Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Full Scale Ships => Topic started by: cos918 on November 19, 2007, 08:02:56 pm

Title: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on November 19, 2007, 08:02:56 pm
Well now the new Queen Victoria is all most ready for her maiden voyage. What are you thoughts on her compared to here sisters QM2 QE2 , have Cunard mad a glorified ferry or a classy liner. john PS can beat QE2 for looks.



Topic name updated - Admin.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 19, 2007, 08:08:40 pm
Unlike Queen Mary 2 which is a genuine transatlantic liner, Queen Victoria is just a standard cut off by the quarter mile cruise ship with a fancy paint job. Basically she is a marketing exercise.

Mind you, I don't much like the look of QM2 either.

I believe that Cunard/Carnival are now ordering another cruise ship to be called Queen Elizabeth 2, effectively to replace QE2 when she retires next year.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on November 19, 2007, 08:16:13 pm
quite agree with you Colin.
Cunard have said the new boat similar in shape to queen Victoria will be called Queen Elizabeth not QE3  :-\.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: meechingman on November 20, 2007, 01:19:29 pm
QM2? Imposing.  ??? QE2? Stunning!  O0  QV? Butt Ugly!  :'(

Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Bryan Young on November 22, 2007, 05:32:41 pm
QM2? Imposing.  ??? QE2? Stunning!  O0  QV? Butt Ugly!  :'(


Perhaps it all happens because ship designers nowadays are incapable of drawing anything other than straight lines. All went pear-shaped when they all got the same computer programme. Like cars etc. etc. etc.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 22, 2007, 06:03:35 pm
I think it's just because it's a lot cheaper to build things which are all straight lines. Even with the QE2 a lot of the "curviness" is actually an optical illusion due to the paint job. The rise of the bow is actually at an angle from around under the bridge front, it's the paint which imparts the swooping sheerline.

In "traditional" ships all the cabins had to be virtually handbuilt to match the sheer and camber of the part of the ship in which they were situated. Now they just build them off site with all the plumbing etc. and drop 'em in. That's why that big cruise ship that suffered the bad fire a while back (forget the name) could be put back into service so quickly.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 22, 2007, 06:40:42 pm
Colin if you stand on one end of deck three of the QE2 you can see the tremendous sheer of her deck the full length of the vessel.

Nowadays ships, as well as cars, are all striving for efficiency of design and maximising fuel economy.  Ships of earlier generations such as the QE2 were made in a time when fuel was not the major issue it is today, when she could do 32 knots on a steam plant and use 700 tons of fuel a day and no one lost any sleep over it.  Nowadays a ship considerably larger than her would be designed to do a slower speed and use maybe 100-150 tons per day.

No-one builds ships nowadays without paying attention to her ability to perform in todays cut throat markets so not only do they have to be as cheap as possible to build but they also have to be as cheap as possible to run.  Not only could we never afford to build the QE2 again but no-one could afford to run her.  When she was converted to Diesel Electric she was fitted with 9 Diesel engines to maintain her performance.  In the last few years her itinery, including Trans Atlantics, require no more than six of them to be on line at any time.

The Queen Victoria is a typical example of a new ship, she is beautifully fitted out internally and has a very efficient Diesel Electric plant designed to meet modern emmission and waste water regulations.  As with most of these things we have to move on in an ever changing world and although the overall look might not be to our accepted norm she is a nice ship.

Modular ship construction techniques such as Colin is describing above is only following similar practises in every area of our lives nowadays from building cars to putting up houses or supermarkets.

Lets not forget that when the QE2 was introduced to the world in 1969 she was universally slagged off as being far too modern and not in the mould of the traditional liner.  Now we see her as the beautifull old lady, you have to smile.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 22, 2007, 07:02:42 pm
Bunkerbarge,

You have  served on QE2 so you should know, but my comments were based on Philip Dawson's book "British Superliners of the Sixties". I've scanned the relevant bit but don't know if it will be legible.

Edit - yes it is, especially if you increase the magnification!
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 22, 2007, 08:23:00 pm
Without getting too deep in why's and wherefore's of the QE2's shape, and where the comment came from, I can quite clearly say from my own experience that some the decks of the QE2 are not flat and Deck 3 in particular makes this very obvious as it is a deck the full length of the ship.

Maybe the upper decks are, I'm not sure but I'll try to find out a bit more.

Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 22, 2007, 08:32:20 pm
Colin, it may well be that the decks in the hull have sheer but the upper decks do not.  These obviously having more relevence to the external appearance would require the optical illusions described in the book.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 22, 2007, 09:07:56 pm
I can't see the sense in doing that as it's inside the ship that you want the "squareness" to simplify construction. What Philip Dawson is saying is that the middle sections of the decks were flat and that there was an angled turn up at each end. I don't know whether that would give the effect you have seen. Maybe the ship has just bent a bit in service  ::)

The drawing below is taken from Dawson's book and the caption draws attention to the way in which the decks amidships are flat with the bow and stern sections angled up.

The photo is one I took on board the old Queen Mary. Although not all that apparent in the picture, the corridor has a gentle curve all the way along up to the bow. The picture was taken from about midships looking forward.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 22, 2007, 10:13:42 pm
The expression "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" surely applies here. My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that QE2 is a beautiful example of the marine architect's art, but as Bunkerbarge pointed out, when she was launched, she was regarded as being too "modern". The squared off stern of the 2 new Queens does not appeal to me, it is reminiscent of a Ro-Ro ferry.
Cos818, you are quite correct about the name of the new Queen Elizabeth, according to the Cunard web-site there will be no number attached to the name. It will be built by Fincantieri, as was QV.
As far as the sheer of the decks goes, I will let you know next year, as my wife and I are booked on the return leg of her final World Cruise, from Sydney to Southampton. We booked in January, and at the time had no idea that she would be sold, so it will be that little bit "extra special" to be leaving Sydney for the last time aboard "The most famous ship in the world". O0
Peter.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 22, 2007, 10:24:44 pm
I certainly agree that QE2 is a beautiful looking ship but a clever paint job helps too. Even the old Normandie benefited from that. In earlier days the black hull paint on Mauretania and Lusitania was raised by one deck after completion to make the ships look lower and more rakish like the ocean greyhounds they were.

While basically just a standard Fincantieri design, the paint scheme of the new Queen Victoria does make her look more attractive than the standard all white model. Probably puts an increased load on the air conditioning though!

Lucky you, booked on QE2 from Sydney. Definitely something to tell your grandchildren.  O0
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on November 22, 2007, 10:45:31 pm
hi there . peterfitness i am on the same cruise as you. I am doing the Southampton to New York on the QE2 , she the escort to the new QV and at new York we meet QM2. Mmm 3 queens together for one time should be nice O0.
bunkerbarge i read you thread on fuel figers and how modern ships run slower. If i remember rightly the QM2 is about 150 000 tons and can do 29 knots , so she not that far behind QE2. As for QV performance figers cant find any thing out yet put i doughty they will match QM2 or QE2.
john
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 22, 2007, 10:55:22 pm
Wikpedia quotes Queen Vic details as follows - probably accurate:

Tonnage: 90,000 gross tons
Displacement: N/A
Length: 294 m (964.5 ft)
Beam: 41 m (135 ft) waterline, 36.6 m (120 ft) extreme (bridge wings)
Draft: 8 m (26 ft 3 in}
Height: 62.5 m (205 ft) keel to funnel (includes 12 passenger decks)
Power: 63.4 MW Sulzer ZA40 diesel plant
Propulsion: Two 16.7 MW pods: independently azimuthing
Speed: approximately 24 knots (44 km/h)
Complement: 2,014 passengers, 900 officers and crew
Cost: UKú270 million (approx.)
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on November 22, 2007, 11:06:18 pm
intresting . Not a true north Atlantic grey hound then with a top speed of 24 knots
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 22, 2007, 11:37:32 pm
No, but that's a respectable speed for a 90,000 ton cruise ship. Although a lot of the time they travel rather more slowly.
Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 22, 2007, 11:43:55 pm
Colin, you actually make a very interesting point there regarding the A/C.

We had a survey done a couple of years ago and estimated that the dark hull puts approximately 12% additional load on the A/C plant.  When you consider that 60% of our fuel bill goes on A/C you realise we are talking big bucks here for having the dark hull.  That was one of the reasons for the QE2 going for the Pebble Grey colour scheme in 1983.  They went back to Royal Blue because it looked so awfull in light grey!

The specification of the Queen Vic is actually quite similar to us (and built in the same yard!) so depending on her itinery I would estimate her fuel consumption to be in the region of 100 to 150 tons per day.  At $500.00 per ton she will be looking at an annual fuel bill in the region of round about 20 Million dollars.

Title: Re: Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 23, 2007, 12:02:23 am
I can't remember the actual figures but when P&O went over to white hulls in the late 1930s, before air conditioning, it made a very significant difference to the internal temperature of the hull so I would think that the decision to give the Queen Vic a traditional Cunard colour scheme could be quite expensive on tropical cruises although on North Atlantic trips it would be less of a problem.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 24, 2007, 01:19:31 am
Colin, I have already told my grandchildren, many times, I think they are sick of the name QE2 {-) The local paper has been in touch with us and wants to run a story on our trip. Amazingly, there are at least 2 other couples from our area booked on the same cruise as us, but on different segments. One couple from the same village as us is travelling from Southampton to Sydney, and another couple from the next town is joining in Valparaiso, Chile, and leaving in Sydney. We will be a part of history as the QE2 sails through Sydney Heads for the last time - it has made a number of visits to Sydney, and I remember going down to the Overseas Passenger Terminal in Circular Quay to see her, whilst I was on a visit to Sydney in 1988, never dreaming I would be on board myself one day. We just have to stay healthy :)
Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have them made a mess or not
Post by: roycv on November 24, 2007, 01:44:41 pm
Hi all, I have been following this thread with interest.  I see from the stats that she has a cruising speed of just 18 knots.  Maximum speed 23.7 knots.
But also see that she has been strengthened for crossing the north atlantic.  She is the 12th of the Vista Class from the Fincantieri yard

A piece of luck came my way and I have an invitation to visit the QV on the Sunday before she is officially named by Camilla.  I have an invite for the morning which includes lunch but have to be off by 2 o/clock.

Regards to all Roy
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have them made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 24, 2007, 05:45:04 pm
...and I'm doing a cruise on her in May so I hope all is well by then.  The Fincantieri Vista Class are mostly Holland America ships although they have actually developed quite a bit since the first ones.



Perter, enjoy your cruise.  The QE2 has been considered, ever since I was a boy, the Flagship of the British Merchant Navy and she now retires a wonderfull old lady, steeped in history.

She has certainly had her ups and downs, from fires and bomb scares to technical issues and groundings but she is still a superb piece of engineering that nothing before or since has been able to match.  She has main motors twice the size of many ships considerably bigger and is currently the fastest liner by a long way.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on December 01, 2007, 07:01:26 pm
Here's the original Queen Mary. She was renamed Queen Mary II when Cunard's QM was built but has since reverted to her previous name. Now a floating restaurant and nightclub on the Thames. She was originally a Clyde turbine steamer.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Mr Andy on December 01, 2007, 09:50:18 pm
Can I just add to this I just think it's just a massive shame that Cunard are building new ships for the travelling British public, yet they can't even be bothered to have their ships built in British yards. >:(
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: DickyD on December 01, 2007, 09:57:22 pm
We haven't any yards left that could build a ship this size plus Cunard is now an American company. >:(
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on December 01, 2007, 10:00:18 pm
Cunard have been owned by the American Carnival corporation for yonks and are now just one of their marketing arms.

The UK shipbuilding industry no longer has the capacity or expertise to build sizable passenger vessels. Most now come from Finland or Italy. In fact the UK shipbuilding/ship repairing industry now has limited capacity full stop. Recent Governments didn't consider it to be very important.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: DickyD on December 02, 2007, 12:18:45 pm
Didn't I just say that ? >>:-(
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on December 02, 2007, 01:17:29 pm
No Richard, you said it yesterday!  ;D
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: DickyD on December 02, 2007, 01:23:57 pm
Sorry, didn't I say that on the 1st December.  ::)
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Ghost in the shell on December 02, 2007, 03:42:58 pm
...The UK shipbuilding industry no longer has the capacity or expertise to build sizable passenger vessels. Most now come from Finland or Italy. In fact the UK shipbuilding/ship repairing industry now has limited capacity full stop. Recent Governments didn't consider it to be very important.

which, being totally off topic here, HAS KILLED BRITISH INDUSTRIAL MIGHT AND IS UTTERLY DISGRACEFUL
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Positive on December 12, 2007, 09:47:47 pm
I sailed in seven of the castles between 1965 & 1976 & would not have swapped any of them for the strange looking things that are floating about today.     This is the last big one I sailed in, EDINBURGH CASTE, 27,000 gross tons.     I did my last 13 years at sea aboard the two tiny passenger ships ST. HELENA (I) & ST. HELENA (II) that took over the run after the demise of Union-Castle.
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6075/edinburghcastleqj1.jpg)
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: footskijunior on December 30, 2007, 07:38:49 pm
have seen a lot of the super liners on m y travels around the Carribbean, and i agree, none have the same stunning lines as the QE2 and the Canberra, they are just a glorified block of flats in my opinion, and I have a feeling that they will get too big, and we will have another Titanic on our hands...
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Liverbudgie on December 30, 2007, 08:30:19 pm
More to the point it is the EU which will not allow large vessels to built in the UK - it is not policy apparently. One more reason to to dump the whole e****g lot and start on our own again, **** the EU is my motto  >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

LB
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: DavieTait on December 30, 2007, 08:42:47 pm
See they've had 300 people on this cruise with the squits and projectile vomit  :o :o :o

I'm not one for "Bad Karma" but didn't Charlie's missus HRHorse Camila name her and the bottle didn't break.......
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on December 30, 2007, 08:50:35 pm
Quote
More to the point it is the EU which will not allow large vessels to built in the UK - it is not policy apparently.

That's a new one on me LB, where did you get that from? The QM2 was built in France but I understand that there was a UK bid which lost out on cost grounds. I'd have thought that the only influence that the EU could exercise would be to stop any UK Government subsidy. Surely they can't stop a purely commercial bid to build ships in the UK?
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on December 30, 2007, 10:40:13 pm
Quote
More to the point it is the EU which will not allow large vessels to built in the UK - it is not policy apparently.

That's a new one on me LB, where did you get that from? The QM2 was built in France but I understand that there was a UK bid which lost out on cost grounds. I'd have thought that the only influence that the EU could exercise would be to stop any UK Government subsidy. Surely they can't stop a purely commercial bid to build ships in the UK?

That's certainly news to me and I've worked in the European cruise ship building industry for a number of years now.  As far as I am concerned we no longer have either the capacity or the expertise to build such vessels and the only reason the Italians are able to is because thier yards have been subsidised for a number of years now.  They have been trying to privatise them for some time but remain unable to attract an outside buyer.

Interestingly enough the French yard that built the QM2 has since closed.  The best European yards though remain the Finnish and the German, not surprisingly both countries put a great deal of emphasis on engineering and manufacturing and careers in those areas are encouraged as opposed to looked down on as they seem to be in the UK.

Our manufacturing industry in the UK is in the state it is as a result of lack of government support going back as far as the start of the Thatcher reign.  Since that time we haven't had a Labour government anyway and all industry has been made to fend for itself in a global market competing against cheap foreign labour and subsidised European industries. 

Since the start of Thatcherism no government has had the balls to increase taxes to generate the income required to be able to support public services and nationalised industries and we continue to pander to personal requirements of more money in our pockets at the expense of our manufacturing base.  We will soon be following the United States in thier slow economic decline and thier increasing inability to manufacture anything of thier own and are going to become increasingly dependant on the likes of China and India to manufacture all the worlds goods.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 07, 2008, 10:50:55 pm
There is a photo in the February 2008 issue of Model Boats which demonstrates clearly that the QE2 has and hasn't got a sheer! The amidships section is flat but the bow and stern sections angle up from that which is in line with the published constructional information. There is no continuous curve as the exterior paint lines suggest, it's just a clever illusion. looks OK though!
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 08, 2008, 05:54:44 pm
I know what you mean Colin and I'm sure that stood at the end of one of the inboard corridors the effect is fairly indistinguishable between a sheer and a simple upwards angle at the ends.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Ghost in the shell on February 11, 2008, 11:13:27 pm
to be honest I actually think the QV is actually attractive.  they should have use the design for the QV on the QM2 :)

sorry guys!
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: andygh on February 11, 2008, 11:49:18 pm
QV looks fat and ungraceful to me  :-\, QEII always looks like it cuts through the water like a knife
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 12, 2008, 09:20:51 am
I think Bunkerbarge has explained why modern ships look they way they do. A quote from the Berlitz Cruising Guide:

"Will cruise ships ever look like ships again? No, simply because the economies of scale dictate that into the space provided must be squeezed as many bodies as possible - so square is better than round."

Bigger ships are also more economic as you get more internal volume for the external dimensions and of course the size of the non hotel services element of the crew, the officers, seamen and Bunkerbarges etc. remains relatively static.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: andygh on February 12, 2008, 12:15:25 pm
Yes but knowing why she looks that way doesn't improve her looks  :(
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 12, 2008, 05:13:09 pm
yer and she don't sail well either. oh the joy of progress. Bring back concord and keep QE2 going . They made things right in the sixties.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: andygh on February 12, 2008, 05:23:13 pm
Quote
They made things right in the sixties.

That's exactly what I keep telling my missus  :D
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: The long Build on February 12, 2008, 06:13:51 pm
I think Bunkerbarge has explained why modern ships look they way they do. A quote from the Berlitz Cruising Guide:"Will cruise ships ever look like ships again? No, simply because the economies of scale dictate that into the space provided must be squeezed as many bodies as possible - so square is better than round."

This is all well and good but if news gets around that it is not an enjoyable ship to cruise on, the number of rooms she has is irrelevant, as people will not book.  I imagine a lot of business would be repeat business then the designers have shot themselves in the foot.
If you buy a naff product, do you buy it again ?   ... Unlikely...same applies.

My opinion anyway..
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 12, 2008, 06:20:52 pm
Actually I think that the QV is probably a very good ship indeed to cruise on if you prefer the bigger ships - but I mean cruise. The recent adverse comments about her seakeeping relate to the winter transatlantic crossing. It is doubtful if any modern cruise ship would have performed any better in the circumstances. You need a ship designed for the job such as the QE2 or QM2. I really do wonder why Cunard are touting her as a transatlantic ship when she is nothing of the sort.

QV looks better than most standard cruise ships because of her Cunard paint job although the cost of the increased air conditioning resulting from the black hull is probably reflected in the ticket price. They don't paint most cruise ships white just because it looks nice!
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 12, 2008, 08:17:06 pm
I think Bunkerbarge has explained why modern ships look they way they do. A quote from the Berlitz Cruising Guide:"Will cruise ships ever look like ships again? No, simply because the economies of scale dictate that into the space provided must be squeezed as many bodies as possible - so square is better than round."

This is all well and good but if news gets around that it is not an enjoyable ship to cruise on, the number of rooms she has is irrelevant, as people will not book.  I imagine a lot of business would be repeat business then the designers have shot themselves in the foot.
If you buy a naff product, do you buy it again ?   ... Unlikely...same applies.

My opinion anyway..


Well time will tell. As QE2 had a die hard loyal customer base that kept comming back to QE2. One lady i talked to said it was her 45 time on QE2 thats more than one visit a year. She all so said had been on QM2 once and was unsure and DID NOT evenly want to go on QV as the lady said she not a true Cunard ship. Theadore Scull said in one of his talks on QE2. When QE2 is gone IL have to find a ship, i like QM2 but i don't love her. And it these die hard passengers that Cunard are indanger of losing if they try and pass a cruse ship off as liner.

john
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 12, 2008, 08:27:15 pm
Well, I would agree that Queen Victoria is primarily a marketing exercise as far as Cundard is concerned but that doesn't mean you won't have a good time - unless "Winter North Atlantic"!
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 12, 2008, 08:46:19 pm
or any choppy water.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: herrmill on February 15, 2008, 05:40:43 am
IMHO, they all now appear to look like nothing but condos built atop a car carrier hull. 

I, too, hate to see QE2 be replaced by these new designs, but alas, we don't own the lines.  Just like every liner before her, they're built for one thing: to make money for the company shareholders & not the maritime enthusiasts who bemoan the fact that cruise ships all look like a block of flats. 

Not to get on a new tangent, but whatever became of that fanciful idea from some dreamer to recreate a modern day Titanic?  I remember coming across a website back when the movie took the world a few years back?   I actually thought someone was smoking something then but never ran down what became of that hairbrained idea. 

Chuck
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 15, 2008, 08:52:03 am
Looks like it sunk without a trace!  ;)

Yes, I remember seeing something too but it was a while ago.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: KitS on February 17, 2008, 10:22:01 am
One big difference between QE2 and her succesors is, or was, the apparent height of her funnel.

As built she had this waaaaay tall sail of a very elegant funnel that towered over the ship, and which was subsequently shortened I think, but don't know why. The later ships, being quite a bit larger, but still having to fit under the Verrazano (sp?) Narrows Bridge, have similar height funnels overall, but they look squatter because the hull and superstructure is taller.

It's all a matter of comparison.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 17, 2008, 10:55:17 am
The QE2's funnel was modified when the ship was re engined from steam turbine to diesel electric in 1986/87. The new funnel is a slightly different design but I'm told it is the same height as the original.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 17, 2008, 06:23:03 pm
hi Colin  yes it is the same height. They reused the side bits but put in a new middle section to take the 9 diesel exhausts. hence all the dents

john
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 17, 2008, 06:39:51 pm
A couple of interesting points to follow up on here.  The first is that although I also feel the dissapointment of the loss of our enginering heritage of the 60's we have to move on.

Concorde, the E-Type Jag, the Triumph Bonneville and the QE2 were all years ahead of thier time as far as thier engineering goes but they were all designed in a time when fuel consumption wasn't an issue and emmissions were not even considered.  The QE2 uses fuel at a horrendous rate, even in her Diesel Electric configuration, as did the Concorde and the E-Type.

Are we not supposed to be thinking a bit more responsibly about these things nowadays?  Isn't it up to us to design machinery that uses fuel more efficiently and harms the environment considerably less and does less harm to the lagacy we leave our children etc..etc..?  The Queen Victoria is a world apart as regards fuel efficiency and environnmental impact and so she should be.  As for looks change is always a difficult one to get to grips with.  No-one liked the QE2 when she was shown to the world because she was too futuristic for a traditional liner.  Now every one seems to think she is beautiful. ::)

As for sailing on the Queen Victoria, I have a cruise booked on her in May and I have no doubt whatsoever that she will be a superb ship to cruise on and I will thoroughly enjoy it.

An interesting point about loyal followers needs putting into perspective a bit as well.  Passengers nowadays are getting more and more demanding as they know what is available and what they expect to pay for it.  The fuel for the QE2 continues to demand a high ticket price but just look at how she compares.  Sea water in the toilets as opposed to fresh water, sea water in the pools as opposed to fresh water, very few cabins with a balcony as opposed to the majority with a balcony, air conditioning that struggles to mantain temperatures as opposed to the latest in comfort control, traditional trans Atlantic hull giving a very fast passage but not the best in transverse stability as opposed to the latest in stabiliser technology.  The list goes on and on and the loyal passenger base who are prepared to continue to put up with these things for the sake of saying they have sailed on her is fast diminishing.

Then look at her from the owners point of view, fuel costs, maintenance costs soaring, totally inadequate thrusters requiring the use of tugs regularly, increasing costs involved with meeting the latest regulatory requirements.

Unfortunately love or hate her, and trust me, I love her to bits, but the QE2 has long since had her day.  I am so glad that she is being given the chance to retire gracefully and continue to demonstrate to the world what Britain was cabale of producing in those days but we now have to look to new ships in an ever changing and ever more demanding world.

By the way Colin I once saw the results of an air conditioning survey of an 83,000 ton cruise ship that stated the ship had an increased demand on it's domestic power requirements of 12% for purely having a dark hull.  That's a good few million in fuel a year!

The new funnel of the QE2 is actually pretty much the same height and the outside plate work was reused with an increased section of plates added to the width to give the new funnel.  It was quite simply required to accomodate nine engine exhausts as opposed to the three boilers originally fitted.

This link below is actually quite an interesting read, especially when you project fuel costs of that time into todays prices.  Fuel nowadays cost anywhere between $450-500.00 per ton.  Re-engining her equates to a saving today of $100-125,000.00 at 28 knots, per day!!

http://www.roblightbody.com/liners/qe-2/1987_Refit/index.htm
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 17, 2008, 06:59:14 pm
bunkerbarge as sad as it is you have hit the nail on the head. The only thing i would differ on is we got a far better and smother ride and it would have been even better if we had been doing 28 knots in stead of 19 to 20 knots that what QV got
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 17, 2008, 07:11:15 pm
Bunkerbarge is perfectly right in terms of the technology. Just imagine what it must have been like in the 1930's, travelling through the tropics on one of those lovely looking old P&O or Orient liners with no air conditioning. Pretty uncomfortable, particularly in the Red Sea. The term POSH (Port Out, Starboard Home) to keep the sun op the other side of the ship to your cabin wasn't coined for nothing!

While I appreciate all the points made in favour of the latest ships, I just do feel that a bit more effort could have been made with the external aesthetics if the bean counters had relaxed the purse strings a little. For some ships, "floating house brick" would be too kind a description although the paint job on the Cunarders does mitigate things a bit. QM2 would look a lot better if the funnel was in proportion to the rest of the ship, but then they wouldn't have been able to dock it in New York.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 17, 2008, 07:13:01 pm
bunkerbarge as sad as it is you have hit the nail on the head. The only thing i would differ on is we got a far better and smother ride and it would have been even better if we had been doing 28 knots in stead of 19 to 20 knots that what QV got



All depends of course on sea conditions, wind direction, and speed at the time.  The Queen Vic, as Colin quite rightly says, is not a liner so she shouldn't really be put onto a liner run but I suspect that the publicity factor of having the three queens together was too much of an opportunity to miss.

Hopefull they will be a bit more realistic in her scheduling in future.  I have also, of course, been on the QE2 and enjoyed some pretty fresh weather.  She was going through it superbly but rocking from side to side quite a bit.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 17, 2008, 07:16:23 pm
Bunkerbarge is perfectly right in terms of the technology. Just imagine what it must have been like in the 1930's, travelling through the tropics on one of those lovely looking old P&O or Orient liners with no air conditioning. Pretty uncomfortable, particularly in the Red Sea. The term POSH (Port Out, Starboard Home) to keep the sun op the other side of the ship to your cabin wasn't coined for nothing!

While I appreciate all the points made in favour of the latest ships, I just do feel that a bit more effort could have been made with the external aesthetics if the bean counters had relaxed the purse strings a little. For some ships, "floating house brick" would be too kind a description although the paint job on the Cunarders does mitigate things a bit. QM2 would look a lot better if the funnel was in proportion to the rest of the ship, but then they wouldn't have been able to dock it in New York.

Unfortunately a lot of the "brick' shape is dictated by the fact that nowadays everyone wants a balcony and ships that don't have enough loose out to those that can supply them.  This is such a demand nowadays that such ships as the Explorer Class from RCI have internal balconies that overlook the shopping arcade just to maximise the cabin arrangements.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: andygh on February 17, 2008, 09:12:11 pm
Quote
Concorde, the E-Type Jag, the Triumph Bonneville and the QE2 were all years ahead of thier time as far as thier engineering goes but they were all designed in a time when fuel consumption wasn't an issue and emmissions were not even considered.  The QE2 uses fuel at a horrendous rate, even in her Diesel Electric configuration, as did the Concorde and the E-Type.

All perfectly correct, apart from the Bonnie :'(
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: KitS on February 17, 2008, 09:43:19 pm
Concorde, the E-Type Jag, the Triumph Bonneville and the QE2 were all years ahead of thier time as far as thier engineering goes but they were all designed in a time when fuel consumption wasn't an issue and emmissions were not even considered.  

And you can add the Advanced Passenger Train to that list as well.

The original APT-E used gas turbines that used more fuel at idle than it did at 120 mph! The '70s fuel crisis knocked the turbine power idea right on the head (not to mention the non-availability of a sensible rated turbine...) which resulted, after a LONG time, in the 25kV electric APT-P. By then the market had moved on and cheap airline flights were almost upon us.

Re the QE2's funnel, thanks for posting the reason for the modification, at last I know why they did it.

I still think it looks more elegant than the QM's or the QV's though  :)
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: andygh on February 17, 2008, 09:58:05 pm
I can clearly recall watching the APT whizzing along the the track at the bottom of my school playing fields as I sat in the classroom struggling with my french lessons, circa 1975
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 17, 2008, 10:31:09 pm
Concorde, the E-Type Jag, the Triumph Bonneville and the QE2 were all years ahead of thier time as far as thier engineering goes but they were all designed in a time when fuel consumption wasn't an issue and emmissions were not even considered. 

And you can add the Advanced Passenger Train to that list as well.

The original APT-E used gas turbines that used more fuel at idle than it did at 120 mph! The '70s fuel crisis knocked the turbine power idea right on the head (not to mention the non-availability of a sensible rated turbine...) which resulted, after a LONG time, in the 25kV electric APT-P. By then the market had moved on and cheap airline flights were almost upon us.

Re the QE2's funnel, thanks for posting the reason for the modification, at last I know why they did it.

I still think it looks more elegant than the QM's or the QV's though  :)

for QM2 to get her funnel to look right they reckon it needs to be all most twice the height as it is now. Since she as only 4 foot i think clearnce between the bottom of the bridge over new york bay and the top of her funnel they could not make it look wright hence the squate look.

john
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: KitS on February 18, 2008, 07:31:55 am
Andy,

I can clearly recall watching the APT whizzing along the the track at the bottom of my school playing fields as I sat in the classroom struggling with my french lessons, circa 1975

That means you were at school either in the Notts-Leics area, or possibly somewhere along the Midland Main Line to London. An outside chance would put you in Berks or Wilts in the Summer of '75. In any of those cases there was an extremely good chance that I was on board as the APT-E hardly went anywhere without me!  :)
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: andygh on February 18, 2008, 04:47:56 pm
I was at school in Wigston, just south of Leicester. I have a feeling that watching those trains was a big influence in starting my modelling career, railway models at first obviously
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Bryan Young on February 18, 2008, 07:23:36 pm
Concorde, the E-Type Jag, the Triumph Bonneville and the QE2 were all years ahead of thier time as far as thier engineering goes but they were all designed in a time when fuel consumption wasn't an issue and emmissions were not even considered.  

And you can add the Advanced Passenger Train to that list as well.

The original APT-E used gas turbines that used more fuel at idle than it did at 120 mph! The '70s fuel crisis knocked the turbine power idea right on the head (not to mention the non-availability of a sensible rated turbine...) which resulted, after a LONG time, in the 25kV electric APT-P. By then the market had moved on and cheap airline flights were almost upon us.

Re the QE2's funnel, thanks for posting the reason for the modification, at last I know why they did it.

I still think it looks more elegant than the QM's or the QV's though  :)
Surprised no-one has mentioned the TSR2.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: KitS on February 18, 2008, 10:40:58 pm
Andy,

Cor Wigston Junction!  :)

That was one of our test case curves for the 1 hr London-Leicester tests. I spent quite some time out there trying to work out why our intstrumentation on the track didn't work. Turned out some rodents had found the cables to be rather tasty and had bitten large chunks out of them!

Bryan,

I agree about the TSR2 being ahead of its time, but it was shot down by damn silly politicians rather than the fuel crisis. It could probably even be seen as more economical than it's heavyweight compatriot, the Vulcan, as it only had half the number of engines.  :)

Yes, OK, so they were afterburning Olynpuses (Olympii?) rather than the Vulcans 301s but a similar core engine.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on February 19, 2008, 10:53:45 am


I'll let you know how she rides on 18th April when we dock in Southampton after 53 days on board, we leave Sydney on 25th February. Cunard are promoting the "Royal Rendezvous" in Sydney quite strongly, as the QE2 and QV pass each other on Sunday 24th February in Sydney Harbour. Huge traffic jams are expected as Sydneysiders flock to vantage points to witness the occasion.
Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 22, 2008, 11:51:02 pm
hi peter . as i have just been on her i am sure you will have a great time. I wish i could do the panama canal section.  O0    Watch out for the book shop to many nice and must souvenirs in there i could have spent thousands in there mmm ;D.

john
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on February 23, 2008, 12:02:59 am
Hi John,

Glad to hear you enjoyed your time on QE2, we are really looking forward to it, and we don't have long to wait as she arrives in Sydney tomorrow morning (Sunday 24th) our time. The Panama Canal should be great, and I believe the transit is in daylight too.

The Queen Victoria arrived this morning and was all over the early TV news. I must say that from the outside she looks as if she is built from Lego blocks, but the shots we saw of the interior look absolutely magnificent. We are going to try and see them both tomorrow, but I think half of Sydney will be doing the same thing, so it could be interesting.

Which voyage did you do?

Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 23, 2008, 12:11:10 am
southampton to New york in tandem with QV and she was about 300m at most of our side all the way and then meet QM2 in new york.
Recommend the spa $15 a day but worth it. Qv is lovely on the inside but not so nice on the out side. Hope full will be down near southampton to see QE2 arrive if i am there i will wave.   all the best. bon voyage!  O0

john
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on February 23, 2008, 12:15:23 am
I'll keep an eye out for you, John. You'll be able to spot me easily, I'll be the one on deck waving with an Aussie accent  {-) {-).
Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cos918 on February 23, 2008, 12:18:21 am
well have fun and bring that decent aussie weather SUN
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on February 23, 2008, 12:24:25 am
I'll pack some sunshine in our bags, but I was relying on the locals to provide lots of it ;)
Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on February 24, 2008, 06:00:33 am
We went into the city (Sydney) today to see the QV at the Overseas Passenger Terminal, Circular Quay, along with a large proportion of Sydney's residents. Attached are a couple of shots taken from near the Opera House on a beautiful sunny day. While we were there, the Sun Princess passed under the Sydney Harbour Bridge, on her way to her berth at Wharf 8. The QE2 was there as well, but not visible, apart from the top of her funnel. The QV leaves this evening at 6.30pm, passing the QE2 which takes QV's place at the OPT. We are boarding QE2 tomorrow at 2.30pm.
I think the QV looks better "in the flesh (steel)" than it does in photos.
Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 24, 2008, 03:30:31 pm
Some nice pictures of QE2 and QV on the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/asia_pac_ships_in_royal_rendezvous/html/1.stm

Beauty and the Beast!
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Bryan Young on February 24, 2008, 04:36:36 pm
Hi John,

Glad to hear you enjoyed your time on QE2, we are really looking forward to it, and we don't have long to wait as she arrives in Sydney tomorrow morning (Sunday 24th) our time. The Panama Canal should be great, and I believe the transit is in daylight too.

The Queen Victoria arrived this morning and was all over the early TV news. I must say that from the outside she looks as if she is built from Lego blocks, but the shots we saw of the interior look absolutely magnificent. We are going to try and see them both tomorrow, but I think half of Sydney will be doing the same thing, so it could be interesting.

Which voyage did you do?

Peter.
In a way it is a bit sad that you are not doing both a day and a night transit. The underwater lights in the canal are magical. But hope you enjoy the debauchery anyway. BY.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on February 24, 2008, 09:16:57 pm
Thanks Bryan, I'm sure we will. I didn't realise that there were underwater lights in the canal.
Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Peter Fitness on February 24, 2008, 09:26:43 pm
Some excellent shots, Colin. Perhaps I'm biased, (I grew up in Sydney) but Sydney Harbour is absolutely magnificent, especially on a sunny day, as it was yesterday. The "Royal Rendezvous" received plenty of TV coverage here - Sydneysiders love the big ships, and there will be plenty of them here over the next month or so as the cruising season is in full swing.
Peter.
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cbr900 on February 25, 2008, 11:39:59 am
The Capital of the State I live in is called Hobart, on saturday there were three cruise ships there for the day, what chaos 8500 let loose for the day.....................


Roy
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cdsc123 on May 18, 2008, 06:43:03 pm
At Gibraltar yesterday;
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 18, 2008, 07:03:19 pm
You can clearly see the mark where she hit the quay in Malta earlier in the week. Quite a bit of P40 needed there....
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: cdsc123 on May 18, 2008, 09:13:13 pm
The temporary repair was made almost as you say;
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080515/local/queen-victoria-bumps-into-pinto-wharf  :)
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: nhp651 on May 18, 2008, 09:50:35 pm
I was lead to believe that all of these new breed of ships now had satelite gps docking systems that are supposed to dock these ships to the nearest inch and as such eleviate such cock ups!
MMMMH. think I'll cancel my round the world cruise on her in the morning, lol. :o :D {-)
Title: Re: The New Queen Victoria - Have they made a mess or not
Post by: dougal99 on May 19, 2008, 08:17:25 pm
Ah yes but if someone moves the dock...     :embarrassed: :embarrassed: