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[Bee]

Just as a suggestion, when a kit or plan is built from and there is a build thread on this site, the builder is at liberty to give a star * rating for the quality of intructions and the quality of the plans.
At least that way, any prospective builder of that particular model knows (from the * rating) what to expect.

Yes. And we even have a whole section of this forum "what's in the box" for just this kind of info.

another angle: is the advertising / glossy pictures encouraging people to buy kits that are not well enough supported to match the buyers experience? Is there an equivalent of the Keilcraft and Veron balsa kits to start on or would they look too mundane next to instant grp hulls to get attention?

[Peter Fitness]

There's no doubt that many manufactures do not provide clear and concise instructions with their kits, and, as has been said, assume a certain level of expertise by the builder. I am currently building a Billing "Nordkap", which I think is an excellent kit, but the instructions are somewhat vague. If I had not had experience scratch building a number of boats, I would have been struggling. However, to be fair to Billing, they do say some previous experience is advisable to successfully build this particular model. Despite that statement, I believe the instructions could have been much better, which would surely lead to more sales.
Perhaps Colin Bishop could apply for a job as instruction writer  :). He has excellent journalistic skills, as anyone who has read any of his excellent magazine articles will know. 

Peter.

[David_S]

Many of the problems with destructions of course, come from the fact that they were origionally written in a different language, Japanese, Chinese, Italian etc.

They may have been quite satisfactory in their mother language, but much will be lost in translation!
Many translators truly have no idea what it is they are translating, and make no real atempt to make them even remotly comprehensable.

More work should be done in that area, me thinks.

I teach translation at a university and my partner (why isn't there a handy English word for 'avovaimo', meaning woman you live with but are not married to?) is a translator, so I can agree to some extent, but you should see the appallingly written material she is often given to work from. It is often obvious that the original writer was verging on being functionally illiterate.

[Roger in France]

Writing instructions for anything is a skilled occupation. Just try a little exercise writing down the detailed steps to show someone how to make, say, a cup of coffee assuming they have never seen it done or done it before!

Sadly some manufacturers think writing instructions can be done by anyone and they are presented much as an afterthought.

The problem of translation is a very real one. I have marvelled at some of the instructions on products from the far east which are entirely pictograms, they are very skilfully done, in many cases.

There is also the reverse of the problem referred to by this thread. If the instructions are over elaborate then some modellers will feel patronised!

Roger in France.

[Colin Bishop]

Perhaps Colin Bishop could apply for a job as instruction writer 

Thanks Peter.  Trouble is that by the time I'd finished building the thing the manufacturer would have long gone out of business! But you are right, I am surprised that people who do the kit reviews for the magazines do not seem to be approached to do this sort of work. It's false economy really. If you buy a kit with really good instructions you are much more likely to end up with a model to be proud of and equally more likely to go back to the same manufacturer for another one.

The kit I'm intermittently building at the moment also has dreadful instructions and inconsistent plans. For £350 or so, which is a typical kit price, I could easily rewrite them in intelligible form. Starting from scratch would obviously take a bit longer as it's usually (but not always) easier to edit somebody else's work than conjure up your own. You do have to have a knack for this sort of writing and in some ways it's not dissimilar to computer programming as both require a logical sequence of statements to get the desired result.

Colin

[Martin (Admin)]

Trouble is that by the time I'd finished building the thing the manufacturer would have long gone out of business!

Colin and Martin - model boat builders - cousins in spirit! 

[das boot]

Hmm...you guys should try building subs.

My USS Bluback was such a ba***rd to build that in the end Ramesh(wheelerdealer)had to come to my rescue and sort the bl**dy thing out for me. OK, plenty of backup from Steve in the States, but no written instructions whatsoever, no idea of how to get 'part A' attached to 'part B' with 'part C' added as well. Same with U-33...I could have done with something in black and white when tackling the linkages for the X-tail rudders. Again, plenty of backup online from Steve, but the Americans are on a different time scale to us, so you have to wait for twenty fours hours or so to find out which is 'part bl***y C'!!!

My USS Dragonfish which is on the slipway now is a modded Revell Gato, it's being converted to a post war Guppy boat, and I'm totally on my own with it...I have to work out how to make 'parts A,B and C', then fathom out how to attach them, then work out how to make them work together.

But we all enjoy a challenge, don't we lads? Lads?

Lads?. Don't we.....?


Lads?


Rich

[sheerline]

Designing and producing a kit is an engineering skill, writing instructions is a literary skill which a lot of designers/engineers do not always posess. When I started producing model submarine kits the instructions I inhereted with the boats I built were basic but useable but I used to get a lot of calls from clients asking for more detailed info. It became apparent that although I understood all there was to know about the construction, the customer did not posess the same level of skill and knowledge and indeed some of them had never built a model of anything, let alone a submarine!
As a rolling programme I re-wrote the instruction sheets and generally improved them based on the queries from clients as I want people to enjoy their model from start to finish and ease of construction is vital in this area.
Researching, designing and producing the Type2D German coastal submarine was a mountain to climb and took about two and a half years with lots of headaches and wringing of hands and at the end of the process I was confronted with a kit with something like 40 mouldings. It was my intention to make a kit which anyone could build and to that end I set about producing very comprehensive instructions. Given that complete modelling novices may wish to build this boat led to an instruction manual which had to be very detailed and comrehensive as I had to put myself in the same mindset as a raw beginner to modelling. This is the secret of producing instruction manuals but it can lead to lenghty and detailed explanations which skilled modellers may deem superfluous. As there is a degree of soldering to be done, I even had to include instructions on how to solder as a heck of a lot of modellers do not posess such skills.
All in all, the manual runs to 84 pages which is a large manual and it took me about two and a half months of solid slog at the computer, writing, scrapping and re-writing many sections in order to get it right. The end result is that build queries from clients are rare but when I do get calls they are usually praise for the model AND the instructions!
It is extremely important to get this area of kits right as the instructions are of equal importance to the kit itself. There is nothing worse than lousy instructions with anything and if poor instructions result in a newcommer making a 'pigs ear' of his first boat it can put him off modelling for life .
Chris

[Martin (Admin)]

I have a Sheerline kit on my slipway at the moment.

Don't tell Chris but the instructions are quite good, very conversation! 
.... Could do with few more diagrams / photos though.

[RipSlider]

An example of what people are saying re: instructions being difficult.
For a job, I design computer systems and have a team of guys who work for me. One of the chaps who works for me is a technical writer, which is just a fancy word for saying "the lady who writes the instructions" but there is a bit more to it than just that.

When I first set up the team, I thought this would be an easy role to fill, but it has been the hardest of any of them. In the course of three years, I've had 5 technical writers, all with supposedly good backgrounds on their CV's, but the first 4 were, to be frank, useless. For a while I just put it down to general stupidity, but then I had a go myself, and found it exceptionally difficult. It would seem that some people just can't write good instructions, and other people can. And even if you instinctively can, it still takes a lot of practise.

I have found that if I seperate my tech writer from the rest of the project, results get better. That way, they haven't been involved in the "nuts and bolts" of the project while it was being designed and built, and so when they come to write instructions, they ask the same questions, and want to know the same things as someone who has just picked up the instruction manual and they don't subconciously assume knowledge becuase they have been involved with something for months.

I have a feeling though, that most places which product boat kits don't have the luxury of employing someone just to write instructions. i wonder though if they couldn't find time to dish the instructions out to friends and see what they think.


Steve

[sheerline]

Hi Martin, let me know what boat you have, it could be an early one from the dark days and as I said, I have done a lot to improve on the original instructions and I have  completely re-written most of them. If I can assist you with any of this, I will....it is what I am here for... subs should collect limpets or pondweed...not dust!
Ripslider, you are quite correct in what you say but for me personally, I am head cook and bottle washer here so I had to put myself in a complete novices position when I wrote all my stuff up. It works ok so long as you have the ability to swap roles but I soon learned that writing manuals is a special skill and one which I hope I have now successfully aquired. I still get other people to proof read them though and thats where my wife comes in very handy.   
I found it very intense and stimulating and it certainly stretches your spelling and grammer... an area where I always have room for improvement!

[Reade Models]

My comments are not aimed at any manufacturer in particular...

The blame for unclear and poorly worded instructions lies fairly and squarely at the door of the kit manufacturer.  It SHOULD be a simple task for a manufacturer to put his thoughts and ideas into writing to convey his message in a clear and concise manner.  Few can however.

I write technical papers as part of what I do for a living, and every time that I do write one, having first put my own initial thoughts on paper, then re-visit that which I've written and ask myself "I know that I understand what I'm trying to say, but will everybody else who reads it as well"?  Almost all of the work that I produce is subject to my own subsequent extensive re-writing or revision.

The standards of written and spoken English in the UK are frankly appalling.  The use of correct grammar and spelling seem to be a forgotten art and are now considered to be unimportant.  You only have to read the posts on this Forum for confirmation of that fact.

Of course there are some less able than others, and allowances must be made when appropriate.  I do however firmly believe that any modeller, having paid his good money is fully entitled to clear and unambiguous instructions with his kit.  If a manufacturer isn't capable of producing these himself, he should pass the task to somebody who can.

Malc

 

[ronkh]

Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!

Take no notice Ron, Brian is always banging on like this, he just likes to wind people up.

DickyD,

Brian certainly did just that! After a couple of really naff weeks, a rollocking of sorts from a consultant yesterday and other things going on, it did not take much to "tip" me.
I shouldn't take it to heart but you see my point?
Back to the thread though; there are brilliant kits out there with poor, almost non-existent instructions and some with the most terrible parts that need to be replaced, usually at extra cost. Wood to be replaced, fittings etc, etc, but have very clear, concise instructions. Sometimes with photos included.
I also think that part of the problem could be that some of these poorly put together packages are of an older date and have been on the shelve a while and that this is not made clear to the buyer. The kit/package/instruction is old but the only thing changed is the price tag which has gone up/been altered to compere with similar, newer models and to reflect todays prices. Old for new so to speak. I may be wrong but!

Ron.

[Bryan Young]

Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!

Take no notice Ron, Brian is always banging on like this, he just likes to wind people up.

DickyD,

Brian certainly did just that! After a couple of really naff weeks, a rollocking of sorts from a consultant yesterday and other things going on, it did not take much to "tip" me.
I shouldn't take it to heart but you see my point?
Back to the thread though; there are brilliant kits out there with poor, almost non-existent instructions and some with the most terrible parts that need to be replaced, usually at extra cost. Wood to be replaced, fittings etc, etc, but have very clear, concise instructions. Sometimes with photos included.
I also think that part of the problem could be that some of these poorly put together packages are of an older date and have been on the shelve a while and that this is not made clear to the buyer. The kit/package/instruction is old but the only thing changed is the price tag which has gone up/been altered to compere with similar, newer models and to reflect todays prices. Old for new so to speak. I may be wrong but!

Ron.

Are we reconciled again? Hope so. Appreciate your high pressure job. Just go on and beat the "F"s.
On a similar but unrelated note....a few of the "newspapers" are reporting that Lewis is not the best liked guy in the pits. He seems to come across as an OK bloke. Bitchy, jealous or something else?

[das boot]

Ron...you wrong?   Never...you can't be wrong?   My hero...admitting he was wrong?  ::)

No way...only team owners of red cars ever do that. (in private, of course....where nobody can hear them)


Rich

[das boot]

"I tolda you we shoulda never have leta thata Shomucker leavea the teama..."

The private thoughts of Luca de Whatsisface....


Rich

[Colin Bishop]

Can we get back on Topic please? If you want to discuss F1 there is another thread available.

Colin

[das boot]

Humble and grovelling apologies Colin...my fault.


Rich   

[Colin Bishop]

No, don't think so. It's easy for things to go off at a tangent. Just the Moderator's job to get things back in line - sometimes! 

[kiwimodeller]

The other side of the coin that does not seem to have been mentioned is that different folks have different ways of reading and learning so maybe there needs to be three versions of all instructions, one for smart "xxxxx", one for people who have never built before and one for those of us with some experience and enough memory left to remember some of how we did it last time I remember the tutor who taught us to be teachers in an Adult Teaching Certificate course explaining that there are three ways of learning - visual, auditory and kinesthetic (watching, listening or doing). I wont go in to all the details but his way of explaining has always stuck with me :-

Some of you will learn by watching me   

Some of you will learn by listening to me  :angel:

The rest of you will just have to pee on the electric fence !   

Final point - isnt this problem just what we have forums for ???

[Reade Models]

Final point - isn't this problem just what we have forums for ???

I agree absolutely - and I believe that this Forum is serving us all very well in that respect.  It is after all a microcosm of life itself - Mayhem!

Malc

[barryfoote]

Final point - isn't this problem just what we have forums for ???

I agree absolutely - and I believe that this Forum is serving us all very well in that respect.  It is after all a microcosm of life itself - Mayhem!

Malc

Beautifully put Malc.....

[Bunkerbarge]

I think there are some very relevent points raised here and I have three sets of kit instructions in my garage at the moment, a Mount Fleet Ben Ain, A Slipways Envoy and a Caldercraft Joffre and all refer to models that I would not recommend for a beginner.

The trouble is of course that the small manufacturers do not have the resorces to be able to test, evaluate and rewrite instruction sets to ensure that they are suitable for all skill levels.  Even the big manufacturers sometimes get this wrong and they do have the suitable resources available.  As Bluebird rightly points out it is one of the most difficult things to do to create a set of instructions to build something from the point of view of someone who does not have access to your own thoughts and levels of knowledge.  Without a doubt instructions should be put together by an amateur who has never seen the kit before but of course the small manufacturers just cannot afford the time or expense involved with such a luxury.

At the end of the day then where does that leave us?  Well I think we can only suggest to beginners that they start with a kit from a larger manufacturer who should have put together the best set of instructions but, probably more importantly, when we do identify faults or shorcomings in instruction sheets created by smaller manufacturers we pass these shortcomings on to them and hope that they take them on board and edit thier instructions regularly.  In this day and age of computer generated instruction sheets and the absence of the print shop in the equation it should be a relatively easy thing for any of them to do.

So let's make sure that we always communicate any faults or improvements we come across back to the manufacturer and if they they fail to respond they only have them selves to blame when they are on the recieving end of further critisism.

[Colin Bishop]

I agree that there is an issue about just what level of knowledge to assume when writing instructions but some manufacturers do provide general purpose "how to do things" booklets which can be used by less experienced builders and ignored by the more practised ones. A short booklist wouldn't come amiss too. Once you get beyond basic plastic kits you are entering the realm of craftmanship to a greater or lesser extent and it's not unreasonable to expect people to take a bit of effort to broaden their knowledge base. For the more complex models I wonder how much it would cost to stick one of the more popular books into the box. There are several good ones on constructing and fitting out R/C Boats which would save trying to explain it all again in detail in the instructions. Just a thought anyway.

Colin

[ronkh]

Bryan Young.