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Author Topic: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc  (Read 10043 times)

Garabaldy

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Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« on: December 17, 2008, 10:31:32 AM »

Hi all.  Since Fireboat 39 is nearly finished (i will post pictures up on the other thread when i get a chance to sail) i have decided to start my next build this weekend.

Recieved the plans from traplet the other day and im hoping to get started this weekend.  The plans are at a scale of 1/66 but i intend on scaling up today.  Cant make my mind up between 1/50 or 1/36.  With scale 1/36 i get a nice big model about 1700 long but im worred about transporting issues but i do i like bigger models.  Even at scale 1/50 it comes out around 1200 but my hands dont do so well on the fiddly details!

I plan to use a digitiser to scale up the hull lines.  The digitiser uses autocad so i can choose whatever scale i want really.  I will just use a normal photocopier to do the rest of the scaling.  Hopefully this will work.  I just cant be bothered going to the local photocopying shops and have some turkey mess my drawings up...

I am going to install as much working features as i can into the hull.  2 bow thrusters, 1 stern thruster, water cannons, tank steering, maybe a working winch, lights and possibly more if i can think of anything.  I have about 100 or so decent photographs gathered up on my pc to help with the detail.  I got some cracking photographs from sea mariner (posts on mayhem) which show lots of deck detail so big thianks to him!  The rest have just been found from trawling the internet.  Theres a few good pictures of models on the OSV society website too. 

I will post some pictures of the progress as soon as there is any!

Thanks,

G
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 10:20:34 AM »

im sure the person who builtthat posts on here from time to time.  going by my terrible memory their names is manxman on here?

I have started making my templates for the frames but thats all.  I was too hungover all weekend to do anything so i'l catch up this week haha.  Im going buy a load of 2 x 10mm planks and some 2mm birch ply tonight so hopefully il get started on the planking just after xmas.

Sounds like a good xmas present!

Give me a shout when your going for a sail and il bring ny fireboat along for its 2nd sailing :-))


Thanks,


G
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hama

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 10:35:24 AM »

Hi!
Don't know if you've seen this, but they have a GRP hull, wheelhouse and other fittings for a vessel called Pacific Buccaneer. Even though you will scratchbuild it could be used for reference? I am really looking forward to follow your build here, it is a very interesting boat. Good luck! www.kagelmacher-modellbau.de
Hama
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 11:44:29 AM »

That looks good hama.  I wonder how much postage would be from there to here in the uk?  I really enjoy scratch building plus i wanted something around 6ft long but the hull on that site still looks good!  The pictures will be usefull for sure.

Thanks,


G
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2009, 09:40:46 PM »

I've still not finished cutting out the frames!!!  Its been minus 5 out in the shed alot recently so progress is very slow.  Il post some pics up as soon as i have the hull mounted on the building board.

Just incase you thought id given up %%
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 09:02:55 PM »

Dan you are too kind!

You have a PM.

Thanks,


Gary
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Ron1

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 10:34:23 PM »

I posted 64 photos of Pacific Banner on The Tug Foram. ron1
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 09:09:26 PM »

Way hey some pics! :-)
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 09:15:08 PM »

Remember my post about cold weather glue?  Well im sure you'l notice the white stuff all over some of the hull!  hugely annoying......  Whats your thoughts on the planking at the bow all ending at the same frame?  Cant wait to get the hull all sanded down and smoothed off.  Its looking a little untidy in those pics!
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dougal99

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 09:39:00 PM »

Looking good Gary.

Are you worried about the planks all finishing on the same frame? It's how I plan to plank the hull of Anglian Sovereign, when I get into the workshop. Too B****y cold at the moment(-1 or 2), so I'm working on the superstructure - very slowly- in the study.  How else would you envisage doing the planking other than the way you've done it?

Cheers

Doug
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2009, 10:13:18 PM »

Cheers lads.  It is very cold glueing weather.  Can you see the hair dryer in pic number 1?  Thats my solution.  I just leave it there blowing a warm breeze over the hull when its too cold for the glue.  It works too but i just wish i had thought of it before i started.  Never mind.

I kind of wish i did my planking more like the pic below.  I suppose it doesnt matter as im going to be reinforcing the hull with GRP.

Looking forward to getting it sailing!!  When the weathers better we'l get a sail at duthie park dan.

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John W E

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 09:41:52 PM »

Hi there Gary

By what a nice monster you are building there.  I take my hat off to you my friend, for attempting such a size of build.

If I may make comment on the planking – please tell me that the panels you have put in are panels of plywood and not veneer.   The reason being, you would find veneer sheets would distort and twist – also they tend to split as well.   The other thing is where you have planked from the bow, and all the planking finishes on one frame, although I have seen several models planked like this, namely Martin Mayhem’s model of the Bismark.   It goes against all I was taught about Planking in both real boats and models.

In theory, when you join 2 planks together, on a real boat you use a joint called a ‘scarf’ joint where the 2 ends of the planks are chamfered and mate into each other – but, this is sometimes impractical in a model.   So, what we normally do is butt the 2 ends together and put a backing strip of planking behind the 2 planks.   Normally, the length of the backing plank is equal to the spacing of the frames.   Where you have ended the planks all on one frame, this will cause a ‘weak’ spot – putting all the stress on one frame.   Normally, we stagger the joints, normally one frame either side of the joint.   We have no joints next to each other.

What you will have to do is when you finish planking and filling this hull; cover the exterior of the hull with at least one ounce of chopped strand matting with resin.  That rubbed down to surface finish you require and on the inside of the hull you will possibly have to put 2 layers of one ounce chopped strand matting with resin and hardener.   The reason for this is the amount of weight you are going to have to put in to this hull to bring it down to its waterline – the other alternative to putting fibre glass matting on the outside of the hull, is to re-plank over the top diagonally with say; half inch wide x 1/16 thick plywood strips from keel to deck level.  This then could be rubbed down and given a coating of either epoxy resin with tissue matt or polyester resin.

The reason we will have to ‘beef up’ the inside of the hull is that I cannot see if you have added any internal stringers. 

I hope this is of some help to you.  KEEP ON WITH THE GOOD BUILDING and Don’t be put off because you may encounter some problems.

Last but not least and very important before you attempt any filling or fibreglass work, you are going to have to allow your hull to dry out – as you are building in a damp area and the timber which you are building the hull with will have absorbed the dampness – and therefore increasing the moisture content of your timber.   This is what you do not want in your hull as it may cause delaminating and other types of problems.   Putting a hair dryer over it for a couple of hours will not cure the damp/moisture content problem.  Try and ‘sneak’  :-)) :-)) ok2 your hull into the warm house for a couple of weeks – this will allow it to properly dry out.   Then do your fibre glassing.

The last picture you posted of the vessel which is planked - all I have on my screen is an X - so you could you post the pic again.

Aye
John e
bluebird


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Ron1

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 10:37:51 PM »

I do my joins like this. the builds looking good.
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 11:01:14 PM »

Hi John,

Shes a beast.....

Anyway....The panels are 2mm thick lime.  Im hoping your not going to tell me this is veneer but i have a funny feeling you are......If so what should i do?  I have been intending on beefing up the entire inside of the hull with fibre glass matting to get a good strenght in the hull.  This was my plan for the frame where all the planks end - reinforce with matt and resin.  Ok so i need to cover the entire exterior of the hull with chopped strand matting with resin?  What exactly is chopped strand matting?  I do have some sheets of matt out in the shed.  Will that be any use?  Im assuming i should cover the entire inside of the hull with 2 layers of chopped strand matting?

At the moment i think id prefer to go down the fibreglass route but once i understand it a little better i'l weigh up the cost issues.  The diagonal planking does sound tempting and im guessing it will make the hull very strong?  Do you have a link for the said plywood strips so i can have a look?  Even if i do choose to do the diagonal planking would it still be sensible to beef up the inside of the hull with matt resin etc?

The hair dryer was only to stop the frost getting to the glue as its been really cold here recently......  As for getting the hull in the house.....  I will see what i can do :}
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 11:56:08 PM »

ok then i should have conversed with my good friend google before i asked all the questions but never mind.

Ive been thinking about this over a big cup of hot tea at 2320.  I have decided that going down the diagonal planking route seems like the best option.  I just dont think i could face sanding a 6ft hull covered in mat.  Ive actually been quite interested in the diagonal planking so now seems like a good time to give it a go!  Ok so i assume i'm going to have to cut my own planks?  Will this https://www.mantuamodel.co.uk/Wood/Birch_Plywood/_88005__Birch_plywood_1_5mm_276.html be suitable?  I could make up some sort of plank cutting jig to make it a bit easier too.  A rough calculation tells me im going to need approx 1.5 square metres of planks.  Thats approx 6 sheets of the before mentiond plywood.  So thats £41.70.  Hmm not so bad?

Im on this website now http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/300gm_CSM.html  So i know what you mean by 1 ounce chopped strand matt although im not clever enough at this hour (or any hour haha) to work out the metric equivilent :embarrassed:  So im thinking to beef up the inside of the hull 3.3 square metres would be sufficient to do 2 layers covering the entire inside of the hull. £4.26 - Thats pretty good when you compare it to the price of the stuff you buy from halfords!  Now for the resin.  I have 3 full 500ml tins of davids fastlgas resin (the stuff from halfords)  Can i use this?  Id prefer to as i already have it.  Picking the tin up id say it weighs in around 0.75kg(wild guess really) so that times 3 is 2.25kg which should be enough as i do not think i will need the full 3.3 square metres of matt.  Hopefully i will have enough resin left over to do the outside of the hull with fibreglass tissue which i already have.

So £50 seems a reasonable enough figure to come up with for getting the hull to a point where im ready to cut it off the building board.  I was trying to keep the cost of this hull down but as ive only spent around £50 on it so far Im happy enough to pay another £50.  I think much obsession over cost is important these days with the economy crisis and what not.  Sorry to bore you with it.

Is this when some one points out i have made a school boy maths error in my sums?

How important is it to get the boat inside the house to dry out?

What do you guys think.  Does my scheme sound plausable?

Ok this is a different area of the build i want to mention and thats the sealing of the deck.  Please see the attached picture for what i plan to do.  Obviously you can only do this on a larger build without sacrificing too much space but its just so simple and easy!

its 0014 now so its time to have one last cup of tea and say good night to the forum.

Thanks for all the advice, tips and encouragement.  Its hugely valued and appreciated.

PS Ron thats a good idea with the joints.  Il be sure to remember that in the futre.


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John W E

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2009, 07:08:29 PM »

Hi there Gary

Okay then we will try this one  :-))

How important is it to get your hull inside the house to dry out? EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!! 

The reason for this is, when the wood absorbs the timber it naturally swells slightly – so, at the state your hull is at the present time, sitting outside – the planks will all naturally be swollen.   You have found the evidence, where the glue is turning white, that is a sure indication of:

a)   Dampness in the air

b)   Freezing temperatures/or temperatures very low

You have temporarily cured this by using a hair dryer and the heat has dried the glue out, but, it hasn’t removed the dampness from the timber.  So, if we ignore the dampness in the timber and we carry on and seal the hull with a fibreglass layer (on either side of the Planking) you have in actual fact trapped the dampness inside the timber.  So, as the hull warms up, with the outside temperatures warming up, this moisture will try to leave the timber.   The moisture will find it a lot easier to pass through the timber than it would find it to pass through the polyester resin – so that it becomes trapped between the polyester resin, gradually soaking into the polyester resin over a period of time; and therefore breaking the bond between the timber and the resin.   You will find areas where the timber will rot underneath the resin and the resin will turn to mush.   This is not to be confused with OSMOSIS – although it has very similar symptoms.   So, this is why it is essential that we remove as much dampness out of the timber as possible.   The next thing we have to tackle is that you have used a 2mm thick veneer on the hull in places.  -   Ideally, it would be preferable to remove these and replace them with either planking/individual planks – but rather than trying to remove them and destroy part of the hull LEAVE THEM IN PLACE but when the time comes to either plank over the top of them diagonally, or glass over the top; we must ‘rough’ the surface up really well – use a Stanley knife blade so you deep marks into them NOT ALL THE WAY THROUGH THOUGH this will allow the glue or glass fibre resin to have a very good key on these pieces of wood.

FIBRE GLASS RESIN

You have obviously worked out the amount of matting you require to cover your hull; the calculate the amount of resin you will require – you need to know the exact weight of all of your matting combined, say, for arguments sake the total weight of matting you are going to use in your hull was say 2½ lb – the amount of resin required for that would be 5 lb of resin in weight – i.e. for every lb of matting – you need 2 lb of resin – or, 2½ lb - .
DIAGONALLY PLANK THE HULL

I would suggest 0.8 mm thick plywood – by about 12 mm wide strips – cut across grain.  In other words, the outside grain of the plywood goes across the width of the plank; not along the length.  This is because you will find cutting this way, it gives the plywood a lot more flexibility for bending around curves.

Even if you do diagonally plank the outside which WILL increase the strength, you will still have to re-enforce the inside with fibre glass matting and resin – but, you would be able to use either 2-3 coats of resin with tissue matt on the outside or a couple of coats of resin on the outside to finish your hull off.   The only thing is with diagonal planking on the outside, is that you have to be precise in laying the planks and avoid any gaps between the planks.

Hope this is of some help and has given you some more food for thought.

Aye
John e
Bluebird.

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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 10:19:17 PM »

alot of food for thought.  I will  make some efforts and get the hull indoors.  It would be preferible to get the hull off the building board before i get it indoors so my question is.  If i glass the outside of the hull then cut the hull off the board then bring the hull in the house for a couple of weeks.  Will this dry the hull out sufficiently?

I'l report back to the forum once i figure out what im going to do.


cheers

G
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 08:30:57 PM »

currently the hull is sitting in the spare bedroom drying out.  I have completed the planking and its had a good sand down.  i will begin filling then glassing in a week and a half.  I ordered some sheets of styrene today so when they arrive i will start working on the superstructure.

i sat the hull next to fireboat 39 and the poor fireboat was totally dwarfed by the beast! :-))

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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 09:16:01 PM »

deffo dan.  Will arange a sail at duthie park some time.  Saying that its going to be a few months yet before this ones ready for the water!

Also it wont fit in the bath {-)
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 07:40:40 PM »

cut off the building board :}

1 layer of fibreglass matt and polyester resin on the out side.  2 layers of fibreglass matt and resin on the inside of the hull.  Away to start making the hull smoothe tonight.

Have had a small start on the superstructure too.  Not much but its a start!

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hama

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 08:56:44 PM »

Ehh, how big is that? Are you building the real one? Looks great! How did you do those window frames? They look fantastic. Will follow this with great interest!
Hama
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 10:28:26 PM »

Hama,

Last time i checked she was 1800mm in length and is going to displace around 60kg of water(i think???)

Thanks for your compliments about the windows.  I cut the square holes then i cut 4 individual frames. i cut them neat so i could dry fit them tightly into the window hole then apply the glue.  I am no technical author which is why a attached a wee picture to help.

progress is slow - i started cutting the frames for the hull around christmas but i have managed to get alot done the past few days.

I have hit a snag and ask the forum for some help.  the rear frames shown on the plan are not quite the right shape so i need to do some jiggery pokey but do not know the best/easiest way to go about it. If you have alook at this link http://picasaweb.google.fr/philmar130/PacificBANNER# half way down the page you will see whats being done with the roller/stern area.  My french is not good enough to work out exactly what this guy is doing :embarrassed:
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hama

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 07:12:54 PM »

Hello Gary!
Thank you for that very informative picture. The end result looks great. As for the stern, I don't know french either and I don't think I can help you on this one but do want to say something as I'm first! Can you build it up with two balsa blocks and sand them to shape on the stern, then cover with fibreglass. You have good pictures on his site and perhaps you can get them close enough without drawings? Hope someone else can come to your rescue!
Keep up the good work!
Hama.
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Ron1

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2009, 11:39:05 PM »

www.north-cheshire-marine.org.uk 

go to on the slipway, you will see part of my son,s build and lots of photo,s.  Ron1
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Garabaldy

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Re: Pacific Blade/Banner/Buccaneer etc
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2009, 08:02:27 PM »

thanks Ron1.  I was looking at that earlier.  It looks like the plans are correct going by your suns pictures.  The french captions are probably miss leading me.....  I think i will do something similar as to what your son has don Ron1.  As for constructing the roller i was just going to shape some circular discs and plank them with lime strips, sand down and coat with resin.

3.5 metre thats quite a size.  What scale is it?
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