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[wideawake]

Hi

Thanks for that info.   It does seem as if your cross-pondian friend had a very nasty experience.  I have no direct experience of Futaba equipment in use.   As I said, my kit is a Spektrum DX6.  I have been researching 2.4GHz generally recently though.   I have heard that the Spektrum sets MAY have issues with their fail-safe when an ESC is used, hence my comment on the use of an external fail-safe unit.   

WRT use in boats -  to quote from the DX6 page of their website “Boats and ‘bots - The DX6 is ideally suited for both boats and robots as well as ultralight planes and helicopters but remember with boats, keep the aerials above the water and for robots use the dedicated ‘bot’ receiver SPM6000BR, which incorporates programmable fail-safes on all channels”.   Given that the DX6i and DX5e have twice the built-in redundancy of the DX6, I canot see that the same comments would not apply to them as well.

However experience is more valuable than anything!

BTW without getting too technical, Futaba uses frequency hopping but Spektrum doesn't.   Spektrum DSM locks on to two vacant channels and transmits on them simultaneously.  Intereference protection is provided by the addition (TX) and then subtraction (RX) of pseudo-random noise  to the signal.   DSM2 still uses two channels but doubles the receive capability.

Cheers

Guy

I have no view on which system is technically more robust.

[martno1fan]

Hi guy your right spektrum doesnt hop it locks onto one of two channels but for some reason they just dont seem to work well on water consistantly at least in a boat at speed.Might be ok in a slow boat i dont know ?,i know guys flying planes off water using it just fine so maybe been off the water to some extent helps there.Actually the guy with the cat i talked about is from the uk,i forget exactly which unit he used.The fasst system uses the hopping and that seems to work flawlessly in all uses be it ground ,air or water.I think airtronics have now got a new 2.4 system that channel hops and that works well on water from what ive heard.You seem more technically minded than me all i know is from experience with the fasst it works and that spektrum from what ive been told and read has issues.Maybe an email to them might clear a few things up?.
Mart
ps ill find out which radio caused the glitch for you when i speak to my mate.the radio runs flawless in his trucks just glitched in his boats.Hes still using it now but in a truck.

[PkBoo]

Hmmm, I just got a 2.4Ghz Spektrum DX5e last week cause I was having some probs with a Robbe BL ESC with my FM radio and it seem to work just fine even with the antenna´s under the deck. It´s a quite speedy boat (not measured yet!) and the radio worked flawlessly from the git go. I did run it into a concrete embankment, I was lucky not to have so much damage, but that was my own fault. The controls where the other way around to what I am used to and I got that gut wrenching four letter word with a scream out The boat has a bumper now Let´s see if we have no probs in the long run as I intend to order the receivers for my other boats as well. The sub can have one of the FM´s Boo

[martno1fan]

Good luck to you i will never use spektrum in a boat even spektrum themselves wont endorse its use in a boat ,especially petrol powred and ive asked them ,any delareship that sells them for use in boats in my opinion is been very misleading.Far too many people have lost $$$$ using them in expensive boats for me to ever risk it,and why bother when futabba fasst works flawlessly.
Mart

[omra85]

With high speed boats using surface drive, there is usually a large "rooster-tail" of water being thrown up behind the boat. Now, as we know, 2.4GHz does not transmit through water. So it follows that at some time when racing in close proximity to the rear of another boat, your receiver aerial may be shielded by that spray. The closer to the "blocking" boat's transom you get, the more possibility of the occurence, due to the density of the spray being greater.
This would be almost unnoticable as the "blocked" boat would be either overtaking or being overtaken, both of which happen fairly swiftly.  That is - unless both boats were of an equal speed but even then, the "blocking" would only last seconds as the "unblocked " boat would turn onto another part of the course.
I don't know whether this has actually happened as the odds against all elements being in place at the same time must be VERY small ie your boat being passed/passing another boat with the widest, densest part of its roostertail directly in line between your transmitter aerial and your receiver box!
Even IF my theory is correct, I believe the odds to be sufficiently small that I have just bought the Futaba FC7 in 2.4GHz - so here's hoping 
Of course, this would only effect boats in close proximity to a boat throwing up a large roostertail (and travelling similar speeds), so a scale boat should never have this problem - if anyone's throwing up roostertails, they shouldn't be THAT close to your boat anyway   
I imagine that there is more chance of metal blocking the signal when using a large internal exhaust pipe alongside the radio box, but as I use "over radio box" exhausts, it wouldn't effect me anyway.

Danny
OMRA85

[martno1fan]

Thats a good point Danny ,but one thing fasst has over the spektrum is the channel hopping feature thats why it doesnt seem to suffer signal losses anywhere like the spektrum does on water.They all use it in the states in racing where very few use spektrum due to the problems mentioned b4.Spectrum locks onto one of two channels  whereas fasst doesnt so the chances of glitches with fasst is minimal,never say never but so far ive not heard of any issues with it unlike spektrum.By the way i have no antenna on my boats the two small 4" antenna wires are inside the box and ive never had a problem with range to date,just keep them as near to 90% as i can and it works really well.
Mart

[andyn]

And so begins the same constant moanings about modern technology that WORKS PERFECTLY WELL that is leading me to cancel membership to the Ivinghoe yahoogroup....

A little reminder, I have 7 cars and 3 planes running on my Spektrum DX6i. NO PROBLEMS
Bill had his makara running out on Llanberis this year, taking it almost on the other side of a mile wide lake. NO PROBLEMS

The technology is absolutely fine, and as for the rooster tails idea, that was pointless even being mentioned.

And radio aerials should always run out of the box, you are just asking for trouble with that one.

Set it up right, and it will work flawlessly from the day you buy it to the day you drop it in the lake.

Andy (peeved off about the constant putting down of 2.4gig equipment - have you guessed yet?)

[martno1fan]

Im not putting 2.4 equipment down far from it what do you think futaba fasst is?,spektrum is crap in a boat i know 3 people in the uk who have tried it and all fialed in petrol boats.There are hundreds in the states maybe thousands.Ill stick to fasst thanks and ohh in the box is fine thats how i and most guys i know run the twin antenna fast receivers never a glitch nor issue with range so ill continue with it cheers  .By the way Andy if i buy a spektrum and it doesnt work are you going to refund me the money seeing as your so confident it works ?,that Bill has one that works is good for him  but for everyone that works theres half a dozen that dont so for me its not worth it,my mate tried two diff ones same problems with both,ran fine for ten mins then that was it out of controll boat one crashed badly as it had built in failsafe second didnt crash.Andy cars are not boats nor are planes ,ring spektrum and ask them what they say about its use in fast boats.
Mart

[martno1fan]

Danny i cant find the radio you mentioned is it the 7c? if so its fasst so you wont have any issues on water at all.You might however want to read this ,mines the 6ex and was worried when i first bought it but mine turned out to be fine thank god .
Mart
http://2.4gigahertz.com/techsupport/service-advisory-tm7-7c-6ex.html

[OMK]

Of the two major players in the battle for 2.4GHz supremacy, regarding the issue of Spread-Spectrum versus FASST technoligies, it seems kinda strange that nobody has mentioned the actual build quality of their particular transmitters. Nobody likes to hear that their chosen radio is a duffer, and will defend it to the hilt - regardless if it IS a duffer. So rather than choose radio XYZ just because the guy in the store told you it's better than an ABC radio, it's probably far better if you could take a peek at the innards of a Spektrum Tx AND a Futaba Tx, because what you will find is a HUGE difference in quality.
For instance, the next time you remove the rear cover in order to, say, tweak the stick tension, while you're there take a good gander at what you're looking at. Then compare what you're looking at with the build quality of a rival Tx. Both major players are charging approx' the same for their wares, yet the superior build of one particular brand leaves the other miles behind..... which perhaps should be far a more important factor to consider when choosing a particular radio, rather than issues regarding the type of modulation they each employ. It shouldn't need the brain power of Einstein to figger out that quality = reliability.

[Bill D203]

Here goes.
I run a 26cc petrol Makara OMRA type boat. I started out by using a Sanwa Gemini 40 MHz set up. I very quickly found that there was /is a big dead spot at the top end of my home water. The fail safe would always come in at the same spot. I tried a different receiver/ failsafe/ Transmiter,all   which failed at the same spot. The problem came to a head at the Bryan Bach OMRA meet when i had traveled 3 hour to get there on a Sunday morning and the boat stopped on the same spot on the course which was laid out. What a wast of time. So after taking advise from many OMRA D class boat owner moved on to Futaba 2.4 Ghz set up. After all this years D class chapion didn't win all them races with a radio set up that dose not work 110%.
My next outing was to the Mayhem weekend at Llanberis. There I found loads of water to play on. I decided to push the boat out to a distance which would be over what i normally want to race with OMRA races. NOT A PROB. It was under control all the way.
Now i understand that there has been alot   set up probes with this new type of radio system, but mine seems to be ruining just fine. I got a second receiver to put in my next boat as I am very happy with its prefromance so far.
So to sum up 40 MHz 100% trouble
                    2.4 Hz 100% GOOD
This is only my findings so far, but I am a happy boater now, it was worth my money changing.

[omra85]

The technology is absolutely fine, and as for the rooster tails idea, that was pointless even being mentioned.

Andy, while you were racing your cars, I was competing against guys who had bought the "new" Spektrum sets and were having control problems. I also know one or two have been having problems recently so I'm pleased that you are able to dismiss my unproven idea out of hand!

And radio aerials should always run out of the box, you are just asking for trouble with that one.

Unless you are using a radio box made of metal, I can't see why they would have to be outside. Far better to try and maintain the watertightness of the radio box with less holes, I'd have thought!

There will always be people who are hesitant about shelling out loads of money on a radio that THEY have no experience with - I was one of them - I just hope I'm OK with mine.

PMK
I wouldn't dare 'poke about' with my new set, so I'll bow to your superior knowledge - IF you're talking about the Futaba being better  
If not, then Mrs 85's Christmas present might prove a handfull .....  

Danny

[Bill D203]

Just sat in the bath & came up with the ONLY thing I'm not happy about. I can't get out of Ripmax the bits of plastic you need to make the throttle return to the center position. Dispute my local hobby shop trying every week to get the bits NO LUCK, BAD SHOW Ripmax.

[OMK]

Superior knowledge, my aunt fanny.
But panic ye not - even the manual says it's okay to take a delve. You might want adjust the stick tension at some point, or maybe add/remove the ratchet from the throttle stick. So you're in no danger of invalidating anything. Go on, take a butcher's. Then take a butcher's inside the OTHER one.

Judging from what you're saying, I think it's safe to say that you're gonna enjoy this year's Crimbo pressie.

[OMK]

"I can't get out of Ripmax the bits of plastic you need to make the throttle return to..."

Ripmax schnipmax. R.I.P max.
Try here...

http://www.modelhelicopters.co.uk/acatalog/m_index.php

[jules64]

Bill D203

Try Inwoods

http://www.inwoodmodels.co.uk/pages/index.php  Go to Futaba and transmitters.

RAT16EXSRK Ref : SPRING RETURN KIT FOR 6 EX (8053)

Not sure if it is in stock as website doesn't confirm it.

Best wishes
Jules64

[Bill D203]

Thanks Juels for the info. However the site will not take orders under £5.00 It's £1.90 total.  Thanks for trying i will have to buy something eles to make it up to £5.00

[omra85]

Bill
Why do you want to be able to use half throttle - you've never needed it before 

Danny

[wideawake]

Just a thought.  Why not swap over the self- centring components from the other stick vertical axis?

Guy

[Bill D203]

It's not true Danny It's the bit between stop and we havn't got flat out yet Enjoy using Futaba 2.4Ghz. I am.
Guy. thanks for that i will have a look in the morning.

[martno1fan]

Here goes.
I run a 26cc petrol Makara OMRA type boat. I started out by using a Sanwa Gemini 40 MHz set up. I very quickly found that there was /is a big dead spot at the top end of my home water. The fail safe would always come in at the same spot. I tried a different receiver/ failsafe/ Transmiter,all   which failed at the same spot. The problem came to a head at the Bryan Bach OMRA meet when i had traveled 3 hour to get there on a Sunday morning and the boat stopped on the same spot on the course which was laid out. What a wast of time. So after taking advise from many OMRA D class boat owner moved on to Futaba 2.4 Ghz set up. After all this years D class chapion didn't win all them races with a radio set up that dose not work 110%.
My next outing was to the Mayhem weekend at Llanberis. There I found loads of water to play on. I decided to push the boat out to a distance which would be over what i normally want to race with OMRA races. NOT A PROB. It was under control all the way.
Now i understand that there has been alot   set up probes with this new type of radio system, but mine seems to be ruining just fine. I got a second receiver to put in my next boat as I am very happy with its prefromance so far.
So to sum up 40 MHz 100% trouble
                    2.4 Hz 100% GOOD
This is only my findings so far, but I am a happy boater now, it was worth my money changing.

Good post Bill thanks for sharing which set are you using? i use the futaba 6ex fasst radio and its awesome and both antennas are in the box.There seems some confusion by some here about fasst and spektrum yes they are both 2.4 but thats where the similaritys end FASST is far superior due to the channel hopping feature.As ive said fasst = no issues on water spektrum on the other hand  ,even they wont advocate its use on water email them and ask.Incidently sanwa now have a new 2.4 setup that is similar to the fasst setup and it also works well on water.

Mart

[Bill D203]

Hi DI hi
Just to tell you happy boatersknow I have had to put up with a week away from home this week. The weather here is a cool 23 deg c . the sea look just right for running my Makara. Just have to miss the folks swimming  O where am i ?? In southern Cyprus . Still back to Heathrow terminal 5 on Friday night. Can you all do your best to warm things up a bit for my return Let hpoe T5 DON"T lose my bags for me.
Cheers for now. be back on line Saturday.

[andyn]

Dont worry Bill, we're keeping it nice and cold for your return, and as a cherry on the top there's a pretty nasty fluey type virus going around (that I have) for you to catch when you get back...

[martno1fan]

Hi guys due to the recent arguments about using Spektrum radios on water i decided to contact them again and ask them,heres what they replied about it.
 Hi Mart.
Thankyou for your email.If you are using Spektrum technology we don't recomend this for water applications,what can happen is the signal can be blocked by the reflection of the water .
I hope you find this information usefull,if you have any more questions please reply to this email or call me on this number *******.
 Thanks
Paul L.
Product Support Team Member
Horizon Hobby Distributors

 ps i asume as i contacted spektrum direct and horizon replied they must be one and the same or linked in some way.heres the link i used to contact them
http://www.spektrumrc.com/

[wideawake]

Hi Mart

Thanks for that info, which I assume has come from horizon Hobbies in the US.   I have no reason to disbelieve it but nor do I think it's possible to ignore the fact that hundreds of boaters are using Spektrum kit with no problems, as are hundreds of others using Futaba gear.   Horizon Hobbies UK still make the following comment

"Boats and ‘bots’
The DX6 is ideally suited for both boats and robots as well as ultralight planes and helicopters but remember with boats keep the aerials above the water and for robots use the dedicated ‘bot’ receiver SPM6000BR, which incorporates programmable fail-safes on all channels."

at the bottom of page URL http://www.horizonhobby.co.uk/aeroonline/e6spektrum/e6dx6/e6dx6.html


While I think it's useful and important to identify and discuss the pro's and con's of all sorts of equipment, I don't think it's helpful to trash any particular manufacturer when, as I say, many people's personal experience is entirely positive.   

My own view is that Spektrum kit is entirely satisfactory for most waterbased applicatiions at the ranges generally used.  This is based on practical use and also specific tests.   Like you, if I'd had a bad experience resulting in a damaged boat, I'd be wary of repeating the experiment whatever manufacturer was involved.

If you accept the above, then IMHO the DX5e represents the most economical way into 2.4GHz for Mr average boater.  I have never suggested it's use in high speed ic boats because I have no personal experience of them.

Finally I have no intention of getting into an argument with anyone.  I merely offer a view (as you do) based on my own experience.

Cheers

Guy