varnish they have turned out to last well.
Putting the mast into a fixed tube makes the master stiffer and although it is still subject to bending forces, these are much further up the mast.
Good luck with the build,
regards Roy
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Roycv
I started this thread so obviously have built and sailed a Moonbeam, Have you ? Wth the designed rigging ( but with the proviso as to materials which I have spoken about) there is absolutely no problem with the security of the mast. There are two sailing at Llanberis and neither have had any problems despite sailing in the strong winds which we can often get there.
You say that it easier to rig with the mast through the deck. Well it would appear that you have not looked carefully enough. By stepping the mast on the deck and with the designed rigging it is possible ( and intended) to be able to lower the mast without releasing any of the rigging screws and fold it down along the hull for easy transport. This is simply not possible with a through the deck mast. I would guarantee to have my model ready for the water well before a similar model with your suggested modification.
I am interested in your comments regarding balancing sails to ensure straight running. The Moonbeam is a long keel boat. Have you ever sailed a full size long keel boat ? If you have you would know that it is virtually impossible to balance such a boat to sail on all points of sailing with neutral helm.
Of course a fin keel boat is another matter entirely ok2
BTW - anyone who was at the last Wicksteed Park Mayhem meeting will have seen my Moonbeam sailing in the VERY strong winds on the Saturday. Absolutely no problems with the mast security - even though it was so bad that the rudder was damaged by the weather helm stresses. ( Long keel yacht again %))
Don B.
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My lips are sealed!!!??? :D ;D {-)
Thankyou, Don. :-))
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Hi Welsh druid, interested in your response. All of my full size sailing has been in relatively modern fin keeled yachts. The biggest was a Moody 425, not mine, but I used to crew when possible for a friend. But then 30foot+, cats, down to dinghies and the sea scouts etc.
I am especially interested in your comments about long keel boats as I am near finishing a boat based on the Grand Banks Schooner Hull and as I have modified the hull (increased depth and added more topsides) I was concerned about the balance of the boat.
I shall have a spare jib ready but won't worry about it. So thanks on that score.
David Abbot showed me the Moonbeam he has built for Model Boats magazine, and also the way the rigging does stay with the boat. I have several sailing boats and now make up separate sail boxes, this helps with storage and transport and protects any fragile parts. This is especially needed for my 1 : 35 scale J class yacht. So that is where I was coming from on that point.
I will not be building Moonbeam as I have a genuine pond yacht from about 1904 or so to restore for my own use.
This is a plank on frame model with many screws and nails holding the planks onto the frames. She is a tad smaller than Moonbeam, but otherwise very similar. She has a keel mounted mast and is gaff rigged as per Moonbeam. She is in need of lots of TLC and I am caught between restoring her just to the Braine steering or to give her a scale appearance with R.C. Of course the Moonbeam deck treatment does appeal or possibly that of a Pilot Cutter.
I attach a picture of her so that you can see what she looks like. The 100 years is the opinion of the Chairman of the Vintage model yacht group. I thought she was from the 1930's but he said she was older, having been through a previous refit.
It is not that apparent where the mast stays / shrouds were mounted hence my particular interest in the way Moonbeam is fitted out, as I cannot fit a backstay for the same reasons. Although the mast is keel mounted the mast deck cut out is oval and offers no support, but here I am more concerned about water getting in!
Always open to ideas on this point.
So no Moonbeam for me but very interested in the genre.
regards Roy
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I think that model that you show us her is possibly based on the lines of a Morecambe Bay Prawner ( or Nobbie as they are known up here) and not a pilot cutter. see picture enclosed of ne built earlier.
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Well NHP, nice to see we are now on the same hymn sheet.
Nice pictures too, VMYG Chair thought she was a class racing boat and that she had not been very successful and was put away in the loft, which accounts for her good condition.
Which class he was not sure, as there were several classes that did not catch on. As far as I know she reappeared in a junk shop some 40 years ago and I swapped her new owner another item for her some years ago.
There is certainly a likeness in the hull and lines to the Nobby but I am not sure she is based on a working boat because of the way the deck planks have been drawn in (Pencil). Each drawn plank is tapered from a narrow part, bow and stern to the widest part in the middle. I believe this was the way for 'gentlemans' yachts then.
I now have a Thames Bawley on my list of boats to do and so am not so tempted down the fishing boat line.
No decision yet as to what to do, like I said I am first of all interested in mast rigging, the model originally used twisted picture hanging wire I am hoping to improve on that , but I keep a file of information and pictures.
Regards to all Roy
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well, you know that the nobbie lines were taken from a racing "yacht" of the period don't you.
that's why they had such fine lines for a fishing boat, and the thoughts were that they could be manned by the owner and boy.just two crewmen, and could be sailed in most weathers to and from the grounds quickly to catch market, unlike the pilot cutters of the day which needed at least 3 crewmen.
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Hi
How much is Metcalf's Moonbeam including postage to buy,
Martin
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have a look for yourself
http://business.virgin.net/metcalf.mouldings/catalogue.htm
Stavros
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Well NHP, nice to see we are now on the same hymn sheet...
There is certainly a likeness in the hull and lines to the Nobby but I am not sure she is based on a working boat because of the way the deck planks have been drawn in (Pencil). Each drawn plank is tapered from a narrow part, bow and stern to the widest part in the middle. I believe this was the way for 'gentlemans' yachts then.
Hi Roy
I am sorry I missed this thread before.
Looking at the above I have had some thoughts.
The drawn on deck planking may have been a result of the refit. And it is possible the new owner (c.1930) thought she was a yacht and did the deck accordingly. Or maybe just fancied changing her into a yacht, with no regards to, or understanding of, the original design.
It is also possible the masts and rigging got lost/damaged between 1900 and 1930 and the new owner rigged her as a yacht.
Nice Nobby BTW Nhp
Very nice
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Re Sailing full sized long keel boats,
I have always found it much easier to balance than a fin keeler, we need an autohelm to keep the fin keel on a decent heading but with the old Hillyard, just a line round tiller used to do.
I always thought that was one of the advantages of a long keel, directional stability ??
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have a look for yourself
http://business.virgin.net/metcalf.mouldings/catalogue.htm
Stavros
That is only the Hull not the kit,
Martin
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I think the Kit is £245, not sure about p&p, and you get everything in the box (apart for the radio and lead weights)
I see Dave is also doing the sails as a finished item for those of us that are c**p with a needle (sails are I think £100-00) :-))
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The boss has bought it for me for Christmas,
Just finished making the sails for Waverley models Galway Hooker
Then I start Moonbeam after Christmas,
Martin
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Have fun with the build, mines still in the box until I have decorated the hall :((
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this is what I am hoping the hooker will look like
when it's finished
Martin
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Hi,
do all the Moonbeamers find the rudder adequate or would it be advised to make a slightly larger one