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Author Topic: s/s "Egham"  (Read 10742 times)

Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2008, 07:31:14 PM »

Better late than never. But some work has been done. There should be 6 pics to accompany this screed, so by pic numbers:-
2245..
Baseboard of 3/4"ply with a 3" x 4" stiffener underneath that clamps into the Workmate. 2" steel angle brackets bent outwards at the top to slot the backbone in. Section lines drawn.
Also the backbone (profile) of hull in 1/2" ply. Stations, waterline and deck levels marked. These were all originally marked off with fine lines, I have only made them thicker for clarity. Bow area chamfered to accept planking.
I really do appreciate that I am teaching a lot of you "to suck eggs", but there may also be many who would like to build their own hull but have never tried it, for whatever reasons.
2243...
The "backbone" slotted into place but not fastened. The shaded area at the stern will be removed and replaced with a 1/4" thick piece with the prop boss inserted. The section cut-outs are also shown. These shaped out of 1' sq. x 1/4" ply for regularity.
2240...
The stations loosely fitted. The arrow between stations 9 and 10 indicates the fo'c'sle bulkhead. Alas this did not coincide with a true station on my cobbled up drawing...so I had to draw up a new one. I first did this by cutting it out as half way between 9 and 10 and will shave it or use packing pieces as appropriate as planking progresses. Hope it works. The rear section not yet cut off. The "platform" at the stern will be marked with the shape (curve) of the deck.
2248..
No matter what the shape of the hull is I like to build withe the waterline horizontal. Decks and keels can go every which way, but the waterline is a "given". Also, to get a reasonable deck-edge and flange when making the mould I slot the stations to accept a 1/16" ply strip all round. This also defines the hull shape while building the "plug"without having to constantly check things. The rear end has now been amputated and given a the new part. I shan't make the final shape of the counter stern yet as I can never visualise the shape until most of the planking is done.
2249...
Much the same as 2248.
2250..
All is now permanently fastened to the baseboard. A cheap "hot-melt" glue gun is a godsend for this (and the planking). No more tacks etc. How did I ever manage without one! But what you see is now ready for planking. As it will eventually be a glass hull I don't need to be as precise with the planking as I would have to be if it was to be a properly planked wooden hull..but more of that much later. It may seem a bit "odd" to have what appears to be so much wasted space between the deck flanges and the baseboard. 2 reasons for that. The first is because of my desire to have the waterline horizontal, but the second reason is just as important to me. I have found that very often it is necessary to be able to put a hand up into the inside of the planking to glue a strip across 2 planks that need fairing up a bit.
Last purchase was glue sticks @ 3.00....total so far 28.20.
I'm a bit unhappy with either station 5 or 6. Either 5 is a bit narrow or 6 is a bit wide. Have to correct this before planking. Also chamfer some of the end stations to allow a cleaner run and a better glueing surface.
Also, as not everyone has access to a bandsaw, all the cutting up until now has been done with a jig-saw...and we all have one of those (?). That and a Stanley knife. Another great tool is a power file. Cheap as chips these days. With a bit of practice it is amazing what you can do with one of these.
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2008, 05:16:29 PM »

Now it's welcome to my world of - to paraphrase a weel known book - "The Art Of Coarse Modelling".
Bought some 1.5mm ply for planking and cut it up into 1/2" strips and when required cut the 1/2" ones into 1/4" ones. But at this stage I have gone as far as I can with that and will have to make some odd shaped pieces to "get back on track" as it were. You will notice the pure artistry that has gone into the alignment of the planks. It may well be incompetence, but in fact I don't need good alignment. a) it will all be filled with "bodge" and rubbed down. b) The whole thing is going to be "plated" anyway and c) it is a plug and not a hull. Apart from the baseboard, all this will eventually be destroyed. That is one of the reasons I use those little metal angle thingies rather than gluing blocks to the baseboard. i.e. I can use the board and angles again. The bow area planks had to be cut off with a "reasonable" degree of accuracy to avoid plank overlaps...the back end less so although they will be trimmed later. I'm not going to clag the more or less vertical sides on just yet....at least until I have got around the turn of the bilge, as I will still need to have room to insert digits and glue in little forming pieces. I think by the end of next week the rough plug should be planked up and I can begin to work out the shape of the stern.
Latest purchase :- 1.5mm ply @ 14.00
Total outlay so far = 42.20. Beginning to mount up.
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2008, 09:41:23 PM »

Plodding along with the planking. Lots of 1mm bracing strips between the planks to maintain curvature. Quite a lot of "bodge" will be needed as usual, but will all get sanded down to give me the shape required. Messy (dusty) but not difficult. Probably a mornings work. Still have to sort out the back end though. Think I will do all the sanding down in the garden when my neighbour has put her washing out
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GaryM

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2008, 10:03:50 PM »

That will make you popular! {-)

regards
Gary :)
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2008, 06:02:25 PM »

That will make you popular! {-)

regards
Gary :)
Yeah, we get along really well.
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2008, 07:48:25 PM »

Plodding along with the bow. The vertical bits are just to give a "landing" for the future application of "bodge", but there is still room for a couple more planks to be fitted in. This must be horrifying to those who spend forever planking a hull. Sorry. But it will all come out "in the wash" as it were.
Latest costings.
More 1.5mm ply at 6.00            (I am giving up on pences and stick with s) =49.
Card for plating....2                                                                                  51.
Bodge                  8                                                                                 59
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2008, 06:50:07 PM »

A bit of a milestone today. It is now 1 month since I started "Egham" with the post that said what I intended to do next. Seems a lot longer than that. Did the hull drawings, bought and cut the wood, done the planking. Honestly, I only spend about 4 hours a day building this thing. Normal life intervenes. Like shoving a supermarket trolley around a store and then eating whatever had been put in it. Reading books and going to the library. Driving down to the river to buy fish, and see what new ships have arrived. All normal day to day stuff. So I do have a bit of a life beyond modelling! It has helped that the weather has been a bit dismal so not much time has been spent enjoying that strange object known as "the sun" (Big thing in the sky, NOT a "newspaper").
Before completing the after end planking I slathered the front end with bodge and left it to harden off for a day. I know it all looks a bit messy but so what. The bodge is only there to let me sand it down and remove any sharp edges in the planking and give a clean curve and base for the plating. (Pic 2263).
Pic 2262 is just of the final bit of planking. The gaps don't matter. (Not to me, anyway).
Pic 2264 is a bit of a new departure for me. I have never done any "bread and butter" construction before, but the odd shape of this ships stern sort of cried out for it. I have used a heavy duty foam (out of a double glazing firms skip). Thats the pink stuff. Takes glue OK.
Pic 2266, As far as I have gone today. The foam is not fixed or shaped as I wish to smooth off the planking first...just to get rid of any sharp edges and give the plates a "clear run".
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2008, 06:29:29 PM »

Not all that long ago there was a discussion about useful tools. I totally and utterly forgot about this one. It is a "sort of" file/sanding gizmo that fits into a Bosch Jigsaw. As I haven't got a Bosch, it will not fit my B&D thing. But used as a hand-powered item it is wonderful. Takes off material better than a Gillette Tri-motor. I really don't know if they are still produced, but if you find one (or more) then buy them....and the boxes of spare pads. Absolute magic for shaping a hull.
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2008, 07:03:38 PM »

Although I haven't yet totally finished the contours of the stern I thought that I should at least be thinking of the hull plating. "Egham" was a very small ship (only 150' long but quite "beamy"). She was also a "long" raised quarterdeck ship althogh on a ship of this size the use of the word "long" could be open to debate. But whatever the length of the raised section, the level of the uppermost contiinuous deck is still the level of the sheerstrake. The cross-section pic of a raised quartedeck ship may explain this better than words. Also on the cross section you may see that the bottom plates are clinker laid. This was quite common at the time for ships of all sizes from coasters to Mauritania. This can make life difficult for modellers. In "real life" the clinker plates had to be supported against the frames with a wedge shaped filler piece...not really a practical solution for a modeller, and who looks at the bottom plates anyway. Deck plating is another matter, but that is a long way into the future. The 2nd pic (both courtesy of Mr. Waines books) shows the more conventional run of "in and out" plating. You could also find "joggled framing" and "joggled plating" on some ships, but with the more or less standard "in and out" a simple straight filler would suffice.For the modeller it really just means putting in a secondary layer of "plate" between the the run of the "inner" plates. This is better shown shown in the 3D drawing. This will be the method I shall use.
Without having a "shell expansion plan" it is always difficult to decide how many strakes of plating a ship should have. So it was nice to have these 2 drawings to hand. Both of coasters of similar size to "Egham". So once I have finished forming the stern I can begin marking off the hull for the plating.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2008, 01:59:17 PM »

That's the very sketch I used to design the bulwark stays on the Ben Ain.

All these books by either Waine or Thomas are worth thier weight in gold for this type of modelling.
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2008, 07:27:08 PM »

Bunkerbarge, did you plate your hull or is it smooth? I only ask as I can foresee problems looming. The stern contours are becoming a real pain. Using HD foam has not been the best decision I have ever made. The foam itself is OK, but attempting to do it in layers is something I wouldn't do again. Win some, lose some. The problem arises with sanding down over the adhesive (tape) that really clogs up the sanding medium. I shan't use this method again. Block Balsa is far too expensive to just experiment with, and as I have now got one side done I may as well plod along with the other. With one side "satisfactory" (not perfect), I have sliced the "done" part into vertical sections and transferred the sections to the other side. But I really, really do not like this method. My fault for trying it. seemed like a good idea at the time. I think (operative word being "think") that I might cut the foam section back and put on a 1/8" of bodge and carve that to shape. No complaints yet from next door...
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Stavros

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2008, 10:42:28 PM »

This is going to be one heck of a large Boat interseting though all the same.


stavros
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2008, 07:00:31 PM »

Stavros:- thanks for your interest. The model isn't really that large, only 55" long, but a bit "beamy" and with a 4" draught. Without having access to any hull drawings I hope it turns out OK.
Now that I have "done" the counter stern to the best of my ability and failing eyesight plus a bit of boredom/frustration seeping in I decided to change direction a bit and lay the keel plates. These will be "inner" plates and will include the "coffin" and "sole" plates..only got as far as the "coffin" today. (pic 2287). The "cut-out" at the back will eventualy house the stern-frame/rudder post as on "Havelock".  Pic 2887a is just a closer look at the 1st one, but better shows how I get over the "double-thickness" prblem that arises when butts and strakes overlap. As this (keel) strake is an "inner", a second (hidden) strake will have to be laid alongside it before the garboard (outer) strakes can be fitted. (i.e. 2 layers). I'll attempt to show that later, but all that was just really to explain what the 1'8" sq. cutouts on the plates are for. When any "outer" strake is laid it must overlap the seams of the "inner" ones, so having those little cut-outs lets the outer strake lie flush. You may also notice how small and faint the rivet marks are. But these will show up quite well on the final hull. To avoid "clutter" I generally just use a double row of rivet markings on the butts, and a single row on the seams. As I have said before, if you want to mark all the rivets that hold a ship together then you will finish up with a hull suffering from a terminal case of zits.
Pic 2290 shows the incomplete stem bar. I won't finish this off until I know how the plate runs lie. I think a stealer plate may be required. I know the whole thing looks a bit rough, but I don't ming little hollows...as long as there are no humps.
No further expenditure as yet.....
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2008, 07:05:55 PM »

After watching the Hungarian GP I thought that I should be doing something constructive. Felt sorry for Massa, but not for Ferrari. Perhaps they "overtweaked" the engine?
But back to the mundane. In the enclosed pic I am attempting to show the various relationships of the "in" and "out" plating. Normally I would do this on a whole length basis, but as this is to just give an idea, I have only done a small area. The "shaded" areas are the "filler" strakes and only serve to stop the "outer" strakes sort of collapsing in on themselves. The plating is also tapered a little to eventually give a clean run to the strakes. I can only hpoe that you can see what I am on about. It will be obvious now why I am not too fussy about having gaps in the wooden sheathing. I suppose there are people around with accurate measuring sticks that will say my hull is 6" wider than it should be. Tough. Prove me wrong. I am only trying to build a model of a long ago and forgotten little ship....not an engineering masterpiece. In the pic it is difficult to see the rivet markings, but they are there and will show up on the final hull. Continue with the plating next week...in a more logical way.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2008, 11:27:10 PM »


Posts sorted!  O0            Hic!!

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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2008, 05:44:53 PM »

I am becoming a little paranoid on this subject of "scale". I really cannot see how 1/32 can be real. As 1/48 is 1/4" to the foot, and 1/24 is 1/2" to the foot it is mathematically certain that 3/8" to the foot has to be 1:36 scale. So where does 1:32 come into it? Or am I missing something really obvious? Working "backwards" I can mathematically come up with a 1:32, but that then becomes a conundrum. Still confused. BY.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2008, 06:45:17 PM »

Sorry Bryan, I missed your earlier question.

The Ben Ain hull was ready plated and I added the rivet detail to the edges of the plates in something like what I think would have been an appropriate period arrangement.
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kiwi

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2008, 08:01:38 PM »

Hi Bryan,
1/32 = 3/8"to 1'-0" when I went to school, any way you work it out.
I'm no mathematician but have always worked on there being two scale series which where adhered to in British established countries.
One, going 1/2 (6'), 1/4 (3"), 1/8 (1 1/2"), 1/16 (3/4"), 1/32(3/8"), 1/64 (3/16"), etc.
The other going 1/3 (4"),1/6 (2"), 1/12 (1"), 1/24 (1/2"), 1/48 (1/4"), etc.

1/36 is from the odd series 1/9, 1/18, 1/36, 1/72, etc

These where all drummed, over and over, into all us cadet draughties, back when we all used Imperial measure for everthing, and it sort of stuck in a couple of the old grey cells, even though its all metric now with the very odd scales due to iso reductions in sheet sizes.

Anyway, have been following you build with interest, especially your plating technique, as I am about to embark in plating a 1/48th scale hull of a kiwi riverboat from the 1860's, which fortunately for me uses a very simple transverse in-out, & longitudinal butt method. Also find your ship tales from your life facinating, keep them coming.
Hope this helps a little

kiwi
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2008, 08:58:14 PM »

So why have AFV's for all these years been made in 1/35th scale? ::)
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kiwi

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2008, 10:48:41 PM »

That goes alongside, 'why is the meaning of life 47?'
 {-)
kiwi
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2008, 10:56:34 PM »

Hi Bryan,
1/32 = 3/8"to 1'-0" when I went to school, any way you work it out.
I'm no mathematician but have always worked on there being two scale series which where adhered to in British established countries.
One, going 1/2 (6'), 1/4 (3"), 1/8 (1 1/2"), 1/16 (3/4"), 1/32(3/8"), 1/64 (3/16"), etc.
The other going 1/3 (4"),1/6 (2"), 1/12 (1"), 1/24 (1/2"), 1/48 (1/4"), etc.

1/36 is from the odd series 1/9, 1/18, 1/36, 1/72, etc

These where all drummed, over and over, into all us cadet draughties, back when we all used Imperial measure for everthing, and it sort of stuck in a couple of the old grey cells, even though its all metric now with the very odd scales due to iso reductions in sheet sizes.

Anyway, have been following you build with interest, especially your plating technique, as I am about to embark in plating a 1/48th scale hull of a kiwi riverboat from the 1860's, which fortunately for me uses a very simple transverse in-out, & longitudinal butt method. Also find your ship tales from your life facinating, keep them coming.
Hope this helps a little

kiwi
That goes alongside, 'why is the meaning of life 47?'
 {-)
kiwi
But no-one has yet explained why the perfect mid-point between 1/48 and 1/24 should not be 1/36! Surely this is obvious. My brain hurts.
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kiwi

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2008, 12:46:07 AM »

Hi Bryan,
javascript:void(0);
To get to 1/36 in an arithmetical progression we have,

1/3, 1/6, 1/9, 1/12, 1/18, 1/24, 1/36, 1/48, 1/72, 1/96, etc

In all the others each is double the preceding one.
In this one you add half the receding one to itself to get the answer. (different formula)
As I'm no mathematician, and my brain now hurts, I'm going to go plate a hull.javascript:void(0);
javascript:void(0);
kiwi
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2008, 05:42:32 PM »

Got a bit bored with the plating so decided to fit the prop shaft bossing. Wish I hadn't. Made a right cats backside out of it. Still, can't do much about it now except rub area down until it looks OK, then "plate" over the top. Some days just don't seem to work out.
Paid a visit to "my" model shop just for a chat...seen the new RTR (see, I can learn the idiom if taught!) from Graupner of what I think is a 1960s "Geest" type banana carrier? Only 900. Very nice model, but no building pleasure...and it only proves you have spare cash. "They" have already sold one...in this supposedly depressed area!
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Bob

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2008, 11:39:48 AM »

Hello Bryan,    Try this for an explanation of the scale 1:32

Now in a length of 12 inches there are 96 eiights

So if 1/8" reresents 12 inches (96 x 1/8ths) it is said to be a ratio 1:96

so if  1/2" ( 4/8ths ) represents 12inches divide 96 by 4 and it igives a ratio of 1:24

and if 1/4" or 2/8ths represents 12 inches divide 96 by 2 and it is a ratio of 1:48

so therefore if  3/8" is to represent 12 inches divide 96 by 3 which gives a ratio of 1:32

Hope this helps clarify the different expressions of scale

Cheers Bob Ferguson
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Bryan Young

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Re: s/s "Egham"
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2008, 07:54:32 PM »

That was my alternative way! Mathematically (to me, anyway) it makes no sense. So 1:36 is a "true scale". But I still don't know why (logically) 1:32 is there. Sorry. Brain freezes up./
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