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Author Topic: SMOKEY JOE  (Read 9648 times)

Bunkerbarge

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2008, 09:40:13 PM »

One advantage of going along to a club is there is always someone who can help you out. So built unit, kit, or list of parts it shouldn't really be a problem. Most clubs will help anyone, not just members.

As to sounds and smoke. Maybe the 'unrealistic' effects can be thought of as an enhancement for the admiring public rather than the afficionados. In an expert only situation they can be turned off. These effects, like water viscosity, do not scale so the exageration is perhaps needed to 'fool' the human senses. Lets not forget how much we admire a nicely prepared real wood finish on a 1/24 th model which if scaled up actually has the grain texture of a straw bale.

Excellent point Bee
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samuel15g

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2008, 11:07:09 PM »

Hello All

Oh dear not only have I opened a can of worms regards posting pictures of the steam unit but we have some interesting comments being bounced around regards sound.

My way of thinking is that in the long run sound, steam and accurate scale representations in models are all a matter of personal preference.
A couple of years ago we took a trip on the "Gondola" based in the Lakes and even with its massive steam engine pushing her along at a reasonable rate of knots, all we could hear was a gentle whisper and the lapping of waves. If built in model form I'm sure most members of the public would like to hear a steady chug and see billowing steam.

Attached is a photo of my Yacht Tender - this has a false boiler and steam engine and is actually electric powered - sadly the "Smokey Joe" won't fit into it but I've had many people saying "Do you know, that boat would look a whole lot better with smoke pouring out of the chimney!" -- to that end I light a couple of incense sticks pop them down the funnel and these give a steady, just discernable swirl of blue smoke. The tender also has a sound unit -- a cheapo, locomotive sound unit kit from Maplins with the high speed loco sound adjusted down to a steady chuff.
This unit is housed in the cabin at the back and can just be heard as the boat passes close to shore. This unit isn't connected to engine speed or anything complicated and chugs nicely on a 9V battery. I hate to say this but anyone with basic soldering skills can rattle one of these off with no problem, once you get your head around the instruction leaflet. They are a nice little project but the speaker supplied is a bit iffy so you need a bigger one.

As with Bunkerbarges example of the pusher tug, I have a similar example in my 50 year old model of Harold Underhills "Barbara" , the motor and propshaft rattle ond bang so much it sounds just like diesel

To be honest I love seeing a nicely built and weathered model that is as close as possible to the real thing but in miniature , I agree with Bee in that the viewing public like to imagine something going on below decks hence excessive steam/ smoke and sound.

Anyway back to "Smokey Joe" -- I've heard tell that if you mixed food colouring with the water in the JJC unit, the water particles would take on that colour (brown dye- brown smoke) I have nothing to loose regards trying this in my "Smokey Joe" but the ceramic disc in the nebuliser module may become clogged and require regular cleaning or replacement -- its possible that the failure of the ceramic disc in the JJC unit caused the unit to stop working, that's just my guess.
I've started experimenting by adding Antifeeze to the water as its possible that the glycol in the antifreeze will cause the water mist to hold together longer and perhaps generate more volume.

Kind regards-- for the time being!
Terry H

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Proteus

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2008, 11:49:06 PM »

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tigertiger

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2008, 01:39:22 AM »


I believe from various comments within this and other threads that there are still people willing to pay for the privilege of obtaining a ready built unit...


I honestly believe that the type of person who wants to tinker and build their own, would be unlikely to buy one.

It is unfortunate that somebody has been made redundant. However, I doubt if there is a living to be made from the manufacture of smoke units. To do this I think you would need to sell over 100 units per month. People producing their own units is not going to deprive anybody of their livelihood.

I also believe that there are other smoke units under development from other makers.

Anybody should be free to manufacture and trade within the law. The same goes for sharing ideas and methods.
This should be achievable without being attacked or harassed on open forum.
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Philipsparker

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2008, 08:24:43 AM »

When I see a fellow modeler who has lost his job and starts his own business with his redundancy so he does not have to rely on hand outs.It really takes guts and gonads to do this, and we get a KNOW ALL who comes on this forum and suddenly builds an identical unit out of the blue I am sorry to say this but it stinks BIG TIME
I am absolutely GOBSMACKED at a Moderator on here who is Bunkerbarge who has bought one of these units and has openly told everyone on this forum whats inside them SO EVERYONE CAN BUILD THEM.What you so called gentelmen have done is scuppered a new business venture.

I  HOPE YOU ARE PROUD OF YOUSELVES

Stavros

All* he has done is stuff a computer fan on top of a Maplin nebuliser. The later is available in the shops (I have one bought with the same idea in mind) and we all have one of those fans inside our computers. The other thing mentioned in the JJC units is "some electronics". From that description I doubt anyone could reproduce the circuit but it's the most important part of the unit - no control circuit, no "chuff", just a continuous stream of smoke no matter how hard the boat is working. What we have is clever and pretty effective but not as good as the JJC unit (I haven't seen any others).

If we aren't allowed to dabble with the readily available gear and have a go at this, what can we do ? No scratchbuilding hulls 'cos you can buy fibreglass ones ?

Now if the JJC circuit diagram was published, I could see you have a point...

Anyway, most modellers won't want to build this, they will want to buy it so anyone in business still has a ready market.

Phil

*This is not to disparage the original post which is excellent. Like others I've wondered about this - unlike me though, the poster got off his backside and did something about it for which we are all greatful.
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cbr900

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2008, 07:59:15 AM »

I bought one of No Mustang Marks Smokers,
and it operates as it says on the paperwork,
so today I did some experiments with the
system and the changes were really simple
the unit has a nebuliser in the bottom of the
container by moving it's location in the case
you can get different smoke actions which
I found brilliant, so thank you Mark for a neat unit
that does exactly what you said it would and
even more, Marks delivery service was also
second to none, as the unit arrived here in
Australia in quick time and perfect condition
Thank you again Mark and Angy....... O0 O0

Roy

PS
I have attached two pics of the unit working
one as standard, two is with a 42" extension
pipe still works great..........
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samuel15g

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2008, 09:58:26 AM »

Hello All especially Mark

If you continue to get revues as posted by cbr900 then you'll have no concerns regards your venture being Scuppered.

As folks have pointed out on this thread there are are those that want to  experiment a problem for themselves as part of their modelling hobby---just as I did!-- and those that just want to buy an RTR unit.

For those taking the latter route you've got a  good option available

Kind regards
Terry H

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Martin [Admin]

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2008, 01:54:33 PM »

Quote
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12767.0

IT'S Here Martin................

This is the news everyone wants to hear!!!! I am starting production of a cold water vapour smoke generator similar to the old JJC units.

The first unit measures 150mm long, 80mm wide and 90mm high to the top of the fan.
It operates on 24 volt DC so will have to have its own dedicated supply battery but as the unit draws less than 0.75 amps these batteries will not have to be big, (I have got over 2 hours continuous running from 2500mh ni/mh AA size pen cells) These packs only weigh about 600grams.
The fan runs on 6/12 volts and can be run at a constant speed via a switch or can be powered from an ESC (but the fan will not run backwards when you reverse the model)
This unit should fit into any model over 30 inches long and is perfect for an old steam tug!!!!

There will be a smaller unit approx 100mm, 100mm, 90mm high as well and I can also custom build any unit to your size requirements, phone or email for a price.

The water reservoir holds approximately 200ml of water and will run continuously for about an hour before it needs to be refilled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NHV5mSHSXY

These units will retail at 45 or 60 with a dedicated ESC (from Action) and 'Y' lead plus 5.50 postage and packing to the UK, international postage costs please email me for a price. At the moment I can only accept cheques/ postal orders (pounds sterling) as I am just starting out in this venture (credit cards in the near future) I can also accept Paypal.

My email markandangie_9@hotmail.com
Tel. 01633 431010

Any questions feel free to email me, phone me or shout really loud  {-)

Mark.
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Subculture

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2008, 04:46:26 PM »

You could always use a dc/dc converter for upping the voltage-

http://www.powerstream.com/dc-2171.htm

Martin [Admin]

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2008, 08:30:32 AM »


Right, I think that's got this topic back on track.....
Once upon a time...


Late on Wednesday evening, with my wife at Yoga class, I sat down with a blank sheet of paper and put together a
"Heath Robinson " plan for a home made JJC type unit. A couple of hours later I'd come up with something.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2008, 10:53:52 AM »

I've attached a couple of pictures of one of Marks units to not only demonstrate the fact that it produces a good amount of vapour but also to indicate that this was the situation after 40 minutes of continual operation.  I think hat's off to Mark for having the courage to put this together and show us all what can be done with readliy purchased components as well as the fact that he is prepared to produce them for people who do not want to go through the process of assembling one for themselves.

In my demonstration I have used two 12v 7ah batteries but to generate the 24v required to run the nebuliser it would be better to have two 12v AA packs made up specifically for it.  This would obviously save a lot of weight.

I have ordered one of the 12-24v converters as indentified by Subculture and will use that in the circuit when I recieve it to see if I can get down to a single battery.

One thing that will have to be considered with this vapouriser is the fact that, as the fan and the nebuliser are independantly controlled, there is a possibility that the nebuliser can be running with the fan stopped.  When this happens vapour escaped through the fan housing and so you would be supplying considerable quantities of water vapour to the inside of your model.  This would obviously happen if the fan is connected to a 'Y' lead and regulated from the same speed controller as the motor but the nebuliser has a continuous 24v supply.  This could be easily rectified though by the use of a relay in the motor circuit, which is then used to switch the power to the nebuliser so the nebuliser will only operate when the fan is running.

I notice that the 12-24v converter can be purchased at a cheaper rate in bulk so Mark could even consider purchasing a number of them to get the overall cost down and include one with the vapouriser.  I know he is looking into options for making the unit more user friendly and this may be of interest to him. 

I will let you know how the converter works out when I get it and might even go the whole hog and fit a relay to control the nebuliser.
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Proteus

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2008, 11:20:18 AM »

Can I just post a warning about testing this type of unit in your wokshop, they atomise water and through it in the air, filling the room with water vapour so all your nice shinny tools get Rusty, the same goes for running steam plants in workrooms, would you spray a waterpistol all over your tools , this is the same , so test em outside for the sake of your tools,  but I may be wrong.

Proteus
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cbr900

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2008, 01:15:15 PM »

Proteus,

My work shop is 16 metres by 8 metres and the temp
over here when I tested the smoker was 21 degrees c.
 so I don't think it hurt to much this end............... O0 {-)



Roy
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2008, 01:51:45 PM »

Can I just post a warning about testing this type of unit in your wokshop, they atomise water and through it in the air, filling the room with water vapour so all your nice shinny tools get Rusty, the same goes for running steam plants in workrooms, would you spray a waterpistol all over your tools , this is the same , so test em outside for the sake of your tools,  but I may be wrong.

Proteus

Thanks for the warning.  I don't leave the unit running for long but obviously, as with anything else, you should be aware of the dangers of generating water vapour.  As long as your space is well ventilated you won't have an issue.
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Proteus

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2008, 02:25:11 PM »

Proteus,

My work shop is 16 metres by 8 metres and the temp
over here when I tested the smoker was 21 degrees c.
 so I don't think it hurt to much this end............... O0 {-)



Roy


next time (or if) I post I will try to take in to acount all 2246 members


Proteus >:(
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samuel15g

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2008, 03:00:26 PM »

Hello All

Over the past few evenings I've done a few tests using food colouring.

For all you afficinadoes wanting to get black or dark brown smoke effects - don't bother!

The water was dyed a real deep black to try and get a dense change in "steam " colour but after a few runs I noticed that the ceramic disc in the nebuliser module was starting to clog in the corners, this may in time ruin the disc. Neither was the steam colour that great --medium to dark grey and nothing to get exited about.
The disc can be removed and cleaned but do you really want to mess about with it after a relaxing Sunday mornings sailing? -- oh dear I've snapped it and Maplins has just closed ,or, if they are open, they've just sold the last one!

Tests with the addition of anti freeze to the water also made no significant difference to steam volume.

kind regards
terry H
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2008, 03:23:51 PM »

Another significant consideration with doing this is that, as the vapour is cold, it falls on the boat when it is stopped and the colouring will slowly stain your model.
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dreadnought72

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2008, 04:09:29 PM »

The colour you get is a function of the droplet size - at the size of fog/mist droplets, vastly bigger than the wavelength of light, all colours are equally scattered (Mie Scattering) hence it's white to the eye. Smaller particles, like gas molecules which are on a par with the wavelength of light, obey Rayleigh Scattering, and make things like the sky blue.

Coal smoke and diesel particulates are carbon soot - naturally black - rough and irregular, and midway in size.

I suspect the only way to get grey/black smoke is to burn carbon in not-enough oxygen.

Andy
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Reade Models

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2008, 05:35:05 PM »

I suspect the only way to get grey/black smoke is to burn carbon in not-enough oxygen.
Andy

Which I would imagine implies the use of oil burning smoke generators?

Malc


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dreadnought72

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2008, 08:22:31 PM »

Yes, and burning them fuel-rich. Like an old taxi on start-up.

:-)

Andy
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furball

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2008, 09:14:32 PM »

That's what we need - something that burns bits of tyre in old, used engine oil!  {-)

Lance
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barryfoote

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2008, 08:12:30 AM »

That's what we need - something that burns bits of tyre in old, used engine oil!  {-)

Lance

Okay....Give me a day or two and I will come up with a prototype!!!! O0
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2008, 08:26:06 AM »

Obviously the most significant advantage of the vapourising units is that they do not burn oil with a heating element.  I personally do not feel comfortable with a source of heat combined with a source of fuel burning away inside my pride and joy while it is sat in the middle of a boating pond.

Using a nebuliser does not require the same amount of power and does not have anything like the same degree of risk attached.  The one hot oil unit I did try came complete with a heat resistant mat to mount it on inside the boat because the aluminium body actually became too hot to touch.

Whilst the idea of 'White' smoke could be considered as questionable I prefer it to the risks involved with hot oil units.  I have had to accept though that I am never going to see black smoke from a vapouriser.  Let's not forget of course that hot oil units also normally generate white smoke and to consider burning anything that will create black smoke is going to make quite a mess of the heating element and run even higher risks of over heating.  

Still, the resultant smoke generated by the burning boat should look pretty realistic just before it sinks!! ::)
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barryfoote

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2008, 08:28:46 AM »

Okay Bunkerbarge, you have convinced me.....foreget the prototype idea... :D
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: SMOKEY JOE
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2008, 08:50:51 AM »

Okay Bunkerbarge, you have convinced me.....foreget the prototype idea... :D

I think for the sake of furthering our knowledge with these things your offer to evaluate and experiment should prove very interesting.  Make sure you have a video camera ready though, the results have the potential to look really good on You Tube!! {-) {-)
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