Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Shipmate60 on February 11, 2008, 10:00:27 pm

Title: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 11, 2008, 10:00:27 pm
As above,
I popped in to my local model shop today, they had just sold an Imara and Cruiser tugs, with radio, ready to go, for £300-00 each.
That wont even cover the original price of the bare kit.
MADNESS

Bob
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 11, 2008, 10:03:31 pm
I got £1,200 for my Imara back in 1992! It was a new kit then though.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Stavros on February 11, 2008, 10:57:13 pm
It seems to me that Model shop could not care less what they get for a model all they are interested is PROFIT OR THEIR CUT.I was in a Model shop down south not so long ago,Essex Sussex area's and I was shocked how LOW the Model shops were asking for supposedly their customers models.
We spend hours building them and these so called model shops try to buy these models at rock bottom prices knowing dammed well how much you have spent in the shop,only to sell for a SMALL profit just to make a fast buck.personally I would NEVER buy a secondhand model from a shop for th simple reason that some poor sod has been ripped off by them >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(


Stavros
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bryan Young on February 11, 2008, 11:17:50 pm
It seems to me that Model shop could not care less what they get for a model all they are interested is PROFIT OR THEIR CUT.I was in a Model shop down south not so long ago,Essex Sussex area's and I was shocked how LOW the Model shops were asking for supposedly their customers models.
We spend hours building them and these so called model shops try to buy these models at rock bottom prices knowing dammed well how much you have spent in the shop,only to sell for a SMALL profit just to make a fast buck.personally I would NEVER buy a secondhand model from a shop for th simple reason that some poor sod has been ripped off by them >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(


Stavros

But then again Stavros, you are probably talking about kits. Some are put together well and others are just chucked together. Same goes for scratch models I suppose, but like you, I would never dream of selling any of mine to a "Model Shop"....or on e-bay...or anywhere come to think of it! (Apart from my "Mount Washington" sidewheeler that isn't going to sail no more).
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 11, 2008, 11:20:57 pm
I think the problem is that second hand models are built to a very individual taste and often does not appeal to a great number of people other than the builder.

Models are very personal in thier construction, painting, standards, detail etc and I think that most people who buy a second hand model have every intentions of making it thier own by doing further modifications to it.  Unfortunately the number of hours that go into a model has no reflection on it's second hand value, neither does the equipment that has been fitted.  

Not every one wants a noise system, rotating radars or even the particular motor as these are all again down to personal taste.

I think we have to be fair here as well in so far as the model shops haven't stolen these boats the owner was obviously happy to sell it to them in the first place or it may have been a relative glad to be able to get some return for a deceased partners garage full of gear that they would have no idea what to do with.

Maybe the Imara and the Cruiser went to good deserving homes and will be looked after by someone who would not have otherwise been able to own such a model.  I understand that models going so cheaply appears sad but there may be a positive side to it! I certainly don't think it is quite so cut and dried that a model shop is ripping someone off and I actually know of one who sold items from an estate for a lady who had no idea what to do with them but she wanted them to be enjoyed by someone else.  The model shop took nothing from the transaction.

Then again maybe they will not value them and will abuse them until they are wrecked, who knows.  
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Ghost in the shell on February 11, 2008, 11:24:19 pm
I wouldn't sell mine anyway, definately NOT on ebay.

Brian, whats wrong with the mt washington, why wont it sail anymore?
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 11, 2008, 11:33:33 pm
I myself probably am a good example.  My wife said to me one day "What on earth am I going to do with all this stuff if you go first?"

Good point, what will she do with it?  It is of no use or value to her so maybe it would be enough for her to know that it has gone to a home where someone may get enjoyment out of it.  Maybe a model shop would be a good place to help her out.

By the way my answer was "Who cares, I won't!!" ::)
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 11, 2008, 11:40:43 pm
The model shop is actually quite well respected and 2 of the assistants are modellers themselves.
It isn't a question of ripping people off, the shop buys the model for what the owner wants to sell it for.
Yes they make a profit, but wasn't there a thread recently about model shops closing, if they don't make a profit they WILL close.
The usual rule of thumb for a built model is the price of the kit, unless it is very well built.
I was just amazed at how cheap these well known models went for.
I wouldn't sell my Imara for £300.
So much for all the time and effort and cash for motors ESC's etc.
I sell my models on as I just don't see the point of having a model that wont be sailed, or have the room for that matter.
I am down to my last 6 completed models, with another 7 waiting to be built.
I cant justify having that many just sitting round doing nothing.

Bob
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Stavros on February 11, 2008, 11:42:24 pm
Bunkerbarge are you planning on leaving us if you are please donate  all your models to be auctioned on Mayhem O0 {-)


Stavros
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: cos918 on February 11, 2008, 11:57:44 pm
hi all. you say how low second hand models are. Well as i help in my local model shop there is this to concider. 1 they are a business and not a Charity shop. your boat might have owe you more than £1000 but it like this. A boat over say £400 to £500 might site on a shelf for fair bit of time. So the shop keeper has money tied up in that item of stock if he put that amount of money in to a bank he get intrest on it. So it is in the shop keeper best intrest to turn the second hand boat round fast, to do this he has to appell to the widest possible crowed he can, and to do that he has to keep the price down as low as he can. Hence you dont get a lot for you boat. Would you expect to get what you payed back for a car.
john

Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 12, 2008, 01:05:01 am
Bunkerbarge are you planning on leaving us if you are please donate  all your models to be auctioned on Mayhem O0 {-)


Stavros

I'll mention it to the missis! O0
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: bigford on February 12, 2008, 03:00:04 am
i seen a guy buy a tamiya clod buster truck  for $300+ u.s.d   at my friends hobby shop
and a few weeks later i seen him selll it back to the hobby shop for $150. u.s.d.   
he needed the money. the guy built the truck  and ran it a few times  still in mint shape :'(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Roger in France on February 12, 2008, 06:55:18 am
I think rushing in and roundly condemning all model shops is another example of the immoderate and ill conceived personal point of view which helps few if anyone.

In my experience, some model shops sell second hand models on behalf of the owner, taking only a modest fee for the service, if any at all. They advise the seller what price it is reasonable to ask but leave the final decision to the seller.

Others will conduct their business differently. For example, I cannot imagine one would get a very good price from those who specifically advertise for used models because if that is their main business they must have to be able to command a significant profit.

Roger in France.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 12, 2008, 09:07:58 am
Ultimately the model is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. It also depends which market you put it in as well. Many of the boats you see in model shops are kits, sometimes rather indifferently made, and essentially they are just secondhand used items with no exclusiveness so they won't command very high prices. On the other hand, if Bryan were to put his completed General Havelock into a Christies specialist Maritime Auction there is a decent chance he would get a pretty good price for it because it is scratch built to a high quality, unique and the right sort of buyers would be looking at it.

Interestingly, a sort of marine antiques shop has just opened in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard where the artists market used to be. Apart from the usual old furniture and pictures, they have quite a bit of nautical memorobilia such as ashtrays, menucards and other items from bygone ships. They also have quite a few models, the quality of which varies from OK to truly awful although the prices asked don't seem to reflect this! Worth a look though, if you are down that way although I doubt if you'd consider buying anything.

And I agree with Roger, I don't think model shops are on the make in this respect. The stuff I've seen in one well known East Sussex shop seems to have been priced pretty realistically to me. Nobody ever got rich making model boats. If you get enough back to help fund the next one you are doing well.

Colin
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 12, 2008, 09:52:45 am
The other aspect of this is the word "hobby". To me, that equates with "spending money on a pastime that I enjoy, but don't get a net financial gain from."

If someone loves building, over owning and sailing, then getting some return on their investment by selling their completed model through a model shop isn't such a bad thing.

I'd personally never do it - the amount of time I've invested on my current build would automatically mean it's never going to sell for a fair reflection of the work involved, and who knows what sort of home it'd go to?!  ;)

Andy
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Welsh_Druid on February 12, 2008, 09:54:44 am
I find myself asking the question "what do we build these models for "  - in the expectation that we will be able to sell them at a profit ?  -  or just because we enjoy it ?

Building and sailing boat models (and building and flying slope soaring model gliders) is my hobby, entertainment, relaxation.  

Other people do other things, going to the theatre, drinking in the pub, smoking cigarettes, working on their garden, driving around the countryside and so on.

But the one thing that all these have in common is that they cost money, give pleasure to the individual at the time but none of the expense can be recouped when the activity is finished.

So why should we expect to have our pleasure and then expect someone else to pay for it ( for that is what you are doing if you expect a high price for your now unwanted model).

I dont sell my models on - maybe I am not sure that others would think them built well enough - I dont know, but  with my modelling I am getting pleasure, I expect to pay for it and do not expect to recoup any of  the costs afterwards.

Don B.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Welsh_Druid on February 12, 2008, 10:23:15 am

I am down to my last 6 completed models, with another 7 waiting to be built.
I cant justify having that many just sitting round doing nothing.

Bob

This is slightly of topic - sorry.

Back in the middle 70's  my gliding partner and I went to buy a (full size) Sailplane off a chap. He wanted £12,000 for it - a LOT of money in those days - but it was a very high performance one and that was what we wanted.   Whilst talking it emerged that not only did he own this Sailplane but that he had another (even more costly) for himself, a half share in a two seater and a power plane.

My wife said to him " how can you justify all that expense just for a hobby" ? 

He put his arm round her shoulders and said " My Dear - one should never put a limit on ones self indulgence"

 O0

Don B.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: bogstandard on February 12, 2008, 02:25:07 pm
Quote
So why should we expect to have our pleasure and then expect someone else to pay for it ( for that is what you are doing if you expect a high price for your now unwanted model).

This sort of quote really annoys me. It is the mental attitude of a lot of model boaters nowadays. They want everything for nothing.

I advertised a lot of model boat stuff a few months back, and the people who came to see me and purchased, got a lot more than what they paid for, didn't we Stav. Unfortunately I still have two rather expensive boats left, never to be finished or sailed again, purely because the cost of building them with all the interior electronics cost far more than I put them up for sale for.
Am I not supposed to try and recoup some of my losses because I cannot build them any more, or sell them to someone who thinks I should give them away because I have had a bit of pleasure out of making them.
I build my boats with quality in mind and to last, and there are many of them in careful hands being enjoyed by people over twenty years after I have made them. Personally I would rather put them into the loft and let them rot away rather than be forced into letting them go for a pittance. In fact in a couple of months I am redoing all my workshop, so if they don't go, they will be put up in the loft until I snuff it, then they will most probably end up down the local tip.
Yet these sort of people will buy off the wheelie bin shop (sorry ebay), and are surprised when they get a bagful of garbage that takes more money to put right than the original kit cost.
I don't think that £650 for a part built kit that has WELL over £1000 invested in it is a bad buy, and even at that stage it has more time invested because of the special anchor winch that I have manufactured and slomo units that have been put into it. Again bits not found on ordinary models. All the hard work and research has been done, just cosmetic from now on.

Very sorry gents, you want quality, you got to pay for it. You want junk and hassle, go buy it from elsewhere, you will soon have a big enough collection of junk to burn on bonfire night (or pass on to some other gullible person after a BARGAIN on ebay).

Just don't think that all modellers make junk. Some of us do care how we build them, and we would not think of overcharging for our time and expertise.

John
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: sheerline on February 12, 2008, 03:21:40 pm
I am always amazed at how little people expect to pay for a second hand model. Take for instance the chap who spends £600 odd quid for a submarne kit, he fits it out with radio etc then makes a superb job of painting and finishing it. After a year or so of looking after his pride and joy he thinks about selling it on but then comes the big question... how much is it worth? Now this may be a superbly finished and working boat, nicely fitted out and everything ship shape but the expectations of the potential buyer is that he will in no way pay anything like the outlay price on the part of the owner because he has been buying cheap cr-p for years and seen a lot of it in his time. So the seller has to drop his price to an unrealistically low figure to move it and the buyer has a grin all over his face as he loads it into his car.
If you don't desperately need to get rid of a good model, don't drop your price.  If we all did it, it would leave just the rubbish out there and perhaps potential buyers would eventually realise what real value there is in a beautifully finished, fully working and ready to go model. If someone thinks your having a bit of a laugh with your price, the simple answer is tell them to go buy a kit and radio gear then build one for themselves. The only reason they want yours is to save themselves time and money... and effort... and maybe they just don't have the skills.
Lets face it, if they commisioned someone to build and fit out their own kit.... they would get the shock of their lives! 
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: westcoaster on February 12, 2008, 03:48:19 pm
Isn't the issue here the fact that the models are second hand.
Ever bought a brand new car then decided it wasn't the one for you after a few weeks and not many miles later.
Did the dealer offer you anything near the price you paid to take it back as a trade in.  No??  I rest my case.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 12, 2008, 04:26:19 pm
Westcoaster
Your theory just doesn't hold water.
One reason a car loses money is very simple VAT. VAT is payable on a new car, not on a second hand one, so expect to lose 17.5% just by signing the log book.
Up until now a fully operational model would be expected to be sold for the price of the kit, or thereabouts for a run of the mill model.
As for example the Imara for £300.
The kit is over £450
Motors, ESC's etc another £100
Radio set £100
so far we have £1050 EXCLUDING paints, glues etc and TIME.
As it is a hobby I don't include time as has been said previously it is my hobby.

The only way I could afford to get back into this hobby a good few years ago was to buy second hand, refurbish them, use them then sell them.
I just cant count the number of models that I have made/refurbished, well over 100 in over 30 yrs.
I don't physically have the room to keep them all or the desire to maintain them.
In the past I have given some away to lads who couldn't afford to buy their own.

The models I have waiting to be built are all kits, but there are also a few scratch built ones that I want to build.
I have been selling models recently as I consider that I have too many to sail and use so am down to the numbers stated.
To me it just seems a shame to have perfectly good operational models sitting in my garage loft.

Bob
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: sheerline on February 12, 2008, 04:55:56 pm
When a 'model' is in kit form it isn't really a model of a boat until it is built... a bit like an unbuilt 'car' on an assembly line...it's not a car until it is built so taking this logic further, if a chap builds a kit into a beautiful model boat and doesn't use it, surely this is a 'new' boat and as it's now built, isn't it worth more than the kit? Obviously not in the eyes of most potential buyers.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: westcoaster on February 12, 2008, 05:26:11 pm
Shipmate60, you are completely entitled to disagree with me, but please, not on the basis of totally inaccurate statements. VAT is payable on second hand cars so that is one theory of yours that doesn't hold water.
Best Wishes
Douglas
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: meechingman on February 12, 2008, 05:34:08 pm
I think you'll find that, after much argument when VAT first came in, a few trades like the car sales business and my own field at the time, electronic organ sales, were made special cases.

VAT was paid not on the entire value of the second hand car or organ, but only on the profit margin that the dealer had made on it. After all, the dealer could not reclaim any VAT from what he had effectively paid the customer for his trade in. All sorts of funny deals were (and probably still are) done to legally avoid VAT. I doubt if things have changed.

If I'm way out of date on this for cars, let me know, but I know that's how it still is for organs etc!

Andy
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bryan Young on February 12, 2008, 06:18:46 pm
I wouldn't sell mine anyway, definately NOT on ebay.

Brian, whats wrong with the mt washington, why wont it sail anymore?
Nothing wrong with the model...as a model. (Pictures elsewhere on the forum). I had never built a paddler before and ignorantly assumed it would be like my usual ships but with wheels on the side. Wrong. What started out as an exercise in building a wooden framed beam engine quickly became a "building the whole ship" project. She is at 1:48 scale making it about 40" long. The hull is only around 7" wide but 14" across the paddles. The centre of the paddles is about 3" to 4" above the waterline. Begin to see my problem? Balance! I even cut the hull and deepened it, that sort of cured the balance problem but put the afterdeck just about underwater. I spent DAYS cutting out the paddle wheels in brass. Too heavy, but works of art, even if I say so myself! The beam engine looks fine. But as I don't really know how to correct all my (stupid) mistakes....she has to go. I guess we all have at least one failure, and this is mine. Someone better versed than me can probably get it to work properly, but there she sits, forelorn. Sob. BY.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 12, 2008, 06:29:05 pm
Probably perfectly OK if viewed as a static model Bryan.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 12, 2008, 06:33:55 pm
Isn't the issue here the fact that the models are second hand.
Ever bought a brand new car then decided it wasn't the one for you after a few weeks and not many miles later.
Did the dealer offer you anything near the price you paid to take it back as a trade in.  No??  I rest my case.

I'm sorry but I can't see the comparisson between an item purchased as made by a manufacturer the same as all the other thousands of them out there and an item made by an individual, by hand, in a specific, individual and personal way and which has taken many hundreds of hours to build.

If you want to compare with road vehicles then at least look at the custom car or motorcycle market where, strangely enough, they also never seem to achieve the high prices the time, skill and number of hours would tend to suggest.

If you are resting your case on that I can see the lawyers rubbing thier hands already!! ::)
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Sub driver on February 12, 2008, 06:54:10 pm
A model , any model is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, nothing else. :)
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bryan Young on February 12, 2008, 08:02:38 pm
Probably perfectly OK if viewed as a static model Bryan.
It is actually pretty good looking as a "static", but it wasn't meant to be that way. Live and learn I guess.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: elmo on February 12, 2008, 08:08:41 pm
A model , any model is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, nothing else. :)

I agree, and that principle is the same for virtually anything and everything - hence we get auctions so that (in theory) an item should be able to find its own worth by the quantity of (or lack of) bids...
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 12, 2008, 08:18:03 pm
Westcoaster,
Just to finish one part off.
VAT is payable on new cars. VAT is payable on Commercial vehicles, not on private second hand car sales.
I assume you have sold a car on, did you pay VAT on the sale price to HMG?
But I am not talking about cars, as BunkerBarge has said, we are talking about a 1 off. Yes even a kit.
I understand fully that something is only worth what someone will pay for it, but prices do seem to be depressed.
The only point I was making on starting this thread was that prices seem to be depressed.

Bob
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: westcoaster on February 12, 2008, 08:59:35 pm
Shipmate 60,  This VAT business is after all secondary to the point of this thread and I've no wish to contribute to pushing it "off topic".
However I'm sitting here reading the Dealers invoice for the second hand car I bought my wife a couple of years ago - It reads - total vehicle price £6309.69,Road fund licence £57.75, Network Q guarantee £105.00, VAT £1122.56,Total Sale Price £7595.00.
I'm saying no more about this
Best Wishes
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: cos918 on February 12, 2008, 09:01:28 pm
there is another possible reason. Every thing go in cycles.   
Look on ebay airfix queen Elizabeth kits have been going for £16+ .That more than in the shops when it was out, then you have pp on that. At the moment the demand is high so prices are high which is good for sellers. In the futher demand may drop and prices drop which is good for buyers.
Also what doesn't help people get a good price for the models is the shocking bad way it is advertised with poor useless photos. There is no way that they can hope to get a good price and they only have them selves to blame.
john
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: tubby on February 12, 2008, 09:06:28 pm
Vat is chargable on second hand cars,
If you sell a secondhand car yourself you can not charge vat
if you are not registered as you have no vat number and can not issue
a vat invoice.
 
Barry
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 12, 2008, 09:08:43 pm
 :)

Bob
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bee on February 12, 2008, 09:57:26 pm
A few disjoint thoughts...

Who wants to buy a built boat anyway? The people on here mostly are interested in building though some buy something if they are slow at getting their main project built. the actual using of the item is only 1/10th of the hobby.
The number of people who get any joy out of just floating a boat made by someone else is very very small. This hobby is all about building, then silaing because you have built it yourself. (one of the reasons the instant plastic boats kids get now only get tried once)
The concept of a kit is a problem because it costs a disproportionate amount to produce in small volumes. People are used to the assesment of value of things that are mass produced.
Since the purpose of a kit is to be built if it has already been built it has lost much of its raison d'etre.
A cubic yard of concrete mix costs $100 and has great and varied potential. Mix and lay it on your drive and it is useful, and of indeterminate value. Need to get rid of it to lay some grass and it costs you money to have it taken away.
Pay money for some canvas and paint. Leonardo could make that worth millions, a modern artist can make it worth less than the materials.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bryan Young on February 12, 2008, 10:08:43 pm
A few disjoint thoughts...

Who wants to buy a built boat anyway? The people on here mostly are interested in building though some buy something if they are slow at getting their main project built. the actual using of the item is only 1/10th of the hobby.
The number of people who get any joy out of just floating a boat made by someone else is very very small. This hobby is all about building, then silaing because you have built it yourself. (one of the reasons the instant plastic boats kids get now only get tried once)
The concept of a kit is a problem because it costs a disproportionate amount to produce in small volumes. People are used to the assesment of value of things that are mass produced.
Since the purpose of a kit is to be built if it has already been built it has lost much of its raison d'etre.
A cubic yard of concrete mix costs $100 and has great and varied potential. Mix and lay it on your drive and it is useful, and of indeterminate value. Need to get rid of it to lay some grass and it costs you money to have it taken away.
Pay money for some canvas and paint. Leonardo could make that worth millions, a modern artist can make it worth less than the materials.
I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked (about "Baroda") by both kids and their fathers where they could buy the kit. Invariably they have not believed that a model is not built from a kit....sometimes with colourful language.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 12, 2008, 10:38:00 pm
Manheim Auctions – Officially Britain’s Number One Car & Van ...As a rule, there is no VAT on used cars. However, in addition to the hammer price VAT is applicable on most commercial vehicles and plant. ...

 :angel:  :angel:  :angel:

Bob
 
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: bogstandard on February 12, 2008, 10:40:09 pm
I reckon in the clubs I have belonged to, at least 50% of the members had bought their boats ready built, usually from club members. Also in the last few years, RTS boats are coming on to the market (Graupner Graf Spee as an example), fairly expensive, but not overly so (but are very basic models), are these to be classed as second hand? Just because they are ready built. A few people just won't or can't build for themselves, and when they saw mine sailing asked how much I would sell it to them for. Most of them snatched my hand off when I told them, because they realised they were getting a model that was, although from a kit, unique, well built and reliable.

Quote
If you don't desperately need to get rid of a good model, don't drop your price.  If we all did it, it would leave just the rubbish out there and perhaps potential buyers would eventually realise what real value there is in a beautifully finished, fully working and ready to go model. If someone thinks your having a bit of a laugh with your price, the simple answer is tell them to go buy a kit and radio gear then build one for themselves. The only reason they want yours is to save themselves time and money... and effort... and maybe they just don't have the skills.
Lets face it, if they commissioned someone to build and fit out their own kit.... they would get the shock of their lives!

I love that reply, maybe if a few of us who build good quality models followed this bit of advice, people just might start to realise just how much time, effort and cash goes into a scale model, even if a heavily modified kit, and start to realise that there is a big difference between an el cheapo runabout off ebay, and a well made scale model.
I do know of people that just go around buying boats from people willing to sell them too cheaply, then hacking them around the local clubs and selling them at large profits, usually after the internals are stripped out and sold elsewhere, usually ruining a perfectly set up model in the process.

Stick to your guns, stick to your prices and don't let these b's make a living out of our hard work.

John

Please, VAT on cars has sod all to do with selling model boats.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bryan Young on February 13, 2008, 08:31:38 pm
On the same subject, although a little macabre. A couple of years ago one of our members died, leaving his models in the club-house lockers. Soon afterwards a pair of "heavies" appeared at the clubhouse stating that they were relatives and were claiming the property. They chose the wrong day. I don't think they will try that scam again in Tynemouth. But it must happen all over the country. These parasites have no morals, no sense of decency and no regard for anything apart from "money". A pox on them all.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bryan Young on February 13, 2008, 10:19:32 pm
A few disjoint thoughts...

Who wants to buy a built boat anyway? The people on here mostly are interested in building though some buy something if they are slow at getting their main project built. the actual using of the item is only 1/10th of the hobby.
The number of people who get any joy out of just floating a boat made by someone else is very very small. This hobby is all about building, then silaing because you have built it yourself. (one of the reasons the instant plastic boats kids get now only get tried once)
The concept of a kit is a problem because it costs a disproportionate amount to produce in small volumes. People are used to the assesment of value of things that are mass produced.
Since the purpose of a kit is to be built if it has already been built it has lost much of its raison d'etre.
A cubic yard of concrete mix costs $100 and has great and varied potential. Mix and lay it on your drive and it is useful, and of indeterminate value. Need to get rid of it to lay some grass and it costs you money to have it taken away.
Pay money for some canvas and paint. Leonardo could make that worth millions, a modern artist can make it worth less than the materials.
When I first came on to this forum I made it very clear that I considered kit boats (in general, but with exceptions) to be building somebody elses model. Much castigation ensued. Pariah. A kit is the model equivelant of a Ford Fiesta..lots of them, except that some are built better than others. But none of them are worth much as they are (indeed) "kits".  I really do believe that the rise in kit building and the decline in decent scratch building has skewed the market for sellers of good boats. I make no apology for this, nor have I attempted to sell a boat, but "kits" are "kits" and should never be equated to building a model. Kits are great for those who wish to sail model boats. Kits are great for those who wish to learn. But NEVER ever think that a mass produced item will command a price commensurate with that of a well researched, well built and unique scratch built item. Kits is kits, toys for the boys. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: DickyD on February 13, 2008, 10:22:59 pm
Quote from: Bryan Young
When I first came on to this forum I made it very clear that I considered kit boats (in general, but with exceptions) to be building somebody elses model. Much castigation ensued. Pariah. A kit is the model equivelant of a Ford Fiesta..lots of them, except that some are built better than others. But none of them are worth much as they are (indeed) "kits".  I really do believe that the rise in kit building and the decline in decent scratch building has skewed the market for sellers of good boats. I make no apology for this, nor have I attempted to sell a boat, but "kits" are "kits" and should never be equated to building a model. Kits are great for those who wish to sail model boats. Kits are great for those who wish to learn. But NEVER ever think that a mass produced item will command a price commensurate with that of a well researched, well built and unique scratch built item. Kits is kits, toys for the boys. Enjoy.


Yeah yeah same old Bryan, don't you ever learn, you just cant resist it can you. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 13, 2008, 10:40:12 pm
Bryan is basically right though. The big auction houses have cottoned on to the difference between kits and scratch built models. It's quality and uniqueness which commands the best prices. In a sense it is the increase in quality of the average kit which is depressing prices. Now almost any reasonably competent modeller can build a good quality model by following the instructions and sticking the bits together. If you are the builder and the model is for you then that's fine. But there is no exclusiveness and therefore resale prices will inevitably be low. Quality, craftmanship and uniqueness will always command a premium price just as it does in other fields.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: DickyD on February 13, 2008, 10:55:33 pm
He may be right Colin but you know the same as I do that he has caused more aggro than enough in the past  with his digs at people who build kits and who are therefore not as clever as him. He's had several warnings and been banned once and still he trys to wind people up. >>:-(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 13, 2008, 11:08:36 pm
Seems to have succeeded there then Richard!  {-) {-) {-)

Take it with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: DickyD on February 13, 2008, 11:19:05 pm
Thats moderation then. :( >:(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 13, 2008, 11:29:05 pm
Well, you may not agree with the post but I don't think it was actually offensive as such. What Bryan says does reflect market conditions. As far as the instrinsic value of kits is concerned, he has his views and others have theirs, everyone is entitled to an opinion but in the end that's all it is - just an opinion. I can't get too worked up about it myself - and I'm actually building a kit at the moment.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: OMK on February 14, 2008, 12:35:55 am
Mr. Bish', what is it with you? Are you on drugs or something? How come you always ALWAYS give top-notch answers?
I can't help but admire the way you make your point. Never at any time do we hear you resorting to some two-bit, back-stabbing malarky.
Total respect, my man!
But Brian Young?... a smart bum??
Yeah, I know.
I'd swap both testicles to have even a squillionth of his know-how. The man hates using hyphens where he should be using 'em, but he obviously knows the difference 'twixt kit and quality.

" - and I'm actually building a kit at the moment."

Seen it already. A copy of Furness Warren, right?
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: offshore1987 on February 14, 2008, 01:04:00 am
Not really sure what to make of all this  ::) 

After startin and buildin my Tito Neri for 4+ years on and off, iv injoyed some of it but iv hated other parts, i think if anything it has put me off of ever building another kit, 2 year or close to it after startin the tito, i went into my local model shop ( i drove there on my ped at the time ) went in saw the new thunder tiger rtr little model fishing boat, was priced at near to £200, it took me all of 2 mins after lookin at it to drive home order a taxi then go back with the money and i got it there and then  O0

I guess the point im making is that the tito is in the graupner book as easyish to build ( and the guy at the model shop said it was an easy build ) which imo is so wronge its unreal, nothing fits right and its a pain to build, so when i saw the rtr boat i fell in love with it ( this was the first real time id seen a rtr with this much detail ) Even though i had a model kit half built that has cost me a STUPID amount of money ( i know a ruff idear of what its cost me and i feel sick about it ) i still spent the other £200 on a boat i could just take down the lake anytime and plop in the water and have fun with, i even forgot about the tito for a year while i played with the rtr boat ( which always had people lookin at it )  :D

After all this and the time its taken to finally get the tito neri finished and the money its cost, its put me off alot  :(  If i ever get another model boat i think il buy a ARTR or RTR and not get something that will sit in the box for years, Though it will be nice to be at the lake and when someone asks "where did you buy that from or did you build that" i can say yes i built her my self  O0 but i think havin something that can be at the lake for someone to say those things in the first place is better lol = rtr or artr or even having a model built by someone else  O0

all the best
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 14, 2008, 02:42:47 am
I think Offshore1987 says it perfectly.  He buys what he wants, goes down to the pond and enjoys the social environment of a few friends together sharing an enjoyment of a relaxing sail.  Most mornings I am sailing something I purchased second hand, some are scratch, come are kit and some are semi.  Who cares?

I certainly would not dream of looking down on him because he brings an rtr boat to the water I'd simply appreciate the fact that he's there and wants to share a bit of his day with me.  Unfortunately you just don't seem to get the same open mindedness from a minority of the scratchbuild modellers.  Too many  seem to think they are the only ones that can make a model and all other genre's are looked down thier noses at.

As far as we are concerned at my club we are all model boaters and that's why I think we have such an open and friendly atmosphere in the club.  We have out of the box plastic yachts sailing alongside scratchbuilt plank on frame yachts and full scale yachts and it doesn't occur to any of us to classify each other.  We simply enjoy each others company and the pleasure of a bit of time together.  I think too many people miss that point nowadays in thier strivings to outdo each other.

Maybe I should start to look down on electric driven boats as not proper models because they are not steam driven.  Safe in the knowledge, of course, that everyone else must be an idiot because they don't understand steam!! ::)
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: bigford on February 14, 2008, 03:39:45 am
will i get all the money back that i invested in building a 1/50 smit rotterdam ?
1) $300.00 for the billings kit
2) $129.00 for the scroll saw
3) $150.00 for drill press
4) $130.00 for the belt sander
5) $100. enlarging the copies
6) 50.00 for marine plywood

 keep in mind that if i was not building this boat i would not need the tools listed. so to me they have to be part of the cost of a semi scratch built type of boat (i'm not sure if i'm scratch building or not) by the time the ship is done it could be well worth over $2000.00. i dont think i will ever
see that money back.  but i would hope to get close to the money invested forget the time :angel:
BUT if i needed the green i would let it go for less :(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: banjo on February 14, 2008, 07:36:47 am
I agree completely with Brian.  Model making is an art form.  Take some time out to visit the museums in Sunderland or Newcastle and you will see the models built for Ship Owners, from a time when we we built ships, wonderful.
Brian is of that ilk, building models equal or better.

There is also some outrageous cr*p about too; not every scratch builder comes up to scratch!

I build from kits or semi kits.   That is because I am not equipped with the skills or patience to do do otherwise.

There are some folk about who rate themselves too highly, I think Brian's remarks go to the heart of that problem.   He is good at model making, some others only think they are; however, that said, there is room enough on the Pond and in this Forum for us all, without ever having to fall out about it.

 O0

PS Re-read this...can you fall out from a pond?
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: OMK on February 14, 2008, 07:54:41 am
"PS Re read this...can you fall out from a pond?"

Good point.
Which goes back to that old airplane scene......

Paddy and Mick are flying in an open cockpit two-seater.

"Hey, Mick, if we fly upside-down, will we fall out?"
"Nah, we'll still be friends."

Scratch... kit... does it really matter? I guess Offshore nailed it when he mentioned the magic ingredient....... it should only be about FUN.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 14, 2008, 09:28:21 am
I agree with most of the foregoing comments, in the end it's what you personally want to get out of the hobby that's important. Some people prefer the building process, some enjoy running the models as a social activity, some like a bit of both in varying proportions. In that sense all model boaters are pretty much equal.

Where we get confused sometimes is in assuming that the type of boating you enjoy somehow defines your worth as a person. I think most people would agree that somebody who does original research, draws up their own plans and then scratch builds a model to a really high standard has achieved rather more than somebody who has built a kit based model. But you can't use that to argue that the former is a superior human being. The kit builder may be a brain surgeon looking for a bit of R&R! Almost all the really great scratch builders I have known have been pretty modest types. They are confident in their skills but don't see this as a reason to assert themselves over the "lower orders". Instead they will tend to encourage you to improve your own slkill sets and pass on hints, tips and advice just as most of us on this Forum are happy to go out of our way to help others wherever we can.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 14, 2008, 09:52:13 am
I think that's it in a nutshell Colin.  Take people as a person not as a scratchbuilder, kit maker etc.  We have a couple of extreemly competent scratchbuilders in our club but you would never know it to talk to them.  They are simply very friendly, generous people who enjoy there hobby as much as the guy sailing his out of the box plastic yacht alongside them. 

That I think is one of the greatest aspects of my own club and one of the things that makes me feel quite proud to be a part of it.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: malcolmfrary on February 14, 2008, 10:36:35 am
The only time you are likely get your money is if you are building a commission for somebody generous.  Otherwise, you are building for your own enjoyment, and that is difficult to put a price on.
The point about a well made scratch built model being unique and therefore having a higher intrinsic value at the auction house is fair enough, but pity the scratch builder who makes a superb model, and then the following year, a kit or RTR of the same prototype appears on the market. 
At a show a few years back, the best in show went to an Edwardian lake launch.  Beautifully scratch built.  There were people who refused to believe it wasn't one of the kits of the same prototype, and seemed unable to comprehend that the two models would look much alike.
And then there are the auction houses themselves.  On a recent "flog it" type show a guy had an old tinplate train set.  "0" gauge.  The presenter "expert" pronounced it as a Hornby clockwork set, as did the auctioneer.  Nobody seemed to have seen the great big makers name of "Mettoy" printed on the box in four inch letters, and appearing on every single part in the box.
However much time, effort, skill and resources you have put into your model, it is worth in money what you can get for it on the day.
A model shop has to guess what the market is like in their area.  Putting a price on that is pleasant for the seller may stop it ever selling, and having a possibly large item taking up space that is being paid for might not do the shop owner any good.  At the end of the chain, the person paying the money decides the price, either by agreeing with the price on the label, haggling it down, or moving on.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin H on February 14, 2008, 02:37:17 pm
My Two pennies worth,

If you build models to earn a living then you have to worry about the price.

If you build models as a hobby to enjoy the build or to enjoy a day at the pond with others of a like mind then you really should not take resale value into account. You have already had your monies worth.

Colin H.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: djrobbo on February 14, 2008, 03:31:10 pm
Exactly the same problem i used to have restoring classic cars.........people could'nt understand why it could cost two to three toimes more to restore their basket case than it was worth to sell when it was done..........case in point .....one of my customers went and bought a mk2 daimler sovereign ( s type jag with a boot ) for 3500 pounds......it was a bucket of poo............in the end it cost him somewhere round 12000 pounds to bring up to show level......the going price for a nice example at that time was 5000 pounds...........moral.....when building something for your own enjoyment and pleasure the cost should not come in to it.....................

    question........i have loads of plans , mostly vic smeeds , but not all , if i build from someone elses plan where does that place me in the grand scheme of things ?? O0

          regards......bob.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin H on February 14, 2008, 03:39:29 pm
Bob,

Your statement about plans helps put scratch building into perspective. How about if you want to correctly scratch build first cut your tree, then dig your iron ore etc etc, This disagreement could go on forever why can't people just enjoy the ride.

Yours Colin H.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: elmo on February 14, 2008, 03:58:53 pm
Bob,

Your statement about plans helps put scratch building into perspective. How about if you want to correctly scratch build first cut your tree, then dig your iron ore etc etc, This disagreement could go on forever why can't people just enjoy the ride.

Yours Colin H.

Yep, very sad eh Colin - I agree with you, but its called oneupmanship or in order words, down right snobbery - its crap, but as 'Old Blue Eyes' said, that's life!  :'(

Surely even real boats are built from kits - and from plans someone else has drawn up - from a design someone else did - from an idea someone had! For goodness sakes, where on earth are we going with this anyway....!!  :(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: DickyD on February 14, 2008, 04:08:32 pm
Probably the same place we went when Brian last looked down his nose at kit builders on here. ::)
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: DickyD on February 14, 2008, 04:18:30 pm
KenP is making the Victory. Suppose Brian would class this as a "kit" and "a boys toy"  >>:-(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: offshore1987 on February 14, 2008, 04:40:41 pm
I guess my first reply is diffrent to most people because the lake i use is an open water to start with, so you dont have a peg thingy and what not, even though iv almost finished the tito i wouldnt look down at people that turn up with rtr or artr boats either brand new or second hand stuff, oks at times you get people that turn up have no idear and put their boat in water and its the same chip as someone elses that is sailing, Iv seen modelers going right off on one and having ago at them, but i think is this wronge, when iv been sailin and someone turns up and it get  interference i just walk along and explain whats gone on and how that people ask when they turn up what others are on  :angel:  after all everyone should be there to get along and have a good time sailing

Shouldnt this be a etiquette hobby?
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: sheerline on February 14, 2008, 04:51:41 pm
Elmo made a good point about scratch building, we all tend to use plans...drawn up by someone else. Think on this, if a chap designed his own boat, drew his own plans and of course, scratch built it... would modelling purists turn their noses up because it wasn't a model of a full size prototype? My experience has been that they do and despite the excellence and build quality of the 'model', it tends not to rate alongside the other boats it's moored up against at the pond. It's a real shame that these types of builder aren't given the praise they deserve as their boats are definately unique ine very sense of the word.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: barryfoote on February 14, 2008, 04:57:57 pm
Bob,

Your statement about plans helps put scratch building into perspective. How about if you want to correctly scratch build first cut your tree, then dig your iron ore etc etc, This disagreement could go on forever why can't people just enjoy the ride.

Yours Colin H.

Yep, very sad eh Colin - I agree with you, but its called oneupmanship or in order words, down right snobbery - its crap, but as 'Old Blue Eyes' said, that's life!  :'(

Surely even real boats are built from kits - and from plans someone else has drawn up - from a design someone else did - from an idea someone had! For goodness sakes, where on earth are we going with this anyway....!!  :(
Okay I have been reading this thread with growing displeasure as it has grown. Colin..You are absolutely spot on....

I have been building model ships for over 20 years, both kits and scratch built. I am not a professional and lack many of the skills required to be a really good scratch builder. I also lack many of the expensive tools needed. What I am is very keen. I love my hobby and have had great fun scratch building. That said..The best fun has been building kits, modifying them where required to achieve accuracy and learning a lot as I go along. I was once snubbed by a professional scratch builder at an exhibition because he came 1st 2nd and third....The rest of us mere mortals languished behind. This is very sad and Mr Young does less to promote the art than the most basic builder who simply tries his best.

Barry >:( >:( >>:-(
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 14, 2008, 05:04:37 pm
Good point Sheerline, I think they do sometimes which, as I said earlier, just demonstrates that there are as many different opinions as there are modellers. Why should any one opinion be elevated over another? Seems from this thread that some people believe that there is a universal truth lurking out there as to what is right or wrong. There isn't!

Another twist to this is that Alex McFadyen's 9 foot long model of a G3 battlecruiser which won a Gold medal at last year's Ascot ME Exhibition depicted a ship that was never actually built - although they did draw the plans up for it. It really brought to liife a vessel that was almost constructed and was a really creative project based on rock solid research. Fantastic piece of work which was acknowledged as such.

Quote
KenP is making the Victory. Suppose Brian would class this as a "kit" and "a boys toy"   

Isn't that just putting words in people's mouths Richard? I don't think that personalising things helps the debate.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 14, 2008, 05:12:42 pm
Quote
I was once snubbed by a professional scratch builder at an exhibition because he came 1st 2nd and third....The rest of us mere mortals languished behind.

Footski - you make it sound as if you had an inferiority complex! The guy who did the snubbing was the inferior person however good his models may have been. Also was the competition staged fairly? If you get marks for the amount of work put into the model then putting scratchbuilt and kit models in the same class is like comparing apples and pears. You simply cannot have a fair competition if everything gets lumped in together, although some organisers seem to think you can.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: DickyD on February 14, 2008, 05:42:22 pm

Quote
KenP is making the Victory. Suppose Brian would class this as a "kit" and "a boys toy"   

Isn't that just putting words in people's mouths Richard? I don't think that personalising things helps the debate.

What would you like me to do Colin, generalize like Bryan and lump all scratch builders into the same category as him.  I don't think so.
I know to many likeable ones.
Title: Re: Second Hand Model Prices
Post by: chingdevil on February 14, 2008, 06:05:06 pm
MODERATED

Due to some of the comments appearing in this thread, and the fact it has wandered away from the original posting. this thread is now LOCKED

Brian