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Author Topic: Madness!  (Read 5841 times)

Colin Bishop

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Madness!
« on: April 13, 2008, 12:43:43 pm »

According to a report in today's Sunday Times, the Royal Navy has been told by the MOD to avoid detaining pirates as it may breach their human rights. In some areas, such as off Somalia, pirates handed over to the local authorities may have their heads or hands chopped off. If the Navy detains them and brings them back to the UK then they may be able to claim political asylum because sending them back to their country of origin would put them at risk of having their extremities forcibly detached and would thus be in breach of their human rights.

Whatever happened to the yardarm solution?  >>:-( 
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Roger in France

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 01:02:36 pm »

There would once have been a response from the commander of a Royal Naval ship, "But Minister of Defence, having restrained the pirate from his evil intentions I thought it best to take the poor chap home. How was I to know they would decapitate him?"

Roger.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2008, 03:57:56 pm »

As far as I am concerned anyone who commits a crime with violence against other people should not have any human rights. 

We, as usual, seem to forget the human rights of the victims of the crime who should have a right to expect justice.

I'm probably in a minority again though!!
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DickyD

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2008, 04:19:35 pm »

As far as I am concerned anyone who commits a crime with violence against other people should not have any human rights. 

We, as usual, seem to forget the human rights of the victims of the crime who should have a right to expect justice.

I'm probably in a minority again though!!
Dont think so. O0 O0
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Jonty

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2008, 05:18:12 pm »

  It's an often overlooked fact that it was Royal Navy captains, often on their own initiative, who largely suppressed the slave trade in the 19th century.

  Several who overstepped the mark, however, were heavily fined, and they had to pay that out of their own pockets.

  Nothing much changes, does it?
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boatmadman

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2008, 05:36:59 pm »

Bunkerbarge,

That is one of my favourite soapbox topics - people who inflict harm or injury on others give up any human rights by the action of depriving the victim of theirs.

I have many a discussion on this when I have my volunteer head on!

Ian
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dougal99

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2008, 06:02:40 pm »

Didn't bother the French commandos if yesterday's papers are to be believed.

I support the proposition that the violent perpertrator forfeits his rights by committing an act of violence and recommend it to the house. 

However, I'm not sure I support the South African Government minister's stance of 'Shoot the B******s and I'll worry about the rules.'

Tricky one.

Doug
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Stavros

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2008, 06:35:04 pm »

Simple KEEL HAUL the buggars



Stavros
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John W E

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 07:02:05 pm »

Aye, how long have we lived in the society of the 'do gooders' they dont come from a good background - they havent had the opportunities of everyone else - nowhere to go - no money - no work - ho ho ........  take pity everyone on these.   

I dont know about anyone else, but my first few years I can remember from not only my parents but also at school - taught the difference from right and wrong - and if you did wrong - you were in trouble and you were punished.

It did not matter what background you came from; who you were; we were all treat the same and all made to respect the same rules.  It never did me any harm or any of us any harm come to that.

So, my belief is....an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth - within the laws of justice.   If someone murders someone - they should forfeit their life as they have taken someone else's life - surely that is the right way - when it has been proven without a doubt.

If someone beats a person or persons up to steal their money - for whatever reason - expect to be flogged.

NEVER VOTE FOR ME LADS & LASSES & put me in power of a country - first one to step out of line - shot no questions.    Never mind Keel haul them Stavros.  I would get them half way under the hull and forget to pull them back up with the rope.  8) :D {-) 

say no more.....off me soap box  >>:-( >>:-( :police: :angel:

aye
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Ghost in the shell

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 07:06:04 pm »

Simple KEEL HAUL the buggars



Stavros

prefferably with the motors turning, shark chum anyone???
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bigfella

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 10:33:07 pm »

I must agree that the perpetrators of crime seem to have more rights than the victims thanks to the civil libertarians. Another thing that should be brought in, especially in Australia, is mandatory sentencing. I mean if you commit say Armed Robbery you get 20 years, as John said previously judges should not take extenuating circumstances into consideration. You know the crap that goes on with the judges these days so you should take sentencing out of their hands.

"Having been found guilty I will not sentence this man for 20 years in prison for Armed Robbery because he did not have a train set as a child so I sentence him to 2 years and taking into account the time served he may be released forthwith"

Wheres the justice >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

Regards David
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Stavros

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2008, 11:01:03 pm »

It is about time the good old days came back when Coppers were coppers and were allowed to take the blighter's round th back of wherever and give them a good old fashioned thumping etc.Funnily enough I was talking not so long ago to a chap who in his day was the local terraway about the lack of discipline and the cheek of the youngsters today.Fair enough as he said it did make him think of what he did.He had been given a dammed good hiding form an old fashioned Sgt when he was a youngster and still remembers it to this day,as he said more of that should happen not only locally but worldwide,it certainly would make these tearaways think twice I think,and get rid of all teh doogooders for ever,


Stavros
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oldiron

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 12:19:05 am »

I must agree that the perpetrators of crime seem to have more rights than the victims thanks to the civil libertarians. Another thing that should be brought in, especially in Australia, is mandatory sentencing. I mean if you commit say Armed Robbery you get 20 years, as John said previously judges should not take extenuating circumstances into consideration. You know the crap that goes on with the judges these days so you should take sentencing out of their hands.

"Having been found guilty I will not sentence this man for 20 years in prison for Armed Robbery because he did not have a train set as a child so I sentence him to 2 years and taking into account the time served he may be released forthwith"

Wheres the justice >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

Regards David

Sounds like Canada. Thats what they do here. We've got about 1700 muderers running around Toronto (4million people)  on bail awaiting their time in court.........poor dears.

oldiron
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bigfella

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 12:27:38 am »

I must agree that the perpetrators of crime seem to have more rights than the victims thanks to the civil libertarians. Another thing that should be brought in, especially in Australia, is mandatory sentencing. I mean if you commit say Armed Robbery you get 20 years, as John said previously judges should not take extenuating circumstances into consideration. You know the crap that goes on with the judges these days so you should take sentencing out of their hands.

"Having been found guilty I will not sentence this man for 20 years in prison for Armed Robbery because he did not have a train set as a child so I sentence him to 2 years and taking into account the time served he may be released forthwith"

Wheres the justice >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

Regards David

Sounds like Canada. Thats what they do here. We've got about 1700 muderers running around Toronto (4million people)  on bail awaiting their time in court.........poor dears.

oldiron

Whats the old saying "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time"
Without the threat of a genuine sentence for a crime, where is the deterrent?
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RipSlider

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 01:48:53 am »

Hello all.

It is I, I have returned, although only briefly. My advice is, if at all possible, avoid Swindon, as it is a foul and wretched hole. Oh.. and avoid Poland as well, as that's not much better but beer is cheaper - on the downside they seem to be pushing the concentration camps a bit too much as a tourist attraction.

Anywho, I'm going to make a counter argument to these points:

1) Pirates: Fair enough, if you capture a load of chaps with guns and knifes actually robbing a ship, then all well and good and hand chopped off all around. Give one to the captain as a souvenir as well I say. However, actually catching pirates "in the act" is a very rare occurance - so virtually all captures will be on "suspicion of piracy". So lets turn it around a bit. 8 britions get captured by the somali navy on "suspcion of piracy" or "They were looking at that ship in a funny way". sentence is passed - hands chopped of the next morning ( although that there's no hands been chopped off for a while in Somalia - one of my chaps at work is a somali and I asked him ). Lets colour the waters even more, and say that they were off duty Royal Navy personel. What, I wonder, would the reaction of this board be in those circunstances? I am willing to bet sizable amounts of money that it would be different than the reactions above.


2) Asylum seekers: I have two guys who work for me who have been through the asylum process. One is the somali guy above - he got out of Somalia after is parents were killed by a militia who were hunting for him - why? becuase he acted as a volenteer medic when some African Union troops - who were in the country quelling the civil war - got injured. Anyone care to guess what their plans were for him?

How much money - in cash - do you think Asulym seekers get? Approx 40/month. They get food vouchers, clothing vouchers which are only really taken at second hand clothing shops, and they get to join a nightly lottery for getting a place to sleep. And if your feeling like protesting this point, I thouighly reccommend that you put down your copy of the Sun or the Daily Mail, open your minds a little, and go and see what *actually* goes on with the guys seeking asulym.

3) "Hang them up by the yard arm"
Anyone care to Answer the question: "What connects the last 4 people hanged in the UK"?
Anyone??? No....

Answer "They have all be proved, beyond all reasonable doubt, to be innocent subseqeunt to their hangings"
If hanging gets your blood going, if you really do get your kicks from the thought of a nasty bad guy twitching and spasming on the end of a rope, then fine. I don't really like the idea, but I can see why others do. But heres the thing:

We're really not very good at it.

If someone has done something foul, then fair play, string them up. I guess you could probably even make a profit if you sold the right to stream the video over the internet. But seeing as we're 4/4 on the "oops - looks like we've topped the wrong chap - I wonder what we should do now " stakes I view it as a risky business all round. But perhaps I'm just a soppy liberal?

4) "Ah... when I was a lad everything was lovely....the kids we get today....I blame it on the parents/do gooders/government etc etc"

When I was a kid, I lived in terror of my old man. But I still did a whole load of stupid stuff. I even demolished an entire building once ( long story....) Knowing that my old man would knock me accross the room if he found out didn't EVER stop me, it just made me better at hiding it.

Equally, my dad himself was a right ruffian in "the good old days" - and he had the scars all accross his back from where my grandad used to flog him with the buckle end of his belt. He ended up a thourghly civilised chap - letters after his name, respectable job, member of the PTA. Turning into "A good'un" had nothing to do with the belt from my grandfather, and certainly nothing to do with my old mans fists.
I reckon that a combination of ambition and women did. For both of us. Or maybe just women. Certainly I grew up becuase I wanted a good enough job so that I could date the better looking girls, who had higher expectations. And then I got into a vicious circle where I find myself married to Mrs Steve, being a grown up and sometimes even reading the Finacial Times. I'm *SO* grown up I can usually do the whole of the Times cryptic Crossword in less than a day. And my pop smacking me about a bit didn't do anything to help that. But an exceptionally lovely girl called Jess who wore tight tops and demanded dinner at a half decent resturant *did*.

5) "an eye for an eye...."
from Bluebird:
"Murder = murder"
"Theft = flogging"

Not exactly an eye for an eye surely? More like "Steal my TV and I'll see to it that your skin is torn off your body, you'll get blood and skin infections all over your body and you'll run a 1:3 risk of rupturing a kidney (becuase the musilm lads who dole out the floggings generally don't get around to handing out kidney protection, and do tend to aim a bit low ( amnesty international have a nice research paper on the after effects if your interested)... you just can't get the staff can you...)

Would it not be fairer just to go and get your TV back, and steal *HIS* TV as well? Then you have two TV's and your feeling all smug becuase you enacted the Toral laws set down in some old book 4,000 years ago as is good and proper.

Mind you, the same chapter in that book that you got your "An eye for an eye...." quote from also says that the punishment for planting two different crops in the same field is to be stoned to death. The chapter before it says that it's perfectly acceptable to sell your daughter ( but not your son ) into slavery. Now, maybe it's just me, but I reckon that *someone* must have produced something just a smidgeon more up to date by now....


6) Mandatory sentencing: I'm guessing this is put in a joke. becuase if it's not, you desperately need to read what it has done to the US. 40% of total tax increased linked to paying for the prisons for a start. But the bit about the gangs, the drugs, the suicide rates and all that other good stuff is also worth a look as well....


I have to go and pack a bag now to go to Poland again.

ttfn

Steve

p.s: keel Hauling: words escape me...



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Roger in France

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2008, 05:59:39 am »

Thank you Steve, masterly.

I find it interesting that the hangers and floggers can make their simplistic statements so readily and yet to put the counter argument, as you did, requires considerable thought and argument. That is because considered thought takes a while and demands effort!

Roger in France.
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bigfella

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 06:07:23 am »

Steve

The financial cost to keeping rapists and murderers off the street does not matter. Take a recent case an 80 year old woman was raped and beaten by a youth who only served 2 years in prison and most of that was while on remand. Sorry mate but I don't think that Judges have a clue when it comes to sentencing. I put a link on another thread that was about a 10 year old being pack raped and non of the accused who were found guilty did any time in prison. What would you do to all the Criminals who are found guilty and if released will only re-offend??? At least a minimum sentence for each crime would make the crims think before they kill, rape, rob or commit a crime.

Regards David
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John W E

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2008, 09:30:11 am »

Hi everyone, Hi RipSlider

In this world today, the majority of us are entitled to freedom of speech and of thought - but, the next time RipSlider, I do urge you to have a deep thought on your beliefs and the way things are going.

Take your ideas along to the mother and look her in the eyes and tell her to forgive the person that brutally kicked her daughter to death and stamped on her, just because she dressed differently to a lot of people.  She dressed as a goth.   I wonder if you were ever a mod or rocker or whatever in your youth; and on the same hand there is an 80 year old woman, not far from where I live, who has been brutally raped and beaten; read out to her what you have just stated and your beliefs and see if she too has it in her heart to forgive.  Can you feel her pain.   

This is all because the youth wanted drug money; and drink money; all he got was a few quid.  What is that woman left with; and, what is her family left with - don't forget you know, this woman and her family lived through a lot tougher times that we ever have and endured a lot of harship than we have - and this is how today's society repay her.

I am sorry - in my eyes - you may be one of these do gooders that need to open their eyes and be on the victims' side for once - and I am so sorry, but charity begins at home - we put our own faults in our country right first - and then consider maintaining other countries.

I was once very proud to be British; but, these days not so sure of that.

As far as Asylum seekers are concerned; I feel compassion for them - yes, in their own country.  However, when in Rome do as the Roman's do.  Abide by our rules and regulations - because they are guests in this country.

aye
John e
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2008, 09:39:51 am »

Steve,

I think the comments on this thread relate to miscreants who have actually done something bad, they are let off too lightly in many cases. There was another report in the Sunday Times by one of the female columnists who was on a bus last week when a middle aged guy accidentally stood on the foot of a large young guy. (I won't refer to their respective skin shades). The young guy then started punching the older one, threw him off the bus and kicked seven bells out of him before getting back on the bus and shouting "who are you looking at then?" Nobody did anything, they were all petrified that he might be carrying a knife - he probably was.

As Bluebird says, this sort of thing is corroding our society and it has to be stopped. New York made considerable improvements with their Zero Tolerance" policy. We need something similar here.

Colin
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Roger in France

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 10:06:22 am »

It is far too easy to say "...look the relatives of victims in the eye...". Of course if something happened to those near and dear to me I would want vengeance, excessive vengeance but that does not make it right.

I agree that appropriate punishment should be applied. However, I repeat what I said before:

1. Do not believe all you read or hear in the media. They tell of incidents and in such a way as to serve their purposes. There purposes are to sell their newspapers or channels; to retain the type of reader/listener who agrees with them and they pander to fairly basic instincts in the population.
3. Be very careful about commenting on cases where you have little idea of the background and the facts adduced in court.

Roger in France.
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John W E

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2008, 10:11:21 am »

last word Roger in France.....my son happens to be in the Police and all I will say is the media only see a little bit of it and the public only read a little bit - if the truth was out and the stats were out, it would little horrify you.    The British Police, some condemn them, but, they have their hands tied by so many laws that they sometimes can virtually do nothing but pick up the bits and pieces.

aye
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Roger in France

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 10:24:19 am »

John,

I understand what you say. I was once an enforcement officer in a particular area of the criminal law and subject to the same limitations, checks and procedures as the police. It makes things very demanding and in some cases impossible.

I had one or two cases thrown out because, for example, I had not served a statutory notice at all or had served it too late. The fact that the rouge was guilty as hell of the crime with which I charged him had nothing to do with it!

Once, to my great discredit, I was appearing to prosecute a case when the Court asked me had I carried out a particularly obscure point of procedure. I said, "Yes" with my fingers crossed behind my back! They believed me, I think because I was a frequent prosecutor in that Court and had a reputation of being fair and open. That day still shames me and the conviction, although deserved was wrong.

I am often called a "bleeding hearted liberal" or worse. I would prefer to think of myself as a thoughtful person, less quick to judge than some and committed to those checks and balances which frustrate great wrongs.

Roger in France.
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boatmadman

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 11:00:47 am »

It is far too easy to say "...look the relatives of victims in the eye...". Of course if something happened to those near and dear to me I would want vengeance, excessive vengeance but that does not make it right.

Roger in France.

Speaking from experience, my youngest son was disabled in a road accident - knocked off his bike by a van from behind, he was in a coma for 10 weeks, hospital for 15 weeks, there is a lot more but that isnt relevent.

I felt anger like you wouldnt beleive, I cant describe what I wanted to do to the driver - who by the way walked away with no penalty, points, record - anything. His insurance company coughed up after a long drawn out legal battle in high court, which I might add left me in huge debt.

Anger is natural, I beleive the desire for revenge is natural as well, but, it isnt the right thing to do in a so called civilised society because that way lies anarchy.

On the plus side, my son has gone from not being expected to survive the first night, to expecting to get his degree this year, is engaged and only last week was offered a full time job after finishing uni.

Now, if I had succumbed to the desire to inflict revenge on the driver, I would probably have served time for it, lost my job, house and all else that entails. The final outcome would not be what it is now.

Thank goodness I was able to see through the black rage and think of the consequences.

Ian
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andygh

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 11:28:34 am »

What happened to 2?  ???
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Madness!
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2008, 12:52:55 pm »

Just getting back to one of the cornerstones of this discussion which I think has been forgotten and although both sides of the debate have equally strong supporting stories I still think that one of the main problems nowadays stems from the fact that the perpetrators of the crimes have more rights than the victims and that is making a mess of everything.

The problem is that as all the people who advocate human rights for the victims continue to tell everyone what a good, fair and just society we are and every one has rights etc...etc..  Unfortunately the really bad guys know this now and take advantage of this and now we are completely incapable of dealing with terrorists, violent criminals and even youth thugs.  They all know that we are too soft to offer a deterent so they have no respect for the society they live in and enjoy living outside the rules that tie the rest of us down.

We already have experience of people who are prepared to give thier lives for thier cause and we are unable to effectively stop them.  They know we play by the rules so they don't, simple.  We value our lives, we don't want to die, but they are happy to do so.  How do you deal with that? 

So back to the pirates, and if you need supporting stories I have sailed on vessels that were subsequently subjected to that particular horror and friends of mine who were still there shared thier experiences with me.  People who are capable of the type of violent crimes that pirates commit and who are proved to have commited them should have no rights.

We need to focus our attentions on the victims and not the criminals.

Just as an end note, spending a lot of time travelling as I do and picking up attitudes of people around the world one of the things that disturbs me more and more is the fact that the rest of the world are starting to see us as a bit of a joke.  This seems to be manily based on the numbers of Eastern Europeans working in the UK and sending thier wages and benefits home plus the fact that we spend so much time talking about human rights of minority groups that are known to be supporting and preaching terrorism.  How long would a high priest advocating death and destruction to the country they live in have lasted in Germany or France?  We feed and clothe him and continue to assure him that he has feedom of speech.
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