Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Detail Work, Rigging, Fittings, Figures Etc. => Topic started by: barryfoote on March 19, 2008, 03:59:52 pm
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A bit of help needed here chaps regarding the Binnacle and telegraph on my 1890's Lady T tug.
I have bought from MMM the white metal casting for both the above but have no idea how to finish them. I know may of these instruments would have been in brass but, on a working tug?
With regards to the Telegraph, what would be the signs on it and what colour would the face have been?
Sorry about this but I want to get it as Accurate as I can,
Thanks in advance..
Barry
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Hi Barry,
Pics below may be of use. The book is John Bowen's "A Ship Modelmaker's Manual" and the colour oic is one I took on board the square rigger Balaclutha which is preserved in San Francisco and is about the same period as your model.
Colin
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Barry,
Have a look at the Ben Ain build here:
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6094.0
I have two large scale models of a binacle and a telegraph and I used photographs of the faces on them for my model. Obviously scale them, print them out and glue them onto your fittings.
I'll get the pictures later.
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A bit of help needed here chaps regarding the Binnacle and telegraph on my 1890's Lady T tug.
I have bought from MMM the white metal casting for both the above but have no idea how to finish them. I know may of these instruments would have been in brass but, on a working tug?
With regards to the Telegraph, what would be the signs on it and what colour would the face have been?
Sorry about this but I want to get it as Accurate as I can,
Thanks in advance..
Barry
Barry:
Tugs of the vintage you are doing would most definitely have had polished brass telegraphs and binnacles. I've tried four times to load a number of photos and it kicks me out each time with either too large a file aor the wrong type of file. We'll try again.
oldiron
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A bit of help needed here chaps regarding the Binnacle and telegraph on my 1890's Lady T tug.
I have bought from MMM the white metal casting for both the above but have no idea how to finish them. I know may of these instruments would have been in brass but, on a working tug?
With regards to the Telegraph, what would be the signs on it and what colour would the face have been?
Sorry about this but I want to get it as Accurate as I can,
Thanks in advance..
Barry
Barry:
Tugs of the vintage you are doing would most definitely have had polished brass telegraphs and binnacles. I've tried four times to load a number of photos and it kicks me out each time with either too large a file aor the wrong type of file. We'll try again.
oldiron
I neglected to point out the photos I posted are from the 1895 tug SS Master preserved an operating in Vancouver Canada.
I've got more shots of telegraph faces if you want more.
oldiron
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Thankyou very much guys for the advise. I have learned much from what is always a great site full of great people.
Bunkerbarge:
Those photos would be much appreciated if possible..
Barry
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Barry, These are what I used on mine.
Don't forget that the aft section faces astern so on the left side looking from stbd and on the right side looking from port.
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A couple of them going together.
Also don't forget the inside of the binacle was white to reflect the light from the lamp.
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Superb guys. Chuffed I am. Will let you all see the results..
Barry
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Hi Bunkerbarge and Footski
Ref last picture the brass stand should be in front of the wheel it would be very hard to steer like that.
Most hydraulic steering had about 3 1/2 turns each way and chain drive ones could be hard to turn at times so you dont want anything in the way.
Dave
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Should also have said The Binnacle should be also close in front of the wheel so the helmsman could see the heading to steer.
Dave again
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Chadburns is still operating, in Liverpool, delivered some tools there today.
Don't seem to make telegraphs any more.
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Bunkerbarge
did the telegraph come with the legends on the side.if not where did you get them from.
Fredy
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Hi Bunkerbarge and Footski
Ref last picture the brass stand should be in front of the wheel it would be very hard to steer like that.
Most hydraulic steering had about 3 1/2 turns each way and chain drive ones could be hard to turn at times so you dont want anything in the way.
Dave
Many thanks for pointing out the error. Could you please let me have a copy of the picture or documentation that you have which shows this?
I actually thought I have collected most of the information out there regarding this particular ship but obviously I must have missed something. The photographs I have of this ship, the excellent plan printed in CV Wains "Coasters and Short Sea traders", the original makers plans kindly copied for me by the vessels last owner "The Ramsey Steamship Company" and obviously the kit manufacturers plans must all therefore be incorrect.
Not surprisingly all these documents also clearly show the position of the binacle so that is something alse I must correct.
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Hi Bunkerbarge and Footski
Ref last picture the brass stand should be in front of the wheel it would be very hard to steer like that.
Most hydraulic steering had about 3 1/2 turns each way and chain drive ones could be hard to turn at times so you dont want anything in the way.
Dave
Many thanks for pointing out the error. Could you please let me have a copy of the picture or documentation that you have which shows this?
I actually thought I have collected most of the information out there regarding this particular ship but obviously I must have missed something. The photographs I have of this ship, the excellent plan printed in CV Wains "Coasters and Short Sea traders", the original makers plans kindly copied for me by the vessels last owner "The Ramsey Steamship Company" and obviously the kit manufacturers plans must all therefore be incorrect.
Not surprisingly all these documents also clearly show the position of the binacle so that is something alse I must correct.
Is it possible that the Binnacle is in the right place but the wheel is the wrong way round?
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Hi Barry
From 35 years at sea wheel normally close to Binnacle think of standing at wheel you need to be able to turn it all the way round without anything in the way and see the course to steer
I am talking deep see ships river craft might not need the compass close but would still need to turn the wheel.
Dave
PS See you on the 20th April
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hi there one and all
This is the only picture I can dig out at the minute, but, I am sure I may have a photograph of an 'open topped bridge' with steering wheel, binnacle shown - from when I built the Cervia - I cannot lay me hands on the pic at the min.
Just food for thought though, sometimes steering wheels were on the large side and were operated by two men. The reason for this being there was no assistance from a steam engine in the very early days; helping out with steering.
The other thing is - on many old ships they had a small steerng wheel on the 'open topped bridge' which was mechanically linked to a larger steering wheel below decks. The larger steering wheel could be dis-engaged from the steering engine and it would only be used in cases of an emergency because it could over-ride the steering engine.
aye
john
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Like I said, unless anyone has a plan that shows otherwise, I will follow all the evidence I have collected.
As Bluebird has suggested I was led to believe that such steering arrangements required two men and unless the 35 years of experience included a trip on this particular vessel I will follow the plans.
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I think Bluebird is right, having the casing behind the wheel makes it easier for two men to manage it in rough weather when there is no steering engine available. In normal conditions the helmsman would stand beside the wheel where he can see the course to steer in the binnacle. I have a picture of a square rigger showing this arrangement and it is also clearly shown in this picture of the Steam Yacht Medea of around the same vintage as Ben Ain. You can just see the binnacle.
Colin
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hi there one and all
This is the only picture I can dig out at the minute, but, I am sure I may have a photograph of an 'open topped bridge' with steering wheel, binnacle shown - from when I built the Cervia - I cannot lay me hands on the pic at the min.
aye
john
Is the picture you posted with this quote of the pilot house of one of the preserved Liberty Ships? I've been in the pilot house of the Brown and it looks just like thgis, with an open top wheel deck above. In the phot you can see the extensions going upward from the telegraph and the wheel to reach the duplicate controls above.
oldiron
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Just to add more fuel and variation to the fire, I've added some photos from "outdoor" wheels and binnacles. No pun intended on the fact they are outdoors in the picture. A chap in Meaford, Ontario is a retired Great Lakes captain. He's got a large collection of marine memorabilia on his front lawn, from life boats and davits to wheels and binnacles.
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I scrounged through my photos and found these I took on the liberty ship "John Brown". The show both the "indoo"r and "outdoor" wheel houses for those who need some more nfo on same.
oldiron
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hi there, the picture comes from the Book 'Convoy Merchant Sailors at War 1939-1945' by
Philip Kaplan and Jack Currie ISBN number 1854105515 - the image comes from SS Jeremiah O'Brien
preserved in San Francisco - it is a good book. Lot of illustrations.
Aye
john e
bluebird
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Hi Barry
From 35 years at sea wheel normally close to Binnacle think of standing at wheel you need to be able to turn it all the way round without anything in the way and see the course to steer
I am talking deep see ships river craft might not need the compass close but would still need to turn the wheel.
Dave
PS See you on the 20th April
Hi dave and good to hear from you...What I meant was that the Binnacle is right, but the ships wheel needs turning on its access so the post is on the other side. That would make things right......or am I missing something....
I think Bunkerbarge has it spot on apart from the wheel...
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Going by the original manufacturers drawing and a photograph I have the wheel on my ship is in the correct position.
For your own vessel, check the plans and position accordingly. If you haven't got plans then you will have to decide which you think is most likely.
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Here's another one the "other" way round.
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Please be very careful when fitting E/R telegraphs to a very old ship. Some of them had the "visible" dial horizontal with the handwheel on the side....a bit like the RN rev. counters they had until at least the late 1960's. One turn of the wheel would change the dial from "a" to "b" setting. On a twin screw ship this was very helpful to the "driver" as he could stand between them and control the relative engine movements without going through the malarkey of swinging a big handle. All depended on the E/R reactions of course, but pre 1920 this type was pretty common on ships that did a lot of manouvering. BY.
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Many thanks to Bunkerbarge for his photos. I have now done one of the telegraphs and you can see the result....I am quite pleased for a first effort, but if anyone can advise on getting it better, I am all ears...
Barry
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Brilliant Barry, that really looks the part. I'm glad I could be of some help.
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Brilliant Barry, that really looks the part. I'm glad I could be of some help.
Cheers. You really saved the day there. Have now aged the telegraph a little as I was not too happy with the shade of "Brass". Udes a little thinned down matt black and a cloth. Looks much better now.
Barry
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In days of old when I was an apprentice it was a dayly job to polish the telegraphs.
Port and stbd double ones for twin screw also P & S docking telegraphs to pass the order fore and aft
See you on the 20th
Dave
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Like I said, unless anyone has a plan that shows otherwise, I will follow all the evidence I have collected.
As Bluebird has suggested I was led to believe that such steering arrangements required two men and unless the 35 years of experience included a trip on this particular vessel I will follow the plans.
Sorry Bunkerbarge, I may be a bit dim but are you implying that yours is designed to be steered by 2 men?
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T o answer Bluebirds query. I have sailed on some old scows in my time, the MoD had loads. My experience was that on large helms you stood on the side and the binnacle is always forward of the wheel, but close enough for the helmsman to clearly read. The open bridge was used when in rivers etc for pilotage reasons and a nice sunny day when the OOW wants a change, otherwise you always used the lower bridge for sea passage I can remember this from my days on the St Margarets built 1943 and hardly altered on her bridge layout for her entire life. It would be the same with tugs, when on a job the old man has her on top, when running light the mate had her in the lower bridge. Also I expect Bunkerbarge has his model right, as it was a period of change, modern ships with smaller wheels you stand behind and steer, now a lot of modern ships do not have steering wheels, you sit at a desk with a horse shoe shaped thing.
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Bunkerbarge,
You are spot on right, I have several ships plans of a similiar age to your vessel and they are laid out the same. Should imagine it is a left over from sailing vessels when the gear is behind the wheel and men stood at the side of the wheel !
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Hi Bunkerbarge, don't let them wind you up, I have some builders plans from that period and your model is 1005 correct and very nice it looks. My experience is most seaman with medium to large wheels stand at the side and we are talking of period when ship tech was still evolving from sailing vessels and thier traditional build and fit to vessels.
David
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So it's not "designed" to be steered by 2 men, just a throwback to older vessels?
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I don't think we are trying to say how the arrangement is best operated, the original issue came about because it was said that the configuration of my model was wrong.
Since my return home I have been through my reference books and was actually surprised at how many of the plans for vessels of this period in the C.V. Waine books have this arrangement, including of course the plans of my own ship.
I think this is a classic case of an instance where an open minded discussion would have been more productive than an ill informed and subsequently wrong sweeping statement that only led to confusion of the person who asked the question in the first place.
As to how they were operated I am happy to be guided by someone who has experience of such an arrangement but in the meantime I am quite confident that my model is in fact correct. My own personal interpretation is that this arrangement is not only a throwback to the sailing vessel set up but it is also possibly an easier and therefore much cheaper system to manufacture. I am sure the wheel could be operated from either the side or the front with suitable access to the binacle in calmer weather and if more effort was required in heavier swells then it would probably have been a two man operation anyway.
Interestingly enough of course the arrangement of the wheel house equipment is the same as the flying bridge.
Thanks for the support and comments rmasmaster much appreciated.
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I think this is a classic case of an instance where an open minded discussion would have been more productive than an ill informed and subsequently wrong sweeping statement that only led to confusion of the person who asked the question in the first place.
You are quite right Bunkerbarge....Confusion reined......having said that I did some more research and I am quite convinced you are right. Sorry for all the stick you got over such a simple matter, but it all adds to the spice of life....Cheers,
Barry
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Just glad I could help at the end of the day Barry. If you have any other questions feel free to ask them.
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I don't think we are trying to say how the arrangement is best operated
OK but surely "form follows function" :-\