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[Captain Povey]

Hi all, Just a bit of a rant really. My central boiler recently played up and continued to heat the water when it should have shut down. We will not go into where all that superheated steam ended up and the effect it had on the airing cupboard contents. I decided it would be best to contact the manufacturer for advice and spare parts. What a disaster they were. The man on the end of the phone was having a bad day because somebody had shouted at him as soon as he had arrived at work - oh dear. When I said I wanted a visit for a check on the boiler he said it was £215 up front for the call out. I gave him the details of the boiler which was installed in 1986 and asked if the man in the van would have the spares including a thermostat in the van. He asked a colleague and replied it was a 50/50 chance. I then asked what happened if the man in the van did not have the parts and was assured that the return visit with the parts was free. I asked about something else and he replied that another colleague had just said that none of the engineers would work on a boiler that old anyway. When I said he was beginning to sound like British Gas he became indignant until I pointed out that he had just asked me for £215 and I would get an engineer who probably had no spares and would refuse to repair the boiler. At this point my wife phoned my mobile and was having a panic attack on the way to Luton airport to collect my daughter. I explained I had to leave immediately and I hoped his day improved and nobody else shouted at him as I was not going to take up his offer. I went on the internet found the part for £41. It was delivered the next day, it took me 30 minutes to fit and all is well. I am sure there are numerous tales like this and it bothers me that many folks get trapped into accepting this sort of service. Thanks for listening fellow Mayhemers. I fell much better for getting that off my chest. Graham

[Colin H]

Graham,

First you have committed a cardinal sin by posting on this open forum that you have made the repair yourself. In this day of the nanny state you are simply not supposed to do what you did.

The biggest problem is that should `God forbid` anything goes wrong you will find your insurance company's first question will be what company did the repair and on finding out it was DIY they will cancel your insurance.

As to British Gas and boiler manufacturer's this is usually the most expensive way to get any kind of repair or installation work done.

Yours Colin H.

[Captain Povey]

Well Colin I did ask the question of the supplier if it was ok to fit this part and was told yes. This I assume was because I was not messing with the gas supply as such for which I know you have to get Corgi registered fitter, and I do. Mind you having worked with some Corgi registered fitters I do sometimes wonder exactly what is covered in their training. Anyway Nanny state or not I was not in a position to go off on a 10 day trip and leave the boiler in the condition it was to the tender care of my wife. I suppose I could have turned it all off and then cleared off but then I am not that brave as the wrath of my wife is probably worse than the Insurance company. Graham.

[Roger in France]

Graham see my "rant" about banks in response to your other post. IT IS ALL A COSPIRACY and you and I are powerless until the revolution!

Roger in France.

[wombat]

For you, CP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4dId4oNUxg

Wom

[kiteman1]

I'm not surprised that you are a bit cheesed Captain Povey.

When my boiler got noisy the engineer came out on a promise of free if there were no damaged parts and £200 if anything was needed.  As it turned out the pilot light was jammed up with dust and its tube full of same.  The engineer didn't appreciate my comments about the previous service which was only done last September.  When the Doc visited my better half one day and the boiler 'exploded' into life I knew something had to be done.....She nearly had kittens as she fell off the easy chair!!   

The engineer mucked the job up and had to come back the following day because he'd mucked up the 'cycling' of it.  It wouldn't switch off when temp. was reached......I ask you!

Incidentally, have you noticed how you always get the quarterly bill two days before the meter reader calls-with a ginormous over-estimate................. :'( :'( >:( >:(

[malcolmfrary]

When anybody hears of a corgi registered gas fitter who knows about gas and the appliances before rules and billing, I will expect the message to be delivered by a gilded flying pig.  Mind, they are probably streets in front of grittish basses accounts department.

[Captain Povey]

Thanks for finding thta classic Wom that was brilliant and made me smile again. Cheers Grahm

[Colin Bishop]

When anybody hears of a corgi registered gas fitter who knows about gas and the appliances before rules and billing, I will expect the message to be delivered by a gilded flying pig.  Mind, they are probably streets in front of grittish basses accounts department.

Well, Colin H has given me some very useful and practical advice so don't tar everyone with the same brush! It's the same in every walk of life, there are those that know and those that don't.
Colin

[Colin H]

Funnily enough I am a CORGI registered fitter and I have to agree with a lot of the comments made here.

The Building Engineering Services assessment is basically about gas safety not really about understanding appliances and what makes them work. Or more importantly what makes them fail.

CORGI registration ensures that `should` the operative put into practice all that he as been taught the work should be up to a good standard of gas safety. That and that alone.

There are several problems for the general public.

(a) CORGI has been to some extent misrepresented, people thing if they employ a CORGI registered fitter they are getting an expert.

Just because you know how to put in the correct size gas pipe does not mean you know how to design a central heating system.

(b) The lack of proper apprenticeships these days means that half the time the workman is practicing his or her skills in your home.

My apprenticeship was 5 years plus a one year improvership these days 3 months seems the norm. To give you an idea I was in the merchants the other day in front of me was a unisex plumber who had paid £7500-00p to go on an intensive 3 month course, They were asking the counter hand what fittings to use for a certain job. Fortunately for them this counter hand as been around for years and is an expert in his own right.

(c) The layman as a lack of knowledge and has to trust the supposed expert. This is where you can have a lot of problems from plain being ripped of to the person swapping part after part until he cures the problem.

Some guide lines.

British Gas is not all it is cracked up to be. They rely on their past reputation and now have a training program they should be ashamed off. They also use sub contractors so just because they person wears the uniform well lets say never judge a book by its cover.

CORGI registration only guarantees gas safety and then only if the operative follows the rules. CORGI does have a good complaints procedure but this only applies to matters of gas safety.

If a person turns up at your home looking scruffy or with poorly maintained tools, or a lack of tools be wary be very wary.

Advice should be free, diagnostic work should not.

If you can always try to employ a reccomended person providing you trust the person making the recommendation.

AND FINALLY TO MEMBERS OF THIS SITE. If I can help with advise on domestic matters ask.

Finally to Graham yes as regards to the Gas Installation & Use Regulations you can fit a thermostat I did not say you couldn't but there are other regulations that should something go wrong could be used against you. The main problem would be your insurance company (I detest insurance companies) they will use any excuse not to pay out on a claim and DIY is now a favourite.

Yours Colin H.

[Colin H]

Sorry forgot to say I only know about UK Regs.

Colin H.

[kiteman1]

Thanks for your comments Colin.  I think you've put the subject into the right perspective.  I wondered why the 'engineer' spent so long looking into space and now I know.

The engineer was employed by a nationally known manufacturer of C/H boilers and, I presume, was retained specifically on their behalf.

I've had loads of different servicers in the past and only one or two have been really thorough with checking gas pressures jet cleaning and the like.  The question, therefore, is what am I spending £80 on each time.

Over to any one with a sensible answer.  I'm tempted to offer a furry bunny for the best answer but Easter is over!!

[tigertiger]

question, therefore, is what am I spending £80 on each time.

You are paying for time, including travel time, and the use of the van and fuel. ::)

Sorry my answer isn't more interesting.

[Colin H]

TT yes they are some of the things covered by your payment but I would also include the fact you have a right to expect a knowledgable, honest tradesperson.

Modern boilers have more electrical components than you can shake a stick at yet still I see and know of engineers who don't carry a multi meter. The main reason for this is not expense £20 but they just don't know how to use one and can't be bothered to learn.

Hence the lost look and `I think it could be the **** madam`. Change this part it still does not work `well the **** must have blown the ++++ madam` change that part and so on.

I am regularly called to jobs were others have trod before and still not got it right. My hourly rate is high compared to some but if I don't effect a cure I don't charge. Though this as not happened as yet I am sure it will.

Things will get worse as appliances become ever more complex and engineers are required to spend large amounts of money in order to be able to work on them. One well known manufacturer is already working on a boiler with plug in diagnostics so no lap top no cure. Modern SEDBUK band A boilers require a flue gas analyzer to be able to service them correctly the list goes on.

Honesty counts for a great deal when dealing with clients but some people find it impossible to hold up their hands and say sorry got it wrong I will put it right FOC.

Colin H.

[grantl]

Reminds me of a 'plumber' that I called out a few years ago.
He told me that the three way valve controller had failed.
He then led me back to the boiler and pulled out a couple of circuit boards saying these would need replacing as well.

I said: 'Why?'

He said: 'Well it's all connected isn't it'

I said: 'So is the National Grid but we're not replacing that'

He didn't come back, I bought a three way valve and a book on plumbing. The boiler circuits are still fine.
(The book was a course book for NVQ years 2 & 3, told me plenty.)

Regards,

Grant.

[tigertiger]

I think the technology thing is becoming more of an issue.

You would only allow an IBM trained engineer to work on an IBM machine. And the courses for IBM are about 6000+ for one day for a new piece of equipment.
Well thats what we think we would do. However there are many IT untrained people out there. And at home we want the cheap guy. or, in this day and age, anybody who is available.

I think finding an 'experienced' engineer, like yourself Colin, will get harder.

There are very few tradespeople who will take on an apprentice. In the old days is was 7 years and you earned poor money. Few youngsters would do that today. And the modern apprentiships are much shorter in time. So if an engineer trains an apprentice, all thier time and effort is gone very quickly and they now have a bit of competition. But I think the main heartache for the 'Master' is the effrt put into the apprentice with no return for the effort.

I suppose one of the problems was RoSLA. Before that many kids left school at 14, and the expectation was work or apprenticeship. So no expectation of high earnings. But expectaion of a career. Today kids leave school at 16 and expect the dole or a reasonbly paid job, or leave at 18 and expect to go to university.

Another issue will be as more manufacturers enter the market. unfortunaely there is not a standard platform for many engineering control systems.

The other issue is Government by initiative. Tinkering with NVQs until they have lost credibilty in many areas is an example. Too much short termism and bending to the needs of the league tables. All have had a major effect on training in this country. Perhaps the Polish engineers/tradespeople will be able to fill the gap. I have no doubt they are resourcful enough to fix most things. They just won't be corgi trained yet.

[Colin H]

One of the biggest problems for new entrants is the requirements to take `assessments`.

A person can go to college for 3 years and obtain all the NVQs in the world in gas fitting they still then have to take the assessments to obtain CORGI registration, for a first timer this will cost about £2000-00p. However the biggest problem for them is they have to be employed by a CORGI registered engineer for a minimum period before they are allowed to take the assessments.

Closed shop or what?

Colin H.

[tigertiger]

But what sensible Corgi registered Eng will take on somebody for a minimum preiod to then see them set up as competition?

[portside II]

heres another one for you CP , you may want to check yours frequently 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q
daz

[toesupwa]

A radical thought..

Lets do away with all these heating boilers, problems with them, overpriced and un-educated engineers...

Lets go back to a real fire....

[malcolmfrary]

The Mythbusters demo was with an electric heater with all of the safety devices either blanked off or disabled so that the maximum temperature could be exceeded, and there was a total lack of pressure venting, so the pressure could build until the vessel failed.  In normal domestic use, this combination is most unlikely without outside help, such as a servicer leaving a few parts of the job undone. 
Many years in the electric bits n pieces industry convinced me that the main cause of equipment failure was enthusiastic servicing.  Some was required to ensure that a long service life happened, but any equipment that actually failed an automatic overnight routine test had usually been recently serviced.
How many of us have had the experience of taking a car to a garage for a service and then taking it back for the subsequent repair?

[alan colson]

I am dreading the next few weeks as the gas man cometh, all the main gas pipes are being dug up and replaced in our road. They want to come in and walk around the house to check things out before and after the job is done, not easy when both myself and the wife work full time. Then there is all the mess in the street, not going to be very inviting when trying to sell the house. I'm just a bit fed up, have lived here for 20 years and NOW they want to do it. >:( :( :'(
Alan

[Colin H]

Alan, re the re pipe.

The first visit will be to just turn of the gas at the emergency control (your main gas cock), the work force is not allowed to believe you can do this for them, they may also put a disc in the supply line to ensure you cannot turn on the gas until they have been for the second visit.

The second visit will be after the gas supply is reestablished. Again by law they have to access your home, check for escapes, purge the pipework of air and relight all the appliances. There as been some talk recently of contractors doing this sort of work telling home owners that they must get a CORGI engineer to do this at their own expense. This is not true the contractors have a responsibility in law to carryout this work.

With regards to the exploding hot water storage vessel Malcom is quite correct however in Europe things have moved on a little.

European Safety Standard EN 60335-2-73 concerning immersion heater thermostats came into force in April 1999 but a phase in period was allowed, this period is now over. Rod type thermostats usually fail with the contacts closed allowing the water to boil. Now they have to be fitted with a non resetable overheat cutout which will prevent overheating of the cylinder. All new thermostats have this device so as replacement takes place through failure the problem should hopefully be cured.

Colin H.

[portside II]

I can understand what you are saying about water heaters and their safety devices ,and thank goodness for them .
the mythbusters look at myth's  that originate mainly in the states  where the myth cannot be replicated in normal circumstances they replicate the results by whatever means possible ,that's why the safety valves etc have been plugged up .
You have got to admit the result was spectacular  .
daz

[Captain Povey]

Hello all contributors. Sorry for not responding earlier I ahve been travelling and only just managed to get back on line. Thanks Colin H for your input I do appreciate that there are some very good guys out there and you are obviously one of them. I did say at the start it was a bit of rant i.e letting off some built up steam but not to the extent of the american video. I do not want to have another go at anybody but do recall that when then gas main was replaced in the road outside my house because of the constant smell of gas and a new supply 'moled' in to the front door all went well until the superviser told me he wanted to put one of those ugly white boxes on the front wall of the house with a new meter in it and take out the meter under the stairs. This would not have fitted in at all with the character of the house. In addition he then wanted to run loads of pipe from the new meter around the porch to get the supply into the house. I said I was not happy with this  as any leak would mean I would pay for gas not used. He said it would not leak and was suprised when I questioned why it was then that the mains in the road was being replaced. In the end he agreed with my suggestion that the meter went in the porch, I would box it in and he could connect to the pipe just inside the door. This saved them loads of time and materials and was a much better job. Sorry guys but I do not expect to have to tell the 'expert' the best solution to his problem. Graham