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Author Topic: Hull Frame Stations & Sections  (Read 4056 times)

RickF

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Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« on: July 18, 2008, 01:56:25 pm »

I'm sure there have been topics on this before, but a search of the site has not thrown anything up, so here goes.

I understand hull lines, frame etc, and can convert a conventional set of lines into a construction drawing for a model. However, for the vessel I am currently researching I have only drawings published in a book. These comprise profiles, plans and numbered sections  (eg  "Section 131 looking aft"). There is no indication on the profiles as to the location of these sections.

Am I right in assuming that these sections are numbered from the bow at two feet intervals, or are there different conventions  for different ships? Do they start at the forward perpendicular, the waterline or, in this case, the tip of the ram bow? The vessel is a late Victorian battleship.

Thanks in advance

Rick
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John W E

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 03:33:55 pm »

Hi there Rick

Could I enquire please as to which book you are obtaining your line drawings from?    The reason I ask is I spent a good few hours doing what you are doing now - i.e. transferring frames etc., to a scale drawing of a 'K' class submarine - only to find that the drawing had been distorted so that it may be published/printed in the book I have (Warship by Conway).   I could not get the frames to line up with the profile. 

In the same book (Warship as above) there is a line drawing of a Victorian dreadnaught type design battleship - TEGETTHOFF - and the sections are numbered from the centre of the vessel out towards the bow they go from 10-110 and then from 10-100 towards the stern, but, these are not drawn evenly.   There is also another drawing in the book which is drawn by Mr John Lambert and these only show intermediate sections but look as though they are numbered from the stern to the bow, evenly.

I think we must treat with caution drawings which come from books - unless we know that the drawings are from a good draughtsman (as in the case of the drawing by John Lambert).

Aye
john e
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RickF

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 07:20:53 pm »

John,

The book I'm using is R A Burt's "British Battleships 1889-1904" which is generally reckoned to be authoritative.

However, like you, I've seen some supposed "accurate" drawings that don't pass muster - the more photographs that you compare them with the worse they get.

There must be a convention with sections, though, otherwise they become meaningless if their position is not indicated on the profile.

Rick
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John W E

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 07:48:55 pm »

Hi ya there Rick

Just a thought; hows about drawing a centre line to represent the centre of the hull; mark off the length of the hull on this centre line; divide it by the number of frames that you have equally.  Starting say, at the bow, mark the width of your first frame off.   Carry on marking all the widths of your frames off so that you create an approximate outline of the deck profile.

You can then adjust, by moving your frames back and forth, the outside profile.

Have you any photographs or drawings of the top profile of the vessel?  Does it have any sidebar bits on?  Does it have barbetts (gun encasements) on the side of the hull - or any armour plating?
that would be shown up on the side view.

These would give you some indication where certain frames would go; food for thought.  O0

aye
John e
bluebird
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catengineman

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 08:42:09 pm »

Hi All,

Just a little thing which has me all befuddled now your posts mention possition of frames and numberings.

Arent all ships / vessels frames number marked from the stern? or is it different for models from plans.
I am starting to construct my latest vessel (THAMES) which I have to make two models yes two one for me and one a commission build for the company I work for, I am following the GA, Line Arrangements, and Hull plans (originals) these are all marked from stern to bow FRAME 1 being at the AFT perp and FRAME 133 at the Fwd perp the vessel having a total of 138 frames.

R,
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RickF

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2008, 08:49:20 pm »

Gents,

Here is part of the drawing in question. John's idea should work, but  I still think that there must be a system. These sections are definitely numbered from the bow.

Rick
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Shipmate60

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 12:26:21 am »

Section 156 looks close to where the shafts exit the hull.
Is there any frame numbers or section numbers around there to check it on?

Bob
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2008, 09:49:30 am »

And section 165 can be located by reference to the A frames supporting the shaft.

Colin
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John W E

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2008, 10:13:57 am »

good morning RickF

Ricky right - these drawings that you have scanned and put on the Forum here - are these the actual sections you will be working from?

Or, do you have the line drawing of the frames to work from? as well as these sectional drawings??

The reason I am asking is; some of the early Victorian plans which Grenwich Maritime Museum hold, should be classed as 'Artworks' rather than plans because of their detailing and colouring.  Unlike modern day plans which do show you the basics, some of the Victorian plans do give cross-sectional views as well to show where items were located in the Ship - very similar to what your scan shows.

The only drawback with using these sections as reference is that they can be at any particular place, for instance the view of the A frame and propeller shaft, this section could be at the end of the A frame in the middle of the A frame or at the far end of the A frame; giving a slightly different dimension across the width at each particular section.

The next section could be, say, the engine room; but, it may be the front end/middle/or back of the engine compartment.

So, you can begin to see the problem you may encounter.

If you look at the very bottom of the plan view - at keel level - you will note the double-bottoms (little squares with circles in).   If we can calculate the distance between these double-bottoms & then scale it; this may be a better way to give you a reference between the frame spacings because these spacings should be equally divided.

The other thing to consider is; these sectional views of the hull may only have been put in by the author to show the readers where things were located in the hull.  It may, therefore, be 'just' an indicating shape of the frame - and - not an exact dimensional shape.

Aye - just food for thought
John E
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RickF

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2008, 10:26:43 am »

Thanks guys.

Bob, what you see on that drawing is what you get - no indication of frame stations.

I can locate each section roughly on the hull by transposing its width onto the deck plan and, as Colin says, by referring to features on the section. My original question was as to whether there was a convention or system in numbering frame stations. There seems to be no point in identifying section numbers unless they can be accurately positioned on the hull drawing.

John, drawings from various books are all I have to go on at the moment. I don't want to take out a second mortgage and buy plans from Greenwich at this stage, although if the project gets serious (and the boss lets me) I may do so - the price for a set of pre-Dreadnought drawings will be frightening!

I counted off the "frames" on the drawing of the double bottom and there are less than 120 - certainly less than 165, so that method is a non-starter.

Once again, thanks for your interest.

Rick
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2008, 10:53:53 am »

Rick,

At this period, warship designs were evolving and very often the basic hull design was very similar from one class to the next. I rather fear that John is right in saying that the sectional views may be representative rather than precisely accurate. Your best bet might be to get hold of lines plans for a similar ship of the same period, somebody on here may be able to help, and tweak these to match the deck plan and elevations that you already have.

Colin
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dreadnought72

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2008, 03:05:45 pm »

Rick - I think you'll be ok. Looking at the framing of the double bottom, there's a regular spacing - it might be four feet or three feet or two feet for a ship of this period and UK-built. Please check!

The station numbers will be counting up from the bow. On the Dreadnought, the frames start three feet apart and are numbered sequentially, then they "drop" to two feet apart for the central section, but only alternate frames are sued, so the numbers go up by twos. Nearer the stern the frames drop to three feet apart again.

I found (once I'd got my head around it) there was a direct correlation between the station numbers and the frames as drawn. I suspect you'll be able to find the same thing.

Can you post a jpg of the whole hull?

Andy
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RickF

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2008, 11:44:30 pm »

OK Andy - here is what I have. HMS Empress of India, as drawn in Burt's "British Battleships 1889-1904".

What I plan to do is try to position the sections on the profile/deck plan, then relate that position to a hull station.

Rick
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RickF

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2008, 11:50:52 pm »

Thats not going to be easy to read, is it. Here's a link to a better version on Photobucket.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee59/RickF_photos/eoiprof.jpg

Rick
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2008, 12:04:48 am »

I see your problem. There doesn't seem to be enough info on the drawing to accurately locate the sections. However, with a bit of experimentation you could probably draw up a set of lines but it will be a fiddly job.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 07:02:20 pm »

OK Andy - here is what I have. HMS Empress of India, as drawn in Burt's "British Battleships 1889-1904".

What I plan to do is try to position the sections on the profile/deck plan, then relate that position to a hull station.

Rick
I wish the enlargements could be a little clearer. But even from the fuzzy enlargements most of the station positions are reasonably clear.Certainly enough detail to make template drawings. There still seems to be a lot of confusion between "frame" drawings and "section" drawings. Please, as modellers, in general forget the existence of "frame" drawings and concentrate on "sections". Unless you really do want to build a model with frames a scale distance apart of maybe 2 ft. Sections are numbered from aft (in Britain) with section "0" (zero) and are then equidistant as prime numbers along the ships length. Half and quarter sections are exactly what they appear to be. I would suggest that you find a section position that you can recognize on the profile and use that as a datum. But remember that full sections are always the same distance apart. I think that if you cut out the sections (port and stbd.) and place the cutouts on top of each other you will be able to see the "run". Look at my pics of Egham with the station cut-outs laid out in front of the profile. Cheers. BY.
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RickF

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 07:54:00 pm »

Thanks Bryan -  I think I understand what you are saying, but how does it relate to the drawing I have? You say sections are numbered from the stern, but this is clearly not the case with this drawing, as section 24 shows the anchor bed and section 146 the stern tubes! I agree that the position of the frames can be seen on the keel, but, of course, they are not a constant distance apart, as I assumed sections to be  - as indeed you confirm.

What I don't understand is "equidistant as prime numbers". Do you mean this in the mathematical sense - (2, 3, 5, 7, 11 etc) or is there some other interpretation?

I have constructed an equispaced numbered overlay and positioned the numbered sections I have where they seem to fit the ship's beam best. Using this I have varied the spacing of the overlay until it all fits. Not perfect, but until a set of lines becomes available it will have to do.

Thanks for your interest

Rick
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dreadnought72

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2008, 02:47:14 pm »

Hi Rick - thanks for the full image of the ship, and apologies for my delay in replying. I've got so much on.

I took a good look at the image on Friday and it seems clear that the forward frames (seen in the profile) are three feet apart, the centre section four feet, and the stern section three feet. With a couple of feet "bodge" to the centre of the rudder shaft from the last obvious frame, I calculated the between perpendiculars distance to be 380 feet, based on the numbers of three and four foot spaces from the waterline afterwards to the rudder shafts, as fits the class.

The frame drawn nearest the bow should be frame "0", and I can get the forward sections to fit ok up to the front of the boiler room. At the stern, assuming section 165 is at or in front of the A frames this also makes sense for a few of the frames moving forward. However, the middle sections seem, at times, to be misnumbered - there's no obvious way to locate all these to the frames drawn. (And bearing in mind that - on the Dreadnought at least - the sections of four foot frame spacing count as "2" in terms of section numbers).

So - I don't get it.

The solution - short of buying NMM plans for the class! - I'd draw out, at the desired scale, an elevation and plan for the hull, using the measurements you know, along with the three-foot/four-foot frame spacing you can infer from the small plan you have, to ensure components end up in the place they must have been when the ship was constructed. I'd scale up to this size the sections you have, and fit them where they match the plan and elevation. Use these to construct waterlines on the plan, and once that's done, then you'd be able to mark (and make) bulkheads/frames wherever you wish, with a fair assertion that the hull form was a reasonable one.

Andy
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dreadnought72

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2008, 02:00:32 am »

***Edited: removed reference to a previously deleted post***

My personal experience (using the AoTS book on the Dreadnought) has enabled me to produce a 1/72nd scale hull from drawings (down to 1/384th) that is (at worst) within a couple of millimetres of perfect, by understanding what the drawings mean - that is, something developed from and based on the original design and measurements. I know what the frames were, and have used some of them to make my own sections. I think Rick is attempting something similar.

Andy
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tigertiger

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2008, 03:12:06 am »

***Topic tidied up***
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RickF

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Re: Hull Frame Stations & Sections
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2008, 10:14:33 am »

My modem has been playing up and I've missed all the above. I purposely didn't get involved, though I guess somebody else did. All I want to do is draw up the hull plans.

Rick
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