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Author Topic: Fairey Huntsman Power  (Read 35105 times)

FullLeatherJacket

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2008, 03:52:17 PM »

Hey! Don't shoot me! I'm just the piano player!!

Like I said, I'm just passing on what I've been told viz these motors are NOT your standard Graupner 700 fare. No-load RPM is all very well, but if you stick a 55mm 3-blade brass prop onto a direct-drive 700 and dunk it into the oggin then I would imagine it might object a bit. These geared jobbies don't slow down that much, and there's no denying that these guys actually run their models with such a set-up. I haven't met an Australian yet who has much time for theory. I will do some tests and maybe publish the results here.

BTW I have no plans at the moment to import these motors so I have no axe to grind here. Just trying to go at the problem from a different angle........... and I did design the Huntsman so I reckon I'm entitled to an opinion  8)

Best one I ever saw had a 15cc 4-stroke Channel Island Special in it............sounded as wonderful as it performed!

Suit yourselves, eh?

FLJ
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2008, 03:56:10 PM »

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll stick with the UK suppliers for now. If I ever plan another big, fast boat I'll look at getting one of these ESC's in though.

However, I've been pricing the bits up and to go down the Graupner motor route will cost slightly over 100.

According to thier advert, MFA can supply a Torpedo Power 850 pack (www.modelflightaccessories.com/products/powerpacks.shtml)for 49.95 plus 20 quid for the battery. OK so I get mechanical speed control for that money but I'm told these are OK if you look after them and for this model I can live with this. Question is, how much worse is this cheaper option ?

Thanks

Phil
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Stavros

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2008, 07:31:52 PM »

Sorry to say this but dont know where you are getting that the graupener route is over 100 absoloute drivel .Just checked price at Red bank Models motor is 13.95 ,speed controller 31.99 making a total of 45.94 Which low and behold wonder of wonders is 4 squid cheaper and a far better motor in my opinion.The Mfa speed controller is the old fashoned bobs board type and I have burnt so many out on a MFA 850 that I will not give them time of day.Have a serious think about saving 4 squid I would




Stavros
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2008, 08:12:58 PM »

Red bank models is a new name to me. I apologise for not knowing every suppliers catalogue intimately.

I'm guessing that you are saying I should use the Viper 25 - not any of the other speed controls mentioned so far. That suits me as I like Viper kit, it's well made and waterproof.

The 13.95 motor is the Graupner 700 Turbo not the 700BB turbo. The BB I guess stands for Ball Bearing meaning it's ballraced so will wear out slightly faster but for my purposes will be OK.

Any suggestions on the battery ? If possible I'd prefer a lead-acid as the boat needs the weight (2 X 6v's get it to waterline at present) but I suspect that a pair of 6V ni-cad packs wired to give 12V would work better. The motor is good up to 14v even though it's rated at 9.6V.

Phil
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Stavros

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2008, 09:06:57 PM »

I would use 2 x 7.2 stick pack to give 14 v and ballast accordingly


Stavros
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red181

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2008, 01:14:46 AM »

Phil, def go with Stravros on this one, re prices at Redbank, nice guy, situated in Blackpool (I think) the motor even as a bb cost me 15.00, just keep your eye on fleabay, I am sure Mark at A Modelworld had them at the recent Ellesmere show very reasonably priced also (mayhem member)Re the esc, I had a viper 20amp originally, it just kept cutting out, and my recent amp draw test, although holdiing the boat, was just over 15amps, so you might want to go a bit higher than 25amps, also I am sure the max volts on the viper is 12v, meaning you cant get up to the max volts for the motor, and as I stated previously, it makes a difference getting to the max volts. My 12v 700bb turbo is up to 19.2v
 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mtroniks-Super-E-Truck-Mega-RV-ESC-Speed-Control_W0QQitemZ180243241551QQihZ008QQcategoryZ34063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Lead acid batteries will be useless, they dont have the "punch" when delivering the amps, you will be able to put put around for ages, but once you go to speed, couple of mins its all over. I tried 3 x 6v lead acids, wired for 18v, thinking it would be ok, I got exactly 4 mins on the plane, then they where finished!thats why the fast electric guys dont use them.
Use nicad or nimh, I prefer nimh as they have no "memory effect", meaning tney dont have to be fully charged or discharged to use. I also tried lipo 3 cell 11.1v, wasnt  that impressed, although lighter in weight

Here is what you need (imo!! O0) or similar!

  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mtroniks-Super-E-Truck-Mega-RV-ESC-Speed-Control_W0QQitemZ180243241551QQihZ008QQcategoryZ34063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

But even this isnt high enough volts for a bb turbo, if you run it as I do at 19.2v

 http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/standard_motors.html for motor price comparison

FLJ's link looks nice, it depends what your battery budget is, I used componet shop to specifically make mine up so they fitted nice in the hull

Keep at it! O0

Paul
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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2008, 06:31:10 AM »

If possible I'd prefer a lead-acid as the boat needs the weight (2 X 6v's get it to waterline at present)
Phil
Phil
This is a planing hull, not a tanker. It needs ballasting down like a fish needs a bicycle. The static waterline should be treated as decoration. You should only add weight to adjust the trim, and that's only if you can't move existing loads around a bit.
FLJ
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das boot

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2008, 07:55:05 AM »

This is probably no help at all, but yonks ago I had the MFA Spearfish with a watercooled Bullet running on 20 x D cells and it went like stink. My ex-step brother in law had the bigger kit [Fantome?] that would'nt hardly move with the same set up, he ended up using TWO Bullets to get it to run.

As I said...no help at all.







I'll get me coat..... ::)
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2008, 01:02:22 PM »

If possible I'd prefer a lead-acid as the boat needs the weight (2 X 6v's get it to waterline at present)
Phil
Phil
This is a planing hull, not a tanker. It needs ballasting down like a fish needs a bicycle. The static waterline should be treated as decoration. You should only add weight to adjust the trim, and that's only if you can't move existing loads around a bit.
FLJ


I didn't explain myself properly - the batteries move the trim rather than lowering the hull in the water. With them in, the deck is horizontal, with them out and a lighter set of cells the bow points down. There isn't anything else with any weight inside so I suspect once the proper power pack is installed I'll need to pull the CG back with a bit of lead.

Phil
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2008, 01:31:30 PM »

OK

How about this set up:

Speed 700 turbo motor
Viper 25 Speed control
2 X 6V 2100mAH battery packs wired in series to give 12V

Will this get the boat on the plane ?

I've struck with the 6V packs as the speed controller won't take more than 12v input. They are also cheap and readily available. And useful for the size of models I normally build. I appreciate the boat won't be a rocket, but then our water isn't huge  and I just want it to look nice. That little pile is still 65.84 from Red Bank - more than the boat cost me but then that's normally the case.

Phil
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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2008, 02:00:22 PM »

Phil

Not a prayer, mate.

Forgive the crude imitation of rocket science here:
Our HP61F R/C glow motor put out about 750 Watts, with very little weight of fuel carried (16ozs of ethanol/oil mixture). On 12v a single electric motor would need to pull 62.5A to produce the same oomph. If you do the maths on the Oz set-up I outlined earlier then you'll find that two motors on 33v @ 15A chuck out about 1 kW total, so that's in with more than a decent shout to do the business. Of course, that's also with a large number of heavy cells that need to be humped around in addition to the power required to get a big hull up on the plane.
At the very best, your 25A ESC, 2100 mAh cells and 12v motor combo would be good for no more than 300W.....for less than five minutes.

Suit yourself.

FLJ
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Shipmate60

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2008, 02:06:46 PM »

There are always more than 1 way to get the desired result.
1 is to have a "small" motor turning a small prop at lots of revs.
OR
A larger motor turning a large prop slower.
What we are looking at is the volume of warer that can be "pumped" aft.
Yes the 70BBturbo will do it, but at high consumption and low run times.

Bob
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explorer750

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2008, 03:52:45 PM »

I run the 12v graupner 700BB turbo in a 28'' boat, that goes quick on 14v.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7763.0
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2008, 05:18:45 PM »

I think what we are saying here is that to get this boat on the water, performing properly (i.e running on the plane for more than 5 minutes) is going to hugely expensive. I've seen speed controllers costing well in excess of 100 mentioned, pairs of Australian motors and very high power battery packs.

What I'm not any clearer about is if it's worth bothering to do this. At 50 quid or so it seemed like an interesting project since I picked the boat up cheaply. At well over the ton, if you include ALL the bits, it just looks less appealing. I've obviously radically underestimated the commitment required to do this. I think I'll retreat and go and do something a bit easier.

Thanks for all your help.

Phil
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Shipmate60

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2008, 05:39:38 PM »

No Phil not necessarily.
To go the "Fast Electric" route you will need equipment that can handle huge currents, this can be expensive.
If you go for say a car blower motor you can use low power electrics or even the original 4 stage switch.
But the main expense will be a large prop if it will fit the hull.
She wont be quite as fast as for the same power she will be slightly heavier, but acceptable performance can be gained.
Most small motors when put under load will drop a surprising amount of rpm.
A blower motor wont as it is a much more torquey motor.
Before spending loads of cash I would suggest you ask for others who have different set ups then you decide.
Yes the 700BB turbo route will definitely work in your boat, but with heavy speed controllers, wiring specialist batteries and short run times.
As FLJ says, its up to you!!

Bob
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2008, 08:58:10 PM »

Well, I would get an 80mm diameter prop in without alteration. How fast does that need to turn to move this beast I wonder ?

At present the boat is fitted with a 6V Decaperm motor, or at least that is what it looks like.



The thing has plenty of torque and according to the sticker, revs at 6000rpm. Currently the boat has a 55mm diameter two blade prop. Now this isn't the sort of thing you put in a model on a whim so I wonder what the original builder was planning.

Phil
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Shipmate60

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2008, 09:20:06 PM »

Phil,
Deccaperms aren't my favourite motor.
The geared end will give you about 2750 rpm.
The reduction ratio if i remember correctly should be 2.5 or 2.75:1.
You could try the biggest prop that will comfortably fit with this motor.
If it doesn't go as you would like, sell that motor, on eBay they go for about 25-30 and use a car blower motor from a scrapyard.
These cost between 5-10.
I used to use Mk 3 Cortina blower motors, they are open cage with spherical bearings and run about 5000 rpm.
But they are a little rare these days.
On my Sirmar Girl class tug I used a deccaperm and about a 3 inch prop and she planed!
Bow right out of the water!!!
Didn't quite look right on a tug though.
Did you see the pic of the cruiser on the Kirklees thread, might be worth waiting to see if BunkerBarge can come back with some more details, and you can see by the pics if that is how you want yours to go.

Bob
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2008, 02:18:10 PM »

Since the cheapest test option is to keep the existing motor and fit a whacking great prop I'm going to order an 80mm diameter one and see what happens. Then if needs be I'll go hunting Cortina parts. If I do that though, I'll keep the motor as it's a 100 job and might fit very nicely into something else.

Phil
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Shipmate60

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2008, 04:30:09 PM »

One of the problems of Deccaperms is because they are so expensive they are expected to be all things to all men.
At the end of the dat they are just a motor running at just below 3000 rpm.
They are good for large scale warships with scale running gear and tugs.
But a 550 motor on 3:1 gearbox in my opinion is a far superior set up.
There are lots of older cruiser type hulls fitted with these and very few work as the owners want them to as they are fitted with a scale prop.
Your model will never be a fact electric with this set up but may be acceptable to you.
It might also be worth trying a small 6 volt battery to see if she will lift.


Bob
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Philipsparker

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2008, 09:10:51 PM »

Well, I've ordered a big prop. Once I get back from holiday I'll fit it and see how satisfied I am. Next stop a 540 or faster. If that doesn't work I'll have to go to the scrapyard and see if they have any old Cortina's.

That is unless the Premium Bonds come up and then the fast electric route is back on.

Thanks

Phil
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red181

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2008, 09:12:55 PM »

Phil, I think you are missing the point mate...

Plenty of good info has been put on this thread, you just need to disect from it what you want. For example, you have seen my video, and agree that is the performance you want. So, what did it cost, for say a 50 budget.

OK, the link to the 12v graupner 700bb turbo I posted was 24.00, however the non bb was 15 I think, without having to read it all again!. This will take up to 14v, as mentioned earlier, the best battery combo is 2 x 7.4v, (min 3000 packs to give an acceptable run time) wired to give 14.8v, so now you are at max volts and max performance for the 14v motor which with this combo will run forf15 to 18 mins approx. Those batteries will prob cost 12 each approx. Dont buy 2nd hand here, not worth it
The link to the esc, its a 14v esc, so you are ok here. THat ebay seller regularly sells mtroniks stuff, I think there is a link to mtroniks. Expect to pay 25, thats what I paid from that seller, just keep watching, so now up to 52 excluding postage, which is your budget.+

AS a comparison, mine will be faster, with the bb motor at 19v, and my batteries cost me 60, 2 x 4600 9.6v, the 4600 give it a longrer run time.  

It is a matter of what you want to spend, but at least you can see the results, it took me over 12 months to achieve that performance. Now... here is something, on thursday I am testing with a 600 bb speed turbo race motor, with will be on 9.6v, so if that works equally well, that will be a cheaper option for you
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Shipmate60

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2008, 10:31:36 PM »

pmdevlin,
I have seen your thread on the Fireboats thread, yes your system will work well, it is after all the fairly standard set up for fast boats.
The only difference on larger models is to put in 2 shafts.
I have a mate who runs large models very successfully with the twin screw set up.
It just depends if you want all out performance.
The Deccaperm running at 2750 will never give startling performance.
The MFA 850 will give better performance, and the 700BB Turbo will give startling performance.
Unfortunately all this was explained via pm and not in open forum.
But half the fun is to find alternatives at acceptable cost for acceptable performance and acceptable run times.
The owner of the model has to decide what "acceptable" is.
These models were designed for motors such as the Tycol Torpedo, a slow running motor.
The model itself is of quite heavy construction.
All this will have a bearing in speed and duration.
At last years Wicksteed there was a Perkassa which ran quite well on an MFA 850 using a 12 volt 7 AH battery.
I persuaded the owner to try a 12 volt 5 AH battery, the performance increase was impressive.
But the run times obviously suffered.
It is all about which compromise you will accept, cost, duration or speed!!

Just my thoughts

Bob
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Stavros

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2008, 11:26:39 PM »

I wonder who that chap was Bob


Stavros
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Shipmate60

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2008, 12:28:07 AM »

Feller called Dave, nice chap, dont think you will know him  ;)

Bob
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red181

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Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2008, 09:26:01 PM »

Bob,
Never actually seen a boat run on twin screws, I would love to see how much better it is. I was trawling ebay earlier, and saw a 38" pt boat with triple motors! bet that moves! I was tempted to go to twin screw, but didnt think my building capabilities or pocket (extra batteries, motor etc) would allow. It is a heavy old boat (mines all ply) and I think I am asking it to perform better than it should, if you know what I mean,
My bench mark was planing speed, for 15 mins, anything better than that was a win, which has occured, but I still dont think I have sorted the prop, its been an interesting thread with some good input. I was suprised to see that a 12v 5ah (do you mean a lead acid?) produced good speed, when I tried that it was a failure.
Paul
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