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Author Topic: the BIG BANG  (Read 10214 times)

portside II

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2008, 08:37:44 pm »

Now that looks more like a black ole not a hole {-)
daz
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sheerline

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2008, 09:18:19 pm »

Are there different sizes of black hole? If so, pressumably you could fill an infintesimally (spelling police needed here) small one easier than one the size of a collapsed star. A collapsed star is apparently capable of swallowing worlds so would one the size of an atom be capable of swallowing say... a Morris minor or even a Ford Cortina. I know little of such things and the mind bending thought required to understand and visulise such abstracts is apparently the realm of the Boffins at CERN. Anyone got an e-mail address so we could find out... could be you could even fit a house in one.......... or maybe Westminster!!   
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portside II

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2008, 09:25:02 pm »

Hmm thats a thought ,right join the que  O0
daz
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andyn

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2008, 09:30:41 pm »

Supposedly there is 'black hole' inside every atom, as 99.999999999999 etc percent of an atom is nothing at all.

If current thoeries are correct, the atom is encapsulated in a shell, and contains 'black hole' within it, cracking this shell by firing two atoms at each other at 4 quadzillion miles an hour could potentially release said 'black hole', which would grow in size as it encapsulated stuff, until it turns everything inside out. Or whatever it does.

Nevertheless, it is an area of science where we just have to shrug our shoulders and say "ermm... God probably did it..."

Andy O0 (who is currently doing atomic theory at school as part of A Level)
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The long Build

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2008, 10:08:48 pm »

So we can blame you if the  :D hits the fan.. O0
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Wetwater

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2008, 10:46:40 pm »

   Cartoon in the Daily Express today suggested firing Brown and Darling at each other.  O0
   Can I press the button.  :)
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Garabaldy

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2008, 12:14:44 am »

I know its hard to see past the fundamentals of this science experiment but i have been told on good authority that alot of extremely usefull technologies have been developed in this facility, off the back of they're main goals.   The one which springs to mind is some kind of scan you get at hospital.  Its all too easy to say this is a waste of money but alot of good things.

as a foot note i did hear this on the news this evening and the same guy tried to say it was this group who came up with the internet and im finding that hard to sink in..........
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dreadnought72

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2008, 01:09:26 am »

Are there different sizes of black hole?

Yes - it looks like there are two kinds. Big ones living in the hearts of galaxies massing millions of solar masses. Small ones exist as the result of supernovae and are of "just a few" solar masses. The only ones smaller than that would have been created in the Big Bang, and they don't exist anymore. You see, Steven Hawkins (clever chap) realised that all black holes radiate energy over time. Small ones (bigger surface area to volume ratio) radiate (evaporate) quickest. The ones that the LHC might create are TINY. Smaller than subatomic. And therefore they would radiate themselves away in fractions of a second. Therefore - there's no risk of a big planetary slurp up.

If so, pressumably you could fill an infintesimally (spelling police needed here) small one easier than one the size of a collapsed star. A collapsed star is apparently capable of swallowing worlds so would one the size of an atom be capable of swallowing say... a Morris minor or even a Ford Cortina.

Well, no. "Fill" is not the right word. Physics goes bad once inside the event horizon. A "small" black hole could gain as much mass as it fancied, if it existed long enough. Gaining mass would just make it a little bigger - and therefore it would last longer.

But you have to bear in mind that now and again cosmic rays hit the atmosphere with more energy than the LHC could ever generate particle collisions - and the Earth has been around for 4+ billion years...so there's no chance of anything dangerous occurring.

Andy
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tony23

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2008, 01:16:02 am »


Dear All,

Just to get this into perspective, the CERN cost £3B, BUT, the 2012 Olympics are going to cost the UK £10B!!! (+). CERN was funded Internationally, 2012 Olympics by all us mugs here in GB! >>:-( :embarrassed:



Not quite right there Bernard only the mugs in LONDON paying for the Olympics my rates have increased £38 extra to pay for it ( I wonder when it's finished in 2012 they remember to stop taking it)
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tigertiger

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2008, 01:52:14 am »

... also bit worrying Black hole 1 in 55  million , I believe winning the lottery 1 in 75 million !!

TYou have your dreams Sunshine, and I'll have mine  ;) :) O0
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White Ensign

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2008, 07:41:46 am »

Can`t understand the bloody hype the newspapers are doing all around Black holes.... be cause yesterday they just switched on the bloody machine! It was just ignition, but don`t get the engine started!

So watch this space in a few weeks... for any black holes coming up.... O0
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Proteus

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2008, 07:47:10 am »

There are an awful lot of Luddite's about these days General Ludd would be prouder of them. weren't there scare stories about all the air would be sucked out of your lungs if trains went over 5mph.. :(


Proteus
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White Ensign

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2008, 07:59:25 am »

... wouldn`t it be nice if they would take that money and make the world now safer? In example to make up the British railways, German motorways or whatever.... or feed some hungry, build new schools, Kindergarten, make up ed...whatever- hundreds of ideas to make the world NOW better instead of having a new theory how this world HERE AND NOW might have been created Millions of years ago.

Sorry, but it really feds me up if I see that waste of money and look around in my hometown where 3 out of 5 playgrounds had been closed for safety reasons, while a child some towns away died by hunger and mistreatment, my son is missing lessons in school as they don`t have enough teachers...

That all makes me really sad....
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portside II

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2008, 09:17:11 am »

Its alright complaining about how this money is being wasted on this big ring thing ,and it could be better spent on something usefull like building schools and feeding the millions starving around the world ,but why pour money into certain Charity's when at the end of the day for every £1 donated there would probably be only 2p left for the receiver who it was intended for originally,the rest gets swallowed up in admin .
A friend of mine told me how he would never give any donations to a certain charity after an aunt passed away and left her entire estate to that charity an 8 figure sum ,they had a small building before and he was invited to an opening to see how they had invested his aunts money ,on his arrival he saw a brand new building full of admin offices and in the reserved management carpark there were several gleaming merc's ,which tuned out to belong to the managers . Oh and as for the building  which this charity specialised in (looking after sick animals) that had been relocated to another branch as the noise and smell might upset the office staff.

And whilst i an at it ,i remember not that long ago there was a story in the news that we had just made our last payment America for their funding during the war ,some colossal amount which we had been paying over the years £??billions .
Two questions.
where did this money come from ?
What are the UK government doing with it now,
i mean if i make the final payment on my mortgage my income don't go down just cos i don't have it to pay anymore .

thats my bit like it or not .
daz
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Philipsparker

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2008, 09:49:44 am »

To everyone complaining about the waste of money -

The World Wide Web came out of CERN. Yes, that thing you are now using to complain about it.

Some of us are enjoying the irony of this.

Phil
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wideawake

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2008, 10:19:48 am »

To everyone complaining about the waste of money -

The World Wide Web came out of CERN. Yes, that thing you are now using to complain about it.

Some of us are enjoying the irony of this.

Phil


Tim Berners Lee is God   :)

Guy
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polaris

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2008, 10:28:59 am »


SpamCanMan, don't forget they have raided the Lottery so this affects 'everybody' and all good causes that the Lottery is supposed to be about - personally I don't consider these 'games' a good cause in any way shape or form. Don't forget they are holding quite a few venues across the country... not everything is going to be in London.

Portside, as usual the media try and pick up on the downside of everything... no news like bad news even when little to none exists! They are so tied up with the credit situation that CERN will grab their attention for about as much time as it takes for two atoms to collide... inevitably this will result in even more reporting inaccuracy than normal! As I said in my last posting to this Topic, CERN is internationally funded, BUT, 2012 is solely GB funded. The answer to your question is simple: it came from us, and it will go anywhere they see fit! - except the NHS, and national infrastructure it seems!!!

Regards, Bernard
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polobeer

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2008, 10:36:12 am »

Sorry folks, but what tangible benefits will be derived from this experiment? The Internet IS a tangible outcome from the same research organisation (not all positive, however), but how will "proving" the big bang theory benefit us? Apart from anything else it is still conjecture (even if the experiment succeeds); it is akin to the endless hypotheses about Stone Henge and other contemporaneous stone monuments. No one can actually prove with total certainty why our ancestors built these enigmatic features. I studied archaeology at university and I for one am not convinced by all the supposition on this controversial subject. Only our ancestors knew why they felt compelled to erect these enduring landmarks. Likewise, the big bang theory is precisely that, a theory. There are some things humans should leave well alone, and specifically Nature. I'm sure you have all come across the expression, "Whistling for the wind"?

Simon  ???
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dreadnought72

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2008, 11:30:14 am »

Sorry folks, but what tangible benefits will be derived from this experiment?

Materials technology: future fusion reactors are going to be battered by high-speed protons and neutrons throughout their working lives. What better place to test new alloys than in a particle accelerator?

Control of plasma under high pressures and speeds: good for fusion studies, cleaning up fission waste, and potential fusion/plasma rocketry.

The Grid being used to process the data is the web on steroids: we could all gain from that.

And then there's the less tangible benefits - since people ever wondered what was over that hill next to the Rift Valley, humanity has explored. This is exploration of the most fundamental kind, back to the first fraction of a second of creation. I think that's pretty fantastic at the price. Who knows what other benefits might arise from the science done here for the next ten/twenty years?

Imagine getting an understanding of the Higgs Boson - control of mass? Gravity? I dunno - but it points to a future that I think I'd like to see.  O0

Andy, another Archaeological graduate.
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polobeer

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2008, 12:13:35 pm »

I can only reiterate my previous observation; some things are best left alone. You only have to read the short stories of Montague Rhodes James to see what I mean. He was the Provost of King's College Cambridge and Eton during the early part of the last century; he was a professor of archaeology and a skilled writer of antiquarian ghost stories. His basic underlying message to us as readers was to leave well alone things that we can never understand or we will suffer the consequences. One of his classic stories was called: "A Warning to the Curious". We have tampered with Nature far too often and now we are paying the price; haven't you had the worst Summer on record in the UK? The jet stream as you know is positioned much further south this year due to the effects of La Niña and global warming. Just look at the alarming speed at which the glaciers and ice sheets are vanishing all thanks to "advances" in technology. Nuclear power is not the answer either; people have short term memories when it comes to remembering Chernobyl and its continuing destructive fall out; much of the Welsh landscape is still radioactive from this catastrophic explosion in 1986.

Simon  ???
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sheerline

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2008, 01:03:38 pm »

Man will always be curious about everything and will always be trying to 'look over the hill' as it were. In the great scheme of things, we have only been here 'in the blink of an eye' so to speak as has this planet of ours. It may well be that we will eventually be masters of our own destruction and wipe out everything. If this is the eventual conclusion of our tinkerings and this planet is left a smouldering ball of lifeless dust.....will it make the slightest bit of difference? The whole of infinate space is out there and one more dusty lifeless ball won't matter a jot as space will continue just as it has done before this planet was created.
 Naturally, as a sentient living being, I want to survive and the natural instinct of all of us is to go on doing so and re-create ourselves, but we only feel this way because we are alive here and now. Remember what it was like before you were conceived... well thats exactly what it will be like when you cease to exist and it's exactly what it's like for all those who have not yet been conceived. As I said, we only concern ourselves with all of this because we are here and all the time we are living and breathing humans....we will be looking over that hill, in this we are unstoppable.
Having said all of that, I would rather be master of my own destruction and not have someone elses wild ideas do it for me. In this 'elf n safety' concious environment in which we live there is at the forefront the concern that our actions should not affect our fellow mans well being. How is this thinking squared with organisations of which we as individuals are detached, carrying out possible life threatening tests on devices and apparatus which could possibly wipe out our very existence?
Just thinking on chaps.

   


 
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polobeer

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2008, 02:21:41 pm »

That's one side of the coin; viewing the World from one's own perspective is normal for most. However, what about the people who have no say in their destiny and day to day lives? I am thinking about people in disadvantaged countries (such as some high profile Asian countries with dictatorships, one of which is in the news right now); we in democratic western countries have it easy by comparison to these other less fortunate states. It's easy for us to think like you suggest above; I would suggest that many people in this country have led relatively "pain" free lives (vis a vis the above Asian countries) and therefore perhaps have this, "well I've had a good innings" attitude in the face of possible calamity. However, if the unthinkable was to happen what about the people mentioned above who've never had a chance to realise their potential or live fulfilling lives? How do you explain to them the need of certain humans to further the realms of science, just because it hasn't been achieved yet, or that it might better "our" lives somehow? Instead of speeding up we need to slow down and live with what we have more. In a way it is pointless me continuing this debate because of its subjectivity and its endless potential for disagreement. All I can say is that is often the actions of the very few that have greatest impact on the many, and I mean this in the negative sense; history seems to teach us nothing, and yet it contains the most salient messages that we should be heeding. One is never the only being on this planet, and Nature is not fair, but we should think about our actions in a more objective fashion in the quest to help others less fortunate than ourselves. Shedding light on the big bang is about as helpful in this respect as putting rice into a petrol tank.

Simon   :(
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Philipsparker

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2008, 06:59:34 pm »

"I can only reiterate my previous observation; some things are best left alone"

Like fire ? And travelling faster than 10mph ? And knowing the Earth is round ? And knowing it isn't at the centre of the universe ?

Who decides at what point we are allowed to ask no more questions ? Anyway, at least this is (currently) a peacefull use for the money. There are plenty of politicians that think a good war would be a better use for it. Cruise missiles cost how much per go ?

Phil
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polaris

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2008, 07:09:59 pm »


Dear All,

Maybe some said research into Penicillin was over-the-hill, and indeed many such and other innovations to the benefit of mankind have been available only by advancing science. Granted there has been messing about with nature with GM crops and gene modification, and I do not like this very much, however, CERN is interesting, has already supplied a couple of interesting answers to nuclear power, and has supplied some interesting possibilities for medical science... ok, the latter to be proved, but I am sure that things will be forthcoming. Give the thing a chance to prove itself before damning it! Don't forget they said that the internal combustion engine wouldn't catch on! - likewise the car... and probably the wheel before that! - oh, and they said there would probably be little use for the telephone once upon a time! - and that there would probably be only a very small market for personal computers! - nothing changes.........

Regards, Bernard
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tobyker

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Re: the BIG BANG
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2008, 08:13:42 pm »

OK, so CERN have got a bigger shed than the rest of us. They do their thing, we do ours.
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