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Author Topic: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof  (Read 14898 times)

John W E

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2008, 11:41:28 AM »

hi there one and all

hey I knew I had one somewhere - and I am busy looking through all of this paperwork which I have hoarded for too long  :}   I am sure that I have the components list as well.   This is the circuit diagram for the Electronize speed controller that uses the ZN409 chip.   It may be of assistance to some - I'll be back.

FLJ - do you want a fair exchange - and no robbery   :D  if I send you about 70 instructions for various ACTions components along with pricelists which go back to 1999 for some ACTion kits - would you send me ........ erm a ...... erm  %%  cos I do have to get shot of some of my hoarded paperwork. Howway man, I still have the Maplins stuff dating back to 1980's...price lists......old museum springs to mind.....  :D :D :D

aye
John e
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Seaspray

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2008, 11:55:16 AM »

Wish it had voltages and the chip pin I.D.s marked up

As I said earlier this year I thought there would have been more SMT components used on the newer ones

Never mind a  new Mtronics cost only a score

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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2008, 11:59:41 AM »

(Answers please on the reverse of a twenty quid note).

Welcome back to Electronville, O Great and Worshipful Dude!
You wouldn't know what to do with a twenty pound note if you ever got one (like a dog chasing after a car) .............. ok2
FLJ
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John W E

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2008, 12:13:04 PM »

 :-))
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OMK

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2008, 12:24:51 PM »

Bluebird, if I were in your shoes I'd hang on to all your paperwork. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll be kicking your own bum if you bung it in the bin. It's like gold dust. Look after it, stash it under your pillow or something, treat it like a good woman, because you can guarantee you're gonna need it some day!

AndyGH, if you're earwigging, you might heed what Malc' F is saying. One of FLJ's NDP6060L's would indeed do the trick. It's pin-for-pin compatible with your BUZ11, albeit with a slightly superior specification, so all you have to do is pop it into place on the PCB (assuming, of course, you remember which way round the metal tab should be facing).
And welcome to the "We-love-ZN409's" club.
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OMK

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2008, 12:41:22 PM »

Bluebird:

Ooops!... apology time. I just re-read your penultimate and realise you weren't planning on binning that paperwork after all.
Yeah, do a deal with with FLJ and scroung as many MOSFETs as you can.

Me, I would know what to do if'n I had 20.00. I'd buy twenty-quid's-worth of NDP6060L's and stash 'em in me junque-box.
Just yesterday I managed to pop THREE of 'em (bummer!), all because I got too lazy to reach for me anti-static mat.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2008, 01:22:32 PM »

Looking at Bluebird's diagram, if you look at the junction of R4 and R7 with a meter (preferably a non-digital one because there is a dwell angle involved) you should see a variation in voltage in sympathy with the position of the stick - the further the travel, the bigger the voltage.   A digital meter takes a sample many times a second, and displays the result - with a voltage switching up and down rapidly this can result in a display full of 888s, a meter with a coil and needle evens this out and gives a better idea.
If there is a variation, it means that the output transistor is being told to switch on and off, but isn't, and can be considered broken.
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andygh

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2008, 01:53:18 PM »

Well thanks guys, looks like I'm sorted transistor wise (though I might be back if I manage to make it go bang again FLJ, thanks for your offer), hopefully it will be job done when the new one is fitted.
I think several beers are owed, you're a very helpful lot on here. I've learned a few of things & I hope I can pass on a bit of assistance to someone else in the future

Thanks again fellas  :-))

Oh, and I'll have to dig out me Dads old Avo, I know I've seen it somewhere around here in the last 6 months  {:-{

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Seaspray

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2008, 05:17:51 PM »

Keep hold of the  AVO mate, its worth its weight in gold.  :-))

Batteries might be a little flat if stored for a wee while.

Best instrument for fault finding.  :-))  :-)) I think

Seaspray
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Roger in France

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2008, 05:34:53 PM »

One post removed from this thread after agreement with the originator.

Roger in France
Moderator.
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andygh

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2008, 05:57:26 PM »

There won't be any batteries in the Avo, the Old Fella was fairly careful about stuff like that  :-)). It's a small portable bakelite one in a leather case, I don't s'pose it's been calibrated since about 1968.
I'm desperately trying to remember where it is now, I don't fancy emptying out the shed in this weather  :'(
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John W E

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2008, 06:06:06 PM »

Oh the days of the old ZN409 - how simple life was - if you have a look at the circuit diagram there were only twelve resistors there - and the equivalent jobby Electronize do today - there are thirty-two resistors - quite a lot more work. 

Andy, I am sure FLJ sells a good little volt meter for about six quids...you know the bloke ... the gent ACTionman.....

aye
john
bluebird
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andygh

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2008, 09:05:51 PM »

Thanks Bluebird but I have a couple of Fluke metres that are in use every day. As Malcolm said, an analogue meter is best for the test he suggested which is why I was waffling on about my Avo
Anyhow, I can't find the Avo so gave the ESC a prod with my digital jobbie, I get a reading (albeit a wobbly one) of .006v around the deadband rising to .034v at the end of each throw, does that sound about right?
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Seaspray

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2008, 08:26:32 AM »

Any way mate don't let it go !!!

Seaspray
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wombat

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2008, 10:40:15 AM »

...which brings us nicely around to the final question of the day.........

What was the root cause of the BUZ11 going blooie in the first place?


(Answers please on the reverse of a twenty quid note).

Remember - the root cause of any problem is the most fundamental one that you can apply a countermeasure to!

No sign of any damage to the FET or the tracks, appears to work until under any sort of load, no matter how small. My suspicion is that there has been some sort of electromigration within the FET causing the internal conductors to thin to the point of failure. There is just enough leakage to swing a DVM (10MR input resistance) but nothing else. Basically the thing has died of old-age - the stress of life just got too much for it and it failed gracefully

Wom
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Sandy Calder

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2008, 11:32:43 AM »

Hi Wombat,
That will not fit on the back of a twenty pound note.
You are confusing two different posts. The BUZ11 shattered and was soldered in as a replacement in somebody elses unit.Andy's one had the original BUK555.

Look at the gate plateau of a BUZ11.It is unsuitable for 5 volt logic level drive.
I put it in different terms after PMK posed the question but the "illigitimate" thing was removed due to foul language.
Regards
Sandy Calder

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malcolmfrary

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2008, 12:29:32 PM »

Quote
Anyhow, I can't find the Avo so gave the ESC a prod with my digital jobbie, I get a reading (albeit a wobbly one) of .006v around the deadband rising to .034v at the end of each throw, does that sound about right?
Given that DVMs can be out and out liars with rapidly changing waveforms, it COULD be about right.  All my transistor learning and practice happened with bipolar types (learning on germanium, practice on silicon) - due to the lead time of technology changes I escaped FETs, so I have to rely on younger, better looking people for expert opinion on them.
Some time and several computers ago, I had some freebie software that used the computer sound card as an input for low voltage signals that could be displayed on screen as a scope display.  Not only that, but it was a dual beam storage one.  Limited to audio frequency, but it was free.
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Sandy Calder

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2008, 01:43:18 PM »

If you hanker after one of those sound card scopes you can now nick your kid's nintendo and find the plug in scope converter.
I was setting up a boat next to my desktop pc last night and the servos went ape poop until I moved away.
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wombat

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2008, 07:56:22 PM »

Hi Wombat,
That will not fit on the back of a twenty pound note.
You are confusing two different posts. The BUZ11 shattered and was soldered in as a replacement in somebody elses unit.Andy's one had the original BUK555.

Look at the gate plateau of a BUZ11.It is unsuitable for 5 volt logic level drive.
I put it in different terms after PMK posed the question but the *Naughty Word* thing was removed due to foul language.
Regards
Sandy Calder

OK so I was looking at the BUK55. And whether it will fit on a 20 pound note depends on the size of your writing - I reckon I could easily get a hundred words on one.

PMK

The failure on the shattered BUZ11 - clearly excessive current. My first thought is either a short on the output or the connections have been reversed and the internal protection diode has become forward biassed. This I suspect is the likeliest cause of failure. I agree the threshold voltage of the BUZ11 is a bit high for the application - but the typical value at 2V means that you will get away with it most of the time. That said, it would mean that the likliest problem in normal use is that you couldn't get enough current into the motor because the channel on the FET had saturated -  the motor would tend to be a bit sluggish, especially on acceleration. You could get overheating because of the high channel resistance, but I suspect that a lack of motor speed would be the main symptom

Wom
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Sandy Calder

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wombat

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2008, 09:33:59 PM »

Yes, it is a standard set of output characteristics.....and?
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Sandy Calder

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2008, 09:41:22 PM »

Wombat.
If you can fit 100 words on the back of a twenty then what is wrong with your eyesight?
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wombat

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2008, 09:49:57 PM »

Absolutely nothing. I can see exactly what is on the figure (my eyesight is good enough to see it is actually on page 3)

Now what is your point?
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Sandy Calder

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2008, 10:02:33 PM »

You lot in the God squad have a very strange sense of humour.
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wombat

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Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2008, 11:08:40 PM »

Is that a non-sequitur or a stream of consciousness?

And do you know Barry Park?
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