Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: Glen Howard on March 09, 2008, 11:46:33 AM

Title: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on March 09, 2008, 11:46:33 AM
Hi all,

Well I've been swanning about on various different threads getting advice, I think it's time I put my money where my mouth is and started my own build thread. Here goes.

I am scratch-building the Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'. These vessels where once a very common sight on the Hobart docks, carrying timber up from the pine forests of the Tasmanian South West, and providing the wheels for all manner of commerce along the coastline. There is only one of these ships till around, the magnificent May Queen. Recently restored to museum condition (though sadly not sail-worthy), she sits tied alongside Constitution Dock under the care of the Maritime Museum.  Pic attached from a recent visit.

LIaleeta (built in 1919) was the second of three 'leeta' ships built by Wilson's of Port Cygnet, south of Hobart. The other two were Leeta May and Eva Leeta. Lialeeta traded in Tasmania, then along the Victorian and South Australian Coasts before being lost with all hands in April 1925 on a trip from South Australia to Melbourne. The choice of ship is really a matter of pragmatism - plans for Lialeeta were easily obtainable.

My own interest in this subject comes from the fact that my Great Grandfather used to own and / or act as master on several of these ketches, including the lovely Lenna (whose rotting hulk is currently the subject of a restoration). I was also keen to have a crack at scale sail, after a couple of powered scale vessels of mixed success.

To follow my journey into scale sail, soar with my highs and weep with my lows, and (hopefully) be there when I launch in the indeterminate future - read on! 

 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on March 09, 2008, 12:03:35 PM
Ok, well now we can get down to brass tacks. I started this build late in 2007 when I bought the set of plans. Which is to say I started thinking about the build in late 2007. My experience of model boating is that for every hour I spend at the workbench, I've devoted at least 7 hours to thinking things through. I have a fear of getting a long way through a build and realising I missed a crucial step on the way through. And yes, I have done this to myself - more than once!

I decided to build Lialeeta plank on frame. The plans tell me the ship did have an engine, though I have decided (for reasons of economy, among others) to build her as a straight sailer. I guess I'll take you briefly through the steps that have got me where I am now. I will attach pics as I go, hopefully they'll work ok.

First things first - the plan was drawn in 1:48 scale, and as my finders don't cope well with things so small, I had the print shop enlarge her to 1:36. Much better!

The next task was to trace the hull sections onto tracing paper, make some cardboard templates, and transfer the pattern onto the timber. For the framing I am using 12mm ply. Whilst this is working splendidly, it turns out that my original idea - to build some weight into the hull to reduce the amount of ballast required later - was based on false pemise, and that in fact I should have been building the hull as light as possible. Oh well, live and learn. I cut the hull sections out with a jigsaw (my kingdom for a bandsaw...), which went tolerably well.

Once the hull sections were cut out I started haunting a local ship chandler for a piece of marine ply for the keel. By a great stroke of luck I found a very nice, straight piece of ply offcut for only AUS$7. Happy with my bargain, I went home, transferred the pattern onto a template, marked and cut out the keel.

I fitted the hull sections onto the keel, working on a board to keep things square (ish). Then I ran stringers along the sections to add more stability while I worked.

For more exciting instalments, read on!

       
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on March 09, 2008, 12:35:57 PM
Ok, it was at this stage of the build that I struck my first real challenge. Having read the excellent 'Intro to Radio Controlled Scale Sailing Models' by Phillip Vaughan Williams, I learned about what he calls 'the scale problem'. That is, you can scale the ship and sails down, but the water and the wind remain 'full scale', therefore demanding some sort of solution that will keep the vessel in sailing trim, and not flat out (and presumably under).

Having considered a number of options, I decided that a drop keel and lead bulb would do the job on Lialeeta. This is all the more suitable, as the original vessel had a drop keel.

But how to go about this? In particular, how to fit the drop keel into the hull? It is no exaggeration to say that I whiled away many hot summer nights staring into the dark and pondering this problem. The solution I eventually hit upon seems to work - though 'real' modellers beware, some of the steps I have taken will horrify you, I'm sure!

Let's get this out of the way. I cut away a section of the keel between the 5th and 7th hull sections. There, I've said it. I don't need to read any marine engineering books to know this is not a smart thing to do, and that I have doubtless fatally compromised the hull structure. Time will tell, but I honestly couldn't come up with another way to fit a removable keel (with a substantial lead weight) without having it fitted right into the hull itself.

So - I cut away the keel (wince), and made a drop-keel out of brass plate that fits snugly into the gap. Then I fixed two wooden blocks into the gap on the inside of the hull to receive the keel - my hope is that these blocks will serve to maintain the integrity of the keel after sectioning it. I made a cut into the blocks on the lower side to recieve the brass plate, and then drilled holes across-ways so that the keel slides into the wooden blocks and is snugly bolted home. The photo I am attaching will tell this story much better thanI am doing!

You will see that having fitted the keel, I fitted two pieces of ply either side to fill in the gap that had been cut away. Effectively what I've done is make a box into which the keel can be easily fitted and removed.

I then cast a lead bulb (process: make the desired half-bulb shape from my daughter's Play Do: wrap in cling film and cast in plaster: allow cast to go off, and finish in the oven for good measure: melt lead sinkers, pour into mold and voila!). Attached pic shows the keel and bulb ready for fitting.

In the next instalment I'll be taking Lialeeta right up to the point where I'm ready to start planking - and as someone new to planking (no rhyming slang please), I am equal parts excited and nervous.

See you again soon!   
 

 

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on March 10, 2008, 07:05:54 AM
Right then - this update may be a bit brief, as I've already written it once and managed to lose it during the posting phase. As you can imagine, it wasn't a very funny moment...

The next job was to make a build board that will hold the hull steady (and inverted) for planking. Mine is a very simple affair - I've attached a picture to show how it works. Basically it consists of cross supports designed to recieve the top side of several hull sections mounted on a base that holds the whole thing off the bench top. I completely failed to describe it succesfully on the original post either - that's whay there's a picture there now!

I then cut out a piece of ply the same shape as the stern, and mounted this above the transom at deck level. As you will see from the plans, the hull planks sweep all the way up to the deck level at the transom, The idea of the piece of ply was to allow me to make something substantial to glue the stern end of the planking onto. To this end, I glued some blasa blocks under the ply, and fared these off - as you can see from the picture, they make a sturdy base for gluing the plank ends. YOu can also see on that photo where I've glued some blocks in around the keel where the rudder post will eventually go. I repeated the process at the stem too - again, picture refers.

Next step was to fare the hull sections so the planking runs smoothly. Here another disadvantage of using 12mm ply for hull sections emerged, as it was the work of several hours with chisels, modelling knife and a file to bring the faring into line. All the way through I was fantasizing about how easy this task must be with 3 mm ply... It would be easy to start obsessing over this task and over-do it - as I read elsewhere, be fussy, but don't aim for perfection.

The way I fared was to lay a length of planking lenghtwise along the hull - this clearly shows up high spots that need to be shaved back. In one case (I can't believe I'm sharing this, it does not reflect well on my skills) I actually had a low spot which needed to packed up a bit!

Having fared the hull, and prepared the plank termination points, I am ready to begin the process of planking. I will be spending some time reading up on the process before I take this next step. As it happens I have now brought this blog up to date, so it may be a little while before I get back with an update.

Hope to see you here when I do!
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on March 10, 2008, 11:01:38 AM
I will follow this build with great interest.
Thanks for posting Glen.


TT
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on March 10, 2008, 12:44:43 PM
Glen,

Thanks for sharing the process with us - nice pictures and commentary too.

Who is Wince, and why is he worried about the integrity of your keel?

It all seems to be working out well - your keel solution is well thought and should be fine - since our boats don't stay in the water they dont suffer like the real size ones.  What glues are you using?  Have you discovered PU glue in  the antipodes?

You may need a longer keel - to get the lead lower - as she seems to carry a good press of sail.  Can you unbolt the brass keel from inside the hull?

The framework is certainly robust enough - and the formers have plenty of gluing area ;D .  When you are planked the surrounding planks and your keel doublers will be quite strong enough.

What do you aim to plank with?

It is a little bit frustrating to lose an entire post as you finish it, isn't it? 
If it were to happen again you are hereby authorised to exclaim (reasonably loudly)  "BOTHER"

We look forward to seeing your skills as a planker

andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Brooks on March 10, 2008, 02:39:43 PM
Looking good :-)

We've all lost a long post, bah humbug. My solution is to now either a or b:

a) write the post before I log on using Notepad, save it as a .txt file on my computer as a backup, then paste the post into the forum's reply box (note, convert the Notepad file to non-wordwrap before copying it for pasting, otherwise you'll llikely get extraneous carriage returns in the forum version). I name all my backups "junk.txt", overwriting them as I go.
 
b) copy all the text from my post to a new .txt file and save that before hitting the "post" or "send" or whatever button w/in the forum posting program.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on March 10, 2008, 10:04:32 PM
Thanks all for your support!

Andrew: yes the drop-keel is easy to fit and remove. As an inexperienced sailor, and with precisely no scientific method going into keel design beyond hefting a handful of lead sinkers and thinking 'that'll do', I have to allow for the fact  that the keel may be insufficient in length /weight. It is essential therefore that I am easily able to remove it and replace it - which is very straightforward on this ship. Re planking, I've just read your reply to my post under 'hull planking', and am now thinking of taking up your idea to plank a layer in balsa, and overlay with the sapelle. I think that would give me the width needed for corrective sanding. Glue-wise, still undecided...the hardware shop yesterday sold me Liquid Nails, but when I got home I read that is not waterproof! Don't know PU glue, but  that's not to say it's not around. Will follow up! (btw, how is Volante prgressing?)

Brooks: excellent advice. Let me tell you a tale of woe. Last night I was doing some uni work on a blog forum (I'm doing my teaching qualifications) and EXACTLY THE SAME THING HAPPENED!! I couldn't believe it. 'Oh Bother!' I cried, before putting an axe through the monitor (well, thinking about it anyway). I hereby vow and pledge to write all future blogs on a word doc and then cut and paste, eminently sensible suggestion Brooks. (incidentally, I note that it didn't really end up being a short post after all - can't stop once I start!

see you all again soon. A-planking I will go.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on March 11, 2008, 01:15:49 PM
Glen,
Ola, Senor Plankista!
Glad you roped in the planking ramble too.  Dont worry overmuch about "waterproof" glues. 
A) We dont soak the boats continuously
B) all the joints are covered in paint/varnish/goop so the glue joints are protected
and much the best c) the water can only get at the thin end of the glue line!

Lots of people plank with white glue (not heavily waterproof).  Balsa cenent has not become any less effective, cascamite (or equivalent) is prefectly waterproof, if inconvenient.  lots of people use cyano.  For the second layer there is a school of thought who use contact adhesive - but I can't  bring myself to do that, i would carry on with the same glue as the first layer.

I think thare is a lot of assembled wisdom in the forum in glues for double planking and deck-laying (which is virtually the same duty)

If you used the Authorised "BOTHER" we regret to say that it cannot be re-issued or renewed - so as I believe I said to you when the world was young; - read my view,chuckle, but DO what Brooks suggests.

andrew
While failing to type the inverted ! for the spanish phrase I wondered if it is added as a Spanish courtesy to the Australians, to make them feel at home in the sentence?
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on March 12, 2008, 06:26:43 AM
Muchos Gracias Senor. Wish I read your post earlier. I spoke to my model shop about the glue thing, and they recommended that I use two-part epoxy, which I subsequently bought and am using no matter what. I knew in my heart that the liquid nails wouild probably be fine, but the thought of Lialeeta springing planks and heading south to DJs locker before an adoring crowd of thousands on launch day drove me on.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on March 12, 2008, 01:10:42 PM
De nada, Glen

Well, with epoxy all issues of strength, rigidity, durability and waterproofing are kicked firmly into touch!

Most planking is done little by little, and indeed the books reccommend this - working away from the keel and laying 3 or 4 planks each side in a session.  So mixing a little batch of epoxy and doing a session will be reasonably convenient. 

Has anyone said to you in the past 10 minutes that you CANNOT have too many clamps?  No?
Well you CANNOT have too many clamps!

Your frames are nice and wide so you will be able to get a good fit of a clamp on a plank and the frame with a spring clamp or whatever - dont forget you can wrap round the hull with  with rubber bands or string and use blocks of anything suitable to apply force where you need it.

Sorry to lecture
If your epoxy is slow (1 hr to 24 hour) you can afford to warm it before mixing
If it is fast-set type  - don't - probably mix one plank's worth at a time
Consider adding a little filler - microbaloons or woodflour or whatever to help with gap-filling and sandability
Clean up all the planks at the end of a session  - scrape and use alcohol (on the planks  :)) to take off uncured epoxy

Happy planking!
andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on March 12, 2008, 01:19:31 PM
Hi, Glen

Just found this - interesting (if you havn't already finished)

http://www.joliebrisemodels.co.uk/french/hull.html
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on March 25, 2008, 06:41:22 AM
Time for a quick update on progress.

I have started working my way through the first planking in 1.5mm balsa. I'm finding there is quite a significant twist required at the prow. The upshot of that is I am having to soak the front end of the plank in Windex in order to get enough required twist without a not-required 'snap', pin and glue the rest of the plank down, then clamp off the prow end until the Windex dries (you can't glue wet timber).  Once dried, the twisted end holds its shape nicely and is easily glued. This rigamarole means I can only really do two planks at a time (one either side of the keel), so this will be a slow process.

I am learning as I go about trimming the width of each plank at either end. As this is my first real crack at planking, I won't be too surprised if my judgement is not right and I have to use stealers. But I suppose that's one advantage of double planking - like a doctor I can bury my mistakes.

Two pics attached. See you again soon.

 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on March 30, 2008, 08:49:39 AM
Glen,

Good progress - don't worry about slowness, progress, or twisting planks - this one is the very worst (inevitably)!

The garboard strake (the plank that meets the keel has a full 90 degrees of twist, as you have discovered, and has a LOT of shaping to fit the keel, too

It it will be faster from now on!

andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: roycv on March 31, 2008, 09:28:30 PM
Hi GH, I am intrigued with the use of WINDEX.  I looked it up and it is for cleaning glass.  The formula does not suggest there is enough ammonia in it to do the wood bending!
How did you come across it for this use?
Enjoying the build, Roy
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 01, 2008, 11:14:48 AM
I got it from Google - repository of all the world's useful information (and much that is not so useful). On my previous project I had to work a significant bend into a balsa sheet (the alternative was to carve the solid shape out of a solid block, and my carving is not up to that). So I Googled 'bending balsa', worked my way through a few forum discussions it threw up, and came across the suggestion to use Windex. It is wonderfully effective - just soak the plank, leave it for a few minutes, and it will be very very forgiving on the bend. As to ammonia content, well I wouldn't know about that, but the results speak very clearly. I'll attach a pic of the prow I mentioned earlier so you can see what an amazing amount of bend I was able to achieve.

No progress on Lialeeta lately, life is a bit too busy just now.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: roycv on April 01, 2008, 10:09:48 PM
Hi GH it looks like its bending properties come from the ammonia.  The U.K. equivalent appears to be Windolene.
Ammonia; and you have to be very careful with it; will bend very large section wood.  Thanks for the information I will try it out next time I am planking.
good luck with the build.
regards Roy
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on May 17, 2008, 03:50:46 AM
Well it's been a while since I was able to update this blog - you know how it is, life gets busy and model boat time seems to be the time that suffers from prioritising. Anyway, the good news is that I'm finally only a few weeks away from being a qualified teacher. More relevant, perhaps, I've managed to work my way through the first balsa planking. Pics attached. Please bear in mind it is only a first planking, so it's not too pretty to look at. There are a few unwelcome ridges along the line too, particularly toward the stern end. I can't sand anymore away from the planking, and it's too late to file the hull section back further, so Lialeeta will have a bump. It's really not too bad, so I'll try not to lose too much sleep over it.

I could have commenced the second planking before now, but I've been weighing up in my mind whether to take a different approach from the one planned and just fibreglass the balsa planking and save myself the bother. After much deliberation I've decided to proceed with the second planking because, firstly, the balsa planking is a bit rough here and there, and that might show throw the fibreglass; secondly, my planking skills need more work, so it won't hurt to practice some more; and lastly because you always have to have three things in a list or it doesn't sound right.

I'll be drilling 1mm holes in the planking (Sapelle [sp?] 4mm x 1mm) before gluing as the pins won't push easily through. These holes wil be easy to fill when I'm done.

Here are the things on my mind as I prepare to push ahead:
- should I cut scupper holes along the deck line, or leave a half-plank break all along the length of the deck between the top of the deck and the start of the bulwarks? I think both options are available to me on this boat type.
- will my drop keel be deep / heavy enough for the job, or do I have to redesign it?
- how much longer can I put off the purchase of below decks servo winch and running gear? Not long I suspect...
- how will I fit the rudder servo so that the push rod can't be seen above the deck? Tricky, as the stern end is shallow and solid.

Stay tuned for answers to these and other as-yet-unseen exciting challenges!
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on May 19, 2008, 12:45:40 PM
Glen,
G'day
Congratulations on upcoming teacherhood ;D

I don't know if the title has to be awarded by Martin - but I would vote you a Great Antipodean Planker (GAP)!

Also the first planking looks very neat - don't beat yourself up over ridges, etc so long as they don't throw the second planking
If you need to sand  - even right through  - it isn't a big problem - just add patches on the inside (balsa planks or sheet) and carry on to the second planking.

Your drilling idea is good - can I add a suggestion that goes with it?  (Nicked for Harold Underhill)
Instead of pinning - use bamboo treenails to hold it all together (he dips them in "knotting" as a glue - I would suggest PVA or balsa cement)  Then cut off ends when dry with nail clippers or sidecutters and they will look like the treenails they are!  Super scale!
(I can offer a fast way to reduce barbie skewers to 1mm bamboo dowel fast if it would help)

Drainage of deck - both your plans would work well - but scale water is not available - and the larger the freeing area the better to
clear the decks.
<<will my drop keel be deep / heavy enough for the job, or do I have to redesign it>>  Suck it and see!  It will certainly work for (up to) some wind speed.  If you need more righting moment  - drill a couple of holes in the bottom of the keel and bolt on a lead "stormweight"  >.
<<how much longer can I put off the purchase of below decks servo winch and running gear? Not long I suspect...>> True
<<how will I fit the rudder servo so that the push rod can't be seen above the deck? Tricky, as the stern end is shallow and solid.>>
 I believe that your rudder post is angled - use ballljoints for connecting to the servo.  Move the rudder servo forward till you can (just) reach it and the linkage through your deck access.  Make the pushrod stiff enough to avoid bending when its pushing - bit of arrow shaft or 10mm dowel from the hardware store.   
You could, if necessary operate the tiller above deck (it does have a tiller, dunnit?) with cables in scale fashion using the servo as a winch with a drum.
Best idea might be to fit a small double ended tiller under the deck (even if you have to recess the solid a bit) and use two cables in pull/pull format to operate the rudder - this only needs a sliver of space.  If you do this make sure that the servo horn is exactly the same width and the rudder arm and use nonsrtetch cable

Keep up the good work, collect your scroll, keep us posted and enjoy!

andrew





 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on July 16, 2008, 07:11:21 AM
Just in case you all thought I'd given up and treated Lialeeta to a viking's funeral, a quick update.

Planking is easily the most tedious aspect of this project. I am busting to get on with interesting things like masts, electronics, sails, fittings and rigging. But I am enslaved to the planks, 4mm at a time. But I soldier on. As you will see from the pics I am just about there. I've been using Sapelle 4mm x 1 mm for the second planking. Think twice if you are considering it for your project, it is very brittle and has proven less than willing to be drilled and pinned without splitting and snapping. Much of the roughness you will see is the result of this timber's propensity to break apart. I will be filling all the gaps you can see, and of course painting the hull so hopeully she won't look as rough out the other end as she does now!

Quick tip that may be of use to someone out there - note the cork and rubber band configuration. This has been a very successful method for bringing downward pressure onto planks which proved difficult to pin and inaccessible to clamps. The cork doesn't seem to get glued to the plank by mistake, which is just as well.

all for now.

Glen

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: barryfoote on July 16, 2008, 08:07:41 AM
Glen,

I like that cork idea. I have plank built quite a few models and never heard of it before...She is coming along nicely....Keep it up..

Barry
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on July 16, 2008, 04:50:56 PM
Glen,

Good planking, creative use of corks, but don't you miss it from yer hat?

Looking very nice, and your decision to do another layer has evidently been a good one.  What glue are you doing the second layer with?  Still the epoxy?

She has lovely lines - and they are appearing as you get the hull nearer to final shape.
Please keep us regaled with pics

Depending on the glue you are using, planks can be made pliable by soaking in hot water (not with epoxy), warming them up dry or in extreme cases sticking them to sticky tape (on the outside) so that they are held together and persuaded not to split
Wisdom of hindsight - lime (bass to americans), cedar and balsa are "friendly" woods to plank in. 

andrew

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on July 18, 2008, 12:53:57 AM
"don't you miss it from yer hat?" ;D

Glue-wise, after all my agonising early on in the build, I ended up using white glue / PVA for the whole thing so far. No apparent probs I can see, nice and easy to work with.

Re planking timber, I wanted something harder than balsa. Unfortunately model boating is not as popular here as it is in the UK, so model shops don't keep much in the way of useful bits and pieces for us, including timber. That's really why I'm using the Sapelle, it was in plentiful, cheap, local supply. But you live and learn I suppose - plenty of suppliers on the internet.

Anyway, why am I sitting here when there's planking to be done?
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on August 28, 2008, 02:15:52 PM
Glen,

Ping!  Howsit down under, Teach?

My daughter has just returned to the profession - we shall have to see how that goes

How goes the planking?  How goes the whole boat?

I'm just about to embark on planking my PT boat - you have taught me all I need to know ;D
(3/8 x 1/8 balsa)
andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on September 16, 2008, 12:48:16 AM
Yes, hello shipwrights all, it has been a while hasn't it?

In fact I have been picking away Lialeeta, though progress feels measurable in micrometers rather than meters. The trouble is I did my usual trick of putting her aside and picking up one of my other boats and doing some major repairs (in this case I re-built the entire steering apparatus on my Loyal Moderator to stop the very troubling amount of leakage I was getting. Happy to report this was successful).

When we last saw our hero,  he was preparing for the final assault on the planking. I am now delighted to report that the planking on the hull is complete (pause for cheers and whistles). I have filled the pin holes and gaps with car body filler, and sanded the whole lot back now, and she's looking good for the next stage. Which is bulwarks. I lied about finishing the planking, these will still have to be done.

At this stage of the build, I am being teased by the thought that what I have in my hands, if I want it, is a perfect plug to make a fibreglass hull from. I am slightly tempted, as it would give me reduced hull weight (which is potentially a problem) and extra space for bits and pieces 'neath decks.  On the down side I've never done it before, and if I stuff it up then I potentially have nothing to show for my labours. Hmm - on reflection I am leaning toward soldiering on as is, but may read up on the mold building process meantime. I would welcome any thoughts...

I have also put together the rudder gear, which you can see in attached pic. I would dearly love to be able to solder my own brasswork, but in this case I had it done for me at an engineering works. It is so important that the join on the rudder is strong and true, so best not left up to me. Anyway, that all seems to bolt on as planned. I have also bought a rudder servo and a drum winch servo, which I'll be mounting after I fit the bulwarks, prior to fitting the deck.

Hey, a quick question on the electronics (being a complete dolt with all things electronic) - the literature that came with both the servos describe their performance "at 4.8 Volts". Is it logical to deduce that I need a 4.8 Volt battery to run them...? 

So it's full steam (sail) ahead!

Next time you hear from me I will likely have a new shipmate on deck (our second baby is due in a few weeks), and will have to change my forum photo. If I remember correctly, babies are less than generous with the time they allow for boat-building, so best have a productive turn in the meantime.

bye for now,
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on September 18, 2008, 01:08:09 PM
Glen

Thanx for the update, and when appropriate "Welcome to the new 4th mate" and real congrratulations to the mother!

Boat looks great!  Rudder too!
You can safely make a mould from it in papie mache if you just cover it with cling filn/kitchen film/whatever you wrap sandwiches with in Oz  (I know that you wrap them in Australians, but before that)   I use cling film to make hulls from plugs like this  - that's how Volante got made.

You logic and powers of deduction are impeccable - you can run all servos on 4.8V and the vastest majority on 6V too (four disposable batteries or 5 NimH) (if interested most are reasonably happy, if a bit lethargic, at 3.5 V as well).   I hesitate to suggest reading the fine manual, but normally the box or leaflet give speed/power/torque at both 4.8V and 6V.  Lots more power at 6v, lots more current drawn - some of my servos are terribly jittery with 6V.

What servos did you get?  And is it one for the rudder, one for the sails?

Great antipodean planker - I have studied at your feet and have this to offer as a specimen
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/higgins%2078foot/DSC04154.jpg)

We look forward to your updates as and when they happen - as you say time evaporates with an infant in the house

regards
andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on September 23, 2008, 01:01:09 AM
Is this the fabled PT Boat hull? She's looking very sharp - will you fill that section with a carved solid balsa block? Or have you another crafty trick up your sleeve? What scale is she going to be?

For Lialeeta I am running a drum winch servo and a rudder servo on a two-channel system. They are both Hi Tec parts, sold to me by someone I trust absolutely when it comes to all things boat parts. The whole circuit is still a bit of a mystery to me yet, but will get hold of the appropriate battery and then I'm sure it will all come together. Or not. In which case you'll be hearing from me here.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on September 24, 2008, 09:08:16 PM
Fabled?
I would go with notorious - The bow is now filled with block glued in with PU glue and now it is tidied up it looks quite convincing
scale is 1/32 - so figures this scale or 1/35 should be available

Hitec is good stuff - they make no losers (IMHO) - keep us posted when you can - one advantage of sleeplessness is that you can nip inot the build area and glue in three bits in quiet moments.

andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on September 28, 2008, 08:14:30 AM
Speaking of figures, I have been trying to order some from George Turner models (a UK company). I sent them two emails and have never heard back from them. Are they still in existence???

I've hit a major snag with Lialeeta. Turns out the drum servo doesn't fit in the hull space available. No matter which way I site the servo, it pops out above deck level. I cannot get a clean run for both the servo wheel and the control lines. This is obviously a bit of a blow - and I suppose it's the price you pay for buying bits as you go.

Not quite sure how to proceed from here. My options are:
1) abandon the project and never speak of it again. (tempting)
2) abandon the project and start again in a larger scale (not sure I have the spirit for a second go)
3) fit the deck at the height of the gunwhales, instead of at the planned deck height - this would buy me an additional 20mm of height below decks and would solve the servo problem.

I'm probably leaning toward option 3 - though it means I can't build the boat I had in mind. It means I would just build a ship with clean decks (ie. no detailing), and write her off as a learning experience on a journey to greater things.

Dunno. Of course I'm always willing to hear ideas from this learned forum.

I think I need counselling....


 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on September 28, 2008, 08:36:44 AM
Hi Glen

If you look at JayDee's bluenose, I think he has his drum inside one of the deck houses/cabins. The sheet then runs out through a hole in the deck housing. There after it runs across the top of the deck, like many other types of competitiion yacht.

You will find the Bluenose on here, but the info about the winches is on Jaydee's Website I think.

You could try a PM to him.

I think this would work for you.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on September 28, 2008, 12:27:05 PM
Couldn't find details on his website, but you've broken the log-jam in my mind and inspired me to go on. I can mount the drum servo under the main hatch, run the sheets out of a hole/s in the hatch coaming to the desired place via a series of sheaves along the deck.  As you say, like a racing yacht. It's so crazy it just might work!

Gawd bless ya TT.

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: JayDee on September 28, 2008, 05:47:57 PM
Hello Glen,

The attached drawing show how the sheets are set up on my Schooner.
I too thought they were shown on my website !!.
If there are ANY sheets under the deck, which are hard to reach THEY will be the ones to give you trouble.
Seen folk near to tears trying to fix thing under decks, not to be recommended ! !.

John.  ;)
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: amdaylight on September 29, 2008, 03:03:01 AM
Glenn,

You have picked a pretty vessel to build.  O0 O0 One quick question, where did you get the plans from, this is one that I think that I want to put in the to be built queue.

Andre
over here in Portland Oregon
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on September 29, 2008, 10:07:57 AM
Glen,

You are in the best hands with the winch layout and advice, etc. 
For various reasons I did not read this thread for several days but would have proposed the same solution to your winch issue - Volante has two winches mounted about deck level with their drums in the deck house and (at least initially) the strings above deck running round homemade turnaround pulleys.

As a thought, but not a preferred option, winches can be laid horizontally, so that the drum works vertically if that helps with the space.  ( the drum will always be winding a closed loop, so this layout can work OK)

Surprised you have not had response fron George Turner (when you posted) ; I have always had swift response and superb service by phone and email.  Possibly he has had several shows and allowed a backlog to build.  If there is anything I can do at this end, like phoning, or relaying your enquiry, just let me know.

Best wishes with family and ketch

andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: JayDee on September 29, 2008, 10:46:59 AM

Hello Andrew,

Engineers of the World united  !!!

John.  O0
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on September 29, 2008, 12:15:14 PM
Thanks all for your thoughts on this quandary of mine.

John - thank you so much for your sketches here, that is extremely useful to me. It confirms the picture I had in my head after TT's post. Just one thing - can you clarify for me, when you talk about 'top lid' and 'bottom lid', are you talking about a special box you make to house the winch drum, or are you referring to the cabin fitting under which you have mounted the servo? Or something else, perhaps? (your Bluenose is magnificent, by the way. No other word for her).

Andre in Oregon - hi there, yes, she is a lovely looking boat. I'm pleased that the lines of the hull are shaping up like they are supposed to (so far!). The plans can be bought online from a Melbourne-based company called Float-A-Boat - http://www.floataboat.com.au/. Just have a look through their plans catalogue on the website. I also know that the Tasmanian Maritime Museum (http://www.maritimetas.org/) have plans for sale of a sister ship of Lialeeta, the May Queen. I've inspected these, they are very similar to the set I have with one important difference: May Queen still exists, and I have about 50 photos of her that I'd be happy to share with you. They are proving invaluable with my current project.

Andrew - I did try the servo from all angles without any luck. My plan was always to hide the running rigging beneath the deck, but I am happily disabused of this notion now! I'm even more puzzled about GT models after your comment. P'raps I'll give him a call.

(No sign of the new third mate as yet - though judging by the size of its mother, shouldn't be long now).
 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: dave301bounty on October 07, 2008, 07:55:38 PM
Hi, this is a double of the ketch   Enid   this does the whitsunday classic sailing on the northern tip of Aussie ,my son has just come back from a fasinating trip ,.well done to you in your build , re Dave ,.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on October 08, 2008, 01:07:57 PM
Yes, was up there myself recently and saw those ketches - had the very same thought.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on October 28, 2008, 12:07:05 PM
First things first - our baby boy was finally born on the 18th of this month. Both he and his mum are doing well, and our home is fuller and busier than it has ever been.   :-)

Just as importantly (at least in this forum), in the lead up to the birth, and the subsequent time off work, I have actually managed to move Lialeeta forward.

Very briefly, I've finished the deck (1mm ply, planking drawn on with a black ballpoint pen, stained with mahogany and varnished - not yet mounted), mounted the rudder and winch servos (and I think managed to make a reasonable fist of JayDee's box - see pics), installed the stanchions that will eventually be planked and become bulwarks (I'll have to fit the deck first, or I strongly suspect it won't go on past the bulwarks), made and installed chain plates from brass rods, cut the mast steps from aluminium tubing and cut the masts themselves (these are from strong, straight Tasmanian Oak Dowel - seemed apprpriate on this vessel), and cut the bowsprit and fitted it with my own brass hand-made mastbands to hold the stays and bobstays.

All up I'm feeling very satisfied with myself. I'm ready to fit the deck, paint the hull, build cabins and hatches and then start rigging her up.

Just wanted to refer a few things to this august forum.

1. As you'll see from above, the winch servo and running rigging will be sited above the decks, not below as I had orginally envisioned. I've searched the forum but not really been enlightened on the subject of tackle for running rigging.
- I know I can buy working brass blocks, though they are pricey-ish. Are they worth it?
- Some people seem to use conduit tubing from garden watering systems and such - doesn't strike me as an above-deck solution...?
At this stage I am planning to use brass eyelets, screwed into the timber frames, to run the sheets around the deck. Does this sound workable? Other ideas?

2. Water-proofing the hull at the deck join seems tricky. I've decided to run a bead of clear bathroom silicone around the join, then screw the deck down to the hull frames on top of the silicone. That should do the trick, right?

3. The hull is wooden planking, filled here and there with car-body filler. For the painting process I'm thinking:
- coat of fibreglass resin (I dunno...seems like a good idea for strength and water-proofing)
- couple of coats of primer
- 3 top coats of enamel spray paint

Your advice and ideas on issues at 1, 2 and/or 3 most welcome.

And that's where I'm up to. I'll pop a few pics on for you to see how she's looking too.

all for now, Glen

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: amdaylight on October 28, 2008, 07:02:43 PM
1. As you'll see from above, the winch servo and running rigging will be sited above the decks, not below as I had originally envisioned. I've searched the forum but not really been enlightened on the subject of tackle for running rigging.
- I know I can buy working brass blocks, though they are pricey-ish. Are they worth it?


Yes, I would use the working blocks as a nonworking solution will cause the line to fray and eventually break(usually at the worst possible moment  >>:-().

- Some people seem to use conduit tubing from garden watering systems and such - doesn't strike me as an above-deck solution...?
At this stage I am planning to use brass eyelets, screwed into the timber frames, to run the sheets around the deck. Does this sound workable? Other ideas?


Yes it sounds like it would work it just may not look right or properly finished, if it was my model I would wait a couple of weeks till I could afford the proper fittings so it not only worked right but looked right on display.

2. Waterproofing the hull at the deck join seems tricky. I've decided to run a bead of clear bathroom silicone around the join, then screw the deck down to the hull frames on top of the silicone. That should do the trick, right?

Yes it would, but since this is a sailing model and you will not need to get into the hull spaces I would glue the deck to the frame with epoxy, as a sailing model it may have one or the other of the rails in the water as it heels over. Since all of your servos will be either in a deck house or under a deck house there is no real need to have the main deck removable.

3. The hull is wooden planking, filled here and there with car-body filler. For the painting process I'm thinking:
- coat of fiberglass resin (I dunno...seems like a good idea for strength and waterproofing)
- couple of coats of primer
- 3 top coats of enamel spray paint


I would also put a coat of resin on the inside of the hull to prevent water from soaking into the wood from the inside, if the planking gets wet either from the outside or the inside it will still expand and eventually crack the outer finish. I also coat the underside of the deck before I glue it in place just so there is no raw wood there either .
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on October 29, 2008, 09:52:31 AM
Glen,
Glad to hear your news and view your industry

Welcome to your new son, and congratulations to all of you, especially your wife :}

I have finally caught on - the "ketches" you are speaking of are a kind of rig.  I had thought it was the result of australian fishing expeditions ;-}

Great work on Lialeeta - you have been a busy and successful boy!
You have good answers already - my modest contribution is

. As you'll see from above, the winch servo and running rigging will be sited above the decks, not below as I had orginally envisioned. I've searched the forum but not really been enlightened on the subject of tackle for running rigging.
- I know I can buy working brass blocks, though they are pricey-ish. Are they worth it?
- Some people seem to use conduit tubing from garden watering systems and such - doesn't strike me as an above-deck solution...?
At this stage I am planning to use brass eyelets, screwed into the timber frames, to run the sheets around the deck. Does this sound workable? Other ideas?

The winch will drive one or more closed loops - these need to be turned round somewhere.  The ideal is a working pulley, preferably in a scale-like material and construction.  The minimum is a brass screw-eye with the loop cord running through it!
I wouldn't go for eyelets - they are sharp one side and will eventually fray the cord.  Given the universality of Murphy's law guess where the boat will be at that moment :}. (will it be upwind with a calm sea?)
I would (modestly) suggest that however you plan to finally run the running rigging; first use a working (simple) layout to get experience and iron out the challenges.  If you are feeling very sensible making a jig out of scrap that mimics the full-size layout will add to your self-confidence.
I made a big brig rig jig to do this - it convinced me!  (BTW I had a 1-turn winch which produces a travel of 4 inches (100mm))

(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/Brig/DSC02238.jpg)
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/Brig/DSC02228.jpg)


Fwiw for Volante I am splitting the difference and making two pulleys using my kitchen-table methods and I expect them to pass muster for function and appearance.
I will sketch and post them later - alter materials, techniques to suit your stock bin and skill set

I realise I am assuming a closed loop from the winch drum with your sheets attached to the sides of the loop.  It is possible (but not enormously easy to get different travels for various sheets)  Much simpler to accept same travel on all sheets, and adjust the point of sheeting (esp on the booms)  to work with that travel!


2. Water-proofing the hull at the deck join seems tricky. I've decided to run a bead of clear bathroom silicone around the join, then screw the deck down to the hull frames on top of the silicone. That should do the trick, right?

Yes, that will do the trick.  as amdaylight says you will seldom have to go under the deck again - but this way you would be able to (at least in theory)

3. The hull is wooden planking, filled here and there with car-body filler. For the painting process I'm thinking:
- coat of fibreglass resin (I dunno...seems like a good idea for strength and water-proofing)
- couple of coats of primer
- 3 top coats of enamel spray paint

Good thinking,  - nowt wrong with that, and the suggestion of dolloping resin on the inside is good, too.  In any case after a sail you were planning to remove hatches and give her a good airing, werent you?

Keep up the great work, as and when; and keep us posted
andrew



Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on October 30, 2008, 11:29:18 PM
Oops, to clarify, I actually meant screw-eyes, not eyelets. The more I reflect, the more I am inclined to go with screw eyes. I realise that they won't look scale, but then I'm not aiming for full detailed scale finish to display standard. I'm really interested in something a bit more straightforward than that, that will sail well and look good on the water. I'm taking inspiration from a yawl at my club which took a similar approach and looks great under sail. So I have some small screw eyes that I've primed and finished in black so they don't stand out too much.

As to running rigging - I'm not planning to use a closed loop, but rather just sheets that wind on and off the drum - if you know what I mean. All sheets will travel the same length, again for simplicity's sake (though I like the idea of fixing to different parts of the boom to adjust travel, thanks Andrew). There is a part of me that is toying with fixed foresails - that is, set up to travel on a horse, but not actually rigged onto the winch. I wonder whether this is possible or desirable?  Just thinking out loud...

amdaylight - thanks so much for your thoughts. I've now thoroughly coated the inside with resin. Ain't no water gettin' in or outta there, I can tell ya. I painted the underside of the deck with timber sealer, as I thought resin would crack when it came time to fit the deck, due to the high degree of sheer. I'm going to go with plan (a) and use silicone, but only because I had already bought some. I guess I was just testing the water in case anyone said 'Silcone!!! Whetever you do DON'T USE SILICONE!'. Which happily didn't happen  :-).

Andrew - what can I say? "big brig rig jig" - you're a genius. I'd be interested to see some more detail on the way you've fitted topmasts there, as it's something I'm thinking about at the moment too. Was thinking of making a wooden platform (maintop?) similar to what you have there, or maybe even attempting something from brass tubing. Dunno. Also, how have you fixed your bowsprit? I've screwed mine onto the actual deck, but I'm worried that it still won't bear the load. I might fix it onto the stem as well, I'd like to hear what others have done.

anyway plenty to be going on with. Until next time.
 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on November 02, 2008, 11:42:12 AM
Hi Glen

Congrats on the new shipmate.

The model is coming on great guns and really taking shape nicely.

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on November 13, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
Glen,

Sorry about delay, but you were no doubt changing a nappy anyway

With a sail winch I believe you need either a closed loop OR elastic tensioners to avoid the dreaded buggle round the drum - right out in the tasman sea as well.

The  winch needs a little tension kept on the line it is winding - I have seen this done with fishermans pole elastic - just to keep a light tension on the line.  JayDee has wound more sheets on his drums that politicians tell "statements of variable accuracy"

My "tops" I did like full size.  Trestle trees were cut from 1/8 ply including the cheeks which fit aslongside the mast, and the cross trees coffee stirrers.  The Top is 1/32 ply with drawn planks.  Where scale and I part is that I have screwed the trestle trees to the lower masts through the cheeks of the trestletree (I needed screweyes there anyway for the braces :})
The mast cap is a bit of satsuma ply (salvaged from orange boxes) with a square hole for the top of the lower mast.   
Top mast is also retained by a screw - very fine self-tapper salvaged out of dismantled computer drives
Couple of pics - let me know if you would like to see anything specific
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/Brig/DSC02154.jpg)
foretop
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/Brig/DSC02156.jpg)
maintop with gaff
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/Brig/DSC02261.jpg)
One of the topmast doublings - not complete - the trees are missing

andrew

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on February 26, 2009, 11:43:12 AM
Well after being inundated by literally two personal messages, it's high time I updated this build. I have been watching in great distress as Lialeeta fell further and further down the MM leaderboard.

You will be pleased to know that despite my recent silence and the best efforts of my demanding children, I have actually been getting some building done. Lialeeta is a lot further advanced and things are steaming (sailing?) ahead at a rate of knots.

Since last I updated, I've:

- fitted the deck and screwed it down - using silcone as planned. I would give anything to be able take back the moment I decided to screw the deck down with countersunk screws - the heads detract from the deck finish terribly. But what's done is done, and at least the fitting is strong and should be watertight. Please be nice and don't mention it again.

- planked the bulwarks - easily the most straightforward job of the build to date, and maybe the first thing that went more or less as I had planned. I've filled the gaps on these with car filler in preparation for painting.

- fitted bulwark capping. this was exactly as fiddly and irritating as I had anticipated it would be. I had planned to use ply for this but that was beyond my poor skills and tools, so in the end I used 1mm styrene sheet (I absolutely love working with that stuff). I turned the hull upside down and traced the shape directly onto card, from which I was easily able to make templates and then the capping itself. It has taken a bit of filing and sanding and and cursing and sweating, but the finished rails will do the job.

- fitted coamings over the three deck access hatches. Again I just used styrene sheet (1.5 mm this time) sealed on with two-part epoxy resin for strength. I find that for a snug fit nothing beats measuring parts directly off the hatchway itself.

- fitted the boards and wheel over the transom. This was a piece I had prebuilt and then glued on. If you look at the photos you'll see there is a little 'jump up' along the rail height at the stern here. This is not on the original vessel, but that was the extra height I needed to get the boards and wheel over the steering push-rod, which sits above the deck. All up it's not ideal, but nonetheless I'm pretty happy with the way it has gone so far.

- built and fitted the aft cabin. For me this is fun stuff, putting fittings together and making them look convincing. This is built from styrene (walls) and stained ply (roof). The portholes are commercial ones - and I came across a top tip elsewhere in this forum for glazing - simply lie the portholes on plastic wrap, fill them with PVA and let them dry - voila! Great looking glass windows. The planking on the cabin walls was scored on with a modelling knife. I've had to leave a big ugly hole for the steering push rod to pass through, as the servo sits under this cabin - you can clearly see this on one photo. Not ideal, but it works.

- bult a main hatch cover. The plans call for boards and a centreboard windlass. In the interests of ease and robustness, I've chosen to delete the windlass altogether and make a tarpaulin instead. Nothing I could say here would improve on Mark's Mary J Ward build where he sets out in typically thorough and clear detail a method for making a very effective tarp cover. What is more he is more than happy to coach one on one when you get stuck! Historical note - older ships would have had brown tarps (as does Lialeeta), newer ships green ones (apparently). As the running rigging will come out the side of this hatch from the winch, a slot has been left in the appropriate place. The hole through the coaming is a fair way up the side, which I'm hoping will keep things dry below wen decks are awash.

- built a cuddy for'ard from styrene sheeting, same sort of method as the aft cabin, though with a curved styrene roof.

I have also built the masts and topmasts, though I will go into more detail on these when they are a bit further along and I can take some decent photos of them.

The next thing I have to do I have been putting off for ages, and that is sorting out the drop keel. If you look above you will see that I did make a brass keel and bulb, but with time and experience and discussions with old salts at my club, I now realise this is laughably inadequate for the task at hand. So I have procured a 300mm sheet of brass, and am going to cut out a new keel of a sensible length from that. I'll be able to attach the bulb I've already made, and (hopefully) make a fitting that will bolt snugly into the keel-box in the hull. I'm then going to glue thin sheets of polystyrene to the brass so I can shape an aerofoil, which I'll finish in fibreglass matting and resin for strength. I'll be sure and take photos of that process and post them for your interest (assuming it works, which btw I'm not).

My next task will be to paint the hull and then - for the first time - I'll get her in the water and see how she sits.

I'm visiting my sail maker at the weekend to see how that job is coming along - again, more details when I have more to tell.

So that's me - I think we'll make some leaps and bounds from here, what with painting, water testing and rigging her up. So be sure to watch this space for more updates.

Glen
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on February 26, 2009, 12:51:23 PM
Glen,

You have quietly worked wonders down there! 
Thanks for the update and the pictures - we like what you show us :-))

Certainly I won't mention the Csk screws (other than to say that if you replaced them with brass woodscrews they would be invisible in a few weeks as the patina happens)

You are not very far from sailing - at least the test floats - you have been building your ketch under a bushel.

There is just one point I must take exception to - not least cos you are a teecher :}
You have spelled Voila (sic) correctly
On the  web, and in emails there are three words which must be spelled incorrectly:
Viola!
guage
flourescent
At least I have never seen the last two spelled in any other way :}

Worry not about the keel - you will get it right and it will probably not be crucial. 
If you were nearer I would offer you a keel blank of 316L stainless 
Don't bother with fairing the keel sides until you have made tests and sorted out the right length, weight and position - you may have to make some adjustments and the styrene might make it more challenging.

Good building, parenting and teeching :}
andrew
"Galvanised to finish the unfinished, explore the unknown and revisit the very basic in my 61st year"
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 24, 2009, 12:17:30 PM
This will be brief as the internet just ate my longer response. I know, I know, I should have learned this lesson by now...

I have a few things to update you on.

Firstly the problem of the keel, which you will recall was exercising me.

I have taken a rather unorthodox approach,  though it seems to work. You may recall that I had cut a piece of brass plate for the drop-keel which fit snugly into a slot cut into the keel, but it was too small for the job. I had a piece of marine ply left over form something else which was a good size for the job, so I trimmed it up and cut a notch into the top of it, into which the brass plate is bolted. Then the whole is fixed into the keel slot and ta da! Job done.

It is a large drop-keel (I was conscious of the large sail area Lialeeta will have that will need to be balanced off), and may yet present problems with steering, but we’ll duck under that bridge when we come to it. 

A picture will tell the other 813 words.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 24, 2009, 12:21:48 PM
And here is a picture of the keel fitted in place, so you’ll really see what I was driving at.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 24, 2009, 12:35:10 PM
Ok, as you will have guessed from the last pic, I've now painted the hull - white over red oxide seems to be pretty standard for these ketches. I did have a rather ill-advised experiment with painting the rubbing strake green (green??) but it looked dreadful so I un-greened it quick smart.

Not sure what I can add to the collective wisdom on painting. Couple of things that may be of interest:
• I painted her in high gloss enamel car spray paint, finished with a few coats of satin varnish to take the shine off
• When masking up I used foil and masking tape – that is a huge improvement on trying to do the job with newspaper and masking tape
• Because my time is at a premium these days, I found I was leaving days and days between applying coats, which has lead to a much better finish. Normally I rush painting, as I’m impatient to see the result, but the result is better if you can leave it alone for a while.

I also did the name decals using those fabulous vinyl stick-on letters from BECC, sealed with varnish. I haven’t used these before, they are brilliant. They look great, are easy to use and not too pricey.

I also bought some BECC vinyl strips to make up the boot topping (?) above the red oxide. Once again, I can recommend this as an approach for a great result to anyone who is considering trying to get a fine even line using tape and spray paint (big mistake - voice of experience).

These photos show Lialeeta on her first time in the water (the neighbour’s pool). I was very happy with her trim, though she needs a little ballasting forward. There was some minor leakage around the keel box which I’ve addressed with silicone. But all up I thought she sat very prettily indeed. Not bad considering the total absence of science in the drop-keel and lead weight.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 24, 2009, 12:36:19 PM
and another one
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 24, 2009, 12:49:37 PM
The last thing I have for show and tell tonight is this suit of sails, lovingly hand made by my friend Ally from homespun cotton. These look terrific, as you can see, and the cotton will hang very nicely when they are bent on. She has gone to some trouble to replicate the seams on each sail, which sets them off nicely, and I know will look very authentic on the water.

Now it’s over to old fat-fingers himself (me) to sew on bolt rope and fix eyelets. I have started working on rigging up the masts, though I have yet to start gaffs and booms – that’s next.

Getting close to launch day now, methinks. I originally estimated this was an 18 month  build, and if I can get on the water by June that will have been a very accurate guess.

You may now consider yourself up to date on Lialeeta!
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on April 24, 2009, 02:45:37 PM
She is coming along really nicely.

What will you be dressing your sails with?
I got some nikwax cotton waterproofer, made for cotton clothing. As recomended by others. I am nowhere near sails for mine yet, and so can only pass on the advice givem to me, but not verify it.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on April 28, 2009, 12:46:15 PM
Glen,

Coming along wonderfully :-))
Boat and sails look spot on for both appearance and sailability
Please cherish your friend Ally - there is a second career there if she chose :}

Anent bolt ropes - there is a lazy effort-economic method which affixes the bolt rope with PVA glue, lets dry, then does the oversewing with the sail and rope in the correct relationship (thus needing only 3 or 4 hands).  My version of this would be to run a fine bead of PVA on the sail, let dry completely then iron on the B rope - all the PVA, aliphatic goos are thermoplastic.

This probably too late - you will have progressed a lot in the cold, dark antipodean winter and be sailing her before posting the pics.

rgds,

andrew

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 28, 2009, 01:06:30 PM
Andrew - It's as though I was channeling you through the aura of the universe. In fact I conducted some scientifical experimentationisms vis-a-vis the relationship between PVA and bolt rope and discovered that they get on very well indeed. In point of fact I was not able to seperate them once they were dried. Sewing? Pffft. I have already glued my bolt ropes on, not sure I see the need for sewing too. Seems unnecessary and superfluous.

And one day, a long long long time from now, I may be able to bring myself to tell you about how I glued the bolt rope to some sails on the correct (ie. left) side, and some on the incorrect (ie. right) side. One day. Not today though, because I'm not really ready yet to face up to such a stupid and careless error which was entirely due to me watching the telly while I did the glueing.  <:(

I forgot to mention that I have fixed up the other unmentionable (the unsightly countersunk screws on the deck). I removed them, tarted up the mess with some matched colour putty, and replaced them with brass screws as you suggested, vast improvement. So the universe is in balance after all.

And to Mark's question about waterproofing - I found a rather neat looking silicone based product that the kindly old ladies at the haberdashery thought would do the trick: http://www.selleys.com.au/Selleys-Watershield/default.aspx I will let you know how that goes too.



 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on April 28, 2009, 01:44:43 PM
Glen,
I think you must be a happy medium, but you probably knew I woud say that

Andrew -
Seems unnecessary and superfluous.

Yes, he does. 
I think I have told you before about stamping out and abolishing redundancy :D
(and avoiding cliches like the plague)

Glen, Glen. 
Since we don't yet know about your glueing the bolt rope we don't have to point out that we (poor) men are one-thought-at-a-time animals and can't multi-task as we govern the universe

PVA will not hold forever - a bit of lazy couching (technical term, but can reflect a lifestyle too) will ensure they stay together

andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on April 29, 2009, 02:00:55 AM
Ok, Ok, I'll sew them on too, jeez, I knew you'd have me in stitches (did I really write that?).

Only a true pedant would have picked up that intentional redundancy. I therefore think your temperament is perfectly suited to model building.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: RC Sailboat Guide on May 01, 2009, 01:41:11 PM
Wow, she looks great. Basically from around the corner (I live in Sydney).

Really looking forward to see some pictures of her in action  :-))
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on May 04, 2009, 04:21:35 AM
A question about PVA for B ropes.

Would any dye, or dressing affect the PVAs stickablitly.

I assume the PVA might affect the take of dye or dressing.

I am thinking about the order to do these tasks in, or am I worrying about nothink
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on May 04, 2009, 09:42:56 AM
Hi RC Sailboat Guide, and welcome. Assuming she doesn't turn turtle or head for the bottom (big assumption, btw), I am looking forward to seeing her in action too. Might be as early as June, our winter (though winter is a a lot easier in Brissie than it is in Sydney).

I'm afraid I don't have an answer on TT's question. I've not been dying the B ropes - though I don't imagine that dye would affect the gluing qualities of the PVA...?

For shrouds and stays I am using something called black hat elastic. It is thicker than the shirring elastic some people use, and much easier to use. I sew 'splices' in cotton, wrapping really well so the join is bound up good and tight, a drop of cyano, and when dry I finish it with black heat shrink. Will post some detail pics in time, but looks good to me.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has experience of the long term performance of hat elastic. my fear is it will lose much tension after repeated wetting and drying. If I had to replace it every two years I could probably live with it. But if I had to tie new standing rigging every week or two...
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on May 04, 2009, 12:40:57 PM
TT,

No, you are not worryink about nohtink and Timing, as ever is crucial
Dyes and stains generally are absorbed into (sometimes onto) a material and then behave as part of the material - ie when it is dry you can do anything to it that you could before it was dyed/stained

Glues, including PVA and cyano will seal the surface of the base material, and prevent any dye or stain later applied from "taking" to the base material - if you have ever planked a hull then stained it you will have seen the effect :}

So always dye before gluing

Glen
Hat elastic for shrouds and stays?  Are they non-functional - ie not holding up the mast?
Basic answer on life is that it depends on the specific rubber they are made with  - if it is natural rubber (normal and best) then probably two summers.
Natural can't stand light, ozone or temperature and will crack then "revert" when it has had enough.
To find out remove some of the covering - you will prolly find several strands of round white elastic (rubber). 
Hold one in a flame briefly - does it smell like burning rubber?
Try stretching one - natural CAN reach 7 or 800% stretch and will go "solid" as it reaches the end (this is "crystallisation")

Dunno if this helps you, but you will get some funny looks, especially if your lady wife is wearing the hat at the time
andrew

Don't evan ask about any other clothing elastic >:-o
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on June 16, 2009, 11:52:35 AM
Hello all - just the quickest of quick updates to show you a photo of Lialeeta parading some of her new sails. I'd have to say I'm pretty happy with how she looks on the water. As to whether she'll sail well, that remains to be seen. Though I can tell you that there is far too much keel and not nearly enough rudder!

More detailed descriptions and pics in the fullness of time.

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on June 16, 2009, 12:47:45 PM
Glen,

The timer was just coming up to "ping Glen" time

Looks lovely, break out champagne, share among adults present and pat self on back :}

She has a good sit on the water, and a neat understated, working colour scheme.
Beaut, mate
andrew

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on June 17, 2009, 03:04:39 AM
Looking great Glen

How is the new shipmate by the way?
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on June 25, 2009, 12:20:12 AM
He's growing big and strong thanks Mark, we'll have him in the maintop as a foremast jack before his first birthday, the way he's going.

Lialeeta is progressing, last night I fitted the mizzen sail, and it sits very nicely. Should get the mizzen topsail on this week too. (sails - tedious work or what?)

I have also been extending the rudder this week, as the little time on the water she's had already revealed a worrying disinclination to answer the helm - it was a problem I had anticipated. I'm also going to cut some bulk out of the keel to help on that score too, hopefully that will do the trick.

The last thing on my list (!) is to sort out the running rigging. I have the main and mizzen under control, they will work fine just winding on and off the winch (touch wood). But I haven't yet properly solved the problem of the foresails. I was advised by a club member to cut one out and just have two foresails for simplicity, but I wanted to retain the authentic look of the ketch. So I can either have them non-adjustable on a fixed length of sheet, or I can find a way to run them off the winch too. I'll be hitting the forum and books and the web for ideas.

Stay tuned for a solution...

More pics in due course.
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on June 25, 2009, 03:32:44 AM
Glen

Don't forget one of the cardinal rules of scientific modelling - change only 14 variables at a time :}

Suggest you give the rudder some more bite before doing owt else.  Looking at your sailing pic  - extend downward if at all possible, aft if it isn't

Glad your new offspring is making progress.  My smallest I used to refer to as my 1/4 scale model but at 14 he is now a 6/5 stand-way-off scale model of the same subject.
looking forward to seeing the fully rigged pics on the water and hearing the whoops of pleasure when she performs

andrew
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on July 23, 2009, 12:01:26 PM
I have a confession to make - I am being a terrible coward aout getting Lialeeta on the water for a sail.

She's finished (insofar as a model boat ever is, anyway...), all is in working order, yet I cannot bring myself to take her for her sea trials to the club where there will be way too much pressure. So I am screwing up my courage and will take her to a nice private dam on my father-in-law's property, where sinking and other performance shortfalls can be dealt with in peace. Weekend after this is pencilled in, watch this space.

But I get ahead of myself. I just wanted to post a few photos for you. I have to say I am very pleased with the way she has come out aesthetically, though a little rough her and there.

Let's start with the new rudder, which I extended by bolting 1mm styrene pieces on either side of the old rudder. Before and after pics for comparison.


Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on July 23, 2009, 12:09:36 PM
Ok, next things next - the running rigging.

Sssshh - don't tell my daughter, but her dacron kite line got mysteriously about ten metres shorter during the installation of running rigging. I thought if it can handle the strain of a kite, it will have no trouble with my sails.

I have all 5 controlled sails running off a single drum winch. It is a bit ambitious I suppose, but I reasoned it can always be undone if things don't work out. Lines are run along the deck via screw eyes, and fishing tackle is used for attaching lines to sails (remembering that she has to be able to be de-rigged for transporting). I actually tested the sails in the garage with the fan going full pelt, and it seems to work as planned...

Anyway as ever pictures tell the story.

 
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on July 23, 2009, 12:16:17 PM
And lastly a few photos of some detail for you. I am particularly pleased with the way the anchors came out, as I was almost not going to use them, but they do add something. Don't look too hard for a winch or a chain locker / hatch though.

I included the transmitter for scale.

Next time you hear from me - what will probably be 'the last post' so to speak - I sincerely hope to have tales of sailing glory to share.

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on July 23, 2009, 12:20:25 PM
(Couple more for good measure)
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on July 23, 2009, 12:34:33 PM
Hi Glen

Great to see the finished product.
It will be good to see pics of the maiden voyae as well, so don't forget the camera  :-))

Mark
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: kiwi on July 23, 2009, 08:12:03 PM
Hi,
A good honest working boat, very well done.
Excellent build
vnkiwi
Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: andrewh on July 24, 2009, 01:09:39 PM
Lovely job, Glen

Glad to see her well rigged and clearly raring to sail.
I'm not ENTIRELY sure why you have stowed your sandwiches in the hull but there is an awful lot of Oz culture that we never fully grok.

We look forward to the sailing pics.
No pressure,mate;  but when you have her well tuned how about a crossing of the Tasman sea?
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/Footy%20sailing/Euro%20footy%202009/DSCF1481.jpg)
My Presto and her new-found (italian) mate

andrew


Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: Glen Howard on August 09, 2009, 12:55:06 PM
Well today was the day I finally got Lialeeta out for a sail. Yesterday I went for a joy flight in a Tiger Moth - I would say I was infinitely more nervous about launching the ketch than I was about taking the flight in a plane made of linen and sticks.

What words have I to describe the mighty swelling in my heart as the sails filled for the first time and Lialeeta glided off across the dam?

Her helm answered well enough with the new rudder extension (though I still may knock some bulk out of that keel one day), and she stayed trim and stable, and righted very well indeed. Unfortunately there was practically no breeze to be had (though it was blowing a tearing gale for the flight in the Moth on Saturday, of course), yet I was able to get her to turn her nose through the wind tacking on a few occasions, which was very satisfying indeed. When the breeze did blow she ran downwind pretty briskly, and came pleasingly close to the wind coming back the other way.

Can't wait to get out again - in the public gaze this time - and continue the true pleasure of learning how to sail. I know Lialeeta is going to give me many happy hours and years of sailing.

Thanks to everyone on this forum who gave me so much advice and support during this project - I was challenged by the complexity of the build, and nearly packed it in a few times, which only made today that much more satisfying. Even so I may be going back to scale electric rather than more scale sail...though after that, who can say? It does get in your blood after a while, doesn't it?

all the best for now,

Glen

Title: Re: Tasmanian Trading Ketch 'Lialeeta'
Post by: tigertiger on August 09, 2009, 01:53:45 PM
She looks great Glen :}

You have every reason to be well and truly pleased. :} :}

Good 'un. :-))