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Author Topic: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.  (Read 42614 times)

marksaab

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2007, 01:39:53 PM »

Hi Colin and Orby!
Been following your build for sometime.  My build is pretty much at the same stage, just finished the veneer...quite enjoying the build so far but as its my first ever I'm learning as I go!

To get the keel dead straight I used small right angle blocks screwed onto a thick ply board then clamped the keel down with steel plates...bit overboard but worked very well.

Agree about lack of info and poor fit of parts, had to use lot of filler on the bow which looked terrible originally, planking was quite quick I just used straight planks and sanded the ends where needed, the veneer at the stern just needed light steaming, I have used "super glue" for most of the assembly, used evostick for the veneer to give a bit of adjustment time (did try using normal woodglue bust it really warped the thin sheet)

Now really looking forward to sanding a varnishing, I'm using normal clear gloss varnish on the top deck....I reckon 8-9 coats sanding down between should be OK, bottom hull will be sanding sealer then enamel paint, I'm building it for static display.

Colin you are right about no info on the drivers area...so I'm using the spare planking and "boxing" around the drivers seat so you cant see the inside hull.

I have attached a few pics showing planked hull and my method of holding things together...push pins and elastic bands are OK, the small holes fill easily after, I applied the glue after assembly and let it run into the joints.

My recently single again status lets me work on it most nights...too long sometimes...isn't TV boring at 2.00 AM!!!

Will post more soon, actually I think I will start own thread as I don't want to hijack yours Orby!

Great thread BTW Orby, hope you had a good Xmas!

Regards

Mark

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Colin H

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2007, 10:22:27 PM »

Hi mark,

Yes I have been thinking of making my own cockpit, it might just make life a liitle easier as I could tailor the cockpit and rear part of the large hole to fit. This would be better for me as mine is intended to being a runner fast I hope.

Look forward to your thread.

Yours Colin H.
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orby1

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #152 on: January 11, 2007, 02:05:52 PM »

Long time no see, everyone!!
Crikey I've not been doing much to the SloMo in a long time.  I have taken it in to work on nightshifts to sit and sand down when it's quiet, but I have to admit the size of the job facing me and sheer amount of bumpy rotten epoxy I have to clear up is putting me off.  Sometimes it's easier to just pick up a book and read, you know? :-\
Still, I've been having a good go at it today (and it's really brilliant to see a couple more people building the same model - if you get in front of me I can ask you for help!!), and things are looking..... Well, not 'good' exactly, but 'ok'.  I've been getting the wood nice and shiny and smooth with a golden mahogany shining through, but it's covered in little dings and hollows that I can't sand out.  Here. take a look:




This shows the sort of finish I've got - it looks like a smooth bit of aluminium that someone's taken a pointy little toffee hammer to and hammered little hollows all over.  I'm so disappointed I can't tell you.  It's seeing it like this after so much effort that saps my enthusiasm for it.  And it makes it even harder to make yourself work on it when you're sanding down with something that feels about as abrasive as a cotton duster and after half an hour it looks like nothing's happened!  Mate, you just lose the will to live, I'm telling you.





And look at the bottom of the hull - this is how it looks after a good sanding:



Talk about a mess.  I'm resigned to the fact that it won't ever be smooth and all I can hope to do is sort of iron out the worst of the bumps.  If I sand too hard it goes through to the wood, as I've already done once or twice on the top, and I've even gone through a layer of ply in places as you can see here. :o

So, I keep sanding!

To ColinH and Marksaab, I can't tell you a lot about the cockpit, I haven't done it yet and was just intending to do as Mark mentioned, just boxing off the sides with planking wood and putting the seat in. Like you Colin this is only my 3rd model and I struggled with the poor instructions.
That idea with the pins and rubber bands looks useful - nice one!  I think if I did this again, I'd put a few planks on the top first to keep the keel straight and then get all the bottom on while there was still access from the top like that Masterripp fella a few posts back - that would be 100 times easier than the way we have done it.
Keep at it fellas, and Mark I'll be looking out for your thread. I'll try to stick at my model, I just have so much sanding to do and it's so BORING!!!! ;D  Hopefully one day I'll have a finished model to show you (I'm already a year into this model, and have no idea how much longer I'll need!).
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Peterm

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2007, 02:13:27 PM »

Orby1,   I had the same sort of problem when scratch buillding a crabber.   The best way of filling in the little pitted bits is to use P38 car filler available from Halfords.   It dries hard, can be sanded, and takes the paint easily.   hth,  Pete M
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Colin H

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #154 on: January 11, 2007, 04:23:59 PM »

Hi Orby1,

Good to have you back.

Just a thought, looking at the bottom of the boat would it not be easier to remove the sheet ply and cut fresh from some lite ply sheet.

I know you cannot do this on the veneered uppper section but just to get rid of some of the boring sanding might ease the load.

One thing for sure after your problems I certainly will not be using epoxy.
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kayem

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2007, 04:37:35 PM »


Bad luck indeed. Best way I've found of removing all traces of a disaster like that, is by scraping with an old fashioned razor blade, the heavy duty ones sold for small planes and balsa strippers are best, and Westbourne sell them, doubtless other model shops too. Hold the blade at an angle of about 60 degrees to the surface and scrape towards you, only trying to remove a thin shaving at a time, and the epoxy must be fully cured. Make some kind of holder if the blade is double edged, otherwise you'll spoil the model by bleeding all over it.You can get a pretty good finish like this with practice, but whatever you do, don't go through to the wood. Then you can finish lightly with 600 wet & dry. After that, try applying a second coat of epoxy, and better luck next time. I don't like to wet & dry too much on a model at this stage of completion, some water always seems to get inside the model somewhere to find and swell exposed wood. Let us know how you get on.

Forgive me for repeating this advice, but I hate to see a modeller suffer, and I really think you're going about this the wrong way. Take a tip from a professional model maker, scraping is a much better way than endless sanding of correcting a disaster like this. I'd still use heavy duty razor blades rather than glass though, it's much more controllable as well as being safer.
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boatmadman

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2007, 09:00:10 PM »

Hi,

If all your sanding is getting down to the wood in places, it may be worth while putting another layer of epoxy on it. I know this sounds daft, but it means that the dings and hollows get a fill of epoxy, and then you can sand back the good areas to the level of the epoxy in the dings.

Does this make sense?

I had a similar problem with varnish on my riva, I got around it with several coats of varnish and sanding. here is a pic of the results

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anmo

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #157 on: January 12, 2007, 09:12:33 AM »

I'd say madboatman is right, you're never going to recover from this disaster without filling the low spots, you can't achieve a smooth surface just by sanding, you have to alternately fill and sand. I think I'd have given up altogether some time ago, but how about sanding with a much coarser grade of paper than you seem to be using at the moment, and then adding a new layer of wood over the top of that? It's much easier to plank on top of planking than to plank over formers, and you'd only need to use a thin veneer.
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orby1

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #158 on: January 12, 2007, 11:30:50 AM »

Blimey! So much advice!
I had a good afternoon yesterday and actually made some headway.  I did loads of sanding (Anmo I started with quite rough paper!) and have put a coat of epoxy on the part of the bottom of the hull which was still bare wood (it worked perfectly, adding to the mystery of why the upper hull went so wrong), and also on top of the bumpy stuff, intending, as has been advised here to make it easier to sand (or maybe scrape) flat.  I'm not hoping to get it all perfect, but it will be ok when I've done.
As for the advice that scraping would be better, yes I know! I did a lot of scraping on the top, but went thought the veneer in a couple of spots, as it's such an 'aggressive' method. I feel safer sanding - starting off with very rough paper and gradually getting smoother.  Actually I did scrape the bottom of the bow, that really bumpy bit. The photo I took was after scarping and sanding down to about 600 grit (I think)
Isn't P38 opaque? despite driving a shabby 1967 beetle around for 6 years I never used it. If I was going to fill the little dings on the upper body I'd need something as transparent as the epoxy.

I'm really grateful for everyone's advice, by the way - thank you to you all.

The plan now is to bung another coat of epoxy on the bottom, get it smooth, then use layers of varnish.  I could carry on with layers of epoxy but I may lose the will to live!!! ;D  But then to be honest, I think can carry on with actually building the model.  The tail fin needs sorting, etc, the cockpit, engine cover etc...

Does anyone know how the varnish will take to going on top of epoxy?  Should I be ok?  Or should I grit my teeth and carry on with epoxy?
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kayem

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #159 on: January 12, 2007, 11:56:20 AM »

Just trying to help, but a further thought, are you using sanding blocks? That pic of the dimples in the mahogany veneer suggests you might not be, and at that stage you should be using something like #240 wet & dry, certainly nothing finer, and don't rub too hard or you'll go through at the edges. You're wasting your time using anything finer until you've done the bulk of the filling/rubbing down work. Make up small shaped sanding blocks from balsa to suit the job, you can work much more delicately with them, and never, ever, ever use paper just held in your fingers. That's the fastest way to ruin most rubbing-down jobs, it's known in some trades as 'finger-f*cking'.
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bogstandard

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #160 on: January 12, 2007, 05:22:31 PM »

Has anyone tried this product, it looks very promising for fairly flat surfaces

http://www.clarke-coatings.co.uk/mainframe.html

Also don't aeromodellers use a stretch over latex sheet to get fantastic finishes on epoxy coated wings, that is they apply the epoxy coat then while still wet they stretch a rubberised sheet over it until it is cured, supposedly this levels it out and gives a high gloss finish when the latex is stripped off.
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orby1

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #161 on: January 13, 2007, 08:29:41 AM »

Hiya, I don't know about the product aeromodellers use. The last time stretch latex products started coming through the post it ended up with severe friction burns, an accident with a marrow, a trip to casualty and a near divorce... ;D

As for sanding blocks - yes of course I use one.  I have a 'standard' cork one, and a smaller one made from some sort of rubber which has a bit more 'give' then the cork and I guess it more gentle.  It came with the micromesh.  I've never sanded anything with just my fingers. 
Kayem, the dimples on the fine mahogany are just from where the epoxy seemed to repel against the wood and just made hollows where it wouldn't sit. As I sanded back the rest of the epoxy nice and smooth, these are just the holes left behind.

Last night I had a good look at the epoxy I put on the other day, and it has gone on really well flattening out quite a bit of the nasty bumpy stuff underneath, sort of sitting in the hole and filling them in.  I'm quite pleased with it.  I'm going to give it a little sanding and flatting back then put another coat on.  Seeing how well it has worked there made me think it might be worth putting a coat on the top to fill in the little holes left there on the mahogany (but I still don't know if I could bare it! :D)  I'll reserve judgement and a decision until I see the finished result of the bottom of the hull. However I'm guessing that a second coat will go on a LOT smoother and will therefore require less sanding anyway.  Maybe..... ;D
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BobF

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #162 on: January 13, 2007, 01:53:07 PM »

Hi orby1 and all,

I also use several other items as sanding blocks. Foam rubber kneeling pads cut down into various size pieces work well. I either use double sided tape to stick the paper or just fold it up the sides as with normal rubbing blocks. I also use polystyrene foam. Both these items are better at following curves withought sanding off a hard edge.

One other suggestion, which I hesitate to recommend, but it can work. (IT REALLY DEPENDS HOW BRAVE YOU ARE.) If you heat the surface with a hot air blower, you may be able to remove the complete layer and start again. (BET YOU DON'T TRY THIS METHOD THOUGH)

On a completely different subject, I also use sections of the above mentioned foam rubber for boat stands. I cut out a section that fits the underside of the hull where it will contact the varnish finish. I then sandwhich them between two light ply pieces which are glued to the base of the boat stand with about a quarter inch protruding for the hull to rest on. I really must learn how to post pictures. A photo saves a thousand words.

Bob
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orby1

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #163 on: January 27, 2007, 03:12:13 AM »

It's 2:45am, and I'm sat here at work sanding a little, thinking a little...
I was thinking about how quite a few people have said things like how they'd have given up on this model if it had been theirs, and I thought how I didn't really think it was so bad - then I looked back over the thread, and I realised that there was hardly any stage of building this thing where I knew what the heck I was doing and didn't make a mistake somewhere, or where something didn't go wrong!   ;D  You've got to laugh....   
I've been sat out on my balcony in the snow to escape poisoning myself, I've had to employ tins of pasta sauce to help glue the bottom on because I don't have the right tools, I discovered after months of building and planking that the keel was bent, I put the veneer on the sides the wrong way round, I put the veneer on the top wrong and put water on it which swelled it and sent it all wonky, I painted the red stripe on and the masking tape reacted to the resin.....  Shall I go on....?
I don't care, to be honest I find it quite funny! I build models like this because I enjoy the process, the actual building of it, I don't do it for what i get out of it at the end.  The longer this goes on and the more I learn, the more laughs us lot on here have along the way, then the better.
I've just sanded down the bottom of the boat using wet and dry, going gradually down to 600 grit, and I'll leave it at that, it's fine.  I put two thick coats on with no sanding in between to see what would happen, and it's gone on fine, sanding back very nicely. ;)  Even that crappy horrible bit at the bow is very smooth now - just a few little bumps and ripples.  I'll post a picture when I can.

Now I'm sanding resin that has actually gone on properly, at last I see what a good method it is.  It sands down so quickly and easily I'm tempted to go all over the top side of the boat with it again.  Putting it on top of already sanded resin should be fine as it will have nothing to react badly with, it should go on nice and smooth and sand down nice and easy like the bottom did tonight.  Another reason for this is that the top's only had one coat, which I have sanded very thin in places, and I want the boat to be safe on the water, able to take the odd knock.
More when I have anything to tell you.
 ;)
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boatmadman

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #164 on: January 27, 2007, 05:00:06 PM »

Orby1,

You have the sense of humour that is vital to this hobby! It took me a while to develop it, I used to launch various troublesome boat bits across the garage which usually meant starting again from scratch, now I just laugh (or cry!) open a beer and get on with it!

Keep up the good work

Ian

PS, dont tell every one about a job that allows hobby work on nights - I have one like that too, trouble is - everyone will want one!  ;D
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orby1

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #165 on: January 27, 2007, 07:53:27 PM »

Thanks Ian! ;) I have got to the 'throwing things about' stage occasionally, but when I get to that point it just means I need to take a break from it and I'm not enjoying it anymore - I just put it back in the cupboard for a few weeks (that's why I'm over a year into this build!) and start again when I get the itch to mess with it again.


As for what I wrote last night...
I've just sanded down the bottom of the boat using 600 grit, and I'll leave it at that, it's fine.  Even that crappy horrible bit at the bow is very smooth now - just a few little bumps and ripples. 
I'm revising this quote - my suite at work is quite dark and in the half-light of 2:30 am last night I couldn't see that well.  When I got the boat home and looked at her in the cold light of day I saw a few more little ripples and that I need to go quite a bit finer with the wet&dry if I want the resin shiny again.  At the moment it looks a bit matt where I'd been sanding with 600 grit.
It does look about 100 times better than it did, though - comparing the bottom triangle of ply under the bow (that photo a few posts above), it was a complete mess before, and now you have to actually hold it up to the light to see a few ripples of uneven resin.  Things are looking up!! ;)
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boatmadman

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #166 on: January 27, 2007, 11:17:56 PM »

you wear a SUIT on nights??????????? ;D
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boatmadman

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #167 on: February 03, 2007, 04:21:22 PM »

I have caught the epoxy pox! I put first coat on my drifter hull and its pooled and rippled like a severe case of cellulite! Just goes to show, it doesnt care whose boat it attacks!

Ian
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David L

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #168 on: February 17, 2007, 02:09:05 PM »

Hi Orby 1 i have read with interest your report on the build up of Slo Mo Shun as i have just purchased one myself, but i do not get any of the photos posted wich is a shame as i need all the help i can get .I am a relative newcomer to model boat building and thought i would try something in wood but it seems i may have bitten off more than i can chew,any help you can give whith photos would be greatly appreciated.
                    Regards
                    David L
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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #169 on: February 17, 2007, 03:10:34 PM »

Hi Orby

You have great perseverance

My mate has done lots of epoxy and it comes up good, but he does several coats. Sands and coats again.
What he does do is apply it with old credit cards, or those very thick plasticy/waxy business cards. This way he fills the hollows before sanding back again.

There is another thread on here on a turtle back build. The finish is great and he says how he did it.
Check it out. it sounds simple
I quote
...The finish was achieved by rubbing down the planking with firstly 80 grit Dry, then 120 grit dry and then 180 grit dry.  Then 3 coats of epoxy resin was applied and allowed to harden for 7 days each coat. Each coat was rubbed down dry with 180 grit.  The last coat was rubbed with 400 dry.  Then 2 coats of automotive 2 pack clear were applied and that's it.  The gloss is straight from the gun & has not been polished at all.   It is very important to allow the epoxy resin to harden fully and it's easy to do in Australia when the temperatures are so high.   I'm also in the fortunate position of having access to 2 pack automotive paints which do not deteriorate or lose their gloss like the Acrylics.
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marksaab

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #170 on: February 19, 2007, 05:47:31 PM »

Hi All.

David L, you can see pics if you register, its very simple to do just follow the link at the top of the page.

My own Slo-Mo build is going in fits and starts, but I have a deadline of 2 weeks to finish it now!

Have a look at my thread "Another Slo-Mo-Shun" I used photobucket for my picture upload so they will show even if you don't register.

Everyone here has loads of really good advice so its worth picking a few brains BEFORE you start building.

Orby is a top man and very patient.. ;)   Learn from him....may the force be with etc etc!! ;D

Good luck. its a great build subject.

Mark
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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #171 on: February 20, 2007, 08:21:24 PM »

I have caught the epoxy pox! I put first coat on my drifter hull and its pooled and rippled like a severe case of cellulite! Just goes to show, it doesnt care whose boat it attacks!

Ian

It happened with me on a 1970s Freya 36 I am do up. First coat went on fine. Left it for a week, rubbed it down with wet and dry. Applied 2nd coat and it rippled and pooled.
The only thing I can put it down to is that it was a very damp day and I think that the boat may still have been slightly damp.

Richard ;)
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boatmadman

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #172 on: February 20, 2007, 08:25:17 PM »

I have found out that warming the hull and epoxy to over 20deg c sorted my problem out. It went on fine.

Ian
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orby1

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #173 on: April 22, 2007, 06:06:31 PM »

Hi everyone,
This is just a quickie to say I'm still alive and well!  I FINALLY moved house in mid February after about 18 months' messing about, and now we're in I have an absolute mountain of work to do. An entire garden (untouched for years) needed chopping down so we can start again, the house needs new bathroom, new kitchen, decorating entirely, new carpets all way through, damp in the lounge sorting, a flat roof to be re-done, etc etc.....!  Blimey we really have our work cut out.
Suffice it to say, this is why I haven't been on here for months!  Sadly the Slo Mo has been put on the back boiler in favour of other boring crap. Believe me even the thought of sorting out bumpy epoxy appeals more than some of the jobs I have coming up over the next few months, but they need doing more.

Anyway, I'll be back. This is just a temporary lull!
All the best, Julian. ;)
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marksaab

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Re: Billings Slo Mo Shun build-up.
« Reply #174 on: May 03, 2007, 06:10:30 PM »

Hi Julian
Nice to hear from you mate!  Good to hear your move went ok in the end...sounds like you have the list of things I did on my old place...good excuse to buy all those new power tools though...if you need advice on bathrooms, kitchens etc let me know! :)

My Slo-mo was on hold...now finally onto the last knockings...paintwork done...sprayed the red after spendin a long time masking up etc, next project will not involve painting, I hate it!!

I now have a pile of plastic kits to make...a variety of MTB's, MASB's and an E boat.....after building I'm arranging a mock battle after in my bathtub...sure it will all end in tears :D

Well good luck with the DIY....only bit of free advice I can really offer is "one room at a time"!!.

Regards

Mark
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