Topic: Flags (Read 11905 times)

RickF · « **on:** January 03, 2009, 02:25:35 pm »

Hi Guys,

I need some help on flags. Having never been afloat, my only connection with flags was as an RAF NCO, hoisting and lowering the ensign. It was a long time ago and the memory's going anyway, but I seem to remember that the lanyard which attached the flag to the hoist had a loop at the top and a toggle at the bottom - or was it the other way around? I do remember getting it hooked on upside down once!

However my question is this. Is there a "rule" regarding the length of the lanyard which I have indicated in red below? I'm sure there must be at least one old "bunting *Naughty Word*" out there who knows?

Thanks

Rick

PS. I see my attempt to use naval slang has fallen foul of the Forum Police - but you'll know what I meant

Ghost in the shell · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2009, 02:35:50 pm »

i would have thaught the lanyard would be as close to the flag as possible so that the flags fly close the halyard

RickF · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:05:41 pm »

There has to be some length to it so that when a signal is hoisted by connecting flags together, there are spaces between adjacent flags.

Ref your pm - the word was "To**er"!

Rick

Ghost in the shell · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:18:33 pm »

do these pics help.

the flags i presume would be of a given size, and so by the pic of the warship signals, you may be able to work out the spacing

Bryan Young · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2009, 06:33:44 pm »

The flags are attached to the halyard with "Inglefield Clips". The flag itself has a similar clip attached to the top of the flag and another at the bottom of a length of halyard (about 4') integral to the flag. So when one flag is attached to another the top of the lower flag connects to the bottom end of the 4' length hanging out of the bottom of the upper one. Still with me? The upper clip has a swivel and the bottom one doesn't. When no flags are attached the 2 ends of the main halyard are simply clipped together and secured to whatever. There is no excuse for flying a flag upside down...but it happens, and then you get an upside down flag flying at half mast. Must admit to being guilty myself.....in younger days....and suffered the resultant bollocking. BY.

OMK · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2009, 07:18:57 pm »

Did you say b********g?

Dude, I had you down as an educated sort. Never thought of you as the sort of bloke who would use gutter lingo so openly. It's only the vocabularly-challenged bozos like I who have to resort to that sort of caper.

Ah!... so you ARE cool after all, then.

(I'm laughing my norks off at your post because it conjures up images of Bishop, F-F-French Roger, et all, wetting their pants but not having the balls to tell you that you've been a naughty boy).

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2009, 09:54:56 pm »

Reminds me of a girl I once knew who confused rowlocks with "xxxxx".....

Colin

RickF · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2009, 11:53:22 pm »

Thanks Bryan - a succinct answer as always. However.... as I said I was in the RAF, and I'm sure we didn't have anything as technical as "Inglefield Clips" on our ensigns - just loops and toggles. The period I'm interested in is late 19th century,so would they have had these fancy clips, or loops and toggles?

Colin - I knew a couple of old oars like that, too!

Rick

Bryan Young · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2009, 04:38:02 pm »

Chances are that the toggle and loops were used...certainly easier to make for a model, but the clips go a long way towards stopping the whole hoist getting wrapped up like washing in a gale. Personally, if I'm making a flag hoist (at 1:48) I just glue the flags to a common halyard. To pevent tangling (especially on the jack and ensign staff) I let the entire staff rotate in its socket. Also, signal flags are much larger than is generally realised...about 6' square. I suppose they have to be if you want them seen at anything over shouting distance, but I find that flying true scale flag signals (signal letters etc.) a distraction and so make the flags smaller...except for the ensign....and an "in-port" ensign is a lot smaller than a "sea-going" one. But you are entering a whole new world if you want to get into "flag etiquette"...and it's quite boring. Good luck with your toggles and loops. Perhaps an elderly ladies underwear maker can give you some tips (elderly running both ways). BY.

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2009, 10:47:52 pm »

As I understand my flags the toggle is at the top with the loop at the bottom (with about 1ft of halyard--depending on size of flag)
Of course I could be talking rowlocks

Bryan Young · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2009, 08:04:30 pm »

Quote from: PMK on January 04, 2009, 07:18:57 pm

Did you say b********g?

Dude, I had you down as an educated sort. Never thought of you as the sort of bloke who would use gutter lingo so openly. It's only the vocabularly-challenged bozos like I who have to resort to that sort of caper.

Ah!... so you ARE cool after all, then.

(I'm laughing my norks off at your post because it conjures up images of Bishop, F-F-French Roger, et all, wetting their pants but not having the balls to tell you that you've been a naughty boy).

Don't spend 40 years at sea without picking up a bit of the riper language my son. I can swear in 7 languages without the moderators knowing...but I won't, as I prefer to keep it all clean(ish). Ta for the post. BY.

RickF · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2009, 11:22:30 pm »

Thanks, Phil, that's basically all I was after - how long is that part of the halyard attached to the flag, so that when I space out a flag hoist it looks realistic. However, as there were several sizes of flag sets and ensigns available in the period I'm looking at - depending on the size and/or importance of the vessel flying them - I wondered if there was a simple formula, such as "halyard=2/3 flag".

Rick

Bryan Young · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2009, 05:00:21 pm »

Quote from: Steamboatphil on January 06, 2009, 10:47:52 pm

As I understand my flags the toggle is at the top with the loop at the bottom (with about 1ft of halyard--depending on size of flag)
Of course I could be talking rowlocks

Correct....but a lot more than 1' of halyard below.

Rex Hunt · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2009, 05:38:56 pm »

Isn't the toggle rope length from toggle to eye....normally twice the depth of the flag ?

Rex

RickF · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2009, 07:42:49 pm »

Not if you look at the flag hoists shown above, Rex.

Rick

MartinH-K · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2009, 07:30:21 pm »

In a similar vein...

Can someone tell me what the true size of a 2ndWW Battle ensign on a battlecruiser would have been (in feet and inches or even cms). I know about the 'breadths' bit so I can get that bit sorted but in order to scale properly at 1/35, I need to know what the original size was. Please... anyone?

nhp651 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 21, 2009, 09:20:51 pm »

one came up for sale about 7 years ago from the battleship Vanguard at Christies auction house in london, and i remember vividly as i could't belive how large it was.
the dims in the catalogue were 12' x 8' [ yes twelve feet by eight feet ]
i remember it also made 4 figures too.

Admhawk · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2009, 09:52:07 pm »

From photo evidence, the normal Ensign for a RN BB is 7.5 feet hoist by 15 feet fly. All RN flags are 1:2 ratio and the largest in inventory is a 12 X 24 foot monster. The battle flag would have been larger than the normal Ensign and other available sizes were 8x16, 9x18 and 10.5x21.

DickyD · « **Reply #18 on:** March 21, 2009, 10:01:45 pm »

My god Darren, still leading an interesting life then.

MartinH-K · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2009, 12:09:37 am »

That's really helpful and I thank you.

I can use what you've said but.... I don't suppose you would know the size of Hood's battle ensign would you? I tried the Hood association site but there's nothing on there about it.

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 22, 2009, 11:58:42 am »

No-one seems to have picked up Martin's use of the words:

Quote from: MartinH-K on March 21, 2009, 07:30:21 pm

2ndWW battlecruiser

and

Quote from: MartinH-K on March 21, 2009, 07:30:21 pm

1/35

...used in the same sentence.

Andy

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2009, 12:00:35 pm »

Ooops - sorry. It's "HMS Hood Martin".

Brain fade. I'm off for a lie-down.

Andy

MartinH-K · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2009, 01:39:45 pm »

Okaayyyy.... Now I'm confused. HMS Hood has been referred to variously as 'The Hood', The Mighty Hood, HMS Hood... so forgive me but I guess your point is slipping past me. The scale I'm building in is correct... 1/35. In order to have a battle ensign that is correct to scale, I need to know what size the original one was.

dreadnought72 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2009, 01:45:26 pm »

My apologies - it's "Martin's HMS Hood" ... not another Martin who is also building summat big at 1/35th.

If only MBM had an edit facility. I'd've corrected my initial posting. :-(

Andy

Roger in France · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:33:38 pm »

Andy,

There is an "Edit" facility but only for the first 30 minutes. We found this necessary to stop Members posting, then much later deleting or altering their post and denying they had! After that you can always ask a Moderator to edit your post for you.

Roger in France
Moderator

News:

Author Topic: Flags (Read 11905 times)

OMK

Rex Hunt

MartinH-K

nhp651

Admhawk

MartinH-K

MartinH-K

Roger in France