Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.  (Read 26828 times)

farrow

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2008, 08:57:30 am »

Did you see that programme, Colin. It would appear the reason she sunk so quick was 1- The officer of the watch went hard over with the wheel on seeing the berg, so that it was a glancing blow rather than a full head on. When I was at college , I was taught if you are going to hit , steer head on, as the stem and collision bulkhead are the strongest part of the ship and the damage is better contained. 2- The area in the flare and round of the vessel forward and aft where riveted with wrought iron rivets, though the plating was 1.5 inch steel. Under tests the heads pop after 5mm deflection of the plate. The reason for this is that the pneumatic riveting machine was too bulky to work on round and awkward shape plates. On top of this they used No 3 (best bar) instead of No 4 (best best bar) to save money.
So they reckon when she hit , she pop the rivet heads from No 3 stoke hold to forward, she literally busted her seams. Coupled with White Stars M.D, wanting to lower water tight bulkheads to obtain a bigger and grander central staircase plus reduce the number of lifeboats by 66% because it spoilt the view from the boatdeck. It was a recipe for disaster.
But unfortunately disasters like this will always attract attention and speculation for ever. The point is where man kind is concerned there always will be occasional disasters like this, because it is the nature of mankind to push the envelope for all kinds of reason. Though the biggest disasterwas the liner coming back from Dunkirk with all kinds of refugees which was dive bombed with far greater loss of live than the Titanic, so much so that no one knows for sure as she was overloaded. But one thing is for sure to drown or freeze to death at sea is a terrible fate.
David
Logged

BarryM

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,692
  • Location: West Lothian
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2008, 09:03:58 am »

There have been two very good programmes recently on this subject. One was recently the curse of the Titanic, which was about all three ships in the class. An basically they where compared to other large liners of the day, very old inefficient designed hulls(just jumboised version of sailing ship hulls), also the rivetting was different to other building yard practice, ie they used cold rivets made out of mild steel. Also there was a programme some time ago where they recovered a piece of her hull plating, which they analysed and stress tested. The plate was of the wrong material for cold water and easily sheered cleanly in the test where a modern piece of steel designed for cold water just buckled. At the end of the day she was a very badly designed vessel, badly built with inferior material and lacked the necessary safety requirements such as sufficient lifeboats. Her sistership the last built with enhanced safety features went down in 27minutes, where as Titanic took 2.5 to3 hours.
On Monday night there was a 1.5 hour programme investigating this event, I have yet to watch the it as I have recorded it, my wife watched the summing up and she said they where going on about her rivets.
But in those days a ship her size doing over20 knots hitting a *horrible* great iceberg would be enough to sink any ship and I expect even the QE2 would be a questionable survivor.
David

I assume you are referring to the Britannic as sinking in 27 minutes? As she was mined/torpedoed, it's hardly a fair comparison. The Olympic went on to a successful career and acquired the nickname of 'Old Reliable' and survived ramming a submarine. (No rivet problems?)

Given the size of impact and its direction, it wouldn't have mattered a damn whether the rivets were wrought iron, steel or green cheese - she was always going to tear open and the lack of adequate sub-division (nobody has mentioned yet the lack of longitudinal w/t bulkheads) did the rest.

The Board of Trade Inquiry was always going to be a whitewash; it was sitting in judgement on itself and turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Barry M
Logged

Garabaldy

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2008, 12:58:04 pm »

i love that - "turkeys don't vote for christmas"  :}
Logged

polaris

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2008, 07:29:29 pm »


Dear All,

As I think has already been said on this Thread, there was one other factor that is important.

It was particularly very very bad form to ram anything in those days, and, had the Bridge kept course and rammed head on there is no doubt the Titanic would not have sunk. However, the maneuver of endeavouring to avoid the berg at all costs meant grazing it rather than hitting it. Head on would obviously have dented the ship badly, but it would only have affected the front one or two bulkheads, but, running along side the berg resulted in what happened obviously.

Regards, Bernard
Logged

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,312
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2008, 08:09:24 pm »

Very true. Hindsight  is always 20/20.
Did the bridge have any other choice given the imposed circumstances?

Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

polaris

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2008, 09:07:01 pm »


Dear Martin,

None at all. Damned if you did and damned if you didn't... in this instance anyway.

We can only put ourselves in the imaginary position of the Officer of the watch. It is instinct to try and avoid an accident just as it was to avoid the berg... doubly so for the Bridge of the Titanic... not only a brand new ship but it's maiden voyage... what officer would like it on his record that he deliberately allowed the continuation of a course taking an unsinkable ship straight into a berg to protect the ship... one can only imagine the recrimination at the 'alternative' inquiry of "Why didn't you make all effort to avoid the collision"! A no win situation - for Captain or the Bridge Crew - and one that would have left all the latter with no chance of 'senior' work on any ship again!

As someone else very correctly pointed out, the rivet matter is irrelevant. The bulkhead situation is however more important I feel.

Regards, Bernard

As you say
Logged

farrow

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2008, 10:37:37 am »

I disagree the rivet problem plays a major part in the tragedy, it is well documented that there was no heavy impact or shuddering felt on the ship, it was like a gentle cuff. If the rivets had held, as they should have done the ship may have survived or at least floated long enough for help to arrive. Other riveted vessels have survived collisions with allsorts and survived, even old riveted ww1 destroyers in ww2 rammed and road over U-boats and survived the war. If the hull plating flex's then the rivets should hold, one would expect the rivets to give if there is catastrophic failure of the hull plating and frames in the initial area, not a flexing along 25% of the hull where the hull structure did not suffer major damage.
Logged

polaris

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2008, 12:09:42 pm »


To generalise: Had the bulkheads been sufficiently high (or dare it be said as high as they should have been), the rush of water over bulkheads from compartment to compartment would not have happened, or at least water ingress would have been considerably slower (undamaged Fwd. compartments were catastrophically flooded). It must not be forgotten that warships by necessity of purpose have significant bulkhead provision. Whilst saying that other riveted ships have survived serious collision, there are indeed many, however, they were not all of the weight/momentum of Titanic and the circumstances were different - ramming and being rammed is one thing, a long and heavy 'glancing' blow with an 'immovable object' is another! - the stresses would have been very considerable. Some very large WW1 & 2 capital ships were lost with less causative damage.
Logged

dreadnought72

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,898
  • Wood butcher with ten thumbs
  • Location: Airdrie, Scotland
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2008, 01:03:49 pm »

Would flooding one (or more) rear compartment(s) have aided the Titanic's survival? Levelling the ship off would have stopped that section-by-section flooding which took 'er down, no?

Andy
Logged
Enjoying every minute sailing W9465 Mertensia

polaris

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2008, 01:21:00 pm »


Dear Andy,

It might have delayed things a bit, but don't forget it was a passenger liner and deliberately flooding compartments would not have been as 'straight forward' (for want of better words), than other types of ships. The other factor is that the ship was supposed to be unsinkable, so this mindset didn't help matters I feel. As Martin correctly said, all of what we are saying is all well and good in hindsight... things were just different in those days.

At the end of the day the biggest 'mistake/error' of all was not having enough lifeboats on board. In this respect (& in today's world), I would find the then Board of Trade culpable 'for knowingly permitting and licensing a vessel to sail without proper safety provision for it's passengers'.

Regards, Bernard
Logged

BarryM

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,692
  • Location: West Lothian
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2008, 01:23:52 pm »

Andy,

In a word - No. Levelling her off by removing even more buoyancy from aft (if at all possible) may have temporarily reduced the flooding but then as water inflow continued, the bow would have gone down again and you would have been in an even worse position, i.e. you had even less reserve buoyancy. The Grey Funnel Line has a saying to the effect that reducing buoyancy should always be left to the enemy and it is very true.

The impact may have been "like a gentle cuff" but given the high mass and thus high inertia of the ship and the direction of impact would you expect anything else? If an elephant sits on you he may do it ever so slowly and gently but the end result is the same.

Barry M
Logged

victorian

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2008, 05:20:12 pm »

Brian said:

Quote
All of the so-called "experts" were so quick to say that "in the old days" turning to port meant turning the wheel to starboard. Stuff and nonsense

I'd really like to know the truth of this. Years ago, a letter writer to the 'Times' recalled that his father had been a sea captain in the 20's or 30's when by a rare universal international convention, all the ships in the world were converted to the 'modern' sense of steering. The writer recalled that while his father had coped successfully with this change, he never learned to drive the little car that he bought at around the same time! So this chap was quite convinced that ship's steering was 'reversed' after WW1 and that his father was unable to learn to drive as a result of the car's steering being the 'wrong' way.

I can't find any reference to this alleged international change on t'internet and the Times letter search doesn't come up with the letter either. Does anyone know?

Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,850
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2008, 05:28:10 pm »

Victorian,

This is a reference to what you were looking for: http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/wheel.html

Colin
Logged

victorian

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2008, 08:09:23 pm »

Thanks for that link Colin. It led me to this Wikipedia piece:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiller.

So it seems fairly clear that it was the tiller orders, not the wheel direction, that were reversed in 1933. Maybe the letter writer omitted to mention that his father's car came with a chauffeur and that is where the problem lay!
Logged

farrow

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2008, 09:10:42 pm »

Gentlemen, let us all remember this incident happened a long time ago, there have been more qualified people than us have pondered and pronounced on the subject. The fact is a ship in a time and era which we all including professional seamen as myself are completely unfamiliar with and have great difficulty trying to get my head round to understand the, a - the unwritten rules as well as the written codes of conduct aboard these ships, b- the total lack navigation equipment that we now take for granted, c - the type of construction of these ships and type of damaged they will take and a plethora of other things we are ignorant of. We are all now looking back with modern 20/20 vision and we cannot really judge individuals, nor will we know the real truth as most of the educated people who did know and could give witness went down with the ship with all her logs and documentations. Those that did survive where problay economical with the truth to cover their backsides, plus the authorities wanted a whitewash to cover their failures(which still happens today). So in this vain was Princess Diana murdered, is Elvis really dead !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way a very large loaded bulkier hit a large jetty in the Mississippi a few years back a glancing blow and survived it very well.
Logged

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,312
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2008, 11:20:33 pm »


You know, this would make a good plot for a Hollywood film!

......... in bad taste?   I'll get my coat.  :embarrassed:
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

farrow

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2008, 12:56:04 pm »

An I will get my hat and gloves, bye all.
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,850
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2008, 01:12:15 pm »

You're both wrong! Grab your lifejackets!  ;)
Logged

wombat

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
  • The view from the shallow end of the gene pool
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2008, 09:23:44 pm »

Only problem with making a film about the Titanic - what do you do to fill the time until the boat sinks.

Trying to remember a good documentary I saw on the subject of the Titanic - think it was Nat-Geo. They picked up on the sub-standard rivet material which would have cause the seams to spring at a much lower force than designed, however this should have not caused the boat to sink - the watertight compartments would have coped.

However there was a weak point on the vessel - the expansion joint. This had been problematic during the design and build of the vessel. At the water flooded the ship, the extra strain on the expansion joint caused it to fail which would account for the way the ship sank.

Wom
Logged
The prat in the hat - www.floatingwombat.me.uk - Have look & say Hi

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,850
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2008, 09:42:35 pm »

Not too sure about that Wom. Titanic had two expansion joints and they were confined to the superstructure, allowing it to flex on top of the hull which was constructed as a more rigid girder. Therefore it's hard to understand how the flooding of the hull could have been affected by movement of the lightweight superstructure well above the waterline. Some more info here:
http://www.markchirnside.co.uk/Olympic-Titanic_expansionjoints-achillesheel-_myth.html

Most of what you hear/see/read about the Titanic is rubbish. There's even a book which suggests that the Titanic never sank at all as she swapped names with the Olympic just before the "maiden voyage".

Colin
Logged

wombat

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
  • The view from the shallow end of the gene pool
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2008, 09:46:35 pm »

Well it is another theory - no-one is ever going to know for sure.
Logged
The prat in the hat - www.floatingwombat.me.uk - Have look & say Hi

The long Build

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2008, 09:55:21 pm »


Most of what you hear/see/read about the Titanic is rubbish. There's even a book which suggests that the Titanic never sank at all as she swapped names with the Olympic just before the "maiden voyage".
Colin

Good read though..
Larry
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,850
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2008, 10:34:58 pm »

Quote
Well it is another theory - no-one is ever going to know for sure. 

Certainly true and I have to admit that it's always fun to speculate.
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,850
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2008, 11:05:11 pm »

Logged

farrow

  • Guest
Re: One idea..... Why did the Titanic sink.
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2008, 11:11:29 pm »

When built, the builders said she would survive if four compartments flooded. Unfortunately she flooded in at least five compartments, as stated by various survivors, this trim allowed the water to overflow the following w/t bulkheads in succession till she nosed dive. Why did she flood because of busted shell plating seams and w/t bulkheads built too low. This subject will go on for ever as everyone will try to find another angle on the tragedy, just like the Hood!!!!
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up