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Author Topic: What metal working lathe?  (Read 43733 times)

ian kennedy

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What metal working lathe?
« on: January 22, 2009, 05:42:20 pm »

Right chaps,

I would like to buy a new sensible priced decent quality lathe and i am interested in knowing what you fellow metal workers are using, how they shape up and if they are any good.......or not ! an honest view is very welcome.

The budget is quite tight as i also have to fund a new workshop building so i have no more than about £1000 which is about the maximum i can squander.

Thread cutting is not important but i would like a power feed, no trick electronics ie variable speed unless you say it's good and size wise up to about 500mm between centres with a decent swing over the bed.

Currently i have two machines a modified peatol/taig, with riser blocks, more powerfull motor with 2 speed switch and a compound slide also i have a small belt driven jewellers/watch makers lathe, all with indexable cutters, other random tooling and accessories.....these may well be sold at a later date.....to help increase the fund for a reccomended machine.....maybe?
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portside II

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 06:31:10 pm »

Ian , i have the conquest from chester tools and for just ove £300. for their price they aint bad ,or if you want one with a mill then the model B super for just over £800.
might be the way to go .
If you want to see my lathe next time your in goole give us a ring .
daz
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colin-stevens

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 06:38:20 pm »

depends on how big you want it. theres plenty of "mini laathes" out there. have you looked at second hand sites/dealers? as an apprentice i used a myford, hard to beat, and still used in engineering shops. my dad who was a precission engineer swears by them, in a good way.have a look through model engineer magazine.
have fun
colin
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ian kennedy

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 07:49:31 pm »

Hi Colin and Daz,

I have looked at the Myford 7 and super 7, maybe a bit to to retro for me and a decent machine and parts are not cheap !!

Daz, i don't think i will ever be back at Goole, as you may or may not know D.Allen and myself resigned !! We just were not into sailing around in circles, it's kind of mad when one of my boats is a b****y circle.....shame really as you have some good lads and excellent models there.... but seriously thanks for your kind offer of taking a peek at your machine and all the best for the future mate !

Ian
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Circlip

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 07:51:51 pm »

Have a look here   http://homeworkshop.org.uk/

   Regards   Ian.
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ian kennedy

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 07:58:45 pm »

Thanks Ian,

I already have this site bookmarked and check it quite often.

Cheers

Ian
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Bee

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 08:10:58 pm »

As you still have the workshop to build I assume no need to hurry. The Harrogate ME show is coming along soon where you will be able to get to try a range of sizes and makes. Probably save your bus fare and entry with a show deal too.
However if you don't need bling features like variable speed find a second hand one. 'Myford retro'  {-) lathes don't need microprocessor to make them operate so a 50 year old one is just as 'modern' as needed. Myford do hold their value so not such a good deal second hand. Look for a Boxford model A preferably not ex school and your grandson will still be using it long after you have been recycled.
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ian kennedy

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 08:33:54 pm »

Cheers Bee,

I will be at Harrogate MES, it's an annual trek for me, What i meant by retro was the Flash Gordon style look of the gear boxes on the Myford......i know they are superb quality machines, i was just wondering if many people have tried any of the chineeeeese machines sold under Chester, Warco etc?

Speaking to a proffesional manual and CNC engineer friend of mine, he said the chester type castings are made of cheese !! he has tried fitting DRO's to other customers machines and some of the castings were full of imperfections and pit holes and he had to heli coil them to get fixings to hold in them.

Ian
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omra85

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 09:11:05 pm »

Ian
It obviously depends on how much you're going to use it.
I struggled in vain for years with an ML7, trying to get a bit of accuracy into what was basically a worn out lathe.
It was bought off a "friend" and I spent many 'happy' hours adjusting it when what it needed was a complete overhaul - I just couldn't afford the ludicrous spares prices.  I got what I paid for it, which wasn't much, and bought a cheapy Chinese mini-lathe.
Now, bear in mind that I only use mine for the odd shaft or housing and other odds and ends, I couldn't be happier (without spending a load more).
Warco, Arco, Clarke, Chester - they're all Chinese but, until they wear out, they're bl**dy accurate!  The castings may be "cheese" and, no doubt, the headraces are made of rubber, but for what I need, mine's great.
You already appear to know what you're doing on the tooling side which I think is much more important.
How on earth can you turn, drill and polish all at the same speed??  I love just being able to twiddle the knob and set the speed just right.  It may lose a bit of torque at low revs but it's worth it.
If turning is your hobby, spend as much as you can on the equipment but if it's just a means to an end for a different hobby, spend only as much as you need, then you can squander invest the rest on your main hobby.
Danny
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Peter Fitness

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 09:35:46 pm »

My lathe is Chinese, sold here in Australia under the Hafco brand (Hare & Forbes, a large supplier to the engineering trade). It is accurate, and reasonably priced, mine cost the equivalent of 400 pounds UK. There is also a model available now with a quick change gear box for very little more. It weighs about 93 kg, and came with 3 and 4 jaw chucks, travelling steady, tool box, change gears and face plate.

Peter.
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SteamboatPhil

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 09:49:19 pm »

I have to say that Chester and Warco are fine and a good price (looks the same as your's Peter) and the advantage is thay do come with a few bits (chuck etc) so you would not have to spen a fortune on additions (fixed and travelling steadys) So worth having a close look at harrogate.
A second hand (good) myford would be over the £1000 mark and then you have to start adding on all the nice toys (having costed up mine which has all the whistles and bells, for insurance, I nearly fainted---thinking of selling it and buying a motor cruiser, a new house, new car new------well you get the picture   :-))
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tony23

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 09:55:41 pm »

Hi Ian,
         I have much experience in workshop equipment and am currently building a 5" loco I purchased a new lathe and milling machine last year at the Ally Pally Show and delved into every machine out there. Myford are expensive and I don't think you will find a good secondhand ML7 or Super7 for under £1500 then you will need all the attachments which are also expensive you could consider an ML10 a smaller machine but hard to come by as most people don't part with them so that will leave you to look at the Chinese ones. Chester http://www.chesteruk.net/ and Warco http://www.warco.co.uk/index.aspx are produced by the same factory in China but both have different levels of quality control. If you talk to most model engineers they will recommend Warco they are built to a closer tolerance and have a better finish Warco have a permanent guy in the factory inspecting machines and quality control all there machines come with a tolerance certificate.
I have a variable speed lathe again some people told me to keep away from them and to buy the manual lever type but talking with both Chester and Warco it's a myth about the circuit boards blowing and if your not sure what speed you need to run your work at you can then just turn up the dial.
What are you planning to turn if it's only small parts the small Chester or Warco will do fine I have owned a Chester Conquerer and it was a great little machine it will all depend on what your going to swing in the chuck and the length of the bed for long items.
The most used lathe I have is a little gem it's all British and I just love it for turning parts up to about 2" although it will turn bigger and that's a Cowells ME90 http://www.cowells.com/quote.htm these little lathes are the RollsRoyce of small lathes most clock makers use them and the feel when working with one is amazing. They are expensive but these will last a life time they will fit into a cupboard and work can be done on the kitchen table I have seen these on Ebay go between £300 and £500 with accessories I can post pictures of my work done on this little lathe although they have nothing to do with boats!
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ian kennedy

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 09:56:35 pm »

Hi Phil,

would you take a club 500, dolls house and an MGB GT dinky toy in exchange? {-) {-) {-)

Keep the advice comming lads, i'm getting ideas about who and what to look for at Harrogate in May !!

Cheers

Ian
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tony23

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 10:01:45 pm »

What you can do when you go to Harrogate is barter with Chester and Warco never pay the price on the machine I got a good sum off my machines last year as they don't want to loose the sale. You can also make an offer on the machine at the show as they do not want to take it back but you will so take an estate car  {-)
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omra85

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 10:05:59 pm »

What a lovely clean lathe Peter,
I was feeling guilty about the grubby state of mine then I realised - it's new - you've just unwrapped it - I can see the plastic  {-) {-)

Danny
 
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bogstandard

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 10:08:06 pm »

Having used many types of lathe in my years of engineering and model engineering, the choice of lathe is purely personal.

On the secondhand market, Boxord UD series always comes to the fore, rock solid, bomb proof and built to last, and can be purchased fairly reasonably for a basic machine.
The Myford has a vast following, you can get almost anything for it (if you have the cash), but is a bit dated in design, somewhere between 60's & 70's, and if purchased new, v-e-r-y expensive.

The flavour of the year, and one to definitely be considered within your budget are the SIEG C4 clones.

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/comet_variable_speed_lathe_450mm.htm

http://www.mini-lathe.com/m4/C4/c4.htm

These are taking the model engineers into realms they haven't had before for the low cost of these machines. Large variable constant torque motors, power feeds, including cross feed and very rigid build qualities.
I have an American friend who has just purchased one and he is raving over it, he can't believe he has got so much for so little.

I took the plunge last year and changed over to far eastern machinery, OK a little larger than you are looking at. Build quality is a bit rough in some places (no body filler used in these machines, as in the likes of expensive British machines), just square castings, but they are very accurate and easy to service or repair. I can make 100 parts, and they would all be within 0.001" tolerance of each other.

John
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Peter Fitness

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 12:17:24 am »

What a lovely clean lathe Peter,
I was feeling guilty about the grubby state of mine then I realised - it's new - you've just unwrapped it - I can see the plastic  {-) {-)

Not quite new, Danny, I've had it about 3 years.

And here was I thinking I was supposed to keep it clean  :-) , hence the plastic cover. Oh well, I'll just have to let it get dirty so it looks like a real one  {-)

Peter.
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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 05:18:54 pm »

Hi all
I started with a 2nd hand myford ml7 but the cost of the spare parts, things like a gearbox cost more than a new Chinese lathe so it had to go and a new Warco lathe was on its way.The Chinese lathes are getting better as time goes by, I looked at a friends axminster the same lathe just a different colour which he had been using for a year or so and when mine came it had a few improvements on it which he has made to his now. I'm very happy with mine.
spud
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ian kennedy

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 09:06:00 pm »

Thanks chaps,

There are so many to choose from, i went to look at a myford today......stupid money for a worn out and bodged machine.....It would seem that badge engineering is creeping into model engineering now, just because it was a myford Super 7 he thought he could ask top whack for it.........needless to say i walked away after i said it would cost about £400+ to make it good and accurate again.

I am looking at a 20+ year old boxford tomorrow and a new SIEG C4 on Tuesday, i will let you know if i have found the right machine, but keep the ideas comming please as a well known retail giant keeps saying Every little helps !

Thanks

Ian
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portside II

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 09:37:36 pm »

Thats the problem nowadays Ian , these people think they can ask full whack for the old school gear .
There was a myford 10 for sale up the road from me last year and at £700 i thought it was a bit steep but worth a look , this machine had been left out for god knows how long and then a liberal coat of red oxide applied to everything , the bed was pitted and the rest of it was rust under the paint , no motor or tools and the chuck would need serious attention . all in all it would need over a grand spending to get it running ,and thats if the bed could be ground .
Aparently this machine was mint before it was forgotten.
On the other hand if A.B.P. still want to sell it they have a 9 foot bed lathe in the old shipyard workshop 3 phase and tools ,
a bit big for me and heavy , about 3 tons no price .
daz
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Stavros

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2009, 09:39:43 pm »

Ian when I was doen at the Ali Pali show last wekend I dragged Steam Boat phil around to have a look at the Chester tools stand as I am also in the market for a new lathe,we had a look at this

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/conquest_lathe_super.htm

As Phil said to me you could easily build a steam engine with one of these,I wish I has digital thingy's on my tools slide,now what on earth he was implying lord only knows but hey you cant go wrong on the price



Stav
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ian kennedy

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2009, 09:56:11 pm »

Cheers Stav,

Chester machines are on my list for the Harrogate show in may, i believe they have demo machines so i may just try before i buy !!

Ian
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Martin13

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2009, 11:48:58 pm »

My lathe is Chinese, sold here in Australia under the Hafco brand (Hare & Forbes, a large supplier to the engineering trade). It is accurate, and reasonably priced, mine cost the equivalent of 400 pounds UK. There is also a model available now with a quick change gear box for very little more. It weighs about 93 kg, and came with 3 and 4 jaw chucks, travelling steady, tool box, change gears and face plate.

Peter.

Peter,

I'm after a lathe as well although probably not till mid year (tax refund). Can you tell me where you got yours from? Looks the go. I prefer not to spend over $1000 and have seen some pre loved units sell for in excess of that on eBay.
Your machine appears to do the job.
Any info would be appreciated including what you have turned and accuracy.
You can pm or email me if you like.

Martin du
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bogstandard

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2009, 06:10:15 am »

Just to give you an idea what to look for in your ideal lathe. This is only for people who want something a little larger than the mini-lathes.

Swing and power. If you want to always make small bits, great. But if you ever need to clean up a brake disc or drum or any other types of large swing jobs that the neighbours or friends bring along (a sure way of getting into good books and earning brownie points), having say a 4.5" swing (height over the bed) or above will come in handy, or a gap bed that will allow you to do such sizes close to the spindle. When you turn these large sizes or heavy cuts, you need power. Normally in the smaller lathe ranges, you should be looking at 3/4HP and above.

Normally bed length doesn't come into it, standard lengths will cope with most of what you do. Only if you want to do long items should you need to go for an extended bed range. The longer the bed, the less rigidity.

Spindle bore size. Get the largest one you can, the bigger the bore size, the more rigid the spindle will be, plus you can get larger jobs up the bore. 3 Morse Taper is really the smallest you should be looking for, below that, it will only have a small bore through the spindle.

A spindle speed change gearbox or variable speed is nice to have, but don't be put off by a belt and pulley system. They are usually quick and easy to change and as you gain experience, you will find you only use two or three of the range under normal conditions. The main downside is if you need to replace the belt. That usually means a complete head stripdown, but that can easily be avoided by fitting linked belts.

Quick change gearboxes for screwcutting. Don't buy a lathe just because it has a screwcutting gearbox. If it has one great, but don't be put off if it doesn't. You will find that you won't be swapping and changing screwcutting setups that often, so as long as it has the full set of gears, you set the machine up for fine feed cuts and only change the gears when you want to carry out single point threading. If you are only ever going to use taps and dies, you will most probably find you only change your feed speeds a couple of times a year, just for doing those special jobs.

A power cross feed is definitely a thing to have if you can get it. It turns a PITA job into a breeze, and the finish on the machining makes it worthwhile.

Fixed DRO's (digital readouts) are now starting to become very popular on the newer more expensive machines. Not the little readouts you get fitted near the handles, but the glass scale ones that have a dedicated display head. You can get setups to fit to larger machines, and there are now read heads that are very small and can be fitted to rather small machinery. Having DRO's takes you into the realms of super accuracy, where you can work easily to 0.0001" or even 0.00001" if you are a masochist.

This is mine that I have fitted



A bit over the top for most people, but I am into precision machining, and this allows it to be done quickly and repeatable.

On the casting side, you should be looking for bulk, big and beefy. The saddle should be the same. The more rigid and heavy the setup, the better the machine will cut.

For the tailstock, a camlock is almost mandatory nowadays, it allows the tailstock to be released or locked in seconds. Also, if you can, get a tailstock that allows for setover. This will allow you to do fairly long tapered parts. 2MT or 3MT is the standard sort of sizes nowadays, and that will allow you to have all sorts of tools to be fitted into it.

If you are going for a benchtop model, make sure you DO fit it to a rigid and flat benchtop. I would recommend at least a piece of kitchen worksurface. Don't under any circumstances use it if it has rubber feet underneath, get it firmly bolted down onto something flat.

I am just doing a repair to a mini lathe that had twisted over time that I suspect was caused by that error. The fault was picked up when I came to do a machining job on the bed.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=627.0

That does show that small lathes can easily 'bend'.

I hope that this has helped to make things a little clearer.



 John
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omra85

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Re: What metal working lathe?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2009, 11:32:59 am »

Great post John, and thanks for the link.  There is loads of on there to interest me as a 'casual' metal player (another name for an inept engineer)!
Danny  :-))
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