Topic: Large Scale Sail Winches (Read 38321 times)

Tom Eccles · « **Reply #50 on:** July 27, 2008, 07:29:04 pm »

I am LOVING this!

Keep it up guys.

Clegg

roycv · « **Reply #51 on:** July 27, 2008, 10:49:23 pm »

Hi all again, there is another system I make no claim to, as I read about it somewhere.

It uses a servo and a separate motor / sail winch. The motor o/p has a further reduction gearing so that full travel of the winch gives a 1/4 turn of a shaft. On this are mounted 2 micro switches. The wiring to the winch motor / battery is such that if you press one micro switch the motor moves the switch AWAY from the push on the micro switch. The same goes for the other micro switch but in the other direction.

The micro switches are mounted either side of a servo arm, or a servo arm is positioned between them. The servo arm should have the same centre of movement as the shaft with the micro switches. When the servo is moved it will depress a micro switch until the winch motor moves through the gear reduction to move the switch away and so turn off or neutralise the winch motor.
The Tx. end needs to have the centring spring removed from the operating lever and the ratchet fitted, removing the self centring.

You now have an amplified servo motor system which is proportional to the movement of the servo.
The draw backs are that the servo moves quickly, so if the micro switch system can be sprung on its rotation it would solve this.
The other way is to slow down the servo using a servo slowing circuit, there is a servo slower which was an Action kit.
I use mine to slow down an arm winch that moves too quickly, works a treat.
hope this may help.
regards Roy

MikeK · « **Reply #52 on:** July 28, 2008, 08:27:15 am »

Hi Roy, this system sounds similar to my forgotten Model Boats system, inasmuch as the disc with two wipers was fitted on a servo and the brass disc with nul strip, on the winch shaft. Move the servo one way and the wipers made the circuit on the disc and set the winch in motion, which then revolved the disc until the insulated strip was again below the wipers, stopping the winch at that point. Moving the wipers in the other direction reversed the current and the whole procedure repeated. I still haven't got round to figuring out the wiring, I need a couple of weeks notice to get the old grey matter in motion !

regards

Mike

JayDee · « **Reply #53 on:** July 28, 2008, 04:25:16 pm »

Hello,
A Screwdriver Winch
The winch body is made from PCB fibregass / Copper board, soldered together, then Super glued on the fibreglass side.
This makes very strong structures, two small ball bearings are fitted at each end.
The shaft end has two small hexagon steel nuts, locked and soldered together, which fit into the drive of the screwdriver.

The whole assembly needs to be mounted onto a piece of Ply, with 4 holes drilled into it to take two strong TY-Wraps to
anchor the motor body to the board.
The rest of the controls will be as for the " Sheet winch " with 2 switches to set the sheet travel.
Still working on how to get over the "Over run" without it destroying the switches !!.

John

Jimmy James · « **Reply #54 on:** August 06, 2008, 10:42:39 pm »

All these expencive winches why??? I almost always use a capstan verticly mounted on a 100/1 geared motor comming through the deck an endlass line with 3 or 4 turns around the catstan drum running fore or aft along the deckthrough a lead block with a tentioning spring will easly pull 25 to 35 kg you can control it with a home made bob's board or 2 or 4 micro switches (If you need limit switches) the whole will cost around £25 or £30 --It's easy to repair or service and looks seaman like.
Freebooter(Jimmy James)

kiwimodeller · « **Reply #55 on:** August 15, 2008, 12:23:33 pm »

Hi all, I have read through this very interesting thread with growing trepidation! I am just starting on my first yacht build using a winch and was not anticipating anywhere near this much drama. JayDee can you tell me how big your J is? I am building a 48" J on a hull from the Christchurch Yacht Club and most of the members there only use a HiTec 725 or 785 (the new model) I am told so I was not anticipating having to go to anything expensive like a Whirlwind or RMG. I presume that as well as sail area the leverage and travel have some influence. Can anybody give me some idea of the length of the movement needed on the winch line and also how far along the boom one should attach the sheet? Any other postings or articles with suggested layout would be helpful. Thanks, Ian.

JayDee · « **Reply #56 on:** August 15, 2008, 01:04:45 pm »

Hello Ian,
My J is 72 inches long, the main boom is 33 inches long.
I fitted a Hitec HS815BB to the boat and it failed after only 10 minutes !!.
You WILL need a big winch, the sail area on my boat is about 1600 sq inches.
At the moment winches are the weak link, I am working on a Mega Winch, no idea
when it will be finished, still got details to work out, so, watch this Space !!!.
John.

ooby · « **Reply #57 on:** August 15, 2008, 05:16:48 pm »

It looks like many would rather build your own winch, but, for what it's worth, this one has worked so far on a fairly large boat using 4.8Volts. Scale: 1:12, LOA: 72 in, Beam: 12 in, Displacement: 38 lbs, Sail area: 1582.5 sq in. Winch: Ozmun Designs W-12. Ozmun particulars: 3808 Fox Rd, Huron, Ohio 44839, Phone: 419-433-3025, Phone and Fax: 419-433-6016. Ozmun has been around a long time. I sail one of their earlier EC-12 Class hulls.

kiwimodeller · « **Reply #58 on:** August 16, 2008, 12:14:51 pm »

Thanks for that JayDee. My J at 48" has a lot less sail area than yours at 72" so I hope the Hi Tech will cope with the sails I have. Can you give me some idea of the position on the booms that the sheets are connected? i.e. is the sheet 2/3rds of the way along from the mast, 3/4 of the lenght or ??. Also is the jib boom position the same or different? Thanks, Ian.

JayDee · « **Reply #59 on:** August 16, 2008, 02:12:00 pm »

Hello Ian,

My Main Boom is 36 inches long, the sheets are set at 24 inches.
The jib boom is much shorter, with the sheets set at 17 inches, almost at the boom end, to be correct both booms
should have their sheets set at the exact same distance from the pivots.
This preserves the sail settings throughout the range of movements. but is not too easy to do with a Scale boat.

I have not told my boat that its sails are not quite right !, but it still sails very well !!.
Don't forget that these are Scale boats, not out and out Racers.
The racer boats have very strict limits on the sail area for a given Hull length, Scale ones usually have lots more sail
area for the same Hull size, so they are sometimes just as fast as the racers.

John.

kiwimodeller · « **Reply #60 on:** August 17, 2008, 11:03:27 am »

That is great thanks and fits with other info I have been given. I will put the winch and loop under the deck and leave the exact positioning of the fairleads in the deck until I am closer to completion. I will make the mount on the booms so it can be slid along the booms to fine tune it. Again thanks for your help. Regards, Ian.

Tester · « **Reply #61 on:** June 17, 2009, 08:49:13 pm »

Hi

This is the winch arrangement in a restoration project I've been given, haven't tested it yet or decided to replace with something a little more modern.

Richard

tigertiger · « **Reply #62 on:** June 18, 2009, 01:39:44 am »

Hi tester.

That looks like it is using a cordless drill motor, very high torque.
If it still works and the stop/limit switches still work you can stick with it.

If your restoration project has a very large sail area, that would explain the use of a high torque motor.
In that case you may be limited in choice of replacement winches. Perhaps the bigger RMG sail winches. But these are expensive.

http://www.smartwinchuk.co.uk/index.html

Tester · « **Reply #63 on:** June 18, 2009, 08:55:23 am »

Hi TT

The sails look to be an old set of Marblehead sails for a groovy mast but held on by luff rings. I will test the winch over the next couple of days and see if it still works. Not to sure how its connected yet. It appears to have one power connector so I presume the receiver has its own power supply.

roycv · « **Reply #64 on:** June 18, 2009, 11:52:13 am »

Hi all, I think you will find that the 'cordless drill' motor is a como motor connected to a pile gearbox. If that system is still working I would still use it. It looks like it operates from micro switches and possibly non-proportional. My experience of RC sailing is that you go by where the sails are and not worry about proportional control. Limit switches will protect the sails from being dragged in too far. Looks a nice project I am envious!!!!

The last large sailing yacht I restored was an Inga IV and I ended up stripping her out completely and almost starting again, but that was because there were 4 battery systems and it was difficult to reach parts of the model. I did keep the winch system which was the old double winch 'Century' servo and it looked nice and still worked OK.
I changed the drive motor and everything worked off one 6 volt supply.

Inga IV has a motor (never late for lunch with a motor!). I changed the drive motor so that everything worked off one 6 volt 4 AH supply, and as a last minute fitting I put in a modern ESC. After the first sailing which went well I brought her back into the workshop (OK so it's a shed!) and found a very hot positive wire.

It turned out that the ESC had a BEC in it, although it was not marked as such, and the BEC output was fighting the 6 volt Nicad supply so I changed over to an old Hitec ESC and all is well now.

I have pictures if anyone wants to see.
regards to all Roy

Tester · « **Reply #65 on:** June 20, 2009, 03:07:32 pm »

Hi All

Well looks like the old winch is not going to work for a while, corroded joints, switches etc. So I'll be looking for an alternative to pull in around 800 sqr. inches of sail. Any ideas welcomed

Richard

tigertiger · « **Reply #66 on:** June 21, 2009, 12:37:23 am »

If you are looking for a cheap alternative.
You could switch over to a sail arm servo setup using the Hitec HS815BB. It is a 1/4 scale servo and they cost about 30 GB Pounds.

The Victor Models Valkyre is also 800sq inches, and it uses the HS815BB.

I have to admit I am biased towards sail arms as they are faster and dont get tangled up, as there is not drum for sheet so slip off of.

billekens · « **Reply #67 on:** August 05, 2009, 02:52:58 am »

I have been following this thread with much interest and have seen the diagram that Jaydee posted. I have a question that I do not have an answer for and that is about the two diodes that are in the circuit. What is the reason for them? Could they be left out? There must be some silly answer for them being in the circuit but I do not know.
Keep this threat going, please

billekens · « **Reply #68 on:** August 06, 2009, 02:42:20 pm »

This morning at six when I was still in a state of half sleep it came to light. The diodes are a one way conductor and when the micro switch is open the diodes makes it possible to revers the motor and are used until the micro switch is closed again. Funny how you get your best solutions to any problem early in the morning when still half asleep. I build half my projects this way. Thanks anyway for your times and efforts.

Bill

tigertiger · « **Reply #69 on:** August 06, 2009, 02:58:53 pm »

Ah!
The eureka moment.

I heard a story about Newton, possible myth.
He used to sit in his rocking chair holding an iron ball in his hand, by his side. At the moment he 'nodded off' the ball would slip from his fingers and the subsequent crash would wake him. The reason? He believed that many of his creative thoughts came to him in his semiconscious state. Or so the story goes.

I believe today they call this type of creative tool, 'doing a noddy'.

tigertiger · « **Reply #70 on:** August 06, 2009, 03:00:24 pm »

Quote from: billekens on August 06, 2009, 02:42:20 pm

This morning at six when I was still in a state of half sleep it came to light. The diodes are a one way conductor and when the micro switch is open the diodes makes it possible to revers the motor and are used until the micro switch is closed again. Funny how you get your best solutions to any problem early in the morning when still half asleep. I build half my projects this way. Thanks anyway for your times and efforts.

Bill

So is this like a reverse polarity switch? Not being a sparky, I wouldn't know.

billekens · « **Reply #71 on:** August 06, 2009, 04:38:25 pm »

Diodes allow electricity to flow in only one direction. The arrow of the circuit symbol shows the direction in which the current can flow. It allows current in one direction and block current in the opposite direction.

Bill

ianb · « **Reply #72 on:** August 15, 2009, 04:08:46 am »

I, too had no idea that the subject of suitable sail winches would be so complicated.

At the moment I'm looking at building a Metcalf "Moonbeam" and found a sail winch from Futaba, S5801, which has an output torque of 9.8kg-cm on 7.2 volts. The drum dia is 30mm so that should give a pull of about 3.27 kg at the drum with an adjustable rotation of 2 to 6 revolutions.

Now you guys have me worried that it may not be sufficiently powerful. What is the opinion from the experts?

Ian

Welsh_Druid · « **Reply #73 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:54:56 am »

Quote from: ianb on August 15, 2009, 04:08:46 am

I, too had no idea that the subject of suitable sail winches would be so complicated.

At the moment I'm looking at building a Metcalf "Moonbeam" and found a sail winch from Futaba, S5801, which has an output torque of 9.8kg-cm on 7.2 volts. The drum dia is 30mm so that should give a pull of about 3.27 kg at the drum with an adjustable rotation of 2 to 6 revolutions.

Now you guys have me worried that it may not be sufficiently powerful. What is the opinion from the experts?

Ian

I use Hitec HS785HB sail winches in all my yachts including my MOONBEAM, a 1 metre and a Marblehead. I have had no problems with lack of power using 4.8 volts in the Moonbeam and 6 volts in the others. These winches are only £23 at Howes - why pay more ?

Don B.

ianb · « **Reply #74 on:** August 15, 2009, 08:01:18 am »

Thank you Don, for your information from experience. I looked up Hitec here in Japan and found the servo you recommend. Hitec is sold only by Multiplex but I will be able to order directly from their website.

Looks like the HS785HB is my best way to go for the Moonbeam. If it works for you, then it will be fine for me.

Thank you again, they're a little cheaper than Futaba.

Ian

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Author Topic: Large Scale Sail Winches (Read 38321 times)

Tom Eccles

ooby

billekens

billekens

billekens