Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: dan on February 22, 2008, 04:56:14 pm

Title: smoke genorators
Post by: dan on February 22, 2008, 04:56:14 pm
hi everyone,
can someone please show me a diagram and explane how to set up a working smoke genorator.
many thanks
Dan
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 22, 2008, 06:47:54 pm
We usually buy ready made smoke generators - Action Electronic, Hunter systems, Graupner, Robbe (heated coil types) or the Ex JJC Water vapor unit.... which one do you have?
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: dan on February 22, 2008, 07:47:52 pm
i don't have any at the mo, i was just doing some research as it would have been the first time Ive added any extra features in my models. so i need to know what i will need and how to set them up etc,

thanks
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: adam_goodin on February 22, 2008, 08:04:41 pm
Hi guys, sorry to interrupt your thread. Does anyoe still hav any of the jjc units?
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Marks Model Bits on February 22, 2008, 08:31:47 pm
I am a cheapskate, so I make my own smoke generators.  Hannah has one fitted in her destroyer and it looks effective and they only cost a few pounds....

Mark.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on February 22, 2008, 08:36:27 pm
Hi guys, sorry to interrupt your thread. Does anyoe still hav any of the jjc units?

I REALLY don't understand why anyone would want to buy a product which was material in closing down a business because of quality issues. Have I missed something here - Russian Roulette, maybe? If I had a quid for every phone call I've received about the range of JJC units and their attendant problems then I'd be cruising in the West Indies now.
 
FYI I gather that Harbor Models of California are about to introduce a unit which is similar to ***, save that it's oil-based and costs $100. There is also a German company who offer a similar unit for 120 Euros..............and no; we've  no intention of developing one.

Suit yourselves.

FLJ
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: adam_goodin on February 22, 2008, 08:46:20 pm
I was just asking since ive seen them mentioned a fare bit.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 22, 2008, 08:49:58 pm
Has anyone considered using cigarettes....? (especially if you've built a puffer!)
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Marks Model Bits on February 22, 2008, 09:37:57 pm
Hi Dan, here goes......
All you need is a small reservoir, a small computer chip cooling fan, some NI-Chrome wire (heating element out of an old hair dryer will do), a  short length of dowel or similar, a small piece of WOVEN fibreglass cloth, 12 volt battery, disco fog fluid (available from Maplins), plastic or copper tubing for the flue to the funnel and a couple of screw block connectors.

To work out the length of the Ni-CH wire needs a bit of trial and error to get right, you need the wire long enough for the fog fluid to burn off but not get red hot.
Next, wrap the glass cloth around the dowel to act as a wick and spiral the Ni-CH wire around that making sure the wire doesn't overlap. Use the choc. block connectors to connect the power feed wires to the Ni-Ch wire (solder doesn't work for some reason) and place dowel at an angle in the reservoir with the wick in the fluid but not the element. Secure the computer chip fan to the reservoir. Fill  the reservoir with fluid up to the bottom of the element and connect up the power and switch on.
I have done a schematic drawing to try to explain how I did it, it's easier than it looks.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: dan on February 22, 2008, 09:57:09 pm
thanks for the help every1
 O0
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: portside II on February 22, 2008, 10:44:29 pm
just popped on this topic after buying a ultrasonic humidifyer (getteng a problem with the heating ,too dry) ,now this thing kicks out loads of water vapour and as a thought could one be made for 12/24v to work on a steam boat or the like .
just an idea .
daz
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: malcolmfrary on February 24, 2008, 03:34:20 pm
Quote
just popped on this topic after buying a ultrasonic humidifyer (getteng a problem with the heating ,too dry) ,now this thing kicks out loads of water vapour and as a thought could one be made for 12/24v to work on a steam boat or the like .
just an idea .
I think that's pretty much the idea that JJC had a few years ago.  It seems that there are inherent problems with consistent reliability.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: offshore1987 on February 24, 2008, 06:43:50 pm
Iv got a hunter and a jjc now, id say the hunter is great it works well kicks out alot of smoke but it smels abit  :D and this is the problem with all oil units, the jjc is also great imo and you can run it in doors with out the wife stabin you lol  O0

All the best with finding one

P.s the hunter one dos get alittle hot though so you will need to think about where you put it  :)
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: malcolmfrary on February 25, 2008, 12:29:02 pm
Most oil based smokers can have a few drops of aromatherapy oil added.  You might get some funny looks at the lakeside, and a whole new bunch of friends.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: dan on February 25, 2008, 09:35:50 pm
thanks for all the help guys.
however i how have a smoke generator, but when it runs it makes a crackly noise, and sounds like its spitting a little bit of the fluid should this be happening?

dan
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Big Ada on February 28, 2008, 05:34:44 pm
Hi Dan,
If you are burning oil maybe a little water or condensation has got in?.

Just bought the fogging liquid and a fan from Maplins,can't wait to get started on the DIY version!,what I thought I might do is fit a micro switch linked to the rudder at its furthest throw so that I can turn on the smoke at will.

Len.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Big Ada on March 01, 2008, 05:40:10 pm
Hi Mustang Mark,
If I keep the Element wire short could I use 6volts?
Also,I have bought a Fan from Maplins and it has Red,Black,Yellow wires,do I use the Yellow?.

Len
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Marks Model Bits on March 01, 2008, 06:42:06 pm
Hi Len, I tried it on 6 volts with a shorter length of wire, it did work but not as well as it does on 12. The red and black wires are the ones to use on the fan.

Mark.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: barriew on March 02, 2008, 10:22:10 am
Hi Mustang Mark,
If I keep the Element wire short could I use 6volts?
Also,I have bought a Fan from Maplins and it has Red,Black,Yellow wires,do I use the Yellow?.

Len

I suspect the yellow wire is a signal wire of some sort if it is a computer fan. Try just using the red and black. If it is a computer fan, its probably designed to run on 5volts.

Barrie
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: wombat on March 02, 2008, 05:23:08 pm
The yellow wire is the speed sensor used to detect fan failure
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Big Ada on March 02, 2008, 05:40:33 pm
Hi Guys,
Thanks for your answers,The fan says it's 12v
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Big Ada on March 03, 2008, 05:56:00 pm
Hi Guys,
Just made a smoke genorator from the plan above worked 1st time,well 2nd actually as the fan sucked instead of blew!.
If I want darker smoke, can I dye it with food dye?. I got the smoke liquid from Maplins.

Regards.

Len    O0
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Marks Model Bits on March 03, 2008, 06:14:06 pm
Dunno never tried it why not give it a go and see what happens :D :D :D Glad you got it working personally i think it chucks out just the right amount of smoke, the commercial units seem to produce too much smoke in my opinion, like a destroyer smokescreen!!

Mark.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: PIT on March 03, 2008, 06:35:13 pm
Hi everyone  Just thought I'd put my two peneth in, I got some pond vaporisers from Maplins. Run them on 24v and use a fan to blow mist up funnels. batteries last hours smoke very realistic even if it is water vapour. Several members of Barry model boat club have done the same. reliable and effective. When on offer have done it for as little as 6. all the best PIT
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: kit1947 on March 03, 2008, 06:48:12 pm
Gooday Pit have seen those vapourisers at Maplins and was wondering about them. Can you give some idea how to set them up in a hull. Do they only work on 24v ?
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: dan on March 04, 2008, 05:51:07 pm
thanks for all the help and comments guys O0

dan
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: dan on March 10, 2008, 04:51:01 pm
hi,
Big Ada did you try adding the food colouring and did it work?

thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Big Ada on March 12, 2008, 05:15:24 pm
Hi Dan,
Yes I did add some food dye,just a little incase it didn't mix. It did so set it going but couldn't see much difference.
I see in the latest Model Boat, Mag Glynn Guest has been experimenting with smoke from his steam boiler by adding car antifreeze to get smokier smoke in the summer.

Len.    ::)
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: dan on March 12, 2008, 07:05:44 pm
thanks len O0
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: pakirk on April 15, 2008, 10:48:03 pm
Hi all.
I have LOADS of the JJC old Smokey's in my workshop (RCMW) for repair.

How did they work?
Well I think most of you have worked it out.
They use vapourisers li ke the ones at Maplins. they were imported from Taiwan.

they were installed into an ABS box with a funnel and an inlet. the vapouriser vaporised the water, the little computer fan blew the vaporised water out and up the funnel.

The units are 24V, JJC made a PCB that converted 12V into 24V (DCtoDC inverter). This is NOT a cheep thing to do hence they were not cheep units. The PCB also controlled the fan to produce a reasonable controll over the water vapors (Smoke).
To be honest I cant see how he made much of a profit, the components are expensive and rather complex.  I have been asked to produse a replacement and I will soon.

Where did it all go wrong?
The units work as an ultrasonic transducer. They vibrate a very thin diaphragm. If the diaphragm is not under 12mm of water they burn out.

Was there not a water sensor I hear you say?
Yes there was BUT. It was covered in heat-shrink..mmmm.. when the water runs out the sensor is still wet. Water trapped in the heat-shrink fooled the sensor and kept the unit running....
The diaphragm then burns out.

Isn't the diaphragm replaceable?
Yes..well should be...
Are they available?
mmm well em ah.    I am in communication with the manufacturers in Taiwan JJC used a now obsolete product. They don't make parts for that model any more.  :'(

I am still trying to sort something out and when I do I will post to that effect.

There is also a problem with the PCBs, I have many that have burnt out.

That aside what next?

I will produce a range of units:-
I am looking at initially doing two flavors.

1) 24V version (cheaper as a DC to DC inverter is not required) just a basic controll circuit.
2) a 12V version not so cheap as a (DC to DC inverter) is required..

Both units will have several sensors installed to prevent burnout.
simple hu.

When?
Well once I can secure a RELIABLE suppliers for the ultrasonic units.

If you can provide 24V in your model then it's not hard to make one using the Maplin units in a box and a fan. Give it a go. Food dye dose work with these I have tested it loads. only problem, it can get a little messy. remember water vapor is water and will fall onto your model. Food dye sprayed onto your model over time will not be nice.


Regards
Anthony

RC Model Workshop.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Barry on April 16, 2008, 01:34:32 am
I've got a JJC Mk2 unit that I've yet to run in a model, would it pay to remove the heat shrink from the sensor before using it? I presume the sensor is in the plastic case.
Barry.
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: pakirk on April 16, 2008, 04:29:47 pm
Hi Barry, Yes but be carfule not to damage the coil. Use a scalple sharp sire out. to cut the shrink.
Anthony
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Tug-Kenny on April 16, 2008, 08:02:32 pm

Thank you for that informative write up, Anthony.  Very interesting indeed. I have the very same unit and was impressed with the smoke (vapour) output.

I assume the vapouriser is similar (if not the same) as the Maplins one and wondered if it was practical to get one as a stand by unit.?  I shall also attempt the cutting operation (oh er!) in an effort to preserve mine.

Thank you once again

Ken
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: pakirk on April 16, 2008, 09:48:48 pm
Hi Yes the maplin ones are nearly the same and will work as a replacement. You can get spare diaphragms too. ;D
Also the Maplin ones have much better water sensors installed..

Anthony
Title: Re: smoke genorators
Post by: Martin [Admin] on June 06, 2008, 09:08:35 pm
Anyone got a circuit on how to get one of these things working from say a 12 volt supply?